176 replies to this topic

[Nept]

So DerMax is an old friend from back a ways in Hawken.  We started speaking this morning, and I figured I'd post (with his permission, ofc) our Steam conversation since it ran through most of our concerns and disagreements on Hawken's potential direction.  It's a Steam conversation which I've edited slightly for legibility.  Will be editing this further with colours and links to the different discussion topics.

 

It's long, but I think it's worth reading.  It's a different forum then, well, the forums - one which enables us to respond quickly without diverging into massive text walls.  I think more things got done as a result.

 

4:25 AM - DerMax: https://community.pl...for-all/?p=4935

 

4:25 AM - OmniNept: Not looked at that recently.  I don't even want to consider removing AC, tbh - I think the game's too shallow and easy without it.  It's the corner play that kills things: the omniscient radar combined with remote detonation and heavy splash.  What happens is that you know exactly where your opponent is in most dueling scenarios, or have a very good idea.  AC allows players to circumvent that slightly by changing the height at which they emerge, without making them sitting ducks.

 

4:27 AM - DerMax: Right now, yes. But you should understand that at the time the devs arrive at the point when they have to decide what to do with the AC, they'll have changed many aspects of the game.

 

4:28 AM - OmniNept: Honestly, I hope they change nothing in terms of balance - Incin and perhaps some tech tweaks, but otherwise nothing.  A few minor tweaks, but this is not the time to be screwing with balance imo.

 

4:28 AM - DerMax: They probably will, though.

 

4:28 AM - OmniNept: Well, I sincerely hope they don't.  And I hope Josh sticks to his earlier assessment re: balance (that it was well-balanced).

4:28 AM - DerMax: Bahahaha.  It's gonna be fun.

 

4:28 AM - OmniNept:  I don't want the skill ceiling dropped lower than it already is.  If it goes too low, we're done - my guys, I mean.  You already have a game with remote detonation and near-constant radar.  You don't need to nerf maneuverability more.

 

4:29 AM - DerMax: There are many ways to raise the ceiling.

 

4:29 AM - OmniNept: Year, remove radar.  Remove remote detonation.  Then we'll talk about AC.

 

4:29 AM - DerMax: Remove or change how it works.

 

4:30 AM - OmniNept: Nah, has to go imo

 

4:30 AM - DerMax: Alter the fuel consumption logic.  Alter the heat management logic.  Remove the darn tech.
.
4:30 AM - OmniNept: Ugh, that heat discussion thing again.  I'm going to have to get Josh speaking with the competitive players before he gets into his head the idea that he's been talking to the majority.

 

4:30 AM - DerMax: Yeah.  Man, feels like Josh is becoming a toy in the hands of (at least) two competing factions xD.

 

4:31 AM - OmniNept: Yeah, that's what I'm worried about - that people are just trying to get ahold of him to trick him into doing what they want.  That post on Omega's thread made me facepalm pretty hard.

 

4:31 AM - DerMax: We should sort that out, definitely.

 

4:32 AM - OmniNept: I'd like him to get a good feel for the variety of skill levels in the game - and for the way that that shifts balance and playstyles - before he starts thinking balance changes.  As for remote detonation: link
4:32 AM - OmniNept: That's a skillful remote detonation mechanic.

 

4:32 AM - DerMax: True

 

4:33 AM - OmniNept: Clicking the button a second time is not.

 

4:33 AM - DerMax: Skillful but UT.

 

4:33 AM - OmniNept: Aye - and I'm not expecting UT. I just think that players should understand the true skill ceiling in Hawken, because it's really quite low.

4:34 AM - DerMax: Want an exorbitant skill ceiling?

 

4:34 AM - OmniNept: No, it'll never have that.

 

4:34 AM - DerMax: Go ahead and discuss Lumi's framework

 

4:34 AM - OmniNept: Link?

 

4:36 AM - DerMax: http://hawken.mirror...your-own-ideas/

4:36 AM - DerMax: The best idea for internals I have seen.  Quite old, too.

 

4:36 AM - OmniNept: You know, I would really just like to see them start pumping out some new maps, cosmetics, and a gametype or two.  I really don't want them to get bogged down in massive balance changes and risk them pulling a repeat [of Adhesive Studios]

4:36 AM - DerMax: From what I understand, they are months from that.  A lot of work to do before starting to pump out new content.
 

4:37 AM - OmniNept: Yeah, but maps are relatively simple.  Just hire a mapper to work on the side.  Once the backend stuff is resolved, blam - new maps.  IMO, maps go furthest in terms of making players feel as though new content is there.

4:37 AM - DerMax: But how do you create new maps if you don't know what mechanics will make into the new Hawken?  Maps should be designed with the game mechanics in mind.

 

4:38 AM - OmniNept: That's just it: I don't want them ######ng with that anymore.  I don't see things as massively imbalanced.  I think that they're more or less fine.  And we've run through (almost) 2 seasons of competition where - and this is coming from someone who has played a lot of competitive fps - the game played very well.

4:39 AM - DerMax: That I understand.  But everyone has their vision of "The Ideal Hawken," and everyone will try their best to convince Josh to go that direction.  What we need to do is agree on things before presenting them to Josh.  It is very difficult, but it must be done.  There will be many holy wars along the way.  Some people want Hawken to be a gritty, post-apocalyptic, closer-to-MWO game.  Some want it closer to UT.

 

4:41 AM - OmniNept: I say keep Hawken where it is now, roughly, and add actual content.  I don't know that I'll move from that position.

4:41 AM - DerMax: Then we're in trouble xD.  If noone wants to compromise, Josh will be really confused.

 

4:42 AM - OmniNept: Ah well, just a game - and one I like, certainly.  Wouldn't want to see lose it, to see it diminished in my eyes. And I certainly don't expect it to be UT.  I have UT4 and Toxikk for that now.  But I need a high skill ceiling in my games, and Hawken has finally come to a relatively good spot after having been through so many sweeping balance changes.

4:43 AM - DerMax: Hehe.  Read Lumi's framework then.

4:43 AM - OmniNept: Yeah, I will do.  Was that the link?

4:43 AM - DerMax: Yes.  But do you think if you just start pumping out new content, the game will boom?

4:44 AM - OmniNept: It's not going to boom either way.  I think it'll attract more users and do well with new maps, cosmetics, and a rebalanced/repurposed leveling and purchase system.  But it's never going to boom.  And I'd say that if people are thinking it will with sweeping balance changes, they're falling into the same trap that Meteor and Adhesive made for themselves.

4:45 AM - DerMax: Hm.  You might be right.  My point is that we need to compromise and not stick to our position no matter what.  Otherwise we won't progress.

4:47 AM - OmniNept: I won't stick to my position thoughtlessly, just because it's "my" position.  But I don't want to see Hawken's skill ceiling lowered, and I don't want to see the same mistakes made through massive rebalancing - not when I think (and that's my opinion, ofc) that the game's in a solid place and just lacking in content.  That's all.  I just don't want it to be fuzzy bunnyed up again because people think that doing this or that will make it boom.

 

4:48 AM - DerMax: What kind of content besides maps and game modes?

 

4:48 AM - OmniNept: I would love to see more maps, more cosmetics (for purchase) - like those unique frames we got sometimes.  Those were something.  I wouldn't focus on mechs at this point - new mechs, I mean.  I suppose if they're in the pipeline already and are somewhat balanced, it could be easy to bring them out.  But I really do think that maps and gametypes are the way to go.  Alongside cosmetics.  One of the reasons that people are complaining about Toxikk's release, for example, is that they have like 3 maps.  Pre-Alpha, ofc, and the point wasn't to release a complete game, but having more maps in play makes a massive difference in terms of that new content feel.

 

4:50 AM - DerMax: I have a strong negative opinion on the current UX (User Experience and User Interface.  Basically, the way the garage is designed). What do you think?

4:51 AM - OmniNept: Yeah, I think that could be better.  I take some of that for granted because I've been playing for so long, and it doesn't really concern me at this point - on a personal level, anyway.  But yeah, it's definitely not ideal.

 

4:51 AM - DerMax: I think it is amateur work.  Same goes for the reticles, to be honest.  Most of them are kinda useless.

 

4:52 AM - OmniNept: Yeah, I'd agree there.  Found one that I like, but took a bit.  They could've gone for some simpler ones.  And tighter ones especially. 

 

4:53 AM - DerMax: Yes.  There's much to be desired in that department.  So it's already not just "pumping out new content".  Some things need a redo.  The garage needs to be redesigned, the reticles rethought, the monetization system pondered over, etc.  Can't just start creating new content and think that the problems will go away on their own.  Because right now many new players think the game's p2w.

 

4:56 AM - OmniNept: I agree with that, but I don't think any of it necessitates balance shifts.

 

4:56 AM - DerMax: Yes.

 

4:57 AM - OmniNept:The monetization definitely needs a redo, and there are a lot of things that should be done re: progression.  I glossed over it a bit in that first post I made, but yeah, having internals or items unobtainable until higher levels and purchasing really increases the pay2win sense.

 

4:58 AM - DerMax: Yep.

 

4:58 AM - OmniNept: Could be handled by just letting new players choose their first item/internals after giving them a rundown, and then have a week or so to switch them if they like, without penalty.  And then after that they unlock the rest.  Something like that would work I think.

 

4:59 AM - DerMax: That's up to the devs. My point is that there are many things that must be done before pumping out new content.  Otherwise all that content will be in vain, to a degree.

 

5:00 AM - OmniNept: I agree with that.  But I think that in the meantime, you can have artists/mappers working on content so that you have a surplus of cosmetic items/maps when that backend stuff is finished.

5:01 AM - DerMax: Yeah, true.  Good idea.  Also, let's not make Josh a puppet in our hands.  We need to give the dev team the room to do what they have to do, and not press them too much into doing what we want.

 

5:01 AM - OmniNept: Yeah, I don't see him that way.  I'm just concerned that he'll not get a good overview of everything.  Mostly I just want him to hold off until he's gotten a full perspective on things.  Wait a month or two.

5:03 AM - DerMax: Yeah.

 

5:03 AM - OmniNept: Do the backend stuff.

 

5:03 AM - DerMax: Right.

 

5:03 AM - OmniNept: Maybe get an artist/mapper working on that stuff.  Maps can often be extended or compressed to account for changes in movement speed, for example.

 

5:03 AM - DerMax: I guess.  Though I'd argue that the game needs more maps like Origin.  And not fuzzy bunny like Bunker.  Or Last Eco.

5:04 AM - OmniNept: Yeah, although - and you wouldn't've seen this so much - but Bunker and Last Eco play quite well in comp.  Bunker's a total mess in pubs.

 

5:04 AM - DerMax: I know.  Just aesthetically, I want the virus.  I want Dystopia. This is my whim xD

5:05 AM - OmniNept: lol

Edited by Nept, 25 March 2015 - 05:17 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

Too much focus on the competitive "scene". Be careful how "competitive" you want this game be, go too far and you make the game less accessible than it already is. Hawken needs new players, not keeping a small % of quasi pro's happy. Hawken needs a balance of depth, and accessibility, please don't add so much depth that an average player can't have a good time anymore. Hawken really, desperately, needs more players.

[Houruck]

Year, remove radar.  Remove remote detonation.  Then we'll talk about AC.

The private servers actually featured mutators. For example you could turn off the radar for everyone. It goes without saying it made flanking quite easy. I still do not want them to remove the radar from the game because I think it is an essential part of HAWKEN.

[RedVan]

I liek nepts post, even though my quota has been reached :(

 

Too much focus on the competitive "scene". Be careful how "competitive" you want this game be, go too far and you make the game less accessible than it already is. Hawken needs new players, not keeping a small % of quasi pro's happy. Hawken needs a balance of depth, and accessibility, please don't add so much depth that an average player can't have a good time anymore. Hawken really, desperately, needs more players.

 

Being competitive doesn't really have anything to do with accessibility.  Many games are highly competitive and also highly accessible.  Usually, from what I've found at least, competition rises out of a well made game.  So if a game has competition, that means it's already very accessible.

 

The best way is to have a deep game with a good tutorial.  That keeps competitive players happy, while allowing new players to get involved too.  There is nothing competitive players want more than for there to be more teams in competition :).  You don't get more teams by alienating avg players.

[Superkamikazee]

Radar needs a nerfing. I don't want it removed but it needs a serious nerf, and get rid of the radar item all together. I use it, and it's super cheeseball. Remote detonation is cool, perhaps nerf that. Direct hit is max damage dealt with that weapon, remote detonation is much less, and even less based on distance of splash or something.

[DerMax]

Radar needs a nerfing. I don't want it removed but it needs a serious nerf, and get rid of the radar item all together. I use it, and it's super cheeseball. Remote detonation is cool, perhaps nerf that. Direct hit is max damage dealt with that weapon, remote detonation is much less, and even less based on distance of splash or something.

Yeah, basically make a direct hit deal 15% more damage, that'll do it.

[Dr_Freeze001]

All I'm thinking about during the more maps and more items is modabillity, community items and maps. I'm sure there are plenty of people willing to design and model items and maps and send the assets in to be implemented. 

 

If the devs do back-end stuff for 3 months, that's 3 months the community has to start creating content. Of course, nothing to compare to a professional (even tho there are very good artists and 3D modelers), but enough to give people something to do other than wait.

 

 

My point is: allow people do do what they can. You can't do everything by yourself. Devs can handle game systems, we can handle the community. 

 

 

 

Also, out of curiosity, how many maps are in the game yet not playable? Like the old tutorial/garage map, or any WIP's. How much work would it be lo oad them into the map exploration mode?

[shosca]

*sigh* please don't add or remove stuff willy nilly. I think balancewise the game is at a good spot except for a few outliers (incin+tech, radar scanner, etc..) which can be fixed with simple number changes. Other than that i agree with Nept that the game needs more content, maps and game modes etc.. (whatever happened to siege 2.0 for example..)

 

If you're planning on doing sweeping game mechanic changes, please, please provide a testing environment, something like hab, and actually listen to the comments given.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

I've been thinking about this myself.  I also worry that Josh might get the wrong idea and get misled.

 

 

Too much focus on the competitive "scene". Be careful how "competitive" you want this game be, go too far and you make the game less accessible than it already is. Hawken needs new players, not keeping a small % of quasi pro's happy. Hawken needs a balance of depth, and accessibility, please don't add so much depth that an average player can't have a good time anymore. Hawken really, desperately, needs more players.

 

Go too far and you get games like Strike Vector.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 25 March 2015 - 05:26 AM.

[Aregon]

I've been thinking about this myself. I also worry that Josh might get the wrong idea and get

If it makes you feel safer, is EU people will have a chat with him again this weekend, and most of what we say is logical, reasonable and not complete bollocks.

Most of it.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

If it makes you feel safer, is EU people will have a chat with him again this weekend, and most of what we say is logical, reasonable and not complete bollocks.

Most of it.

Dunno man, the 'Muricans might need a chat with him as well.

 

Either that or we have to get the two to agree on something.  EU and 'Muricans (I'm lead to believe at least) have different opinions on Air Compressor and a few other things.  The thing we do agree with is that *something* has to change-- and that both Tech and Incin need serious balancing.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 25 March 2015 - 05:33 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

I've been thinking about this myself.  I also worry that Josh might get the wrong idea and get misled.
 
 
 
Go too far and you get games like Strike Vector.

He's probably chatting with all these "god tier" players and forming an opinion based off that. God only knows what this game is going to look like a year from now...

How's Strike Vector doing? lol

[Aregon]

Dunno man, the 'Muricans might need a chat with him as well.

Either that or we have to get the two to agree on something. EU and 'Muricans (I'm lead to believe at least) have different opinions on Air Compressor and a few other things. The thing we do agree with is that *something* has to change-- and that both Tech and Incin need serious balancing.

The AC has proven and learnt us a lot what the one side thinks about the other. It has brought the worst out of many, and it is a debate I personally think is stupidly immature.

Edited by Aregon, 25 March 2015 - 05:38 AM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

He's probably chatting with all these "god tier" players and forming an opinion based off that. God only knows what this game is going to look like a year from now...

How's Strike Vector doing? lol

Badly, people left because the skill curve was exponential compared to games that are 'easy to learn, hard to master'.  Fun fact, did you guys know that Khang Le actually worked on the art on the game?

[StubbornPuppet]

Without taking any sides on any of the points, my inclination is towards providing player controlled server options.

 

If a player wants to start a server in which they can toggle or adjust options like "radar on/off", "enemy highlight on/off", "remote detonation on/off", "damage modifier 1-10", etc.  as well as control which map and game-mode is up next... even allow for players to shuffle teams before the match starts to create their own team balance.

 

There could be two server lists:  Standard and Custom.  A player would have the option of which to queue up in or browse and could see what the settings on a custom server were before joining.

 

Would that make everyone happy?

It'd make me happy and I sure think it would add a real sense of depth and variety to the game that would break up some of the stagnation.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 25 March 2015 - 06:01 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

And, by the way, can we stop presuming that CapnJosh is a pliable nincompoop who can be easily swayed and influenced by whoever he speaks to?  It's really unfair to his intelligence and integrity.

 

Since when can people not be capable of just listening politely and professionally to someone's opinion and then listening to another person's opinion and then having a discussion with themselves and arriving at their own, level-headed, balanced decision?

 

Give the guy some credit.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 25 March 2015 - 05:45 AM.

[Nept]

And, by the way, can we stop presuming that CapnJosh is a pliable nincompoop who can be easily swayed and influenced by whoever he speaks to?  It's really unfair to his intelligence and integrity.

 

Since when can people not be capable of just listening politely and professionally to someone's opinion and then listening to another person's opinion and then having a discussion with themselves and arriving at their own, level-headed, balanced decision?

 

Give the guy some credit.

It's not his listening that has me concerned.  It's the fact that certain player groups seem to be getting the idea through discussions with Josh that this or that sweeping balance change will or won't be implemented.  I've enjoyed how transparent he's been through many of the conversations and interviews, but I think it's premature to start thinking about balance issues - especially without having consulted the competitive scene, and especially given Adhesive's experience.

 

And I think that there's a world of difference between that concern and thinking that he's a "pliable nincompoop".

[StubbornPuppet]

^Cool.  I suppose I did make a bit of an unfair assumption myself with the words "pliable nincompoop".  Sorry.

I sure do like using both of those words though. :)

[Nept]

No worries, they're solid words!  Well, perhaps "pliable" isn't.

 

Get it?! Aaaaaaahhhh...Alright, I'm done

[Leonhardt]

I have agreed with Nept for quite some time that for the most part Hawken is in a great spot as far as balance is concerned. The very few things that are unbalanced have been unbalanced for a long time (radar, scanner, remote det) and two of those 3 things are universally available so they aren't big problems for how the game currently plays.

 

I have always felt that 3 changes would make the game play far better.

 

TOW and GL changes

 

First being that the TOW have its remote det removed in favor of higher direct hit damage and a SLIGHT increase in splash radius (please note by slight I mean VERY SMALL as it has more to do with the radius of the GL after the change than anything else). See below, but in effect I want the splash radius of the TOW to be about the same as the changed GL, but with a slightly higher scaling splash damage (more damage for splash because it has to hit a surface and its base damage is increased). *Note: I don't feel the TOW needs to increase in speed for this change and I only bring this up because I know a lot of older players might think that I am saying we should bring back oldschool TOW which I am not.

 

Second would be to slightly decrease the splash radius on the GL at present it can hit mechs with its splash about 1 dodge length away (using A class model) meaning that aiming it takes very little other than shooting where the mech was and pressing right mouse button for some free damage (decreasing the splash radius makes this far less effective without taking away a lot of the advantages of the weapon).

 

 

Radar Change

 

Last, but not least is the radar. It is my opinion that the radar should not pick up boosting mechs unless that mech has been seen by a teammate or self. On the current radar after boosting a target is removed from radar if they are 1.) not seen and 2.) not doing an action that causes radar to pick them up again. This function is essentially on a timer that takes those 2 factors into consideration before taking a target off of the radar. My only change proposed is to take boosting (perhaps just ground boosting if we want to go that route) and take it off of the list for check #2 in the above. So if the player is no longer seen after the timer then they are removed from radar and not added back for boosting (perhaps again boosting only on the ground).

 

Of the 3 changes the radar change is the biggest in my opinion as it opens up a very WIDE variety of options to all players and teams in both pub matches and competitive play as well as going a long way to making duels far more interesting. This change is not hard to implement (as far as I know, but I am not looking at the code) and testing would be minimal. Hell we could test it for them on private servers if they just gave us a command to change the radar to this function (VERY HAPPY TO DO THIS FOR YOU).

 

 

P.S. I forgot to mention that scanner should just be removed from the game if not completely reworked. That thing is beyond OP.

Edited by Leonhardt, 25 March 2015 - 06:08 AM.

[MomOw]

Great post to read and great feedback.

 

Before re-balancing stuff or adding content I think that a lot can be done with just some tweak to how servers work (I'll only speak about EU servers as I play on them, and I'll share a piece of my ~450 hours of gaming experience).

 

I mostly play TDM, when I'm addicted to hawken I play 20 min of  coopTDM on the morning (6.30 -> 7 am), then I'll mostly play during saturday and sunday.

On saturday (and sunday) I always check herokuapp before logging, but servers are quite empty until 1 p.m, so when I start playing on 10 a.m I log either to a coopTDM or the Critical Assist server when it was up.

I tend to stay in the server I'm in, and accept TDM invite from other players when the server MMR is too high or too low.

It happens (very rarely) that I join siege, but it last too long and I don't feel comfortable.

 

IMHO what could increase my gaming experience in hawken is to just modify the way you queue and wait for servers.

 

Let's assume that only a few game modes are "competitive modes", the other modes being "waiting room" where you grind HC even if you leave.

Then :

- synchronize the servers of the competitve modes to help MM do it's work and deal with all servers at the same time.

- make the match maker switch player from one server to another to balance team, and ask player to leave while giving them ticket to join as soon as a balanced match comes up (and give some HC reward or sort of stuff)

- make the match maker have more servers used rather than a few filled up : for example instead of 3 crowded server with 12 people, you can have 2 servers of 8 people and 2 servers of 10 people, which means that players that just log-in have a chance to join a game.

- add a ticket system that a player can request while playing a not competitive mode, when the MM finds enough players requesting tickets to rebalances it sends invite.

- changes bot destruction and some deathmatch servers to fill the role of "waiting room" (as coopTDM can be right now).

 

I think that they should be 3 types of deathmatch servers :

- 1vs1 (5 minutes) for dueling with spectators

- endless waiting room (24 players) where you grind HC for each kills while waiting for a siege or a TDM

- private server playground where you can test whatever mode you want (racing in frontline, all techies, all Fred, etc)

Edited by MomOw, 25 March 2015 - 06:04 AM.

[Dr_Freeze001]

Private servers would give the players way more than any tweak or change to existing systems. 

 

Considering the OP, what should the priorities of the devs be? Tweak a game or interest the players? In my opinion I'd be way happier with private servers or a new map than the removal of radar or balancing/nerfing.

 

You can always go back and tweak a mechanic (not a core-machanic, mind you, but isolated systems), but it's harder to win back a player who has lost interest. Exploring and getting out of the maps was great. More pls. 

 

 

 

I am very much looking forward to the EU talk. I thought there was nothing left to discuss at this time in developement, but I was mistaken.

[Vdragon]

What with the remote detonation of the TOW? it's a core (imho) mechanic since alpha (as far as I remember, but i could be wrong), what was different was that the TOW was dealing more dmg but had a tinier explosion range (again, afaIr). Removing the remote detonation would actually be bad, and it would end up as TF2 soldier, where you shoot under the foot of the enemy and don't try to aim at them (talking about the soldier, it could be nice to have multiple TOW type, like one that deal more dmg when doing a direct hit, but almost have no explosion range).

[Merl61]

I agree with keeping the game the same with the exception of radar scanner and incin. Everything else is playable. It might not be ideal, but it's playable. This game is a lot more balanced than a lot of triple a titles. Major changes will only drive players away. The game stayed afloat for 9 months in its present state. It can't be THAT bad.

Edited by Merl61, 25 March 2015 - 06:21 AM.

[OmegaNull]

I agree with keeping the game the same with the exception of radar scanner and incin. Everything else is playable. It might not be ideal, but it's playable. This game is a lot more balanced than a lot of triple a titles. Major changes will only drive players away. The game stayed afloat for 9 months in its present state. It can't be THAT bad.

I agree. 

[RedVan]

What with the remote detonation of the TOW? it's a core (imho) mechanic since alpha (as far as I remember, but i could be wrong), what was different was that the TOW was dealing more dmg but had a tinier explosion range (again, afaIr). Removing the remote detonation would actually be bad, and it would end up as TF2 soldier, where you shoot under the foot of the enemy and don't try to aim at them (talking about the soldier, it could be nice to have multiple TOW type, like one that deal more dmg when doing a direct hit, but almost have no explosion range).

 

Removing remote det would give more reason to get better at the game.  Remote det is extremely forgiving, and by all means, unnecessary in a game such as Hawken.

 

Here's an example of a game a few of us used to play, which had far greater aerial maneuverability, and we did just fine with direct hits.

 

 

If people need to shoot the ground in hawken due to removal of remote det, that's ok.  Eventually they'll improve and get the direct hits, which will offer greater reward as it's not feathered damage.

[KejiGoto]

The private servers actually featured mutators. For example you could turn off the radar for everyone. It goes without saying it made flanking quite easy. I still do not want them to remove the radar from the game because I think it is an essential part of HAWKEN.

I can certainly agree removing the radar made matches a huge pain because you never really knew where anything was happening at and gave too great a sense of freedom (in my opinion) knowing that there is no radar for anyone to keep track of what you're doing. While I think the radar is too powerful in its current form I do not think removing the radar is as simple a fix as Nept believes.

 

The radar needs to function on a line of sight basis. If you can see it then you'll get an exact position on the radar which can track the signature for a limited time afterwards. Things like firing a weapon will give a directional location but not an exact position just something along the lines of to the right of you (similar to when taking damage but for the radar). Boosting shouldn't put you on the radar unless you've been spotted as well. Scanner should operate much in the same way as well only being able to broadcast limited knowledge that it obtains via line of sight and it should only go to whoever the user is, not the entire team.

 

Keeping the radar at line of sight promotes map awareness as players need to be constantly on the look out and can't rely solely on their radar to give them all the information they need. It can still direct players back to combat based on directional alerts for weapon fire too. Not to mention this reduces how effective the scanner is as well and doesn't make it nearly as useful as it is now but it can still be useful in the right hands. Also this helps promote communication among teams as well for spotting enemies, where someone was heading when they engaged, anyone spotted by a scanner now only has one person who is alerted so that person needs to get this information to their team.

I really dig having radar in a game like this because it gives you something else to pay attention to and if you know how to use it right then it can be a great tool. Right now radar is too easy to use and in many situations provides more information than main screen does for the match. I think making some of the changes outlined above would definitely keep it useful and part of Hawken but removes how all seeing it is while also fixing a problematic item too.

[Sylhiri]

This is a discussion? It looks more like a Q&A to me.

[TheVulong]

 

4:28 AM - OmniNept:  I don't want the skill ceiling dropped lower than it already is.  If it goes too low, we're done - my guys, I mean.  You already have a game with remote detonation and near-constant radar.  You don't need to nerf maneuverability more.

 

4:29 AM - OmniNept: Year, remove radar.  Remove remote detonation.  Then we'll talk about AC.

 

4:29 AM - DerMax: Remove or change how it works.

 

4:30 AM - OmniNept: Nah, has to go imo

 

Ok, first of all, care to explain why the skill ceiling is low all of a sudden? Is it because of the sustained weapons? Or is it because people like to fly so much? Or is it because of low TTK? 

 

Second: "remove the radar". I'm sorry, but are you f*cking nuts? Why would you remove the core game mechanic that certainly requires mastery therefore raising the skill ceiling and also prevents mindless and careless play? Just.. why.. i don't even..

 

Third: "remove the manual detonation". Uh-huh, and make air meta the only way to play this game since anyone who'll stay on the ground will be at a seruois disadvantage. I see where you're going with this.

 

 

 

4:30 AM - DerMax: Alter the fuel consumption logic.  Alter the heat management logic.  Remove the darn tech.
.
4:30 AM - OmniNept: Ugh, that heat discussion thing again.  I'm going to have to get Josh speaking with the competitive players before he gets into his head the idea that he's been talking to the majority.

And by majority you mean you and your friends, no doubt. 

 

 

4:47 AM - OmniNept: I won't stick to my position thoughtlessly, just because it's "my" position.  But I don't want to see Hawken's skill ceiling lowered, and I don't want to see the same mistakes made through massive rebalancing - not when I think (and that's my opinion, ofc) that the game's in a solid place and just lacking in content.  That's all.  I just don't want it to be fuzzy bunnyed up again because people think that doing this or that will make it boom.

 

Yet you're suggesting stupid sh*t like removing the radar which would be a massive meta and balance change. 

[TheVulong]

Yeah, basically make a direct hit deal 15% more damage, that'll do it.

Guys, it already works the way you describe. If the manual detonation is a pain for you, reduce the splash radius instead.

Edited by TheVulong, 25 March 2015 - 07:54 AM.

[TheVulong]

He's probably chatting with all these "god tier" players and forming an opinion based off that. God only knows what this game is going to look like a year from now...
 

D e a d.

Edited by TheVulong, 25 March 2015 - 07:57 AM.

[Weezl3]

Ok, first of all, care to explain why the skill ceiling is low all of a sudden? Is it because of the sustained weapons? Or is it because people like to fly so much? Or is it because of low TTK?

Second: "remove the radar". I'm sorry, but are you f*cking nuts? Why would you remove the core game mechanic that certainly requires mastery therefore raising the skill ceiling and also prevents mindless and careless play? Just.. why.. i don't even..

Third: "remove the manual detonation". Uh-huh, and make air meta the only way to play this game since anyone who'll stay on the ground will be at a seruois disadvantage. I see where you're going with this.


And by majority you mean you and your friends, no doubt.


Yet you're suggesting stupid sh*t like removing the radar which would be a massive meta and balance change.

Quoted to save my spot.
Argument incoming when I get out of class.

 

Okay, so let's go through these points in order, shall we?

First, the skill ceiling isn't low all of a sudden. It's always been low. It's kinda what drew me to the game in the first place. It has a steep learning curve at first, but eventually there's only so much higher you can go. Blame whatever you want for this, but the idea that many people go airborne now has not diminished the skill cap at all. If anything, it's increased the skill cap to include the ability to, you know, aim at things in 3 dimensions instead of just forward and side to side.

 

Second, if you consider the current radar to be "the core game mechanic", we're clearly playing different games. I would concede that the radar is an element in the game. I would even concede that it is an incredibly useful mechanic in its current state. But the fact that you call it "the core game mechanic" indicates that literally nothing else matters in the game besides the almighty radar. This opinion in and of itself leads to the conclusion that in order to increase the skill ceiling, you must either remove the radar or (my preference) diminish its effectiveness from its current place of omnipotence. The radar in its current state exacerbates this "mindless and careless play" that you're arguing it prevents. If you were to nerf the radar to only include team mates and enemies that are currently being seen by team mates, a player would be forced to constantly pay attention to his positioning in relation to his team mates. This can be accomplished with the current radar without taking your eyes off of the bottom corner of the screen. I have won many fights without ever taking my eyes off of the radar in its current state. You don't need to even look at the person you're fighting. You know everything about what's happening in the fight be audio clues and the bright red dots on the radar. What is more mindless than just staring at the bottom left 20% of your screen in a game that takes up the whole screen?

 

Third, if you actually think that any pilot who is worth half a crap can't hit a flying mech with projectile weapons, let alone with a hit scan primary, you have never gone against a pilot who actually plays hawken at a decently high level. I wouldn't consider myself to be even near the top of the player pyramid at the current moment, but even I can hit an air dodging mech with tows directly. You add in splash from air det, and you can't miss an A class whether they're on the ground or in the sky. Diluting yourself to consider that the only reason that your opponent is able to beat you is because he's using a broken mechanic is a great way to build up your ego, but its a terrible way to actually succeed in a game. If you learn to actually hit your shots directly, then the only time air det is necessary is when you're corner dueling someone and need the extra splash. (Really, even this isn't necessary, but that's another argument for another day. 

 

You really want to make the argument that Nept wants to shift the meta by removing the radar, which he never argued for unless the developers were to do something like removing air dodge, among other significant changes. If you actually read the argument in its entirety, you would surely have noticed that this was also included in the discussion:

4:28 AM - OmniNept:  I don't want the skill ceiling dropped lower than it already is.  If it goes too low, we're done - my guys, I mean.  You already have a game with remote detonation and near-constant radar.  You don't need to nerf maneuverability more.

 

4:29 AM - DerMax: There are many ways to raise the ceiling.

 

4:29 AM - OmniNept: Year, remove radar.  Remove remote detonation.  Then we'll talk about AC.

The world you live in must be a hell of a place when you can completely disregard arguments that go against your own beliefs. Maybe some day we can all visit. Until that day, I'm going to stay over here on the side of reason and logic and make sure this world doesn't get corrupted and forced into the logical traps that you're trying to set for them.

 

Edited by Weezl3, 25 March 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[TheVulong]

Last, but not least is the radar. It is my opinion that the radar should not pick up boosting mechs unless that mech has been seen by a teammate or self. 

Gonna repeat myself here but whatever: what you're suggesting will benefit careless play and also make flanking a trivial task. And flanking is essential in this game.

[RedVan]

 

Ok, first of all, care to explain why the skill ceiling is low all of a sudden? Is it because of the sustained weapons? Or is it because people like to fly so much? Or is it because of low TTK? 

 

Second: "remove the radar". I'm sorry, but are you f*cking nuts? Why would you remove the core game mechanic that certainly requires mastery therefore raising the skill ceiling and also prevents mindless and careless play? Just.. why.. i don't even..

 

Third: "remove the manual detonation". Uh-huh, and make air meta the only way to play this game since anyone who'll stay on the ground will be at a seruois disadvantage. I see where you're going with this.

 

 

And by majority you mean you and your friends, no doubt. 

 

 

Yet you're suggesting stupid sh*t like removing the radar which would be a massive meta and balance change. 

The low skill ceiling is nothing new, it's been there since the beginning.  Is hawkens skill ceiling higher than many games?  Yes, but relative to high skill ceiling games, it's quite low.

 

Radar did not require mastery to use.  It told you exactly where people are, then you just had to point there and splash.  There's nothing masterful about that lol.  Knowing where your opponent is, however, will cause mindless and careless play.  You don't need to think as much if the game is telling you where they are, and you can be careless in the areas where they are not.  If you do not know where they are, you'd better get your mind working and be careful.

 

Direct hits with TOW, GL, etc... aren't that difficult given the current air maneuverability, even with AC.  I did post a video above of a game with much greater air maneuverability where direct hits were mandatory, or you did no damage.  It's certainly possible.

 

 

Gonna repeat myself here but whatever: what you're suggesting will benefit careless play and also make flanking a trivial task. And flanking is essential in this game.

 

Flanking will not be trivial w/o radar, because then ALL players on BOTH teams will have to KEEP GREATER LOOKOUT in ALL directions ALL THE TIME!  Radar really makes the game easy.  Radar has NEVER been considered a high skill mechanic to hawken.

Edited by RedVan, 25 March 2015 - 08:13 AM.

[TheVulong]

Radar did not require mastery to use.  It told you exactly where people are, then you just had to point there and splash.  There's nothing masterful about that lol.  Knowing where your opponent is, however, will cause mindless and careless play.  You don't need to think as much if the game is telling you where they are, and you can be careless in the areas where they are not.  If you do not know where they are, you'd better get your mind working and be careful.

 

First of all, i think you're full of sh*t and i start to hate you.

 

Second, You CONSTANTLY have to pay attention to the radar in order to not get your a$$ handed over to you and to be of use for your team. The radar directly affects your positioning and decision making as it gives you the info you need in order to plan and execute your next action.  In other words, it directly affects your map awareness. And good map awareness is one of those things that distinguishes a good player from a bad player.

 

 

Flanking will not be trivial w/o radar, because then ALL players on BOTH teams will have to KEEP GREATER LOOKOUT in ALL directions ALL THE TIME! 

Your reasoning doesn't justify your statement. 

Edited by TheVulong, 25 March 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[deidarall]

Ya know, from a balance point of view AC, and the wind walking can work, if it is made universal or tweaked  it could work from a balancing point of view. 

 

My issues are not directly related to balance, but to pacing. I had a long talk with a guy called night about this, when we talk about making wind walking universal we talk about something much more central to the game that direct balance changes. We are talking about a change related to the flow of duels and engagements in a very primary way. 

 

Now it is true that balance itself can effect these factors, and I think that is why most people fixate on balance, while really the 12/12/12 builds I think had what objectively can be considered tighter pacing. When we consider wind walking, and how it effects the pacing of old hawken, we have to realize that wind walking lets a player refuse a duel in favor of backing up and dealing damage instead.  Where otherwise the player would just have to accept the duel or commit fully to a reacting retreat.

 

The fact that people can fly backwards and forth is a massive change to pacing before you even get into balancing issues, and I think that at least the people I talk to agree something was lost from the game-play once the ascending build hit. I chatted to omeganull and was able to appeal to that sense. I talked to night and appealed to that, and while ofc I did not get full agreements about what should be done I did not face rejection of my appeals, and a general feeling of losing something (At least from those two) in my conversations with them, this implies a complex pacing issue as apposed to a direct balancing issue, and it gets very very feel-y and theory based.

 

But I think it is also hard to dismiss from the object fact that wind walking changed the pacing of how hawken plays greatly, in ideals that are not related to balance or even skill in a lot of cases, it is similar to radar, removing it changes the game pace regardless of how balanced it is or isn't. After all removing it from everyone is balance, but it still not might be optimal for actually playing the game. I think the it should be uniform argument comes from people fixated on balance, and I think the people vs the wind walking are arguing incorrectly from a balance point of view, when in fact that is not the way to beat or discredit people arguing for wind walking. Instead I would rather focus on how it tapped into gameplay pacing, and how engagements progress in themselves. I think that is more effective for why it feels fair or unfair to fight, and why making it uniform is quite simply jumping off the pacing cliff, even if it is not jumping off the objective balancing cliff. Balancing is the surface of game-play, and while it sets it's own pacing in of itself, pacing is much more nuance that simply calling it a balance issue, again radar is a prime example.  

 

On a random note:

 

In my intro-vid to the issues of wind walking, Redvan picked it apart as a skill issue, but my focus was the fact that I had to look up, disadvantaging me in regards to what I can do, he talked about how I did not note the zerker, I did, but at first I had proper distance so I focused on what I thought was the larger threat, the brawler, stuff like that is pacing in of itself, these factors of how this guy pressed me, and made me look up, those are direct changes of pacing we did not encounter in the 12/12/12 builds, and I am not exactly sure anyone needed pacing changes before AC and wind walking was put in, and after so long it is still debated cause people have not adjusted to it, it is not cause people don't try to, it is simply in my view that the pacing has issues in itself, related to wind walking, the pro- wind walkers have the edge in terms of having a long long time to normalize there position, "well people are used to it." but clearly this falls apart when you realize how long it has been in the game, and how people disagree with it's being in the game, if it was purely a balance or skill issue the idea for it to be uniform would likely have more support. (I still have to like respond to that thread but like I like this one better for some reason cause I am a tree)

 

Here's an example of a game a few of us used to play, which had far greater aerial maneuverability, and we did just fine with direct hits.

 

 

Also note it is a 3rd person game, where situation pacing is managed very well with a large 3rd person cam and large distances to adjust and predict over. Also I feel no need to play a game like that so.... idk how that applies. 

Edited by deidarall, 25 March 2015 - 08:39 AM.

[TheVulong]

 

~Stuff~

 

The world you live in must be a hell of a place when you can completely disregard arguments that go against your own beliefs. Maybe some day we can all visit. Until that day, I'm going to stay over here on the side of reason and logic and make sure this world doesn't get corrupted and forced into the logical traps that you're trying to set for them.

I'm not convinced by what you're saying. It's the case of "My truth doesn't match your truth" and vice versa. Let's leave it at that.

[OdinTheWise]

i think removing the  remot det function is dumb. it is a level deapth that gives a safety net for noobs and allows you to hit targets around corners and things of that nature. its been in the game since alpha and should stay. 

[Valimer]

I read the whole convo, very insightful. I'd just like to point out I'm not new here and I've played about 100 hours of Hawken and spent money on the game.

 

I didn't read the entire thread but I would just like to point out that match making, the time between matches, how the matches turn over and retaining players during matches needs to be addressed. In fact, I believe this is the top priority issue. We need the player experience to be as streamlined as possible.

 

One solution would be to boot players out and make the re-queue up for a match, like LoL. Or, if we keep the same map transitioning we need to make it quicker, like Counter-Strike. We also need to keep players in the game somehow, which is a subject that has been touched on here in the forums countless times.

 

just my 2cents

[ThirdEyE]

i think removing the  remot det function is dumb. it is a level deapth that gives a safety net for noobs and allows you to hit targets around corners and things of that nature. its been in the game since alpha and should stay. 

I'm not entirely against removal of remote detonation, but a few other changes would need to accompany it.  Air maneuverability is an obvious concern, but map geometry is a big problem as well.  I can't count how many times I've been denied explosive damage because of the uneven floors and invisible corners.  Projectile speed might need to be increased as well.