140 replies to this topic

[RedVan]

Stop cloaking, people see u anyway ;)

[Grollourdo]

I wanna surpass Prometheus.... XD lol

Wait if I get buffed he gets buffed.... Nuoooooo lol XD


OK seriously now

The claok has TOOO MANY draw backs, just take a few away and I think it should be good no?

[CrimsonKaim]

Stop cloaking, people see u anyway ;)

True but it is still a way to hide from scanners. But even they see you cloked.

[PepeKenobi]

just curious... the cloack of a pred "is still better" than the infil's one?

[Kopra]

You can get pretty far with using side dodges and walking sideways.

 

[Nov8tr]

just curious... the cloack of a pred "is still better" than the infil's one?

Yes it is. It does not eat fuel like the infil and it is harder to see. And ....stuff.

[-Tj-]

just curious... the cloack of a pred "is still better" than the infil's one?

Yes it is. It does not eat fuel like the infil and it is harder to see. And ....stuff.

AFAIK, Infil cloak and Pred cloak use the same shaders and look the same. Infils are just usually on the move constantly so you see them more easily. But Pred's cloak is definitely better for the reasons that the cloak lasts an infinite amount of time, goes back into cloak after cloak is self-broken (unless it's the ability key that was pressed), the cooldown is much shorter, and the Pred has Pred vision, which means it can anticipate and plan attacks on a different level (not necessarily better, but that's debatable).

 

You can get pretty far with using side dodges and walking sideways.

True. I should have put that in my test considering I do that often. However, it doesn't change the fact that the fuel tie-in that sucks the fun out of it.

[Kopra]

 

True. I should have put that in my test considering I do that often. However, it doesn't change the fact that the fuel tie-in that sucks the fun out of it.

 

It's actually one more reason to not have a fuel cost associated with the cloak. Unless you're running Fuel Converter and being under fire, then there's very little reason to boost while cloaked since doing the dodges is almost as fast. Just as bunny hopping as an A-class to conserve fuel, it simply looks stupid and doesn't need much effort. I would rather boost that distance for the same fuel cost than doing ninja crab movements.

Of course, if you remove the fuel cost you could still do the side dodges and conserve a lot of fuel for just a small loss in speed... but I was never a fan of fuelless dodges as a mechanic anyway.

[Grollourdo]

Yeah maybe its true that you can get a long way with infils fuel and cloak, but what about you run into combat?

This is not a race but a war no?

Get what I mean?

Groll

[PepeKenobi]

AFAIK, Infil cloak and Pred cloak use the same shaders and look the same. Infils are just usually on the move constantly so you see them more easily. But Pred's cloak is definitely better for the reasons that the cloak lasts an infinite amount of time, goes back into cloak after cloak is self-broken (unless it's the ability key that was pressed), the cooldown is much shorter, and the Pred has Pred vision, which means it can anticipate and plan attacks on a different level (not necessarily better, but that's debatable).

 

True. I should have put that in my test considering I do that often. However, it doesn't change the fact that the fuel tie-in that sucks the fun out of it.

maybe a couple of screenshots to demonstrate that the same cloack effect/quality exists in between both mechs? =)

[Nov8tr]

Maybe its my video card than. A EVGA GTX780 ACX. The infil cloak is more "sparkly" than the pred. To me the pred is more of a "smudge" on the screen.

 

*edit* Oh yeah I also run everything on full except blur is off. I run physX on max as well.

Edited by Nov8tr, 22 May 2015 - 12:45 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

The two cloaks look distinctly different on my machine.

[PepeKenobi]

The two cloaks look distinctly different on my machine.

That's what I was telling you guys some few days ago in here. Also, my uncle told me about that the pred's cloack was better. That from day zero when this mech was implemented in the game.

 

Note ::: Those who think it is definitely not so maybe should check it in different graphical settings...

[-Tj-]

I'll give it a look today and come back with some screenshots or something. Might be my graphics settings, since I only play on lowest settings most of the time.

[System64]

Here's how Infil's cloak should work:

 

-Taking damage cancels it

-Recharge time = 20 sec

-Does not consume fuel

-Attacking cancels it

-Dodging and boosting does not cancel it

-Lasts until deactivated or canceled by any means above

 

This would be fair for the Infiltrator, as the Predator's cloak gives it heat vision, which is why it gets canceled by basically everything. The Infiltrator does not have that advantage, so making it work like the way I have stated above will balance it out.

Edited by System64, 23 May 2015 - 11:45 PM.

[Silverfire]

Wait how would making Infil cloak like Pred Cloak without the heat vision balance the Infil cloak?

[System64]

@Silverfire: Here is some more detail on my opinions:

 

Predator cloak:

-Makes you invisible and gives you I.R. vision

-Gets cancelled if you boost

-Gets cancelled if you fire your weapons

-Gets cancelled if you dodge

-If cancelled by any of the above means, the cloak will reactivate after three seconds

-Gets cancelled if you take damage (even 1 point)

-If the cloak is cancelled by damage (or user operation), you will be completely taken out of Stalker mode and full recharge time will be required (15 sec, but it really should be 20-25 sec)

-Does not consume fuel

-Lasts until cancelled

 

How the Infiltrator's cloak SHOULD work:

-Makes you invisible

-Gets cancelled if you fire your weapons

-Gets cancelled if you take damage (even 1 point)

-Does not get cancelled if you boost

-Does not get cancelled if you dodge

-If cancelled by any means (including user operation), you will be taken out of Camouflage completely (unlike with Stalker where you re-cloak after three seconds, depending on how it was cancelled) and full recharge time (30 sec, but it really should be 20-25 sec) will be required

-Does not consume fuel

-Lasts until cancelled

 

These changes to Camouflage (and that one little change to Stalker) will make them more even, if you compare them with these changes. At the moment the cloak modes are unbalanced.

Edited by System64, 24 May 2015 - 03:50 PM.

[-Tj-]

As fun as it might sound to be able to cloak more often, there's actually two specific reasons I don't really like the ideas proposed:

 

 

-Taking damage cancels it

-Recharge time = 20 sec

 

The Infiltrator's cloak operates in such a way so as to get in, do some damage, and get out, which is fundamentally different from the Predator's cloak which is more sneak and hide. This is exemplified by, as you have noticed, the fact that it cannot stay cloaked while doing anything but walking or standing still. If the Infil cloak were to be made to work mostly like the Pred cloak, with the exception of not being cancelled when boosting, dodging, or flying, it would take the fun out of using it at all. Case-in-point, when the cloak is disabled by heat-based weapons (SAARE, B3AR-M4M4, Heat Charge), the cloak is disabled immediately, and my first reaction, every time, is "aw WTF." That's not fun. I expect it in the Pred, since if I get hit, I know I'm not doing my job as a Pred very well. If this were to happen while I'm trying to infiltrate, I would likely stop playing Infiltrator altogether out of sheer frustration. Infiltrators often take damage from stray bullets or splash damage, just because they're often in the thick of it. Having cloak get cancelled by stray damage would do it no favors and make it much less fun to play.

 

Adding to this, if the cloak were able to be used every 20 seconds (or 15 seconds, if the Replenisher is used), you'd likely start hearing a lot more people crying "Infil OP!!" The reason for this is that, while you may think taking damage cancelling it offsets its ability to use it far more often, don't forget that it's not just a visual thing and that it also takes it off radar. Coupled with the Infil's ability to deliver high-damage alpha strikes, a pilot with very good situational awareness and strategic positioning would be able to take much more advantage of the shortened ability cooldown and do far more damage than it's already capable of.

 

The above are both from the perspective of an Infil pilot. On the other hand, fighting against Infiltrators while cloaked is actually very fun (imo) in its current state. If you see an Infiltrator, more than likely your first reaction is "KILLITKILLITKILLIT" amirite? Not being able to see it, even if you're shooting at it, means you're not quite sure how much damage you're doing until A: you kill it, or B: it comes out of cloak. Some Infil pilots will just continue on their way while getting shot, sometimes because they don't think you're actually shooting at them ("durr hurr, they not shootin' at me cuz I'm invizabable"). Others might not be able to maneuver well because... well... they're out of fuel (THANKS, CLOAK), and they might not have thought about the whole dodging thing. I find it immensely satisfying to kill a cloaked Infiltrator because of the way it works now, and I would not want this part of its mechanics to go away.

 

[PepeKenobi]

Just to mention that I've played a test map game today and after cloaking my Infil and later using the 3rd person view via TAB key the visual effect wasn't looking that bad to me.

 

Map was Origin. Perhaps other guys may apport their own impression on how good is the Infil's cloack Vs. the Pred's one.

[-Tj-]

I recorded some footage the other day, both Pred and Infil. From what I saw, the effects look identical between the two, tested in both Low and Ultra graphics settings. I'm sorting through the video I took, gonna see if I can splice it together to upload.

[VYR3]

I would be happy with the removal of fuel drain while cloaked.

 

its not needed with the 40 second cool down.

[-Tj-]

Finished the video editing. I think I went a little overboard for what it is, making it all fancy and stuff, but meh.

 

 

I didn't test Medium and High graphics settings, but I presume they look the same since Low and Ultra look pretty much the same, too. If you guys want, I can test those out later.

 

Edit: I should add a few machine specs just in case that has anything to do with it:

 

Intel Core i7 2600K 3.40GHz

Nvidia GeForce 560 Ti 2GB

24GB DDR3 RAM

Edited by -Tj-, 26 May 2015 - 10:42 PM.

[Nov8tr]

TJ extremely well done and thanks for taking the time to do it. But that is not what I see on mine. And both of those mechs are standing still out in the open. Which some Preds or Infils would do I guess for whatever reason. I don't ever do that. I travel from wall to wall or to buildings or nearest object. In Pred I boost to each. In infil I have to walk to each. But i mainly use mine to escape. (turn a corner and duck w/cloak.) Sometimes I use it for a alpha strike. But I have yet to duplicate the one shot effect that I have been seeing by the high level players that come in the low/mid level games. I ask and they ALL scream I'm accusing them of hacking. No I'm not. I want to know how they do a alpha strike and do one shot kills. I have yet to have one single one of them answer me. In yours I see the "feet" of them mech as almost white and clearly stand out. I've never seen that in game ever. Not in almost 3 yrs ever. I really think there are many variables in what people see depending on their video card, monitor, etc. The main difference to me is not seeing them, it is the infil has to walk and eats fuel. The pred can run, and reenter cloak after being hit, etc. Well again thanks for checking it on your system. Nice job. Take care. :D

[-Tj-]

Did you tweak the ini files at all? Also, what are your machine specs? If you're running something other than Nvidia, I'm wondering if the graphics card or even the drivers have anything to do with it.

 

The reason I put those mechs there was because I needed a common place to put them and someplace I could walk around easily (up and down as well). One thing I've noticed: the cloak cuts out the fog on distant objects and enhances shadows on dark objects. I recorded some footage on Last Eco as well, and it was really noticeable against the foliage on the ground.

Edited by -Tj-, 27 May 2015 - 01:18 AM.

[-Tj-]

But I have yet to duplicate the one shot effect that I have been seeing by the high level players that come in the low/mid level games. I ask and they ALL scream I'm accusing them of hacking. No I'm not. I want to know how they do a alpha strike and do one shot kills. I have yet to have one single one of them answer me.

 

Forgot to answer this one. The way I do it is with the EOC Repeater, HE Charge, and Grenade all at once. The timing is key: launch the slowest projectile first, follow it by the next fastest, and then finish with the fastest. Usually I start with the HE Charge, follow with a Grenade, and finish with a fully-charged EOC shot. If you do it right, everything will land at around the same time. It's tricky, and it doesn't always work, but that's how I do it. It really helps if you have a mouse that you can map the item buttons to. I have a Logitech G9 with two buttons on the thumb, and it works wonders. The only problem with this setup that I've found is that the HE Charge often doesn't remote detonate when I want it to. I don't know if it's my mouse, the game, or some restriction I'm unaware of. I've heard some prefer the Detonator, but the HE Charge has marginally higher damage output (last I recall, anyway) and a similar arc to the Grenade.

[Nov8tr]

Thanks for the reply TJ. On my specs, check my profile its all there including pics. And all about me as well. Well a lot about me but not all, That would take too long, lol. On the one shot with the weapons and procedure, that would explain the alpha strikes from behind. That would be about 50% of what I'm talking about. The other half is when the two of us come face to face and I start either firing or start to fire and they just one shot me dead instantly. All I see is my mech exploding. The way you describe the other feasible. Hard but feasible. But the face to face I see so much now is still just not right to me. Thanks and take care. :D

[Liederkranz]

The other half is when the two of us come face to face and I start either firing or start to fire and they just one shot me dead instantly. All I see is my mech exploding.

 

Those pseudo one-shot-kills usually work when performed on A classes. For what I know, I always thought the HE charge and the grenade from GL were the exact same projectile with the same damage and arc (I'd dare to say same visual aspect too). Considering they're pretty similar, it's like shooting 2 grenades at once. If you add the damage from a fully loaded repeater shot it's very likely that the victim ends up dead. Also have in consideration that the victim may not have full health when engaged by an infil's full arsenal all at once. Even a wounded B class ends up dead in that situation. Also, if the zone is crowded, even if your front-facing attacker gets the kill on you, there are high chances that you get stray shots from nearby battles or from ppl trying to harm you. They end up assisting your main attacker, and the way it all develops makes it look like your main attacker did the whole damage.

Edited by Liederkranz, 27 May 2015 - 09:48 AM.

[WillyW]

MY SUGGESTION:

 

Keep everything the same; cloak relies on fuel, same cooldown, same boost/walk speed, etc.

BUT change the cloak cooldown to be equal to the amount of fuel left in the tank.

For example, if there is only 30% fuel left in the tank, which means you used 70% fuel. Therefore, the cooldown would be 28 seconds instead of the full 40 seconds. You would only ever be required to wait the full 40 second cooldown time if you used ALL of your fuel.

Formula...
 

(% of Fuel Used) x (Total Cooldown) = Net Cooldown

 

(0.7) x (40 seconds) = 28 seconds
 

*The only issue that still is unresolved is that annoying time when you accidentally double-tap the ability button, and then you waste your cloak entirely and die.*

[Sylhiri]

MY SUGGESTION:

 

Keep everything the same; cloak relies on fuel, same cooldown, same boost/walk speed, etc.

BUT change the cloak cooldown to be equal to the amount of fuel left in the tank.

For example, if there is only 30% fuel left in the tank, which means you used 70% fuel. Therefore, the cooldown would be 28 seconds instead of the full 40 seconds. You would only ever be required to wait the full 40 second cooldown time if you used ALL of your fuel.

Formula...
 

(% of Fuel Used) x (Total Cooldown) = Net Cooldown

 

(0.7) x (40 seconds) = 28 seconds
 

*The only issue that still is unresolved is that annoying time when you accidentally double-tap the ability button, and then you waste your cloak entirely and die.*

 

I can't see that changing much at all for the viability of infil cloak. The cooldown is still pretty long and the nasty side effect remains unless you go very short distances.

[Flifang]

The ability doesn't need a technical rework it needs a buff. Well I guess you could argue both because what it needs is the fuel consumption gone and thus a time limit to its duration so it's a bit more than a buff. It has the same issue as the G2 raider does with having a clear drawback in using fuel to power the ability. I will admit, I do enjoy having to put serious thought into what I do in the game before I do it, however at this point the majority of mechs in the game have no drawbacks to their abilities. This really doesn't make the game balanced whichever way you look at it. The pro's don't outweigh the cons for this ability and they won't for the G2 raider until the oversight by the old devs on how it puts you on radar is fixed. The cloak is not good enough to make risking escape or attack with it and be left with no fuel. Saying the ability is fine with you is a pretty crappy argument because there are a lot of mechs in the game that can play just fine without the use of their ability. A lot of c-class users won't use their abilities because of how situational they are, and I also believe that causes slight imbalance and the only one that gets a good enough benefit with turret mode at the moment in my opinion is the vanguard. Even if they don't remove the fuel consumption on the infiltrator's ability I think the best course to take is to tie the cooldown with how long you use the ability itself. It's stupid that an ability of a mech that is directly tied to the fuel also has a completely separate cooldown associated with it as well. I digress though, as some of you based on a post I made yesterday know how I dislike nit-picking at the realism in a videogame.

[WillyW]

I can't see that changing much at all for the viability of infil cloak. The cooldown is still pretty long and the nasty side effect remains unless you go very short distances.

 

You are forgetting something. The Infiltrator is an assassin. You are meant to use the cloak ability to sneak up on enemies. As soon as you fire your first shot, your cloak is essentially useless because you have no element of surprise. However, if only use the cloak for a short distance (just to get the first shot in), then my suggestion works great for that. If do a short distance cloak to get the first shot, then you will most likely have enough fuel in the tank, as well as a short enough cool down, to be able to re-cloak and get away safely if you end up in a bad spot OR use the remaining fuel to boost/dodge and kill the enemy. The cooldown IS long, but it doesn't have to be if you make the changes I suggested.

Edited by WillyW, 27 May 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[-Tj-]

You are forgetting something. The Infiltrator is an assassin. You are meant to use the cloak ability to sneak up on enemies. As soon as you fire your first shot, your cloak is essentially useless because you have no element of surprise. However, if only use the cloak for a short distance (just to get the first shot in), then my suggestion works great for that. If do a short distance cloak to get the first shot, then you will most likely have enough fuel in the tank, as well as a short enough cool down, to be able to re-cloak and get away safely if you end up in a bad spot OR use the remaining fuel to boost/dodge and kill the enemy. The cooldown IS long, but it doesn't have to be if you make the changes I suggested.

The cooldown really isn't the issue here, it's the tie-in to fuel. The tie-in removes a healthy amount of versatility. You can't conserve or recover fuel while cloaked, that's the issue. While your suggestions are interesting, they don't change the viability of the cloak, as Sylhiri has said. All it would change is how it works after you turn off the cloak.

 

The possibility of allowing the cloak to be used more often than it can be now creates the problem of the Infil's ability being seen as OP, more so than it can already be seen by some players now. Players unfamiliar with how the cloak works (players who have never played the Infil or used it for a reasonable amount of time) won't really know how vulnerable the mech is after cloak has been used up, or that Infils that are cloaked may not be capable of advanced maneuvers because they've used up most of their fuel. All they see is a speedy mech that's capable of hitting fast and hitting hard with the ability to go nearly invisible.

[This_Machine]

A cloaked infiltrator loses its heat signature while a cloaked pred doesn't. In stalker mode infiltrator's disappear completely, and pred's don't. The infiltrator and pred's abilities are completely different, so why should the infiltrator�s ability have more of an advantage over other mechs. The G2 raider�s ability lasts long enough to get you in "or" out of a fight, not both. Cool downs don't let you have it both ways for a reason. The pred lets you stay cloaked but not being nearly as invisible as the infiltrator. If camouflage went off a timer instead of fuel it would be OP.

[Draigun]

Due to the way the ability works, it involves higher risk to death. Adding onto the facts that many have already presented here, I agree with TJ. It was a failed balance pass that the devs never perfected in the end due to the Fall. The current implementation isn't very good.

 

Removing the fuel cost associated with its ability should allow the Infiltrator to perform as intended. Currently, at the basic level, it's role as an A class mech is useless as it's practically a Predator without heat vision, Breacher and mines. Even the weapon burst is often varying way more so than the Predator, which is unfortunate given the trade off with its ability.

 

Originally, 6 seconds was the amount of time you could use the ability. But I think it should be a bit longer�unless if the modification of risk level isn't what's needed. Although an already available solution to that is up to the end-user, since cadenced movement in alignment with your team is essential. That said though, the game does need a better high risk, high reward type of play style, since that's what would breathe new life into Hawken, among other things.

[Grollourdo]

Why don't we buff the fuel/cloak ability just a bit in any way that would make it a bit better than the current cloak but keeping the current assasinationg argument?

The only suggestion I have for now would be just to make it not consume fuel while not moving... And make the other stuff stay the same.... I mean come on, its not op, it will stay assassination, you you will be able to hide more when excaping, you will still have to time your ability, you can't just idle and stay at the same spot to ambush (I don't think that would help that much for the team...)... Ect critical thinking.... So many more reasons you name them...

For now I haven't thought of any thing that would be op about it and anything to exploit so yeah....

Groll

[Sylhiri]

A cloaked infiltrator loses its heat signature while a cloaked pred doesn't. In stalker mode infiltrator's disappear completely, and pred's don't.

 

Wut.

 

Why don't we buff the fuel/cloak ability just a bit in any way that would make it a bit better than the current cloak but keeping the current assasinationg argument?

The only suggestion I have for now would be just to make it not consume fuel while not moving... And make the other stuff stay the same.... I mean come on, its not op, it will stay assassination, you you will be able to hide more when excaping, you will still have to time your ability, you can't just idle and stay at the same spot to ambush (I don't think that would help that much for the team...)... Ect critical thinking.... So many more reasons you name them...

 

I have my doubts that Infil cloak was created as an escape tool, it never had a speed increase in the older versions. Trying to bait someone only works at the most a few times before people stop doing it.

[Meraple]

they just one shot me dead instantly.

A Predator can't one-shot any full-HP mech without the use of a pre-layed mine trap.

 

Maximum initial hit damages for Predator with every weapon combo availible:

Breacher (144) + EOC P (65) + HE Charge (65) = 274.

T32 BOLT (120) + EOC P (65) + HE Charge (65) = 250.

EOC R (156) + EOC P (65) + HE Charge (65) = 286.

 

The lowest HP mech is the Technician at 315, so it's impossible to one-shot anything with the weaponry availible to Predator.

[crockrocket]

EMPs break all abilities. Working as intended.

Does it stop an incin mid butt stomp? Because that sounds fun

[StubbornPuppet]

All of the "do they look different or not" talk aside, and not exactly on the topic of why the Infiltrator's cloak shouldn't eat fuel...

 

I still haven't ever been given a good explanation of why some players Infiltrator's cloaks behave differently than others.

 

On the old forum, another player worked with me and he recorded (and posted) some video of how his Infiltrator could fire and drop items without cancelling the cloak ability, yet mine works like normal (any shot or item fully cancels out the cloak).  We did this because I asked, "Why do I keep seeing certain players who can fire and still remain cloaked?  I see one of these people every few days or so.  Is it some kind of a cheat or what?"  He said, "What the heck are you talking about?  I don't know how your cloak works, but mine just decloaks for a second if I fire my primary gun and then goes right back to cloaked.  It doesn't turn off until I run out of fuel or fire my grenade."

 

Here's what his Infiltrator did:  From full fuel, he would cloak.  Then, he would fire a shot from the primary or drop an item - the cloak would disengage for just a second and then automatically reengage.  If he fired the secondary (grenade), his cloak ability would cancel as normal.

 

Then, we compared internals, swapped them out so we were both running the same setup and tried again.  Still the same results.

 

Shortly after that, we ran into another player who had this "gift" and he, too, thought it was just the way the Infiltrator was supposed to work.

 

Is anybody here one of those lucky bastards?

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 28 May 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[Nov8tr]

A Predator can't one-shot any full-HP mech without the use of a pre-layed mine trap.

 

Maximum initial hit damages for Predator with every weapon combo availible:

Breacher (144) + EOC P (65) + HE Charge (65) = 274.

T32 BOLT (120) + EOC P (65) + HE Charge (65) = 250.

EOC R (156) + EOC P (65) + HE Charge (65) = 286.

 

The lowest HP mech is the Technician at 315, so it's impossible to one-shot anything with the weaponry availible to Predator.

Well I can tell you for a fact it does happen. I've had it happen quite a few times in the last few days. Now how they are doing it is the question. In a post several spots above this -TJ- replies on how she does it. So I don't know what to say. I don't like to accuse people of anything without proof. So how so many are doing it lately is still a question for debate currently.