146 replies to this topic

[Hyginos]

I can't believe that people still have trouble understanding this concept.  There actually is a point to the MMR system beyond e-peen farming.  

 

With that said, my reading of the thread thus far is that people are much more worried about loosing their stuff than their MMR.

[teeth_03]

Here's a thought, when we get this large influx of new players, let's not pub stomp every game to drive them out of existence.

Hopefully we get a large enough influx of players that they over shadow the current population. But this assumes a fair bit of Marketing gets done to promote the updated game.

[Ukabix]

Here is my opinion on both matters, based on my experiences:

 

1) Count my voice for grandfathering mechs and weapons. Players should be rewarded for their dedication. And some people actually bought mc to support the game. I bought cosmetics only, but i guess there might be people who bought weapons or mechs too. It would be dissapointing to see it all gone, you know, on the civil grounds... 

 

2) MMR reset is not the issue here. On my second account (started around ~400hrs of gameplay) I got to 2000 mmr very fast and simply went back to main due to the fact that hc flow went too slow to buy equipment. So... I presume that in no more than a week most veteran players would not visit newbie servers anymore.

 

Cheers and have a nice day.

[crockrocket]

Here is my opinion on both matters, based on my experiences:

 

2) MMR reset is not the issue here. On my second account (started around ~400hrs of gameplay) I got to 2000 mmr very fast and simply went back to main due to the fact that hc flow went too slow to buy equipment. So... I presume that in no more than a week most veteran players would not visit newbie servers anymore.

 

 

But there are so many veterans, and they won't all come back at once. There would always be someone pubstomping their way back up. Even if they did all come back in the first week, the first week of a new patch is not something Hawken can afford to mess up again in terms of player retention.

[Flifang]

It might be worth mentioning, that around when I started playing hawken; within a week from the date 3/3/13 I was placed into a match with a player who still posts here and has been among the very top players in hawken (I'm not giving a rank number because last time somebody got on my ass for not giving an up-to-date player ranking even though the person mentioned held that rank at one point or another. Jaysus).

 

This was a long time ago, yes. That player was like a god of hawken to me. Aside from completely dominating the battlefield my only other interaction with that player was him practically shrieking at me through Voip to not go into the turret mode of my new test drive grenadier and that I'm an idiot. These things burned this player's callsign into my mind.

 

Back then I had no knowledge of what matchmaking was or that anything was even done to place players in matches according to their skill range. I rarely ever ran into the same player ever again after leaving a match because there were so many more people playing then. I have absolutely no idea what numbers we're talking about but there were a lot of players.

 

I don't know if and how matchmaking has been changed aside from basic scaling of the window where players can join a match since that faithful day, but assuming it's not too significant I'm confident that no matter how many people are brought into this game, there will always be a chance for a significantly stronger player to be placed in a game with you.

 

There will always be a chance for stomping, regardless if a person's mmr correctly reflects their skill, or if it's a returning player working their way back up to where they sat before they stopped playing. I will also say as far as an old player working their way back up, mmr is far more retroactive than many people assume. If you're doing significantly worse, or significantly better, that fuzzy bunny shoots up or down fast. I fluctuate so damn much I see this so often. Drops and spikes of as much as 11 mmr per match. 

 

The devs have noted our concerns, and have made it vocal that this particular topic also concerns some of them as well. As far as I can see, no real issue has presented itself yet to the grandfathering of weapons. Trying to fix something that has yet to present itself as a serious problem may inadvertently cause more problems in the future. Let's see how this all works out, and then combat anything that becomes concerning about this topic. There is always the option for re-balancing, labeling, and restricting these old mech loadouts if and when it becomes needed. I would personally rather the development team focus on making sure everything DOES transfer over, and making sure that the PC build remains fairly playable after the upcoming patches than trying to fix something that is as of right now far from broken.

[Xacius]

The devs have noted our concerns, and have made it vocal that this particular topic also concerns some of them as well. As far as I can see, no real issue has presented itself yet to the grandfathering of weapons. Trying to fix something that has yet to present itself as a serious problem may inadvertently cause more problems in the future. Let's see how this all works out, and then combat anything that becomes concerning about this topic. There is always the option for re-balancing, labeling, and restricting these old mech loadouts if and when it becomes needed. I would personally rather the development team focus on making sure everything DOES transfer over, and making sure that the PC build remains fairly playable after the upcoming patches than trying to fix something that is as of right now far from broken.

Interesting post.  I'll comment on this point as it's most relevant to the current discussion.  

 

Based on Reloaded's stated plans, there already is an issue.  The entire point of this thread is pointing out that issue, but I'll reiterate anyway.  Grandfathering mechs puts new players at a disadvantage against players that already have the mechs in question.  This wouldn't be an issue if new players were able to purchase every weapon that grandfathered mechs have access to, but currently new mechs only come with a single primary weapon, with no way to acquire the other two.  Some weapons are viable in certain circumstances, but not others.  The best example of this is probably the Brawler.  Anyone well-versed in Hawken's competitive scene can testify to the utility that a Hawkins Brawler offers.  On maps like Bazaar, Frontline, Last Eco, Facility, and Bunker, a Hawkins Brawler is almost always the go-to for each team's Brawler player.  There's rarely a better option on those maps, mech-wise.  Flak Brawler tends to do better on CQC maps like Origin and Wreckage, but it's arguable that a good Hawkins Brawler can perform adequately regardless of the map.  Pretty sure we (OMNI) ran one in every TPG match, at least on the appropriate map.  

 

The primary (l�l) issue is that new players won't have the option of using these extra weapons.  This causes numerous problems for competitive play, namely TPG, as newcomers would be at a strict disadvantage to veterans with grandfathered mechs.  Pub play would also be a concern, although to a lesser extent because of the lack of rules compared to competitive play (class restrictions, mostly).  

 

Even in planning, it's already an issue.  You can choose to sit idly by as development progresses, but that's your prerogative.  I'm going to continue to speak against it until the issue, as well as potential solutions, are recognized by the developers.  

Edited by Xacius, 11 August 2016 - 07:31 PM.

[DallasCreeper]

The primary (l�l) issue is that new players won't have the option of using these extra weapons.  This causes numerous problems for competitive play, namely TPG, as newcomers would be at a strict disadvantage to veterans with grandfathered mechs.  Pub play would also be a concern, although to a lesser extent because of the lack of rules compared to competitive play (class restrictions, mostly).  

As far as I'm sure, It's been said that weapon, Item, and Internal customization will come to Consoles, it just wasn't ready at launch.

[Flifang]

Interesting post.  I'll comment on this point as it's most relevant to the current discussion.  

 

Based on Reloaded's stated plans, there already is an issue.  The entire point of this thread is pointing out that issue, but I'll reiterate anyway.  Grandfathering mechs puts new players at a disadvantage against players that already have the mechs in question.  This wouldn't be an issue if new players were able to purchase every weapon that grandfathered mechs have access to, but currently new mechs only come with a single primary weapon, with no way to acquire the other two.  Some weapons are viable in certain circumstances, but not others.  The best example of this is probably the Brawler.  Anyone well-versed in Hawken's competitive scene can testify to the utility that a Hawkins Brawler offers.  On maps like Bazaar, Frontline, Last Eco, Facility, and Bunker, a Hawkins Brawler is almost always the go-to for each team's Brawler player.  There's rarely a better option on those maps, mech-wise.  Flak Brawler tends to do better on CQC maps like Origin and Wreckage, but it's arguable that a good Hawkins Brawler can perform adequately regardless of the map.  Pretty sure we (OMNI) ran one in every TPG match, at least on the appropriate map.  

 

The primary (l�l) issue is that new players won't have the option of using these extra weapons.  This causes numerous problems for competitive play, namely TPG, as newcomers would be at a strict disadvantage to veterans with grandfathered mechs.  Pub play would also be a concern, although to a lesser extent because of the lack of rules compared to competitive play (class restrictions, mostly).  

 

Even in planning, it's already an issue.  You can choose to sit idly by as development progresses, but that's your prerogative.  I'm going to continue to speak against it until the issue, as well as potential solutions, are recognized by the developers.  

That's completely up to you, but I don't know what you think I can do about this problem. I certainly don't have any amazing and original ideas on how to combat something I can't envision yet. Being as this is a computer game I don't see how I can do anything but sit idly. 

 

I agree 100% about the brawler situation and It's the mech that most comes to mind when considering the impacts of this issue. The fact is we don't know enough. Like dallas above me stated: it has been mentioned that customization was intended for the consoles but there wasn't enough time. Whether that is true or not, this issue could be fixed by merely adding customization to the console anyway. There are quite a few ways reloaded could tackle this, and having spent a bit of time in the competitive scene myself I understand your concern as well as the concern of everyone else. But why bother? Either admit reloaded doesn't care and will make a decision regardless of our input, or accept the fact that everything is subject to change and not necessarily set in stone.

 

All petty jabs aside, from one player to another; I have always and still do look up to you Xacius. I have since that match I mentioned in my last post. Even though you can be a fuzzy bunny.

[Xacius]

That's completely up to you, but I don't know what you think I can do about this problem. I certainly don't have any amazing and original ideas on how to combat something I can't envision yet. Being as this is a computer game I don't see how I can do anything but sit idly. 

Sometimes that's the best option.  My post was primarily in response to your statement here:

 

The devs have noted our concerns, and have made it vocal that this particular topic also concerns some of them as well. As far as I can see, no real issue has presented itself yet to the grandfathering of weapons. Trying to fix something that has yet to present itself as a serious problem may inadvertently cause more problems in the future. Let's see how this all works out, and then combat anything that becomes concerning about this topic. 

 

 

All petty jabs aside, from one player to another; I have always and still do look up to you Xacius. I have since that match I mentioned in my last post. Even though you can be a fuzzy bunny.

 

I've calmed down a bit since early 2013, wouldn't be in OMNI if that weren't the case.  As for the forums, I've been trolling on here since TPG 3, so don't take it personally.  

Edited by Xacius, 11 August 2016 - 09:44 PM.

[claisolais]

Refund MC is not a very bad idea, but I doubt if they refund me my 65 mechs, which I havent spend any MC on buying the mechs themselves.

 

Refund with HC? What the hack do I need 2 million hc for?

 

And, if the reset button is to make Hawken become Howken, PLS remove that button.

[Charcoal]

Could there be completely unranked/no MMR rooms which allow Grandfather mechs?

 

Heck, give even newbs the Grandfather loadouts in those rooms?

 

No ranking, no MMR tracking, just a room

Edited by Charcoal, 13 August 2016 - 06:41 PM.

[Hyginos]

Optimist's version:

 

The reason Tiggs said we would be able to keep our weapons is that they will be re-adding that customization before the PC patch is brought to console parity.

[Ukabix]

Optimist's version:

 

The reason Tiggs said we would be able to keep our weapons is that they will be re-adding that customization before the PC patch is brought to console parity.

Ok, so how about an hc prize for killing legacy mechs for new players as a mean to sweeten the skill gap?

[Miscellaneous]

Optimist's version:

 

The reason Tiggs said we would be able to keep our weapons is that they will be re-adding that customization before the PC patch is brought to console parity.

 

This would be nice. 

 

Tiggs did mention some Q.O.L/bug mashing changes might be made to the PC edition before we get the full console port. Maybe to lay the groundwork for the full update?

[teeth_03]

Which raises the question, how do you think they will change how customization works if they bring it back?

[_incitatus]

Which raises the question, how do you think they will change how customization works if they bring it back?

 

I don't think it will change except for the UI.

 

It makes sense to wait until they work this issue out before they push the update to PC.  If I had to guess, it is probably one of the main reasons for the wait.

[teeth_03]

Oh, I would be willing to bet they will change it.

I only hope they will introduce shared items/internals.

[StubbornPuppet]

With the way the wind is blowing: increased grind, expensive real-money prices to avoid being stuck in inferior G1 mechs... and all that goes along with that, about the only way I'm going to keep playing this game at all after a future "platform parity" update is if I DO get to keep everything I have now, just like it is.

 

I'm pretty happy with what I have in Hawken right now.  I have come to have zero interest in going through longer grinds and constant pressure to cough up real cash just to get back to something sort-of like what I already worked hard for years to have.

 

And maybe this game doesn't need me.  That's okay too.

[Bratwurst]

So what exactly is going to happen to my beloved Reaper? Or Cupcake?

 

Oh god... not Fred...

Edited by Bratwurst, 20 August 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[_incitatus]

So what exactly is going to happen to my beloved Reaper? Or Cupcake?

Oh god... not Fred...

You don't want to know...

(Potentially nothing, but they could possibly get the console treatment. )

[Bratwurst]

You don't want to know...

(Potentially nothing, but they could possibly get the console treatment. )

 

Console treatment... meaning...

[_incitatus]

Console treatment... meaning...

One primary weapon and locked internals and items.

However, it has been stated that they don't want to bring this to the PC version. It is suspected that the console versions are lacking customization due to deadlines and that it will be fixed in the future.

(You are aware that howken was released on xbone and ps4?)

Edited by _incitatus, 20 August 2016 - 12:17 PM.

[Bratwurst]

One primary weapon and locked internals and items.

However, it has been stated that they don't want to bring this to the PC version. It is suspected that the console versions are lacking customization due to deadlines and that it will be fixed in the future.

(You are aware that howken was released on xbone and ps4?)

 

I don't follow console news, but I am aware.

 

So this means that mechs will only have a SINGLE weapon? I main Reaper with Slug Rifle most of the time anyway, and my Berserker is always on Vulcan

[DieselCat]

I think that means there is a possibility that the console version might get ported over to the PC...which I wouldn't want to see happen. 

[Bratwurst]

I think that means there is a possibility that the console version might get ported over to the PC...which I wouldn't want to see happen. 

 

If that happens then we can probably assume the worst.

[_incitatus]

I don't follow console news, but I am aware.

So this means that mechs will only have a SINGLE weapon? I main Reaper with Slug Rifle most of the time anyway, and my Berserker is always on Vulcan

This is how the console version was released. Mechs come with one primary and locked items and internals, reportedly because customization was not working at launch.

[Epsilon_Knight]

As a guy who bought multiple weapons starting out, and cosmetics on top, grandfathering weapons is a really bad idea.  There is nothing like Hawkins Brawler (yet) in the updated version.  AR infil is way more noob friendly than EOC, flak scout moreso than heat scout.  AR infil in particular is flat out better at anything other than massive spike damage ganks and area denial.  I'd give everyone a guess as to which weapon is more popular among rank 6 infiltrators.

 

Now, if RLD wants to re-enable those weapons when they're added back in (since we're getting the customization back, right?), at zero cost to the people who already unlocked them, that would make sense. Otherwise, you're going to segment the playerbase into haves and have-nots.  And it's going to be really off-putting to new players when they get killed by stuff that is unavailable to them for an undetermined amount of time.  "Be a beta player to win."  SA Brawler, RPR Reaper, Slug Reaper, Flak Scout, Miniflak and SMC Vanguard are SURE to piss people off.

 

As much as I love the options and as much as I don't like some of the upcoming changes, grandfathering in weapons (to speak nothing of internals, orblord salt with composite armor anyone?) is a BAD IDEA.

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 29 August 2016 - 12:43 PM.