146 replies to this topic

[ArchMech]

this discussion is moving in the right direction, huzzah!

all im saying is its SOMEWHAT feasible to support/sustain/improve legacy format AND STILL expand your horizons

[Nept]

Combine all of this with an official request that vets explain their legacy mechs when asked about (or raged about) . . .

 

"Because I'm amazing and handsome and modest," will be my go-to answer.

[Tayloe]

We'll discuss this internally. It's certainly a topic of concern even among the development team. We'd rather figure this out before we prepare the re-launch of the PC version.

 

Please keep discussing this on the forums here; your feedback is super important and we would rather make an informed decision that benefits all players in Hawken.

 

Thank you for posting on the forum, it is always good to hear from the devs! This is a tough situation, and I don't see any way to make everyone happy. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try though! There has to be some way to compensate players that spent money on in game items, but if it results in the game failing that is a hollow victory. Do your best to make the game fun and sustainable, compensating veterans will have to come second unfortunately.

[pewper]

Reset all accounts

Everyone has access to the same mech / weapon combos, no special treatment for pc vets

Tally cost of garage, refund as HC

Done

[Proctor]

As long as I can keep my Vulcan and tow combo on my berserker, ill be happy.

[ARCH3TYP3]

We'll discuss this internally. It's certainly a topic of concern even among the development team. We'd rather figure this out before we prepare the re-launch of the PC version.
 
Please keep discussing this on the forums here; your feedback is super important and we would rather make an informed decision that benefits all players in Hawken.

I am strongly in favor of keeping our "Legacy Mech Loadouts", as I have stated.
I would also like to mention that part of the underlying cause for our desire to keep/receive these mechs is the fear and anxiety over the proposed changes as well as the many unknown variables.
I must say, with all due respect to the development team, that what HAS been revealed, in some cases, sounds quite disheartening. There are many serious, loyal players who love and support this game who mainly pilot mechs that are either going away altogether (Assault), or whose functionality and playability is proposed to be overhauled (Grenadier, Infiltrator, Vanguard, Scout et al) but not necessarily improved...based on incomplete and contradictory information; The concept of only one available primary weapon, yet the possibility of upgrades .... eventually (?)
(There is much to be said about how this truly devastates the versatility, usefulness and fun of piloting these mechs)
Since changes from the PC version that we all play have apparently been implemented in the console version, and platform parity has been announced as forthcoming, we who are in favor of keeping these mechs simply want to hang on to these proven Loadouts in hopes of a continued enjoyable experience.
However, it also seems implied from your post that some things are not set in stone about this issue, which leaves a lot of unanswered questions.
Details and more information, provided by the development team would greatly be appreciated at this point.

I also like the idea of a Veteran or Beta tag or badge which identifies those of us who have been here before the relaunch and who own the legacy mech Loadouts.
EA did something similar with Battlefield 2 players who then bought Battlefield 2142. It worked quite well.

[ArchMech]

we need not "vet or beta tags", forum badges maybe, perhaps an in game "name border" like how nosgoth or something similar but that sounds clich�

theres alpha and beta skins, which if those are going anywhere, saying right now thats a bad idea

i do like the idea of a "veteran skin" tho since i dont think u can get the beta skin anymore, or can you?

anyway as far as the timeline of things is considered, theres a skin for alpha, theres a skin for beta, but theres no skin for everything between then and the "re-release" which would make for a good veteran skin!

 

edit:

query, you can do this with limited amounts of effort ya? should do this for us! do it plz?

Edited by [email protected]/ArcanicFlame, 24 June 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[Hyginos]

forum badges maybe

 

 

Seriously though just spend 30 seconds drawing up a player icon in paint and give it to open beta pilots. ezpz.

 

Heck, I'll even do it for you:

 

 

Blam. Done. Though I wouldn't complain about an open beta skin of course.

[ThirdEyE]

I like the idea of an indicator for legacy accounts on the scoreboard and/or killcam.  A skin wouldn't work so well as a sole solution since it's optional to use, but it would be nice to have this as a "thank you" to the people who have stuck around.

 

Like others have said, it's a bit difficult to gauge whether legacy mechs would be fair to use in public servers post-relaunch without knowing what changes are being made to the game, specifically in terms of what mechs will be available.  The combinations of class, primary, secondary, and ability, make up a lot of possible mechs with the current content, and even more so when weapons that are currently only primary will also be secondary.  Many of the current loadouts could certainly be reduced based on overly similar primary weapons, since some combination of the AR, SMC, and Vulcan are shared on the Assault, Bruiser, Berzerker, CRT, Vanguard.  Also, some combination of the SA-Hawkins, AM-SAR, and Hawkins-RPR are shared on the Reaper and Sharpshooter, and since they don't have much difference in playstyle (mostly stats) these could also be reduced to a single option per mech.

 

The problem for me lies in changing distinct weapon options, which are the secondary weapons in most cases, but many primaries also define the mech playstyle.  The difference between Miniflak and Flak on the Scout is significant, as is the difference between Rev-GL, Vulcan, and HEAT on Grenadier.  The same is true for Raider (all primaries), Infiltrator (all primaries), Brawler (all primaries), Predator (all primaries), and the list goes on.  Secondaries pose an even greater change in playstyle, as is obvious in the case of the Assault vs. G2-Assault.  The choice between pure sustain dps and a mix of sustain + burst is a no-brainer for most players (burst master race).  Although the balance between the Assault and G2-Assault could be improved with some numbers tweaks, it's the playstyle that attracts most players to their preference of mech.

 

I'm not strictly opposed to having some legacy mechs become unavailable in public servers, but I feel that if they are similar enough to mechs that will be available for the new players, then they should be allowed in public servers with the "legacy" indicator.  However, in a perfect world, I would prefer keeping some version of the current mechs for use in private servers at the very least, and hopefully there would be a way to use these same mechs in public servers just with the restricted weapons filtered out.

[CounterlogicMan]

Having LEGACY in big bright letters in front of the name of the mech in the killcam would clearly indicate that the player using that mech got it through special means. 

 

Things like this are pretty common in games that have special events/really long histories with special item rewards. Look to MMOs in regards to this. 

 

As for balance, can't really say until we see the stats/loadouts of the new patch. My guess is it won't be as unbalanced as people claim to know it will be. If it is possible maybe create a build for the PC that includes the upcoming changes and have temporary servers on it to test out the changes with the whole community? Wouldn't mind if it was a buggy mess, as long as we could see potential balance changes and how legacy mechs interact with the new mechs.

 

The real question is......how do we balance X-Ployt on the console?

Edited by CounterlogicMan, 24 June 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

In a perfect world, I would prefer keeping some version of the current mechs for use in private servers at the very least, and hopefully there would be a way to use these same mechs in public servers just with the restricted weapons filtered out.

 

It comes down to DM/CM (datamodel configuration management).  Can servers instantiate different datamodels and rulesets?  Will (can) Reloaded offer "Hardmode" servers where Console players can play PC players with the Classic Hawken^™ loadouts?

[Darktim300]

To be fair, if they have re-balanced the damage at all from what it is now eoc infil will be one of the better mechs again.

[nepacaka]

I think about this.
Devs let you all of you legacy mech. i.e., you no need buy a new assualt actually, because you already have "better" 3-weapons-assault. But what if Reloaded want to force you buy a new mech? or How?

I think, that they just can nerfed legacy mech or weapon loadout if compare with new G1 and G2 mech. After this, you can play at your legacy mechs "just because". and now you just have 15(or more) useless mechs in hangar which you never use, cuz ordinary and G2 mechs just stronger. So, they just have camos and weapons which you buy and those mechs nothing more than a "reminder of old days"

Maybe really better way will be "merge" old-brawler with new-brawler. you lost your SA and Vul-D on your brawler, but your can save your camo/parts on it. And it will be G1 brawler, without any possible nerf.

Edited by nepacaka, 24 June 2016 - 11:46 PM.

[Shade__]

Maybe really better way will be "merge" old-brawler with new-brawler. you lost your SA and Vul-D on your brawler, but your can save your camo/parts on it. And it will be G1 brawler, without any possible nerf.

This i would be ok with 

I love my flak scout and all but i'm willing to give it up for balance

Edited by Shade__, 25 June 2016 - 12:15 AM.

[ARCH3TYP3]

I think about this.
Devs let you all of you legacy mech. i.e., you no need buy a new assualt actually, because you already have "better" 3-weapons-assault. But what if Reloaded want to force you buy a new mech? or How?

I think, that they just can nerfed legacy mech or weapon loadout if compare with new G1 and G2 mech. After this, you can play at your legacy mechs "just because". and now you just have 15(or more) useless mechs in hangar which you never use, cuz ordinary and G2 mechs just stronger. So, they just have camos and weapons which you buy and those mechs nothing more than a "reminder of old days"

Maybe really better way will be "merge" old-brawler with new-brawler. you lost your SA and Vul-D on your brawler, but your can save your camo/parts on it. And it will be G1 brawler, without any possible nerf.

 

I hear you.

Many of us have asked the devs for more details of both proposed changes and those already implemented.

I suppose all of these suggestions are moot at this point as they are based on speculation upon speculation. 

We don't know if the "Legacy Mech Loadouts" will be inferior, superior, unbalanced or unfair as compared to their newer counterparts. Therefore, we also don't know which or what needs to be nerfed or buffed in order to achieve future balance, or if development, initiative and the will to do so will even exist at that point.

Many unknown variables and questions. Unfortunately, it seems we are still in a holding pattern.

[DieselCat]

My gut tells me that the changes being made to the game for the console version is the main concern and RLD will react to the PC version after they determine how successful Hawken is on the consoles.

I think if it pans out well they will just duplicate the setups on the PC or just scrape the PC version altogether. I don't really believe they feel the PC game is that important to them.

Though I hope I'm completely mistaken 

[JackVandal]

The real question is......how do we balance X-Ployt on the console?

We don't, we die.

[Rainbow_Sheep]

Mechxit vs remain

too soon :(

[ATX22]

If console players and PC players are eventually going to be playing against / with each other on the same servers, I'm against grandfathering legacy mechs.  Whatever mech and cosmetic combinations that don't carry over into the new version, Reloaded could just refund MC spent on them if there's sufficient record keeping to track that, otherwise, they could refund the HC equivalent if they're not feeling generous.  I don't know the EULA by heart, but I'm fairly sure it leaves them with the ability to do what they want for any reason they feel justifies their actions even when it comes to paid content.

 

If PC gamers are to be kept separate from console gamers, I'd be hesitant to keep legacy mechs in the game, mainly because of perception issues that Hawken already has (P2W & hacker-central for starters).  But with Hawken effectively starting over, what better time than now to hit the reset button?

[teeth_03]

I say refund everyone's MC/HC and hit the reset button.

[Miscellaneous]

I say refund everyone's MC/HC and hit the reset button.

 

No.

 

I want to keep my XP. I want to keep my level 30 pilot badge. I want to keep my Marvin killer repair drones.

 

I want to keep my shiny, Fred chassis predator, which, as we now know, will be impossible to make in the "new" hawken due to chassis limitations - which is a bad idea btw, that's like the main cosmetic part people want to change.

 

This is a bad move. How many exclusive parts, camos, and patterns will be lost if that button is hit?

[comic_sans]

I say refund everyone's MC/HC and hit the reset button.

 

MY NEW NEMESIS

[TheButtSatisfier]

I say refund everyone's MC/HC and hit the reset button.

 

If we could keep exclusive skins and icons too then I'd agree. I don't mind leveling up mechs again.

[Shade__]

If we could keep exclusive skins and icons too then I'd agree. I don't mind leveling up mechs again.

i'm willing to restart so long as i keep my cosmetics. That's all i need to keep.

Edited by Shade__, 27 June 2016 - 05:22 PM.

[DeeRax]

If the monster c-class with breacher & TOW and G2 AR Infil with 600HP are actual things, I can't possibly see how legacy mechs in any form would be remotely overpowered.

(Barring adjustments to weapon stats, which we can probably assume has occurred to some degree or another).

[6ixxer]

I would like to see a matrix off all the old mechs with their 3 loadouts vs the closest matching mech in the new system.

Then we can see which loadouts will not exist.

Then you make G2 and G3 mechs to fill those holes.

 

Then you discuss with the community before converting old players garages to have all the new combos that they had already in their garage.

Still needs to consider the custom chassis options, but I think this may be a starting point.

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

 

EDIT: I am willing to convert via this method if you can handle the alternate chassis options that I have in place (eg my Zerknician as in avatar)

Edited by 6ixxer, 27 June 2016 - 07:58 PM.

[tropt]

I say refund everyone's MC/HC and hit the reset button.

 

Agree

[ATX22]

If the monster c-class with breacher & TOW and G2 AR Infil with 600HP are actual things, I can't possibly see how legacy mechs in any form would be remotely overpowered.

(Barring adjustments to weapon stats, which we can probably assume has occurred to some degree or another).

 

It's all in perception.  Tired of telling new players that the scout isn't as OP as they think it is?  Get ready to keep explaining why grandfathered mechs aren't P2W , OP, etc. etc.

 

At the end of the day, it's Reloaded's call, and it should boil down to what's best for Hawken, not necessarily what's most in line with what the few remaining Hawken faithful will be happy with (if the former and latter are mutually exclusive).  Issues like these are why I still feel that ADH/meteor opened up the in-game cash shop way too early and why I don't throw insane amounts of money at F2P games in "early access".

[teeth_03]

The fact of the matter is, not resetting is going to add more work for them and make it harder to balance. If there is absolutely no way to convince them to change the direction they are heading in, it makes 0 sense to not go full in for everyone.

Hell, if all of the mechs that the new players will have access to will be new mechs, we will need to unlock them all again anyway.

As for cosmetics, if they aren't changing the cosmetic system too much, then yes, just keep them so all the players with exclusive skins won't get their panties in a bunch.

If you guys want a larger player base to play with, just suck it up and deal with it.

[Oxxnard]

We could always just flag matches as "Free for all" and "Standard". So people know what they're getting into. No need to take away but there is also no need to ruin some unsuspecting noobies day. 

[harmless_kittens]

So let me get this straight, from the "reset everything" crowd.  All the stuff we (my son's account and mine) got for getting lo level 30, gone.  All the weapon loadouts we  got for several mechs, gone.  All the paint schemes, body parts, and cosmetic features we spent cash money on (especially my son) - gone.  All the MC we purchased (over $60 at this point) - gone.  

 

All in the interest of making new players who have not spent one dime on the game not get upset?  What are the guarantees that 6 months after the update the game won't be back to 200 active players worldwide again?

 

Sorry, but unless we get a full refund on all MC we have purchased, they will lose 2 players from our household.  Even if the full refund happens I'm still going to be very skeptical about starting over.  This is just a TERRIBLE way to "reward" their loyal players who have supported them in this way.

 

Furthermore, a "total reset" will lead to the most imbalanced matches we have ever seen in this game.  Imagine taking a 2500 MMR account and resetting it back to 1400 or whatever with the same base mech all the new players start with.  MM throws us all in together, and its a veritable graveyard of newbie corpses.  How is THIS a good thing?  Why would new players stay in that environment?

Edited by harmless_kittens, 30 June 2016 - 05:32 AM.

[teeth_03]

I unlocked every weapon for every mech, so I myself knows how tedious it was.

I however would rather play this game with some fresh players (hopefully larger amounts of players), and see this game move forward, rather then playing with the same old grumps with elitist attitudes who think their way is the only way and see them stomp over all the new players with the fancy mechs that no one else can get.

That being said, if it's possible that they can see the records of anything people purchased with real money, then yes, it should all be refunded so we can use that money to invest in the new stuff.

As for HC, I'm all for making it fair for everyone and giving everyone a fresh start.

[harmless_kittens]

"I however would rather play this game with some fresh players (hopefully larger amounts of players), and see this game move forward, rather then playing with the same old grumps with elitist attitudes who think their way is the only way and see them stomp over all the new players with the fancy mechs that no one else can get."

 

But if MMR also resets, won't this problem for new players be WORSE?  

 

Assuming MMR did not reset and they kept the "Star system" so that new players were just placed with players close to their own MMR, they'd be playing against only other newer/less-skilled players (or smurfs, unfortunately).  Granted, those other players might have a different weapons loadout, but skill wise they'd me on roughly the same level.

 

But if MMR also resets, then all you have at the time of reset are "3 Star" matches, where everybody plays everybody, except with the same mech/weapon loadouts.  Now you have both smurfs AND 2500 MMR vets stomping the new players, which you complained about above.  How, exactly, is this a better experience for the new player?

 

Since we don't even know what, if anything, they have decided to reset yet, I think we should be very hesitant to throw terms around like "total restart", which would also mean a reset of MMR levels (a very bad thing IMHO).

[ATX22]

So let me get this straight, from the "reset everything" crowd. All the stuff we (my son's account and mine) got for getting lo level 30, gone. All the weapon loadouts we got for several mechs, gone. All the paint schemes, body parts, and cosmetic features we spent cash money on (especially my son) - gone. All the MC we purchased (over $60 at this point) - gone.

All in the interest of making new players who have not spent one dime on the game not get upset? What are the guarantees that 6 months after the update the game won't be back to 200 active players worldwide again?

Sorry, but unless we get a full refund on all MC we have purchased, they will lose 2 players from our household. Even if the full refund happens I'm still going to be very skeptical about starting over. This is just a TERRIBLE way to "reward" their loyal players who have supported them in this way.

Furthermore, a "total reset" will lead to the most imbalanced matches we have ever seen in this game. Imagine taking a 2500 MMR account and resetting it back to 1400 or whatever with the same base mech all the new players start with. MM throws us all in together, and its a veritable graveyard of newbie corpses. How is THIS a good thing? Why would new players stay in that environment?

Didn't you join up around or after the point in time when Reloaded officially took over? For a game that has been and still is listed as "early access"? Resets are a risk you take for a failed then bought-out early access beta f2p game. Did you honestly expect Reloaded to steer Hawken in the exact same direction ADH/meteor did before they imploded?

[Arkhaun]

 

 

 

 

 Though I wouldn't complain about an open beta skin of course.

 

[Arkhaun]

 

 

Furthermore, a "total reset" will lead to the most imbalanced matches we have ever seen in this game.  Imagine taking a 2500 MMR account and resetting it back to 1400 or whatever with the same base mech all the new players start with.  MM throws us all in together, and its a veritable graveyard of newbie corpses.  How is THIS a good thing?  Why would new players stay in that environment?

 

 

this will happen to some degree, as soon as we get our relaunch.With our keybound and headset fireteams.

 

Don't worry though, reloaded gave xboners a week before ps4 then i assume a week after that is relunch sorry, thinking of relaunching into season 2 of "git gud fuzzy bunny" is making me salivate (season 1 being right before Great Silence 1, when i told people to play it on steam).

 

Jokes aside we all here already have tribal knowledge that we can't unlearn, but what the console kiddies get is a few weeks ahead of us in the updated version

 

P.S. we all know origin, wreckage, and bazaar. These maps will brutalize new players, who will think we can shoot through walls and will die to our leap of faith alpha strikes and cross-map manually detonated sniper TOWs

Edited by Arkhaun, 30 June 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[teeth_03]

You guys act like MMR reset will be the end of the world. The whole point of a fresh start is to give everyone a clean slate, it will eventually balance itself out again once the current high MMR players get their MMR back up.

 

Or are you guys worried that some of the "fresh meat" might start to eclipse your own MMR?

 

Of course, I couldn't give less ****s about my MMR

Edited by teeth_03, 30 June 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[ReversusRex]

Not sure how much sense this would make from a financial standpoint, but I think a solution that would please most users is a reset of all weapon, internal, item load-outs in exchange for meteor credits, regardless of what currency was used to obtain them. Cosmetic changes should be left as is, but our current mechs should not be made into G1s, or otherwise inferior mechs that will become obsolete. Any mech we have "prestiged" should become a G2. A full MC reward for the exact value of the items might present too heavy a loss, but I am sure most players would be pleased to recieve any substantial amount of MC as a reward for being loyal to the game, such as a $25 amount or whatever. 

 

EDIT: Sorry I know this is an old topic but I posted because I feel it is still relevant. 

Edited by ReversusRex, 03 August 2016 - 07:04 AM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

You guys act like MMR reset will be the end of the world. The whole point of a fresh start is to give everyone a clean slate, it will eventually balance itself out again once the current high MMR players get their MMR back up.

 

Or are you guys worried that some of the "fresh meat" might start to eclipse your own MMR?

 

Are you even reading the thread?

 

The concern is that if a new patch is released at the same time a MMR reset occurs, then there's going to be a large influx of newbies that are going to be in the same matches as very skilled players. That means that the system that should prevent those newbies from being annihilated match after match won't be functioning until MMR normalizes - and that will happen during the critical first few weeks after Hawken's update where initial perceptions matter. If newbies are consistently not having a good time due to non-existent matchmaker balance, then new player retention will suffer.

 

In short, the issue isn't that MMR will eventually balance. It's that it won't be balanced during a critical time for PC Hawken's reemergence into the gaming space.

 

There has been no expressed concern by any high MMR player that they are afraid that their magic number will be smaller than someone else's after MMR normalizes. In fact, most highly skilled players want more players at their level in the general population so that matches are more balanced.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 03 August 2016 - 04:16 PM.

[Xacius]

Are you even reading the thread?

 

The concern is that if a new patch is released at the same time a MMR reset occurs, then there's going to be a large influx of newbies that are going to be in the same match as very skilled players. That means that the system that should prevent those newbies from being annihilated match after match won't be functioning until MMR normalizes - and that will happen during the critical first few weeks after Hawken's update where initial perceptions matter. If newbies are consistently not having a good time due to non-existent matchmaker balance, then new player retention will suffer.

 

In short, the issue isn't that MMR will eventually balance. It's that it won't be balanced during a critical time for PC Hawken's reemergence into the gaming space.

 

There has been no expressed concern by any high MMR player that they are afraid that their magic number will be smaller than someone else's after MMR normalizes. In fact, most highly skilled players want more players at their level in the general population so that matches are more balanced.

I can't believe that people still have trouble understanding this concept.  There actually is a point to the MMR system beyond e-peen farming.