146 replies to this topic

[Nept]

I'd most likely be OK with this option, personally.
Good luck with allllll of those transactions though.

 

I mean, it'd probably just be 60 Crafty smurfs.

[nepacaka]

i mean, make a compensation for people, who spent real money to open weapon. I do not think that someone will be against this. and i'm sure, not so many ppl actually open weapons with MC

[teeth_03]

They're not taking your weapons.

They are just removing them from your current mechs and giving you new mechs to put those weapons on.

So it's like, free mechs for everyone!

I will let someone else take care of that meme.

[DeeRax]

and i'm sure, not so many ppl actually open weapons with MC

 

I have one or two out of laziness, but no, not the majority of them.

[comic_sans]

Grandfathering cosmetics?  Ok!  No added abilities, but I get to be a special snowflake, and I mean that quite literally.

 

Grandfathering weapons?  Not ok.  I'm just plain stronger and more versatile and nobody new ever can be!

 

Lots of weird decisions going on here.  It's like the exact opposite of the fun provided by the weapon glitch.

Edited by comic_sans (impotent frustration), 22 June 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[talon70]

If they take away things that people paid real $ for, that info would spill out into the console worlds and then who would want to spend money and buy anything from an indian giver that may take it back if they get a fuzzy up there and feel like it.

 

Maybe mechs are  "grandfathered" now, but after they milk the console markets and the pc version goes to "games for windows" only all the old "grandfathered" mechs will be gone and they will say 'oops sorry'. I am often cynical but have really tried to be optimistic about the future hawken and give rld the benefit of the doubt. I have been waiting to be able to recommend this game again to my friends. Waiting and waiting. I remember telling someone "it was just bought, they say they are going to be open and transparent and yada yada ... I will let you know". That was many months ago.

 

Integrity is extremely important in business. You should always honest and forthcoming with the people you do business with and expect, no demand, the same. I also go by my gut feeling a lot and it was right on target this time. It doesn't feel  so good now regarding this situation either.

[nepacaka]

Lots of weird decisions going on here.  It's like the exact opposite of the fun provided by the weapon glitch.

Oh, yeah, we forgot about it. If ppl have one weapon, they can't cause weapon glitch. ez pz

Edited by nepacaka, 22 June 2016 - 02:55 PM.

[crockrocket]

Oh, yeah, we forgot about it. If ppl have one weapon, they can't cause weapon glitch. ez pz

 

You can still weapon glitch if you only have one weapon on a mech

[Pleasure_Mortar]

i mean, make a compensation for people, who spent real money to open weapon. I do not think that someone will be against this. 

Well, I am.

I'm really grateful that RLD allows us to keep the loadouts and torsos and it pisses me really off that the know-it-all "veterans" scream for old mechs to be  restricted without even knowing what RLD has planned for Hawken in detail. *

Now critizing RLD for not even telling us that they are under an NDA is one thing, but what has been going on here in terms of harebrained suggestions and speculations since the console releases where announced and Tiggs answered some questions is plain and simple ridiculous.

 

*There might be G2 and even G3 variants featuring excat the same primaries we will be able to select in one "grandfathered mech.

[nepacaka]

You can still weapon glitch if you only have one weapon on a mech

meh...

[Flifang]

I'm going to maintain my opinion that many players who see the grandfathered weapons will immediately ask or look for them in their mech store or garage. Which, when they see that they can't be purchased at all; hopefully they won't scream P2W but will probably scream hacker if anything. Especially considering that if they bring this issue up in a match or on the PC forums, they'll probably get lectured pretty hard by people who will know their fuzzy bunny about this. Like the actual players in the game that sparked their rage over this. Plus, the PC side already has a pretty extensive amount of info available on its forums that anyone can access assuming they know what words to put into the search bar.

 

I don't know about you guys, but if I saw a player with something in game that I knew I couldn't get through the in game store I would sooner assume they were hacking or exploiting than Paying Money to gain an advantage over me.

[DeeRax]

I don't know about you guys, but if I saw a player with something in game that I knew I couldn't get through the in game store I would sooner assume they were hacking or exploiting than Paying Money to gain an advantage over me.

I would probably think to myself at first, "Oh, that must be some open beta thing. Cool, I guess."

Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 22 June 2016 - 04:13 PM.

[ARCH3TYP3]

As much as I'll miss my loadouts, I agree that there shouldn't be any grandfathering.

 

 

In light of the money, effort, organizing, and promotion  (ie TIME) invested by the playerbase in this game over the years, I think that allowing "veteran" players to keep their loadouts is both right and fair.

 

With an influx of newer players, mmr balance issues should take care of themselves. If the 200-300 players with legacy loadouts eventually cause an issue with what is then considered an unfair advantage in gameplay/firepower against the newer players, we can just cite their own use of scanners as justification.

 

But seriously, the game seems like it will change in many ways between now and then. We can't know if it's worth projecting that far ahead. For now, I am viewing this as a kind of "thank you" for those who love the game.

 

Patch(es) forthcoming, right?

[CZeroFive]

We'll discuss this internally. It's certainly a topic of concern even among the development team. We'd rather figure this out before we prepare the re-launch of the PC version.

 

Please keep discussing this on the forums here; your feedback is super important and we would rather make an informed decision that benefits all players in Hawken.

[Superkamikazee]

Well, I am.

I'm really grateful that RLD allows us to keep the loadouts and torsos and it pisses me really off that the know-it-all "veterans" scream for old mechs to be  restricted without even knowing what RLD has planned for Hawken in detail. *

Now critizing RLD for not even telling us that they are under an NDA is one thing, but what has been going on here in terms of harebrained suggestions and speculations since the console releases where announced and Tiggs answered some questions is plain and simple ridiculous.

 

*There might be G2 and even G3 variants featuring excat the same primaries we will be able to select in one "grandfathered mech.

 

 

No one's screaming, relax. Please consider that even if Hawken became successful, success for a niche game like hawken (PC) is a player base of like maybe 2-3k players concurrently. The odds of those players running into legacy adversaries (200-300 active atm) are quite high. That means non legacy players have a decent chance of potentially not having a good time against a legacy load out, wondering if maybe they're facing off against a hacker, or just confused why they don't have access to that load out. It's totally understandable to not want to lose all that HC, or worse MC, but maybe there needs to be a compensation plan to start Hawken Reloaded. Personally, I'm just thinking consistency is best for Hawken and it's future, and being honest, it's in Reloaded's best interest to simply refund HC and MC to users accounts, start fresh and move forward.

 

BUT, that would be difficult to accomplish, so the easy route is to let the remaining player base keep their load outs, and whatever happens to the game on PC is what it is. It's clear the console versions are where RLD is hunting for cash and success now. 

[tropt]

As much as I'll miss my loadouts, I agree that there shouldn't be any grandfathering.

Agreed

[DieselCat]

I'm so....    

 

Just don't take my Cupcake 

[JackVandal]

Its been mentioned here, but i like the idea of grandfathered mechs being multiple copies in the new G2/G3 system, it allows us to keep what we already have for the most part, while not having "op old stuff"

[MomOw]

We'll discuss this internally. It's certainly a topic of concern even among the development team. We'd rather figure this out before we prepare the re-launch of the PC version.

 

Please keep discussing this on the forums here; your feedback is super important and we would rather make an informed decision that benefits all players in Hawken.

 

IIRC reloaded already organized a poll for developpments in hawken, I think that once you've defined a few set of options it would be a great move to make the players of old hawken vote.

 

Mechxit vs remain 

[crockrocket]

We'll discuss this internally. It's certainly a topic of concern even among the development team. We'd rather figure this out before we prepare the re-launch of the PC version.

 

Please keep discussing this on the forums here; your feedback is super important and we would rather make an informed decision that benefits all players in Hawken.

 

Our discussions might be helped if we had more details to go on.

[Shade__]

Our discussions might be helped if we had more details to go on.

I'm clueless and starting to get fed up with it.

[Sorroritas]

What if Reloaded return you all MC amount which you spent to open weapons, and all HC?

you can spend it after patch for buy new camos and thrusters, new bodyparts, and spent HC for items/internals for all new mechs. is it not good solution?

 

I wouldn't have any problem with this happening but I actually don't think they'll do that.

 

Anyways I can't see the problem of grandfathered mechs yet. The patch/update is still miles away and we don't know yet what exactly is going to get changed and what is actually going to happen.

 

I find it funny that we are already mentioning how grandfathered mechs will be unbalanced when they just stripped weapons off of EVERY MECH and mumbo-jumboed them around and added abominations like dual miniflak and dual seekers. Oh and talking about balance... What about G2 and G3 mechs that are actually STRONGER/BETTER (stat wise?) than G1 mechs? Really? Nobody is taking offense in that but yeah grandfathered mechs are totally going to break the game balance... WTF!

 

30+ new mechs my ass. I guess it's probably just going to be different loadouts for all mechs with only one primary weapon.

So instead of buying a scout with 9923 hc or 948 mc and buying the 3 weapons for 4130 hc or 512 mc each you are going to buy a Scout G1 with Heat, Scout G2 with Miniflak and Scout G3 with Flak as primary weapons.

The only significant difference will be:

Scout + 2 weapons: 9923hc + 2x 4130hc = 18183 hc. 948 mc + 2x 512mc = 1972 mc.

Scout G1 + Scout G2 + Scout G3 = 29769 hc. 948 mc x3 = 2844 mc.

(Note that this is only for demonstration purposes. I don't know if we will get scouts with flak at all. Also we are getting variants anyways)

You should understand what is happening here.

In the end "noobz" will have to grind or pay more for the same thing. Which is affecting balance the same way as a noob with a blank starter mech playing against a veteran with full loadout IN THE CURRENT STATE.

 

That being said let me propose something: I will happily give up my grandfathered mechs but only after RLD balanced the game with those 30+ mechs added in. (See you in 30 years then...)

 

Last but not least I think it is still way to early to bring up the problem of veteran mechs getting integrated into the game.

Leave it as it is for now. Get the console versions up and running (which don't have any veteran mechs) and before the pc update they can still see how all those "new" mechs actually play out balance wise. After that they can still decide what they're going to do.

 

1. Getting hc (probably not mc. I have no idea of mc refund would be possible. But mc could be converted to hc for mech/weapon/cosmetics? purchases) back and removing the mech.

2. Leave the veteran mech as it is (I'd be ok with that but noobs would probably complain, (Again this depends on if the alternate loadouts will be added as "different" mech) and furthermore future balancing would be problematic as mechs might be linked in some way with each other. (Think of the Flak-Scout nerf which also nerfed the Brawler))

3. Remove the mechs without further notice making a good portion of the community angry.

4. ??

 

I'd be ok with either 1. or 2. (or maybe 4.?)

Competitive scene has no problems with grandfathered mechs at all. Seeing how certain mech and item combinations are already banned in comp. play legacy mechs could be banned anyways. Or added to a legacy mech league.

 

In the end we will again have to do this thing we are used to do since we started playing the game. Be patient and wait. (And hope it is worth the wait hurr hurr)

Also: Baba Ji.

Edited by Sorroritas, 23 June 2016 - 04:17 AM.

[_incitatus]

Our discussions might be helped if we had more details to go on.

 

This.  Hard to have an informed discussion when it is all based on speculation.

[Hyginos]

This.  Hard to have an informed discussion when it is all based on speculation.

 

This is true, but I also understand the logic of letting us guess for a bit so they can gauge what we consider the best and worst case scenarios before actually releasing anything.

 

Important to note that this assumes that meaningful importance will be given to the opinions of the community, which considering the scanner additions, double seeker nief, b3ar vanguard, and turret gren may not be a particularly good assumption.

[MomOw]

Important to note that this assumes that meaningful importance will be given to the opinions of the community, which considering the scanner additions, double seeker nief, b3ar vanguard, and turret gren may not be a particularly good assumption.

 

"In fact it is an intended change" (copyright UBIsoft, 2016)

[_incitatus]

This is true, but I also understand the logic of letting us guess for a bit so they can gauge what we consider the best and worst case scenarios before actually releasing anything.

 

Important to note that this assumes that meaningful importance will be given to the opinions of the community, which considering the scanner additions, double seeker nief, b3ar vanguard, and turret gren may not be a particularly good assumption.

 

Agree.  But if they have made changes that are set in stone, they should divulge this info.  Let us ramble on about anything that is still up in the air, however I think its a waste of time to speculate about something that doesn't have a chance of changing. 

[Kindos7]

It makes no sense.

If you lock something for everyone but a few (in this case, weapons), you have to make sure it plays nice and balanced, otherwise you're giving power to a reduced number of people, which is BS.
You can't just ignore these exclusive weapons because few will have them.

So if you're gonna take those weapons into consideration, might as well release them to everyone: game has more content, content that can be sold (as it was being sold before, not just by money).
Same logic applies to chassis swapping. Reducing the number of available cosmetics on a game that wins money by selling cosmetics (and that is doing bad) doesn't seem a smart move.

Guess this is the kind of nonsense that can be expected by those that decided that G2 mechs should be more powerful.

[Brother3J]

Grandfathering is fine as long as they eventually release the "legacy Mech Package" which features all the same stuff we have right now.  Nice little money maker if you ask me.  Vets running around in cooler mechs then the noobs... followed by righteous noob uprising...RLD overlords have just the 29.99 package to bring peace to the raging noob.  

 

See no problem just Profit

[nepacaka]

Anyways I can't see the problem of grandfathered mechs yet. The patch/update is still miles away and we don't know yet what exactly is going to get changed and what is actually going to happen.

 

i think, we should start whining Before it happens. Just in case xD
because later it was too late...

[StubbornPuppet]

If we want to alleviate the potential misconception of new players seeing these "grandfathered mechs" and thinking they are cheating or P2W,  ReLoaded can just put a "Tag" on the window that shows the name and mech image of the player who killed them - you know, the thing that also shows what weapons and equipment the person who killed you is running?

 

So, when you are killed by a player in one of these "Beta-Legacy Mechs" (as I'd prefer to call them) it is right there, in plain, easy to understand imagery and text, giving you a very sufficient explanation of why they might look or be configured differently.  Then, you may get some whiny idgits who complain that it's unfair that they can't have the alpha rewards... but then thousands of others will just tell them to shut up, because they weren't an alpha/beta player and shouldn't ever expect to recieve rewards for something they didn't do.

 

This is a very common practice for games coming out of alpha or beta.  They have unique 'stuff' that was only available to the fine and dedicated players who helped them play-test the game so that the general public could benefit from the fruits of their labor.  Think of the Legacy Mechs as our "Rewards" for sticking it out with Hawken.

[ARCH3TYP3]

If they're not available to newer players, at least initially, that is fine in my view.
Those who have loyally stayed with this game, who have learned it and those who have played it competitively should not have these load outs stripped away.
Is it realistic to view the 200-300 loyalist diehards as a significantly unbalancing force, in view of the relaunch and mass influx of new players, especially when considering MMR and MM actually working as intended with the larger player base?

If/when this actually becomes an issue, why not allow devs to address it then, possibly with unlockable content?

I mainly pilot the Assault, but I know that loyal Infiltrator, Vanguard, Grenadier pilots and others must be nervous as well.
Removing the Assault in favor of the G2 was a huge blunder in my view. I know others agree.
Piloting the intentionally awkward looking and inferior-in-nearly-every-way CRT as an Assault alternative is insulting, quite honestly, especially if body parts cannot be swapped out in favor of a more pleasing looking machine.
I could go on about the other load outs that are going away but I think the principle that should guide our conclusions is that letting loyal veteran players keep their mechs is both right and fair.

[popeco]

If they're not available to newer players, at least initially, that is fine in my view.
Those who have loyally stayed with this game, who have learned it and those who have played it competitively should not have these load outs stripped away.
Is it realistic to view the 200-300 loyalist diehards as a significantly unbalancing force, in view of the relaunch and mass influx of new players, especially when considering MMR and MM actually working as intended with the larger player base?

If/when this actually becomes an issue, why not allow devs to address it then, possibly with unlockable content?

I mainly pilot the Assault, but I know that loyal Infiltrator, Vanguard, Grenadier pilots and others must be nervous as well.
Removing the Assault in favor of the G2 was a huge blunder in my view. I know others agree.
Piloting the intentionally awkward looking and inferior-in-nearly-every-way CRT as an Assault alternative is insulting, quite honestly, especially if body parts cannot be swapped out in favor of a more pleasing looking machine.
I could go on about the other load outs that are going away but I think the principle that should guide our conclusions is that letting loyal veteran players keep their mechs is both right and fair.

 

stop making such logical, calm arguments

[Silverfire]

Grandfathering is fine as long as they eventually release the "legacy Mech Package" which features all the same stuff we have right now. Nice little money maker if you ask me. Vets running around in cooler mechs then the noobs... followed by righteous noob uprising...RLD overlords have just the 29.99 package to bring peace to the raging noob.

See no problem just Profit

This reeks of pay 2 win.

[lo_spaghetto]

Sorry, there is no way I can support this right now.

 

Each mech/weapon combo fills a niche, and taking away weapon options puts a big limit on gameplay.

 

I like both EOC and Heat infil. Each does well in a different setting. AR also allows for a unique style of play.

 

WTF is up devs? Take the damned double miniflak bs and shove it plz.

 

And grandfathering the combos is worse for the game, but plz do that cuz i want my damned weapons.

 

Cmon. Just give me Hawken and fk this marketing ass bs.

[Brother3J]

This reeks of pay 2 win.

 and a more powerful G2 does too.  In the end, if they don't F'up the balance, skill and teamwork will still matter more then what mech your using.  Getting the concept of skill and teamwork out to the masses is probably impossible.  The G2 mechs should not be more powerful but offer an xp boost or money boost like MWO does with their hero mechs.  

 

Remember Reloaded needs to make money and people will pay for power over cosmetics.  If they limit the amount of power creep, to what we have now, keeping the same balance, shouldn't be a big deal but should also generate some quick cash.  A fine line to be sure.  

[ArchMech]

WE CAN HAVE OUR CAKE, AND EAT IT TOO I PROMISE

[ARCH3TYP3]

For all we know, we'll be begging for the new Vanguard with reworked B3AR to be nerfed.

[sabrehawk90]

If we want to alleviate the potential misconception of new players seeing these "grandfathered mechs" and thinking they are cheating or P2W,  ReLoaded can just put a "Tag" on the window that shows the name and mech image of the player who killed them - you know, the thing that also shows what weapons and equipment the person who killed you is running?

 

So, when you are killed by a player in one of these "Beta-Legacy Mechs" (as I'd prefer to call them) it is right there, in plain, easy to understand imagery and text, giving you a very sufficient explanation of why they might look or be configured differently.  Then, you may get some whiny idgits who complain that it's unfair that they can't have the alpha rewards... but then thousands of others will just tell them to shut up, because they weren't an alpha/beta player and shouldn't ever expect to recieve rewards for something they didn't do.

 

This is a very common practice for games coming out of alpha or beta.  They have unique 'stuff' that was only available to the fine and dedicated players who helped them play-test the game so that the general public could benefit from the fruits of their labor.  Think of the Legacy Mechs as our "Rewards" for sticking it out with Hawken.

 

This. An easily noticeable legacy mech infotext in the killcam would take care of the misconceptions problem. Though, I think that a legacy mech indicator should also be in the scoreboard, like a small but eye-catching "BETA" icon that would show up next to someone's mech type whenever they would pilot a grandfathered mech.

 

With these changes, if I were a newbie that came in with Hawken 3.0 and got into a match with a vet piloting a legacy mech, depending on the circumstances, there would be three possible outcomes that would occur -

 

A - I get my metal face smashed in and see the legacy mech notification in the killcam

 

B - I survive an encounter and bewilderedly look at the scoreboard to seek confirmation on just what kind of mech from hell I just saw, consequentially seeing the legacy mech indicator

 

C - I see someone exclaiming in chat that the vet has an impossible mech-weapon or mech-torso combo, which would probably result in at least one person in the match looking at the scoreboard and spreading the discovery that "there's some kind of shiny beta icon next to the guy's name"

 

Combine all of this with an official request that vets explain their legacy mechs when asked about (or raged about), and the what, how, and why of legacy mechs will quickly become common knowledge. The higher the vets to newcomers ratio, the quicker a newbie will figure legacy mechs out. Of course, none of this will solve the balance part of the issue and the rookies will just complain about unfair gameplay instead, but at least there won't be runaway P2W / Hacker complaints.

 

I second crockrocket, any concrete details would be nice right about now, RLD.

Edited by sabrehawk90, 23 June 2016 - 01:13 PM.

[Flifang]

The mechs as they are already fit really nicely into the majority of the niches that their alternate weapons provide them. Sure you could argue the point-gren is the best gren loadout, but what about when you can't gain LOS? That point-d is now abso- fuzzy bunnyng - lutely useless to you. Sure, mini-flak scout is hard as all hell to use the way you generally use flak or heat on it, it becomes a beast at melting your enemy when they're distracted by something.

 

This game takes so many variables into account when you're playing. Just because something is good in one scenario is not justification for elevating it so much as to assume that it would break the game.

 

The incinerator hasn't been nerfed yet and the tech hasn't been tweaked, and behold we're still here! Plus people in this game change their mind so damn often it's disgusting. When the incinerator came out, most people shunned the PPA because it was "useless," or was "too hard to use." Fast forward three months with the help of a small group of patient and persistent players people began to see what the PPA could do if you bothered to learn it and started calling for a nerf. fuzzy bunny man, I came back to the game to the newly released G2 raider after a 3 month hiatus and nobody was using it so I picked it up and started trying it out. Other people did so too and after a while the number of people calling it a fuzzy bunny mech dwindled to just a few players.

 

The point is I don't expect this to be a huge issue and think most of you will forget this in only a year.

 

Edit: Let's not forget when the pred came out! "It's secondary is impossible to hit with," or "Traps are impossible to land!" (Although I attribute this mindset to how absolutely demoralizing an incompetent pred player can be to a person on their team)

Edited by Flifang, 23 June 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[talon70]

We'll discuss this internally. It's certainly a topic of concern even among the development team. We'd rather figure this out before we prepare the re-launch of the PC version.

 

Please keep discussing this on the forums here; your feedback is super important and we would rather make an informed decision that benefits all players in Hawken.

Hi C05, It would be great if you and the rest of  the team joined in on these types of discussions. How can there even be a valid or sound discussion when  everyone has different premises and it is based entirely on speculation.