146 replies to this topic

[DerMax]

As I think this is a critically important point, I would like to encourage forum-goers to discuss it in one dedicated thread.

 

I personally think grandfathering weapons would be disastrous for the (hopefully) upcoming PC version of Hawken 3.0.

 

Case in point:

 

Judging from the new website, the Infiltrator will have just one primary � EOC. As someone who has ~500 hours on an EOC infiltrator and ~300 hours on a HEAT infiltrator, I can tell you that the latter is considerably stronger as of now. HEAT synergizes better with the grenade launcher, gives you more flexibility, is better in close quarters combat and is easier to use. Even if you gave EOC a higher projectile speed and a bit more damage, I would still prefer HEAT, but the problem is, you can't do that, because HEAT will be the default Scout weapon, according to the website.

 

This grandfathering really throws a spanner in the works in terms of balancing the game. Now you have to not only balance the new combinations of weapons and mechs (30 of them � quite a feat), but also all the grandfathered ones, which makes the problem several orders of magnitude more challenging, if not impossible.

 

Besides the balancing problem, there is also the problem of unfairness. For a new player, it'd be quite frustrating to see someone brandishing gun+mech combos that they cannot possibly obtain. And then there's also the perceived P2W aspect, because, with their vast combat experience, the vets will dominate newcomers with their grandfathered weapons, and so these players will scream pay-to-win.

 

Further still, having three weapons to choose from for one mech, instead of no choice, gives you additional flexibility during a match, so that you could easier counter-pick your opponent's mech combination. This, in addition to balancing issues, could make it so that the competitive scene becomes limited exclusively to the veterans, driving new aspiring, comp-oriented players further away from the game.

Edited by DerMax, 22 June 2016 - 07:27 AM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

As much as I don't want to (because I love my flak scout) I have to agree.

Unique weapon per mech with all the other variables (speed, cool downs) will make a multiple-regression balance straightforward and easier to maintain.

It will prevent the issue Der brings up, and dovetail with Nept's observation on why TF2 is popular and enduring.

[Sorroritas]

[Dr_Freeze001]

I've been thinking about this as well, for tournaments and such. Pre-howken mechs will have to be banned from use in order to keep tournaments accessible for every player.

[Bergwein]

Or at least only allow the standardized version (e.g. the Heat Scout).

[DeeRax]

Blahblahblah

OK, you are not wrong, technically, as much as I hate to admit it. Maybe.
 

But you are also assuming that the "legacy" mech/weapon combos won't still be available as simply G2 mechs, G3s, etc. Looking at one of the gameplay vids, the "G2 Reaper" was just a regular Reaper with AM-SAR. *shrug*

While we don't know for sure that this is the case, and won't until we start seeing more from the new patch (There's that famous RLD communication again), I'm pretty convinced that this is the way it will go down. It would just be too easy for RLD not to do it that way.

I don't see an issue with this, and don't see the point in crying about it, until we see how it ACTUALLY effects gameplay, not theoretically effects gameplay.

(Yo RLD. Patch notes pls?)

Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 22 June 2016 - 07:11 AM.

[Hyginos]

To reiterate what I said in the Q&A thread:

 

It is concerning that no one brought this up as a balance issue at RLD. I would honestly rather you remove the old mech's weapon options than potentially allow some players access to more powerful weapon combos simply for having been around longer.

If some of these mechs are being released as "new" mechs under different names to hit your 30 mech promises, that's somewhere between misleading and downright scummy.

 

I get the idea that, while we may not see a literal heat-infil/flak-scout/hawkins-brawler/etc ever again, we will probably see heat/gl A class, flak/tow a class, hawkins/tow c class etc under different names with different appearances.

 

Right now Mech names and abilities are somewhat tied together. If RLD changes the naming convention so that a mech is identified by its chassis (Moke, neif, w/e) they will be able to re-use abilities and crank out even more mechs without doing any actual work.

Edited by Hyginos, 22 June 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[DeeRax]

If some of these mechs are being released as "new" mechs under different names to hit your 30 mech promises, that's somewhere between misleading and downright scummy.

 

Right now Mech names and abilities are somewhat tied together. If RLD changes the naming convention so that a mech is identified by its chassis (Moke, neif, w/e) they will be able to re-use abilities and crank out even more mechs without doing any actual work.

I will bet real money that this is exactly what RLD is doing (And yes, it's sketchy as fuzzy bunny).
I'll take my payout in gold etherium cryptocoins, pls.

[MomOw]

Allow old Mechs only in "Legacy servers" and "private servers" and "coop TDM" (already used as glitching playground  )

[DeeRax]

Allow old Mechs only in "Legacy servers" and "private servers" and "coop TDM" (already used as glitching playground  )

Nope.

[PoopSlinger]

There could be something as simple as servers banning their selection.  If it was only an option to select alternate weapons in private servers then the noobs would barely notice until they stop by War Wednesday or something.

[StubbornPuppet]

I think this is all too much jumping to conclusions.  I'm completely willing to let this happen and see how it actually plays out.  

 

I mean, there seems to be a basic consensus (not everyone agreeing about everything, but basically) that the weapons and mechs are pretty well balanced right now.  So, why would that change the balance of the game just because new players can't make those combinations.  If none of the combinations are OP...

 

I'm not saying that there isn't a chance that some of the stat tweaking will cause a little imbalance here and there - but as we have seen numerous times over the history of Hawken, it takes a lot of players and a lot of time to realize where the actual balance issues are and what needs to be changed to fix them.

[MomOw]

I think this is all too much jumping to conclusions.  I'm completely willing to let this happen and see how it actually plays out.  

 

I mean, there seems to be a basic consensus (not everyone agreeing about everything, but basically) that the weapons and mechs are pretty well balanced right now.  So, why would that change the balance of the game just because new players can't make those combinations.  If none of the combinations are OP...

 

I'm not saying that there isn't a chance that some of the stat tweaking will cause a little imbalance here and there - but as we have seen numerous times over the history of Hawken, it takes a lot of players and a lot of time to realize where the actual balance issues are and what needs to be changed to fix them.

 

The abilities will change and they said that they will adjust some stats.

 

They removed the 'salt, the hawkins brawler, the vulgren, the flak scout (akka pubstomper). Which were above average, even if not that imbalanced.

Add ~3000 new players (what I really wish for reloaded) and it could lead to some rage. I'm a mere 2100k+ player and I've already been hackused while I was playing a hawkins brawler... meh.

 

Further more being able to use things that other cannot is unfair (unless it's only cosmetics).

Edited by (KDR) MomOw, 22 June 2016 - 08:02 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

I hear you Max and I have thought about the same. Not only the weapon choice for our mechs as loyal veterans are an issue also the choice to customize our mechs as new palyers may think "What is that kind of a mech and why can't I access it?".

 

To counter this problem I would recommend a single server or maybe two for each region which only allow "Veteran Mechs" let's call them like that. Every other server must not allow veteran mechs. I wouldn't be bothered grinding my way back up with new mechs, quite the contrary. 

However, I also do not want my mechs to be excluded from Hawken. So I would say it will end up like this:

 

Most of us are social in some way, even me and even you. Coming around the internet and online games I really can't deny that the HWK community has alot of energy when it comes down to fairness. In which other game players sit to even out a match no matter the time? Or who used the scanner when it was so overpowered apart from trolling the enemy team from time to time? Everyone knows how to glitch up on Front Line yet noone of us veterans does it in a pub game. I have only seen vets climbing up there to shoot down anyone who used this glitch.

 

Long story short: I expect noone of us vets to intentionally use a better loadout and adapt our own "Veteran Mechs" to the new rules. I doubt many of us will use a Heat-Infil or a Flak-Scout. Atleast I won't, also because I like to use difficult weapons. :)

 

But one point: Heat being easier to use is true and for that reason I like that the new Infiltrator is equiped with only an EOCR. Players shouldn't be rewarded for easy loadouts. The Assault is the best example. 

 

I really appreaciate the decision to only lock the mechs to one single primary weapon as it makes the mechs unique and I highly doubt it will make things difficult to balance, quite the contrary again. Previously mechs could choose between 3 primary weapons so basically fitting 3 roles in one mech. You would have to count every mech times three and as soon as you would like to balance a single weapon or a single mech would also touch other mechs and roles since they may share the same weapon or as they can carry three primary weapons. With the decision to lock mechs to a single primary weapon reloaded can balance things better as they may not touch other mechs/weapons when adjusting a single stat. 

But this depends on the actual future mech loadouts. If 20/30 mechs use a heat cannon, then balancing the heat will be difficult as they would touch 20 mechs at once.

 

 

I really like where we are going, ultimately: forward.

Edited by Crimson Kaim, 22 June 2016 - 08:24 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

Let's not forget that the new G2 (and probably coming soon G3) mechs are most likely to just be combinations similar to us changing the primary weapons on the ones we've got now.

 

Again, it's just too early to know and the developers haven't given us remotely enough information to come to any conclusions about anything... except that change makes us nervous.

[ArchMech]

didnt read any of the thread but

dont "grandfather" anything into howken, continue to fully support the old everything within its own game mode subsection, tell naysayers who want to take their mechs into newer lobbies and stomp everything that they are insane and selfish and clearly want hawken AND howken to fail 

if nobody plays the mode we wont be surprised and can imagine why.....

 

and if thats 2 hard for RLD, whether that be at implementation or down the road then so be it, nobody should play it, but that doesnt seem nearly the case thus far (at least where their capabilities and experience is put to question with willingness being the deciding factor).

 

options are on the table, stop knocking it all on the floor and stepping on it and maybe this will end up not sucking

[DeeRax]

didnt read any of the thread but

~And then rages.

 

OK.

[nepacaka]

I very very agree with DerMax, and i ask another players and Devs agree with this. Devs should delete "invalid weapon combinations". For the sake of balance-god, EOC-Infil should be for every player. If brawler have flak and tanking role, it should not be used like SA-sniper just because you play in game more hours.

the balance should be the same for all players!

yes, leave players their camo and parts (it is like a "gift" for beta-testers, it is ok, like alpha/beta camos, for example), but not weapons.

[Superkamikazee]

I have to disagree with adding "Legacy" servers or game types. There simply needs to be consistency between all platforms, it's that cut and dry. Adding extra servers or game modes to accommodate the dwindling PC  population only splits a small player base and adds confusion to new players. Allowing "legacy" mechs and load outs to intermingle with the new Hawken mechs is inappropriate no matter how you slice it.

 

Whether or not the "legacy" mech weapons get nerfed or balanced to fit (I have my doubts because they've never balanced to begin with), the fact still remains there will be mechs that don't look like the current mechs new players will have access to. We can debate the importance of physical appearance a  mech(s) has in Hawken, but at the end of the day, in a class based shooter each class should be differentiated aesthetically (chassis), and not be altered to look like a different  mech. I always thought changing a mechs chassis with another was a mistake from a design and game play perspective, and quite frankly a lazy way for ADH to make some extra cash without having to do any extra work creating new and original content for each mech. 

Edited by Superkamikazee, 22 June 2016 - 09:06 AM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

As much as I'll miss my loadouts, I agree that there shouldn't be any grandfathering.

[crockrocket]

Perhaps the reason we're being allowed to keep our old loudouts is because the old loudouts will just become "new" mechs.

[WillyW]

There could be something as simple as servers banning their selection.  If it was only an option to select alternate weapons in private servers then the noobs would barely notice until they stop by War Wednesday or something.

 

I second this suggestion. In servers shared between console and PC, you are only limited to the the same mechs, and weapon/internal/item combinations.

 

I fully disagree with Reload's take on profit at all cost, even if it means stripping down a great game to an okay game, but this is the best way to handle it.

[hestoned]

yea they dont give a fuzzy bunny about the pc version. what a fuzzy bunnyng joke

[Sorroritas]

Grandfathering or not.

Changing (almost) ALL variables that affect balancing AT ONCE is probably not going to create any more balance than we already had.

Spoiler

Edited by Sorroritas, 22 June 2016 - 10:20 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

Perhaps the reason we're being allowed to keep our old loudouts is because the old loudouts will just become "new" mechs.

 

More than likely this is what's happening, which would explain the "30 mechs" claim in the E3 trailer. 

[_incitatus]

Only way grandfathering is going to work is if the loadouts available now on our OG mechs will be available in some form in the new G1, G2 and G3? mechs.

[StubbornPuppet]

Only way grandfathering is going to work is if the loadouts available now on our OG mechs will be available in some form in the new G1, G2 and G3? mechs.

 

Which is exactly what I suspect will be the case.

[Amidatelion]

I don't think the issue of weapon grandfathering is going to be the issue. Dermax mentioned perception, and that's what's going to cause problems. 

 

I don't think that there's going to be any functional difference between an infiltrator that has an EOC-R and an infiltrator that can equip all three legacy weapons, so long as there are other infiltrator models that equip those weapons too. The issue is going to come up that new players are going to see an infiltrator with glorious Prosk Piston chassis and get utterly confused why this Berserker just threw a grenade at them and then disappeared. I have literally had this argument three times this week on Reddit, because players don't bother to read their HUD.  

 

The fact of the matter is that the weapon changes are not going to have a serious effect on the PC population and the console population isn't going to experience them. The core issue with mech part and weapon loadouts has always been players' inability to read the HUD or even track all available information (radar, sound, weapon effect cues, etc). 

 

EDIT: Goddammit, disregard, what just occured to me is that splitting each mech into 3 would result in a great many more mechs than 30. More likely we're going to see redundant weapons like the sustain trio get ditched - for the vast majority of players there's no difference between an SMC and an AR. Reloaded is clearly playing a game of percentages here, and what new blood they hope to attract is never going to find the salty stats. The problem arrives when players are deprived of options like the infiltrator's AR and gren's vulcan - those weapons are strictly better than other options. Player's frustration will arrive and be justified when and if they cannot access weapon loadouts that, in what will be the new meta, broken.

[Hyginos]

EDIT: Goddammit, disregard, what just occured to me is that splitting each mech into 3 would result in a great many more mechs than 30. More likely we're going to see redundant weapons like the sustain trio get ditched - for the vast majority of players there's no difference between an SMC and an AR. Reloaded is clearly playing a game of percentages here, and what new blood they hope to attract is never going to find the salty stats. The problem arrives when players are deprived of options like the infiltrator's AR and gren's vulcan - those weapons are strictly better than other options. Player's frustration will arrive and be justified when and if they cannot access weapon loadouts that, in what will be the new meta, broken.

 

I believe the wording was more like "30 mechs at launch with more to come".

 

Think like a sleazy executive of a small game company. Can you think of a more cost efficient, low effort way to get a whole fuzzy bunny ton of mechs out than to rehash old weapon combos as new mechs? The console players don't know that mechs had 3 weapon option before, they just see new weapon options coming out every month or so and assume that RLD must be developing stuff.

[nepacaka]

how about this?
it is look like, bear-papa now is just a "bear", like solo-weapon. and it is look like (i want to bielive in this) devs deleted incinerator from game. or maybe they used his bodyparts to making some G2-mech or anything else, or maybe return it without papa-bear minigun later. but current PC player still have this unbalanced monster.

[Nept]

Seems likely that each Mech/Primary combination will constitute a new variant.  Remember, though, that G2's and G3's will (supposedly) have better stats.  The grandfathered mechs might be weaker - albeit more versatile - versions.  Not that that'll fix the perception problem, of course - but it might explain Reloaded's thinking.

[Hecatoncheires]

Because mechs typically have one weapon among the three that is comparably less popular, I think Reloaded is planning on removing that weapon and creating variants based on either of the two remaining weapons (such as a G1 Scout would have a heat cannon while a G2 Scout would have a flak cannon, etc). If they do this, yes, there is still the option of that third grandfathered weapon, but it wouldn't be popular enough to make a significant difference. Of course, this is assuming that third weapon isn't useful. They could then make the stats of each variant mech more ideal for each weapon, making them more specialized and superior than the original would be in the same loadout.

 

Edit: Course they wouldn't have to remove the third weapon if there are more variants than just two*

Edited by Hecatoncheires, 22 June 2016 - 12:25 PM.

[Nov8tr]

I have a question. Why is everyone completely ignoring the pink elephant in the room? And I'm not joking. Mechs with ONE weapon? And ban all the others. Answer is simple. NO. NO way in hell. This is BS. Leave the damn weapons alone. I worked and PAID real life money (as well and many, many other people) for some of them. So now you want to STEAL them from me? No. You want to make one weapon mechs and sell them to people? Fine your choice. Take mine away I paid for and worked for over 3 years? The hell with that BS. You think it's OK? Well that is your opinion. Mine varies greatly from yours then. Good luck with that. Here, why don't we just take all the weapons away and we can just yell at each other? Or maybe give us all the same sharp stick? Yeah. good idea there..............

Edited by Nov8tr, 22 June 2016 - 12:42 PM.

[DeeRax]

And I'm not joking. Mechs with ONE weapon? And ban all the others. Answer is simple. NO. NO way in hell. This is BS. Leave the damn weapons alone. I worked and PAID real life money (as well and many, many other people) for some them. So now you want to STEAL them from me? No. You want to make one weapon mechs and sell them to people? Fine your choice. Take mine away I paid for and worked for over 3 years? The hell with that BS.

This is kind of the crucial point. People have paid real money for this stuff. RLD can legally take all of that away as per the EULA, if they wanted, but they probably won't because:

A) it'd be crappy, honestly, and UNFAIR to the people who already PAID MONEY FOR THE STUFF
B) it'll just cause more flak and griping from the insufferable PC playerbase that might spill over into the console environs via internettubecomments n' such, and I doubt that they want to have to deal with that either.

I can see both sides of the argument, and both have valid points. There is likely a solution here that satisfies both camps, but I promise you that just taking people's fuzzy bunny away is not likely to be it.

[Amidatelion]

 

 

Nov8tr, on 22 Jun 2016 - 4:25 PM, said:

And I'm not joking. Mechs with ONE weapon? And ban all the others. Answer is simple. NO. NO way in hell. This is BS. Leave the damn weapons alone. I worked and PAID real life money (as well and many, many other people) for some them. So now you want to STEAL them from me? No. You want to make one weapon mechs and sell them to people? Fine your choice. Take mine away I paid for and worked for over 3 years? The hell with that BS.

This is kind of the crucial point. People have paid real money for this stuff. RLD can legally take all of that away as per the EULA, if they wanted, but they probably won't because:

A) it'd be crappy, honestly, and UNFAIR to the people who already PAID MONEY FOR THE STUFF
B) it'll just cause more flak and griping from the insufferable PC playerbase that might spill over into the console environs via internettubecomments n' such, and I doubt that they want to have to deal with that either.

I can see both sides of the argument, and both have valid points. There is likely a solution here that satisfies both camps, but I promise you that just taking people's fuzzy bunny away is not likely to be it.

 

Holy fuzzing hell no one is taking anyone's goddamn stuff, they're grandfathering it in which is what this discussion is about.

 

Forgot, quotes aren't quoted.

Edited by Amidatelion, 22 June 2016 - 01:06 PM.

[DeeRax]

Holy fuzzing hell no one is taking anyone's goddamn stuff, they're grandfathering it in which is what this discussion is about.

 

Holy fuzzing hell, drink some whiskey or something and chill the fuzz out. And maybe read moar better.

I didn't say they were taking people's stuff. Where did I say that? No one is taking anybody's stuff. Most of this 'discussion' is suggestions to the contrary, however, and some people are against that. I was trying to provide possible reasoning for why people might be, i.e. people have paid money for the stuff. I personally am mostly in favor of said grandfathering, but I see how that might/will be problematic for a bunch of reasons, and I would like to discuss, if your lordliness will allow it,  a solution that involves something besides "DON'T TAKE AWAY OUR fuzzy bunny," or "TAKE AWAY EVERYONE'S fuzzy bunny." Legacy servers are not a bad start, but I don't think that's good enough for some folks.

For me, at the end of the day, I'm just happy I'll be keeping my cosmetics parts. I have my favorite weapons too, but I'm sure there will be "new" mechs that have similar loadouts (i.e. exactly the same, prolly), so whatever IDC.

Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 22 June 2016 - 01:25 PM.

[claisolais]

how about this?
it is look like, bear-papa now is just a "bear", like solo-weapon. and it is look like (i want to bielive in this) devs deleted incinerator from game. or maybe they used his bodyparts to making some G2-mech or anything else, or maybe return it without papa-bear minigun later. but current PC player still have this unbalanced monster.

they have incinerator in their trailer, so I think it's here to stay.

But....Dont tear bear family apart!!!

[harmless_kittens]

My son and I both purchased some new weapons with MC - cash money (his weekly allowance in his case).  So, yeah, count me in the category of not OK if they were to reduce us all to the starting level.  And 1) I'm not screaming, and 2) I KNOW that the DEVs have not said this will happen - only players saying they are OK with it.  I just wanted to go on record to say that if they did this it would be the last day that my son or myself play this game, or any other Reloaded product for that matter.  That would just be a really terrible way to thank those players who gave you their money.

 

If the rest of you want to volunteer to lose your stuff, go right ahead.  But I am not in favor of this.

Edited by harmless_kittens, 22 June 2016 - 01:19 PM.

[nepacaka]

they have incinerator in their trailer

 

if i'm not wrong, i see some parts of they trailer before. so...
 

Take mine away I paid for and worked for over 3 years? The hell with that BS. You think it's OK? Well that is your opinion

 

What if Reloaded return you all MC amount which you spent to open weapons, and all HC?

 

you can spend it after patch for buy new camos and thrusters, new bodyparts, and spent HC for items/internals for all new mechs. is it not good solution?

Edited by nepacaka, 22 June 2016 - 01:29 PM.

[DeeRax]

What if Reloaded return you all MC amount which you spent to open weapons, and all HC?

 

you can spend it after patch for buy new camos and thrusters, new bodyparts, and spent HC for items/internals for all new mechs. it is not good solution?

 

 

I'd most likely be OK with this option, personally.
Good luck with allllll of those transactions though.