78 replies to this topic

[LU0P10]

Why not adjust too how fast those orbs left_from_destruction/item... dissipates from the field?

It would counteract that honeybee effect... as flying from orb to orb to fight&heal... if orbs would disappear a lot faster. 

[Silverfire]

I could see a comeback of item cooldowns. Could help balance a bit. More slots it takes up, the shorter the cool down (MK III shorter than MK I). But I do still want ability to carry multiple items.

[AsianJoyKiller]

If not items on cooldown, I'd at least like to see ways to replenish them in the objective based modes (I could see it being left out of DM modes to prevent "immortality")

[Xacius]

If When orbs get another change, I hope it's more than an increased delay for use. I think decreasing their health would be great, but I'd still prefer to play repair only.
 

 

What the fuzzy bunny

[hestoned]

I would say more like 1 second. That would nerf orb tanking without making the internals useless.

yea i think this is the best idea. keep the values of everything as is BUT if your taking fire you wont absorb hp. that way you cant kill 2 people who are fighting and then drop a 3rd orb so when the 4th guy comes in you cant be like I HAVE 3 ORBS WHERES YOUR GOD NOW. it should work the way it is when you are repairing. taking fire stops it but then it works again after 1-2 secs of taking no dmg. this would make dropping an orb out in the open completely useless so you cant just tank dmg. this would also help with tech c class combos. now the tech and c class cant both drop an orb and just wall off EVERYTHING.

[Nept]

This is all your fault, hestoned.

[LoC_TR]

This is all your fault, hestoned.

 

 

It's true though. New Old meta brought down from the dark ages. We had to kill him somehow!

[Leonhardt]

The reason we went away from the old CD system was due to the fact that many veteran players were nearly impossible to kill because they always had their items up. Once the TTK dropped Adhesive felt it was best to make sure that players couldn't keep using items constantly in a single life. Going back to the old system (which is technically the newer system fyi) would still present the same issue (if you feel this is an issue, which to be frank I don't, however I am quite bias) even if the items were reduced in effectiveness. Just something to think about. Personally I am in favor of returning to the CD system I felt it was fair enough, but it does present just as many issues especially if we are talking about item hording (perhaps not with orbs if a nerf took place) since any item in question would have far more uses in a single life during the game than it does now.

 

In short the current system was meant to limit the effectiveness of better players over the course of a single life.

[AsianJoyKiller]

The reason we went away from the old CD system was due to the fact that many veteran players were nearly impossible to kill because they always had their items up. Once the TTK dropped Adhesive felt it was best to make sure that players couldn't keep using items constantly in a single life. Going back to the old system (which is technically the newer system fyi) would still present the same issue (if you feel this is an issue, which to be frank I don't, however I am quite bias) even if the items were reduced in effectiveness. Just something to think about. Personally I am in favor of returning to the CD system I felt it was fair enough, but it does present just as many issues especially if we are talking about item hording (perhaps not with orbs if a nerf took place) since any item in question would have far more uses in a single life during the game than it does now.
 
In short the current system was meant to limit the effectiveness of better players over the course of a single life.

I also favor the return of cool downs for those reasons.

Not to mention some items are just not viable in limited form (coughcoughturrets).

[Superkamikazee]

I also favor the return of cool downs for those reasons.

Not to mention some items are just not viable in limited form (coughcoughturrets).

 

Is it only possible to have a blanket decision for items, CD or the current system? Would it be possible to have turrets on cool down, orbs on the current system?

 

 

I am also in behind going back tot he old system of item cooldowns. Personally, I liked it as it offered more a strategic play style. 

 

What's the added strategy with having unlimited items on tap?

[ticklemyiguana]

What's the added strategy with having unlimited items on tap?

The cool down was longer than 7 seconds. You couldn't drop two, sometimes even three items in one fight.

[Superkamikazee]

The cool down was longer than 7 seconds. You couldn't drop two, sometimes even three items in one fight.

 

I suppose someone would have to look at a player who generally has a high survivability (high K/D ratio) and see if CD items like orbs were aiding that high survivability, and if the current system helped balance that out. If they at max dropped 3 orbs a spawn (current) vs potentially unlimited during a spawn (CD). Seems like the current system favors the lower skilled players than the higher skilled players atm, and I'm not sure if that's really a problem.

[ticklemyiguana]

I suppose someone would have to look at a player who generally has a high survivability (high K/D ratio) and see if CD items like orbs were aiding that high survivability, and if the current system helped balance that out. If they at max dropped 3 orbs a spawn (current) vs potentially unlimited during a spawn (CD). Seems like the current system favors the lower skilled players than the higher skilled players atm, and I'm not sure if that's really a problem.

Ah, but sometimes in order to stop a higher skill player, you need impressive teamwork- something of a rarity. And if that player is able to counter that rarity by dropping two orbs and standing on them, then that's pretty absurd. It's a very low amount of skill countering actual coordination.

In the cool down mode, even a medium player with a health advantage could at least get the higher player to run away. It's not necessarily about survivability as it is outright winning impossible fights.

[Superkamikazee]

Ah, but sometimes in order to stop a higher skill player, you need impressive teamwork- something of a rarity. And if that player is able to counter that rarity by dropping two orbs and standing on them, then that's pretty absurd. It's a very low amount of skill countering actual coordination.

In the cool down mode, even a medium player with a health advantage could at least get the higher player to run away. It's not necessarily about survivability as it is outright winning impossible fights.

 

Oh you're talking about teamwork, teamwork that's enhanced without voice chat.

[ticklemyiguana]

Oh you're talking about teamwork, teamwork that's enhanced without voice chat.

Hence the rarity. And as such it shouldn't be so easily countered when it does occur.

[Amidatelion]

Oh you're talking about teamwork, teamwork that's enhanced without voice chat.

 

That's one way of doing it. Here's another way.

 

It's a DM. Some stupidly high-level player who shall go unnamed wipes two people in CQC and is functionally sitting on two orbs. They are recognizably the strongest player in the server.

 

Enter Amid who rushes him, sits his fat C-ass on the orbs instead/as well and tanks the damage while other people capitalize and destroy them. Amid probably dies in the crossfire, but so does strongest player.

 

Right now the strongest goddamn counterplay to high level players orblording is to run screaming or take their goddamn orbs away from them. Drop another one? MINE TOO.

[Sylhiri]

I also favor the return of cool downs for those reasons.

Not to mention some items are just not viable in limited form (coughcoughturrets).

 

Is it not possible to have a mixture of both limited uses for some items and cooldowns for others?

[Superkamikazee]

I don't see much orb lording in the lower rank matches I'm in. I'm interested in seeing what effects CD items would have on lower ranked play. Could be worth trying again.

 

How would MKI, MKII, MKIII orbs be handled with CD, currently it's how many drops you have, was it the size of the orbs before the current system? I don't remember anymore.

[Leonhardt]

I don't see much orb lording in the lower rank matches I'm in. I'm interested in seeing what effects CD items would have on lower ranked play. Could be worth trying again.

 

How would MKI, MKII, MKIII orbs be handled with CD, currently it's how many drops you have, was it the size of the orbs before the current system? I don't remember anymore.

 

The previous system had only one version of each item and you could only take 1 offensive and 1 defensive type item if I remember correctly. Each had their own CD. So for example Det would take 20 seconds to recharge and a shield would take 30 seconds (not accurate numbers just an example).

[Superkamikazee]

The previous system had only one version of each item and you could only take 1 offensive and 1 defensive type item if I remember correctly. Each had their own CD. So for example Det would take 20 seconds to recharge and a shield would take 30 seconds (not accurate numbers just an example).

 

Ah, so has anyone considered the financial ramifications, for the devs and player, of going back to CD? If a player spent real money to buy Orb MKIII, and now that item is gone due to the CD model, how is that situation handled? 

[Silverfire]

Have the MK III items gave shorter cooldowns maybe. Slot system stays, just MK III items have shorter cooldowns than MK I items.

[eth0]

What the fuzzy bunny

That was for Poop. I have builds with orb kits and use them, I'm being a fuzzy bunny.

[comic_sans]

yea i think this is the best idea. keep the values of everything as is BUT if your taking fire you wont absorb hp. that way you cant kill 2 people who are fighting and then drop a 3rd orb so when the 4th guy comes in you cant be like I HAVE 3 ORBS WHERES YOUR GOD NOW. it should work the way it is when you are repairing. taking fire stops it but then it works again after 1-2 secs of taking no dmg. this would make dropping an orb out in the open completely useless so you cant just tank dmg. this would also help with tech c class combos. now the tech and c class cant both drop an orb and just wall off EVERYTHING.

 

This solves the problem, IMO.  Orbs can still be the way an A class mech gets back to the fight faster than any other mech, but this keeps them from tanking like Bs or Cs.

 

Also, orblording breaks the hawken aesthetic (way more than aircomp for me) and I am of the opinion that hawken's aesthetic is very cohesive minus certain taunts, which greatly contibutes to my fun; I can't enjoy a halfassed-looking thing.  A problem I have with the metagame of many games I've played at higher levels is how it slowly stops looking like the game proper; smash bros played by wavedashing experts screwing with directional momentum and other nutso stuff looks almost nothing like the game as played by amateurs, CS 1.6 bunnyhopping was absurd, and right now Dark Souls 2 is dominated by actual clowns using a weapon that is effectively and canonically boring to the exclusion of all else in a game where one of your weapon options is a statue on a stick.  While I'm not opposed to figuring out a game's bones and doing the most effective thing, I am opposed to the most effective thing looking idiotic or totally out of place in the game's aesthetic.  Seeing an A-class mech sit on 2 or 3 orbs while out-healing the DPS of two other players is immersion-breaking even at the shallow level I need to be engaged at to care, and if seeing it happen alone weren't enough, being beaten by it regularly frustrates me greatly.

Edited by comic_sans, 31 March 2015 - 11:14 AM.

[ThirdEyE]

Ah, so has anyone considered the financial ramifications, for the devs and player, of going back to CD? If a player spent real money to buy Orb MKIII, and now that item is gone due to the CD model, how is that situation handled? 

Probably the same way they handled changing it from cooldown to number of uses in the first place, aka you keep the item in its different form.  When Ascension launched, the Mk 1, 2, and 3 versions of each item scaled the items power and/or cooldown.  EMP gained duration at higher ranks, turrets gained more damage, etc.  I wasn't really a fan of the increased power, but the cooldown scaling was ok as you had to choose which item(s) you wanted to be available more often.

[Superkamikazee]

Probably the same way they handled changing it from cooldown to number of uses in the first place, aka you keep the item in its different form.  When Ascension launched, the Mk 1, 2, and 3 versions of each item scaled the items power and/or cooldown.  EMP gained duration at higher ranks, turrets gained more damage, etc.  I wasn't really a fan of the increased power, but the cooldown scaling was ok as you had to choose which item(s) you wanted to be available more often.

 

Not sure if you're not understanding me, or I'm not following you here. 

 

If a player spent money (real money was exchanged) on MKI, MKII, MKIII orbs, and now there will only be one orb item due to CD. The customer paid for three items, is the customers expected to eat that cost if those items are now replaced with a single item?

[Silverfire]

Not sure if you're not understanding me, or I'm not following you here. 

 

If a player spent money (real money was exchanged) on MKI, MKII, MKIII orbs, and now there will only be one orb item due to CD. The customer paid for three items, is the customers expected to eat that cost if those items are now replaced with a single item?

 

I figure you can keep and equip the different MK items, they all function the same, they just have different cooldown lengths (MK III shorter cooldown than MK I) perhaps.  Just an idea.

Edited by Silverfire, 31 March 2015 - 04:48 PM.

[ThirdEyE]

Not sure if you're not understanding me, or I'm not following you here. 

 

If a player spent money (real money was exchanged) on MKI, MKII, MKIII orbs, and now there will only be one orb item due to CD. The customer paid for three items, is the customers expected to eat that cost if those items are now replaced with a single item?

Pretty much what Silverfire said.  Prior to Ascension there were no Mk 1, 2, 3 items, and items were restricted to offensive and defensive slots so you could only have one of each type.  When Ascension launched, the offensive/defensive slots went away and the 6 slot mix-and-match system was introduced with the Mk 1, 2, and 3 versions of each item that would alter their power and/or cooldown.

 

When people are suggesting to revert to the infinite use cooldown system, I'm assuming they are referring to the post-Ascension system with different Mk's of each item.  There wouldn't be any 3-for-1 item replacement this way.

[AsianJoyKiller]

 

The customer paid for three items, is the customers expected to eat that cost if those items are now replaced with a single item?

Welcome to paying for things in a game that is under developement.

[TheVulong]

-What about reducing the basic orb rate consumption by 25-50%? As others pointed out, making the Extractor affect only EU will make it useless everywhere outside siege.

-Same with the orbs you can carry: suggested 60 HP is not worth a damn if you're a C class. Unless health orbs could restore a set percentage of health instead of a set number.

[Superkamikazee]

Welcome to paying for things in a game that is under developement.

 

Been here since Open Beta, I've learned nothing. 

[CraftyDus]

Lower ttk by dropping health to the 150/275/415 range for A,B,& C classes

Remove the turn rate cap.

Problem solved, outrageous survivability controlled.

"Top Tier" trope checked effectively.

Hawken improved 23.8 % .

 

 

 

Spoiler

*drops troll mic

Edited by craftydus, 01 April 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

Lower ttk by dropping health to the 150/275/415 range for A,B,& C classes

Remove the turn rate cap.

Problem solved, outrageous survivability controlled.

"Top Tier" trope checked effectively.

Hawken improved 23.8 % .

 

 

Daaaaaamn, dat skill ceiling, raised by ?

[LU0P10]

https://community.pl...he-tech/?p=9894

 

Thoughts? 

Edited by LU0P10, 01 April 2015 - 08:16 AM.

[Flifang]

What about making orbs destructible somehow? Give them a health pool of sorts that enemies can shoot to take the healing away. Damage might reduce orb size until it's gone

[TheVulong]

...Or maybe we should just get rid of that broken internal system. 

[comic_sans]

What about making orbs destructible somehow? Give them a health pool of sorts that enemies can shoot to take the healing away. Damage might reduce orb size until it's gone

 

Maybe they do damage within the heal range and/or dissipate if you shoot them with an explosive?  I wouldn't stack this with the other proposed solution I like, but it's another good idea.

[defekt]

Maybe they do damage within the heal range [when shot].

That's a fabulous idea.  I support bringing the risk factor back into healing in this game and nothing sounds more risky than sitting on a bomb to heal up! 

 

I bloody love it! 

[Scow2]

yea i think this is the best idea. keep the values of everything as is BUT if your taking fire you wont absorb hp. that way you cant kill 2 people who are fighting and then drop a 3rd orb so when the 4th guy comes in you cant be like I HAVE 3 ORBS WHERES YOUR GOD NOW. it should work the way it is when you are repairing. taking fire stops it but then it works again after 1-2 secs of taking no dmg. this would make dropping an orb out in the open completely useless so you cant just tank dmg. this would also help with tech c class combos. now the tech and c class cant both drop an orb and just wall off EVERYTHING.

The 'problem' here isn't the guy dropping the 3rd orb. It's the 2 guys failing to shred 1 guy and giving him orbs.

It takes away from the game in my opinion, the orb build allows you to stay in combat way beyond it's intended means. It easily crushes many other builds and makes them completely useless. I think by the end of the season 2 of TPG 10/12 players in a game ran orb lord. You can pretty much 1v1 anyone that doesn't have the build as long as there are orbs around.

...If there's more than one orb around, you're not 1v1ing them. That's the wreckage of a teamfight.

[davek1979]

The 'problem' here isn't the guy dropping the 3rd orb. It's the 2 guys failing to shred 1 guy and giving him orbs.

..eh... you've played DM, right?