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Orb Lording the issue with being nigh invincible.

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#1
OmegaNull

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This is a real issue and is game breaking. During TPG, if your team didn't orb lord, you lost. In a DM, if you can run an orb lord mech, you basically can soak up huge amounts of damage and repair at an astounding rate. Get on top of two or more repair orbs and the issue is even more compounding. It gives a complete unfair advantage during 1v1 and team engagements. 

 

This almost forces players to have orb lord in order to play.  

 

 

My recommendations: 

 

Nerf Extractor - Make it so it can only pull EU, not health orbs. 

Nerf Health Orb - Amount from 120 to 60 except from orbs you get from a kill, leave those at 120. 

Repair Kit and Advanced Repair kit - Can be kept as is. 


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#2
Amidatelion

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This is a real issue and is game breaking. During TPG, if your team didn't orb lord, you lost. In a DM, if you can run an orb lord mech, you basically can soak up huge amounts of damage and repair at an astounding rate. Get on top of two or more repair orbs and the issue is even more compounding. It gives a complete unfair advantage during 1v1 and team engagements. 

 

This almost forces players to have orb lord in order to play.  

 

 

My recommendations: 

 

Nerf Extractor - Make it so it can only pull EU, not health orbs. 

Nerf Health Orb - Amount from 120 to 60 except from orbs you get from a kill, leave those at 120. 

Repair Kit and Advanced Repair kit - Can be kept as is. 

 

Extractor: What? No.

Health Orb: Agreed. Fixes the entire goddamn issue barring further testing.

Repair Kit and Adv Repair: Agreed.


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#3
crockrocket

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I'd just like to add:

I didn't realize healing stacked so directly. I figured the second and third orbs would bring the rate up to something like 75 and then 100, but they literally stack right on top of one another. 50-100-150.


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#4
shosca

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This is a real issue and is game breaking. During TPG, if your team didn't orb lord, you lost. In a DM, if you can run an orb lord mech, you basically can soak up huge amounts of damage and repair at an astounding rate. Get on top of two or more repair orbs and the issue is even more compounding. It gives a complete unfair advantage during 1v1 and team engagements. 

 

This almost forces players to have orb lord in order to play.  

 

 

My recommendations: 

 

Nerf Extractor - Make it so it can only pull EU, not health orbs. 

This would effectively kill that internal

 

Nerf Health Orb - Amount from 120 to 60 except from orbs you get from a kill, leave those at 120. 

Maybe but should be for all orbs.

 

Repair Kit and Advanced Repair kit - Can be kept as is. 

Rather modify extractor, and repair kits, fix the extraction and amount rates, base and with internals, also don't let it stack up with the orb count


Edited by shosca, 29 March 2015 - 03:23 PM.

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#5
Sylhiri

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I hate to be "that guy" who brings this up again but nerfing orbs would just make air combat even more favorable.


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#6
Silverfire

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Make the Extractor work like the Reconstructor almost. It won't work if you're currently taking fire.  5 seconds out of combat, it kicks in.  If you don't take incoming fire for 5 seconds while in a combat situation, I guess you'd be home free to use Extractor, but you'd have to avoid fire for 5 full seconds, not even a sliver of damage.  


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#7
KilleR_OrigiNs

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I hate to be "that guy" who brings this up again but nerfing orbs would just make air combat even more favorable.

Ya, and the negative there is... Easier targets?

I don't know if Orb Lording is why I've been on such a complete loss streak at this point, but to be honest, it's an issue any way you look at it.

Air combat is often a lesser concern as far as I can tell. I don't complain when I'm killed by the dude in the air the whole time, I complain when I can't deal enough damage to kill someone.



#8
Sylhiri

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Ya, and the negative there is... Easier targets?

I don't know if Orb Lording is why I've been on such a complete loss streak at this point, but to be honest, it's an issue any way you look at it.

Air combat is often a lesser concern as far as I can tell. I don't complain when I'm killed by the dude in the air the whole time, I complain when I can't deal enough damage to kill someone.

 

Depends on mech and weapon.



#9
shosca

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I guess i should put some numbers here. An orb is 170 health. Hyginos measured 34 hps naked, 45.22 with extractor, 42.5 with ARK, and 53.125 with both.

 

Tech heal beam is 55 out of combat and 35 in combat.

 

So you can reach out of combat heal levels while still being in combat.


Edited by shosca, 29 March 2015 - 04:01 PM.

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#10
MomOw

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Limit health regen' stacking should be a good start, no ?
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#11
AsianJoyKiller

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I wonder if nerfing orbs, either directly or indirectly, would place more importance in the meta on having a Tech. Something to keep in mind.
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#12
Sylhiri

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I wonder if nerfing orbs, either directly or indirectly, would place more importance in the meta on having a Tech. Something to keep in mind.

 

They are actually welded to Incinerator's bottom so I don't think it would effect other mechs too much.



#13
DreamedArtist

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This is a real issue and is game breaking. During TPG, if your team didn't orb lord, you lost. In a DM, if you can run an orb lord mech, you basically can soak up huge amounts of damage and repair at an astounding rate. Get on top of two or more repair orbs and the issue is even more compounding. It gives a complete unfair advantage during 1v1 and team engagements. 

 

This almost forces players to have orb lord in order to play.  

 

 

My recommendations: 

 

Nerf Extractor - Make it so it can only pull EU, not health orbs. 

Nerf Health Orb - Amount from 120 to 60 except from orbs you get from a kill, leave those at 120. 

Repair Kit and Advanced Repair kit - Can be kept as is. 

 

I noticed this playing with you today  facing that  iarenotdave guy I could not kill him at all he would be regaining health faster then I can do damage even with a heavy blasting him right in the face with tow and det with chaingun...  and every other match as well for that fact everyone is using this build now...  This needs a major nerf


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#14
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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I wonder if nerfing orbs, either directly or indirectly, would place more importance in the meta on having a Tech. Something to keep in mind.

I think it will be decided by whether the tradeoff in player slot from a non-Tech to a Tech is worthwhile or not. Given my understanding, the item/internal combination for orb lord is simply too efficient compared to other item/internal combinations. In fact, it is the only blatant synergy that exists across the item-internal barrier, in addition to having internal-internal synergy.

 

Extractors need to do only what they are described in-game to do: increase speed of pull, not increase amount pulled. I do not support the OP's nerf.

Health orb item nerf: This sounds reasonable.

RK and ARK: I'm beginning to think these need tweaking. However, if the above two changes are simultaneously applied, I think we can keep the RK and ARK as they are.


Thank you for your time,

 

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#15
deidarall

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Personally I do not like how central items are at the moment overall. Due to the cool-down system, and the nature of the game with how often deaths happen items are central to a ton of fights, if it be EMP, det, or any other item there is no reason not to use it or really care, cause at the end of the day using items gives you a edge and can turn fights, and you can even at times use two items for a duel if you wish, the cool down is quite simply ridiculous. I would rather have the old system where items are not limited and you have a 40 second cool-down so players can not just always use items than to have it to where it is now, where players just toss out items like candy cause the cool down is short and well you get em back after death so you might as well spam em to stay alive. 

 

The air stuff is also annoying cause it lets people just back up and shoot down on you, both of these systems are simple rewards for little input or skill. 

 

What is stronger than a orb in terms of turning a fight? Not much. What is stronger at turning a fight than EMP? Not much. What turns team fights better than scanner? Not much. All of these items are central, and you can have more than one item. It breaks the game cause suddenly the most powerful things in the game just require you pressing F and not much else aside from maybe a bit of basic aim.

 

Some abilities also have this issue, every fight with a G2 raider is a fight with a guy on his ability, almost every time. The gren? Ya it's ability is not far off, not in terms of the cool down or how often it is used compared to the G2 but it is just a simple advantage with no downside.

 

The air stuff is the same way, you see people use it as a central way to play a ton of the time, cause it is just a simple way to keep distance. All these tools that players get? All this fake depth, and choice?   It's all a lie. 

 

The air stuff is too central, everyone uses it as a go to for basic mechs to keep distance vs a ton of mech times and as a semi-counter to projectile weps. Items are too central, again a go too. As are abilities.

 

For the items, issue I suggest going back to the old system of long cool downs (30+ seconds depending on the item) and one item choice. Items like this should not be central to so many duels and team engagements. Plus items can have different cool-downs instead of having a standard cool-down which is odd in of itself. 

 

Several powers/ abilities need to be reworked. Don't have them be so central to the game, and focus on powers that give utility rather than straight up power/ movement. Maybe have a ability where for 1 second the scout has super powerful radar and gets a general idea where people are, and make it's cool down not related to death, but carry over. Regardless overall make powers less central. They are just derpy ways to win fights. However good powers that are interesting are, infin/pred, scout,  actually incinerator has a good ability from a design point of view cause there is a real risk to using it despite how badly balanced the mech itself is, the turret modes,(some of which need to be adjusted but at least they are interesting and have trade offs) All of these can be offset by how the other person played, or they have some sort of trade off.  Bad examples are G2 Raider, Raider, Gren, these give direct power, and are central to how these mechs win battles by powers in a direct way, with no trade off aside from maybe the player mistiming it and not getting to use it. Quite simply how often gameplay is central to powers is annoying.

 

The wind walking. Here is something that again has a idea of adding depth to the game but has become way too central compared to ground work. I use it in my heat gren to keep distance, and am rewarded in duels, team fights, and vs a ton of mechs that try to pressure me by boosting or using ground work, and really there efforts just don't matter if I boost up look down and shot them right in the face while I back up, and with little effort control the pacing of the fight. There is no reason not to, once I hit dirt I will still be able to fight, and really a ton of people use it for all sorts of mechs to keep distance or to push up, it quite simply has made the game uniform in a massive way. I look at it like this, if a mech in the game has an TOW/GL weapon to corner play with then there ability to fly has to be limited greatly. The argument that  it makes sense on some mechs is fine, but for it to be this uniform does not help those mechs instead it makes the mechs that can do both more central, case and point G2 assault vs assault. The constant space pressing as a option for all mechs has to be rethought, the argument of people being simple to hit is not good enough to detract from the fact that it is very central to the game, and really if you think hell-fires, and G2 assault needs to keep it that is fine, but it is just a simple way to keep distance where movement is everything in hawken, and overall it is just too central to how these Sustained/ TOW  mechs fight when they should have to corner play at some point to feel the disadvantage of having a sustained weapon as apposed to just floating off, constantly doing DPS. 

 

All these things were thought up of to increase depth into the game I bet, but instead became the most central plays, something they all have in common. 


Edited by deidarall, 29 March 2015 - 04:42 PM.

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#16
OmegaNull

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Make the Extractor work like the Reconstructor almost. It won't work if you're currently taking fire.  5 seconds out of combat, it kicks in.  If you don't take incoming fire for 5 seconds while in a combat situation, I guess you'd be home free to use Extractor, but you'd have to avoid fire for 5 full seconds, not even a sliver of damage.  

I like this idea. 


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#17
LaurenEmily

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Make the Extractor work like the Reconstructor almost. It won't work if you're currently taking fire.  5 seconds out of combat, it kicks in.  If you don't take incoming fire for 5 seconds while in a combat situation, I guess you'd be home free to use Extractor, but you'd have to avoid fire for 5 full seconds, not even a sliver of damage.  

Simple but effective, i would vote for this


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#18
HubbaBubba9849

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We already have a topic for this, but oh well.

 

I'd say just remove or greatly reduce stacked healing. Right now, the repair rate from orbs stacks directly on top of one another (with extractor, 1 orb = 50 p/s, 2 orbs = 100 p/s, 3 orbs = 150 p/s, etc.). I suggest either making it so you can only absorb one orb at a time or multiple orbs stack at a non-linear rate (eg: 50-70-80).

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Edited by HubbaBubba9849, 30 March 2015 - 11:32 AM.

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#19
Nept

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Simple but effective, i would vote for this

 

Make the Extractor work like the Reconstructor almost. It won't work if you're currently taking fire.  5 seconds out of combat, it kicks in.  If you don't take incoming fire for 5 seconds while in a combat situation, I guess you'd be home free to use Extractor, but you'd have to avoid fire for 5 full seconds, not even a sliver of damage.  

 

That would render it almost useless.  If you're not taking incoming fire for 5 seconds, you may as well repair normally.  Just adjust the absorption rates a bit.


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#20
shosca

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That would render it almost useless.  If you're not taking incoming fire for 5 seconds, you may as well repair normally.  Just adjust the absorption rates a bit.

 

I think he means the base hps rate. In combat you extract at base rate. Out of combat you extract with extractor bonus. Might work with some tweaking.

 

But it would be better to just adjust the base rate directly.


Edited by shosca, 29 March 2015 - 06:05 PM.


#21
Hyginos

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Make the Extractor work like the Reconstructor almost. It won't work if you're currently taking fire.  5 seconds out of combat, it kicks in.  If you don't take incoming fire for 5 seconds while in a combat situation, I guess you'd be home free to use Extractor, but you'd have to avoid fire for 5 full seconds, not even a sliver of damage.  

 

I would say more like 1 second. That would nerf orb tanking without making the internals useless.


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#22
gopherAnime

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We already have a topic for this, but oh well.

 

I'd say just remove or greatly reduce stacked healing. Right now, the repair rate from orbs stacks directly on top of one another (with extractor, 1 orb = 50 p/s, 2 orbs = 100 p/s, 3 orbs = 150 p/s, etc.). I suggest either making it so you can only absorb one orb at a time or multiple orbs stack at a non-linear rate (eg: 50-70-80).

I like serial healing idea. Makes sense: like how rpg player has 3 HP potions, but only 1 mouth obviously & must use them in serial.

 

Extractor: as is (fix the orb instead). Extractor is "usually" better on fast mechs, while Armor Fusers on slow mechs (fatty can't move to all the orbs fast enough).

 

AF: Buff Armor Fuser so more players besides brawlers choose AF instead of Extractor, 20 seconds for only 25% hp and must get a kill is a lot in a fast-paced shooter.

 

Health Orbs: all orbs 80~100. 60 might encourage spamming DET. Currently item orb has 2 second wait time before heal. If we require serial healing AND 2 second wait on all health orbs (include death orbs), it can balance the choice between movement/escape VS orb squatting. Then extractor can stay as is.

 

Example: Berserker with Extractor+ARK lands on his own item orb + death orb. Assume each 100 hp.

Wait 2s--------, 2s heal 100hp from item orb, wait 2s--------, 2s heal 100hp from death orb.

That's 200hp/8s, effectively 25hp/s. Probably shorten wait time to balance with other internals/tech. 1s wait would make effective rate 33hp/s over 3s, or 25hp/s over 2s if their impatient. This also fixes problem of fast mech getting 50hp by gliding across an orb. It must commit to the position for 3s for that 50hp gain.

 

Repair Kit and Advanced Repair kit: as is.



#23
CrimsonKaim

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This is a real issue and is game breaking. During TPG, if your team didn't orb lord, you lost. In a DM, if you can run an orb lord mech, you basically can soak up huge amounts of damage and repair at an astounding rate. Get on top of two or more repair orbs and the issue is even more compounding. It gives a complete unfair advantage during 1v1 and team engagements. 

 

This almost forces players to have orb lord in order to play.  

 

 

My recommendations: 

 

Nerf Extractor - Make it so it can only pull EU, not health orbs. 

Nerf Health Orb - Amount from 120 to 60 except from orbs you get from a kill, leave those at 120. 

Repair Kit and Advanced Repair kit - Can be kept as is. 

 

 

 

You could also remove the extractor completely if it only pulls EU. I mean, why the hell would you buy an internal for one game mode ONLY?

The heal orb can be kept as it is but I would like to see the heal orbs dropped by death mechs removed, because it (1.) makes no sense to actual repair yourself from parts you just scrapped and (2.) these are totally situational and have nothing to do with tactics or skill.

 

Additionally, prevent "multi-orb-healing" which means that you can only heal from one orb at a time even though you stand at 3 orbs.

 

This should do and work fine without changign that much on the internals. And I have to say, I don't really care what the TPG needs, we discuss Hawken, not a modified way of how some people play it :P


Edited by FakeName, 29 March 2015 - 10:11 PM.

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#24
bacon_avenger

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You could also remove the extractor completely if it only pulls EU. I mean, why the hell would you buy an internal for one game mode ONLY?

Options, something the game has been kind of lacking since early open beta.

 

Remember when we couldn't swap around internals between matches?  I knew of more than one person who would get a duplicate mechs and set them up for specific game modes.  What good was the EU tank internal but for siege?  People bought it and used it for that alone.

 

Side note for those not aware, this time frame where we couldn't go into the garage between matches, this is why the assault and fred are so similar.  We can't buy another CRT, so the assault was intended as a substitute if we wanted multiples.


Edited by bacon_avenger, 29 March 2015 - 10:29 PM.

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#25
CrimsonKaim

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Options, something the game has been kind of lacking since early open beta.

 

Remember when we couldn't swap around internals between matches?  I knew of more than one person who would get a duplicate mechs and set them up for specific game modes.  What good was the EU tank internal but for siege?  People bought it and used it for that alone.

 

Side note for those not aware, this time frame where we couldn't go into the garage between matches, this is why the assault and fred are so similar.  We can't buy another CRT, so the assault was intended as a substitute if we wanted multiples.

 

 

But remember, in this time, Hawken lived.

 

However, I am honestly not a friend of customizing your whole mech in matches, between matches, yes, but not in matches.

So with an EU extractor, do I have to buy 3 new mechs for Siege?


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#26
bacon_avenger

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But remember, in this time, Hawken lived.

That it did.
 

However, I am honestly not a friend of customizing your whole mech in matches, between matches, yes, but not in matches.
So with an EU extractor, do I have to buy 3 new mechs for Siege?

That, I do not know, nor do I have a good answer for. I was mainly responding to the bit about why someone would buy an internal for one particular game mode.

 

I've also not really juggled my internals around between matches either as I found the time given to be too short before the match started.

 

But as you stated, Hawken lived during that time.  Perhaps it's time to look at moving back toward that time and it's limitations, or at least look at bringing the best parts of it back into the current game and see what happens (or at least test it and see what others think of a new implementation of it).


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#27
Analysis

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Of all the things to complain about and you chose orbs?

 

Larger balance issues need to be addressed before orbs.



#28
AsianJoyKiller

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Of all the things to complain about and you chose orbs?

 

Larger balance issues need to be addressed before orbs.

Um... They are actually quite the balance issue.


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#29
Xacius

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Um... They are actually quite the balance issue.

 

I'd rather see items go back to the regenerative/single use capacity they had before.  3x of the same item, as potent as some items are, is pretty OP. 

 

The regeneration rates could determine the item's size.  Fastest regeneration rate would be somewhere around 40s, depending on the item. 

 

That was always the better solution.  Though, I'm more in favor of seeing items (and abilities) have their effects lessened but deploy quicker and recharge quicker. 


Edited by Xacius, 30 March 2015 - 01:50 AM.

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#30
BIsmuthZornisse

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maybe the devs can try reducing the healing rate of orbs when the mech is NOT in repair mode. Same should also apply to the technician's yellow beam.


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#31
defekt

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maybe the devs can try reducing the healing rate of orbs when the mech is NOT in repair mode.

Orb Lord butt plugs!


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#32
LoC_TR

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It takes away from the game in my opinion, the orb build allows you to stay in combat way beyond it's intended means. It easily crushes many other builds and makes them completely useless. I think by the end of the season 2 of TPG 10/12 players in a game ran orb lord. You can pretty much 1v1 anyone that doesn't have the build as long as there are orbs around. For some maps it made tech obsolete I suppose, it was way more helpful to have a sixth dps mech out there. The only mech I really don't find orb lord useful on is a T-32 Raider only because it won't benefit as much from it then an Assault with the orb build. I basically had to learn how to out burst the healing, it became a really stupid game haha. Basically I would sit in front of someone (with Failsafe btw) sit on the orbs with them and try and draw out a self-damaging TOW/GL or something, eat up all the orbs, once the orbs are gone then I can burst them down. Basically I'm not trying to beat them over health, I'm trying to out pace heat and fuel. If they can't move they are easy to hit. 

 

Pros:

  • It's way less risky to sit and heal up with an orb build.
  • higher combat time (time on points/ completing objectives)
  • larger health pool /w other damage mitigating internals (1 slot deflectors)
  • Easier pushing, higher sustain
  • Can drop a Tech in favor for something with higher deeps (even better for Missile Assault)
  • Kills drop orbs, snowballing (oh i get a kill and i get to heal? yay!)

Cons:

  • Less utility 
  • some mechs benefit less fighting other orb builds (Raider, Predator) 

 

 

Here's a silly vid; you can see where it can get kind of ridiculous, and the potential it has to make already hard to kill mechs even more "OP." 

(x9x8x7x is using orb build, i'm on 2 slot failsafe/deflectors/extractor) 


Edited by LoC_TR, 30 March 2015 - 04:14 AM.

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#33
Superkamikazee

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Orbs is life, orbs is all.

 

I'm guilty of this, between orbs, radar scanner and scrambler, those are the only items I use. I'd argue all three can be a bit cheese ball. 


No crew


#34
shosca

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  1. Drop the orb health from 170 to 135
  2. Drop the base hps from 34 to 27
  3. Remove extraction stacking
  4. ????
  5. Profit

These changes keeps the time it takes to absorb an orb same (5 seconds bare, 3.76 with extractor, 4 with ARK and 3.2 with extractor + ARK)



#35
Pastorius

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Something that I found I wanted to do intuitively when playing HAWKEN is to have the ability to destroy orbs.


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KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

...and let slip the dogs of war...

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#36
PoopSlinger

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Orbs or death,   pretty lame options.  Especially when people will run full orbwhore and then fuzzy bunny about somebody dropping a scanner.


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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#37
HugeGuts

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I'm for reducing the total health gained from all orbs, and removing stacking healing from multiple orbs.

 

Having more internal options would help as well. Currently, there's only one Offensive internal (Failsafes.) And, while there are mutliple Mobility internals, only one is worth using (Air Compressor.)



#38
eth0

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If When orbs get another change, I hope it's more than an increased delay for use. I think decreasing their health would be great, but I'd still prefer to play repair only.
 

Orbs or death,   pretty lame options.  Especially when people will run full orbwhore and then fuzzy bunny about somebody dropping a scanner.

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Pubstomping is a whole different strategic discussion, however, and usually just becomes an exploration of the ethics of dumpstering randos.

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Why mech game make when you no mech game have you don't want to make? 


#39
ThirdEyE

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I could get behind going back to the item cooldown system.  That would fix a lot of the issues with having too many items in play in quick succession, not only for orbs (i.e. stacking) but for things like shields and emps as well.

 

Imo orb heal value should be reduced down to about 100 so that it's still a significant amount, but is more in line with current health and damage values.


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#40
OmegaNull

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I could get behind going back to the item cooldown system.  That would fix a lot of the issues with having too many items in play in quick succession, not only for orbs (i.e. stacking) but for things like shields and emps as well.

 

Imo orb heal value should be reduced down to about 100 so that it's still a significant amount, but is more in line with current health and damage values.

I am also in behind going back tot he old system of item cooldowns. Personally, I liked it as it offered more a strategic play style. 


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Scootin' 'n Shoot | Bawlin' 'n Brawlin' | Ragin' 'n Raidin'

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"Velocitas et Eradico"





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