24 replies to this topic

[Mevaker]

Hey Guys, So I have a few Ideas about changing(revamping) Hawken All together. I'd like to hear your thoughts. These are just my opinions and are the result of my experiences and discussions I've had with some of you already, Resulting in "this is what hawken might look like if My world were perfect."

 

Mechs:

            Ideally these should resemble great, heavy, Bipedal tanks. We have three classes, neat!! they should totally stand out. A classes run circles around C-Classes with light to medium armaments can deal damage to each other and a fair amount to B classes, (A Skilled A class should have no problem demolishing an B class given a skill gap to allow it and should steer clear from a 1v1 With a C Class. B-Classes Are more nimble than the C but still get outrun By A classes, Likewise they are equipped with Medium armaments, giving them a slight(if any) firepower advantage over the A class, But still Unable to match the C-Class for weaponry. They Can Defeat a C-Class with a combination of movement and firepower but shouldn't win a straight up face to face with a full health C under normal circumstances (alpha strikes not withstanding, though generally these are not delivered face to face). C-Classes are big, heavy, slow-moving, bipedal fortresses armed to the teeth with the biggest guns available, with variations to allow for different 'builds'. These things should seek the middle ground in combat, with variations in armament allowing for different engagement options. Facing a skilled Medium, or even several-Less Skilled Mediums alone should not be a good Idea due to how slow it moves, But in exchange it should demolish most things unfortunate enough to get caught in it's weapon Systems. It would likely require Support from a team to survive a heated engagement, and not likely to be very effective close quarters unless facing an A-Class head on. Ideally you'd Have a Team Composition of 2 A-Classes to Act as Scouts/Harassers, 3 B Classes to Act as middle ground fighters/repairers/Utility and 1 C-Class to provide heavy weaponry support and/or holding a position/ Objective.

 

More to follow but I have to get back to work!

 

EDIT:

 

Pace of game/TTK:

 

Ideally, while the person with the drop on an opponent with the purpose of launching an alpha strike/sneak attack should have a considerable advantage when using said tactic, (essentially guaranteeing victory unless they are facing someone substantially more skilled) the alpha strike should not cause instant death. What I propose, (and yes, it has been suggested elsewhere) is that TTK be extended just enough to where different skill levels of players can begin to observe the nature of how these trades happen. If you get blasted with everything another mech has, it's gonna hurt, and it should, but a new person entering the game should not get insta-deleted simply because they haven't played enough to get their bearings yet. Should they die for committing a mistake? Certainly, but they should be able to see  how it happened. delaying the TTK any further than that is kinda pointless and makes the game go stale fast.

 

 

Customization:

 

Here's where perhaps my ideas get a little more "creative". Mech customization should include a wider variety of customization options. I'd like to see things like Caterpillar tracks for C-Classes that are purely cosmetic, blame it on the engine capacities of the mechs, maybe a 4-6 wheel equivalent for A-classes, and perhaps the ability to mount your weapons differently on the mech, like over the "shoulders" instead of replacing the "hands", allowing for different taunt/emote options. Additionally, I'd kill performance-Based Internals. Armor should protect you from damage-No matter what. Perhaps ballistic armor for projectiles, and something else for explosions, and something that is a little of both, ammunition types based on what your mech does, like, incendiary missiles, Armor-piercing bullets to deal with the new armor types, removing deployable orbs and changing the extractor to only gather EU. The shock coil and failsafe are neat, and IMO fit well, oh, and I'dkill the air180 and the air compressor, again, these are mechs, they shouldn't be able to "fly", "hovering" should be used to reach high places and cross relatively short gaps, not make giant flying tanks, that can dodge bullets mid-air.

 

more to follow, I'll add more things to this post as ideas come to me/time allows, cheers!

Edited by Mevaker, 24 August 2016 - 05:12 AM.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

i believe hawken is already designed this way

[Silverfire]

This sounds pretty much like Hawken already

[HOHOHOSANTA]

Howken is word format

[Elite_is_salty]

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

took all of 20 minutes to read... was like noo wasy hes describing hawken it as is, must be a joke lol

still hawkens finished game we been through the ups n downs of nerfs and lags

Edited by MechFighter5e3bf9, 23 August 2016 - 07:27 PM.

[Mevaker]

took all of 20 minutes to read... was like noo wasy hes describing hawken it as is, must be a joke lol

still hawkens finished game we been through the ups n downs of nerfs and lags

Yeah, I must apologize, I couldn't find a place to save a draft, so I am posting this by parts, I think I just got 2 more sections up or something, I realize the first part seems kinda similar to what we have now in some respects, but again, if the game didn't have some aspects of what I liked, I wouldn't bother playing, Thanks for the reply though.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

well glad it was everything you wanted, keep playing have fun

[Mevaker]

Not exactly everything, like I was saying in the original post edits, there are SOME changes I'd like to see, namely customization and slower pace of game, better audio effects, things of that nature, but again, I'm making edits to the OP as I go

[Silverfire]

 

Pace of game/TTK:

 

Ideally, while the person with the drop on an opponent with the purpose of launching an alpha strike/sneak attack should have a considerable advantage when using said tactic, (essentially guaranteeing victory unless they are facing someone substantially more skilled) the alpha strike should not cause instant death. What I propose, (and yes, it has been suggested elsewhere) is that TTK be extended just enough to where different skill levels of players can begin to observe the nature of how these trades happen. If you get blasted with everything another mech has, it's gonna hurt, and it should, but a new person entering the game should not get insta-deleted simply because they haven't played enough to get their bearings yet. Should they die for committing a mistake? Certainly, but they should be able to see  how it happened. delaying the TTK any further than that is kinda pointless and makes the game go stale fast.

 

 

This can be fixed by not changing the pace of the game, and adding a kill cam that shows the lead up to their own death.

 

This accomplishes two things. 

1. It allows players who enjoy the faster pace game to continue enjoying it.

2. It allows players to see how their opponent was able to kill them, thus eliminating the need to slow the game down purely so that new players can learn the game. They can both enjoy the fast pace of the game and see how they died, thus allowing them to teach themselves not to get into those situations.

 

Yours is a change focused solely on the benefit of newer, less experienced players and I am of the belief that it does not address the wider audience.  People enjoy the fast pace of the game, reviews praised Hawken as fast paced mech combat.  Why remove it, or lessen it?

Edited by Silverfire, 30 August 2016 - 07:35 AM.

[CraftyDus]

if hawken were any slower changes would be undetectable by the human eye

if hawken were any slower we'd all just use flight sticks

if hawken were any slower it'd be a telltale game

if hawken were any slower it'd be a tabletop rpg

if hawken were any slower it would make cs seem fast

if hawken were any slower, it'd be a mobile app

if hawken were any slower she really sits AROUND the house

if hawken were any slower, we could play it by telegram. full stop

[D0nald_Trump]

all I can say is

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Git Gud

[coldform]

"Forum posts? I lovem. Lovem. I have lots of posts. I have the best posts.
America
Needs
More
Forum posts."

/derail

Herken needs yet another guide.

Edited by coldform, 30 August 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[Mevaker]

This can be fixed by not changing the pace of the game, and adding a kill cam that shows the lead up to their own death.

 

This accomplishes two things. 

1. It allows players who enjoy the faster pace game to continue enjoying it.

2. It allows players to see how their opponent was able to kill them, thus eliminating the need to slow the game down purely so that new players can learn the game. They can both enjoy the fast pace of the game and see how they died, thus allowing them to teach themselves not to get into those situations.

 

Yours is a change focused solely on the benefit of newer, less experienced players and I am of the belief that it does not address the wider audience.  People enjoy the fast pace of the game, reviews praised Hawken as fast paced mech combat.  Why remove it, or lessen it?

I Hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense, now that you mention it, I might just include that as an alternative. but I'm curious, what else  would You change/improve?

 

 

 

all I can say is

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Git Gud

That is something I need to work on, but in the mean time, either slowing the game down slightly, or (as Silverfire stated above) adding  a proper Kill Cam might help me see what I'm doing wrong and improve it. I may not be as good as you, Mr.Trump but building walls does not solve everything.

Edited by Mevaker, 30 August 2016 - 09:58 AM.

[dorobo]

I'll record gameplay and watch it in slowmo. Frame by frame sometimes 

[CraftyDus]

slowing the game down

 

 

This will not help one be a better player.

It would only serve to make the game easier to understand for those who would need it slower.

[Mevaker]

This will not help one be a better player.

It would only serve to make the game easier to understand for those who would need it slower.

          But that's the point, isn't it? understanding? it's not about being able to compete with people who've been playing the game for years after a couple of hours of gameplay, its understanding why you were instantly deleted  out of what sometimes seems like nowhere. It's about not making it quite as hostile and daunting as soon as you first step in. Am I catering to the needs of the "new" players(hypothetical as they may be)? perhaps, but veterans can better adjust to changes to what they already know by heart, and had years to learn. The casual and the new player often does not have that same luxury, and maybe it has never happened to you, Dus, but coming into a room (server? match?) getting annihilated from the get-go with no clue what happened with complete strangers strangers telling you "LOLOLOLOLOL, you F***in suck, skrub git gud uninstall kill yourself" will quite often (not necessarily always, there are some who like this behavior) get someone new to do just that, uninstall the game and never come back. I am not suggesting something radical, just a slight tweak to a couple of things here, and the beautiful part of it all, this is just how I personally feel on the subject, and I think it's cool that you disagree, not everyone does. I also believe that Air Dodging shouldn't be a thing as ludicrous as some believe this to be, but again, that just fits into my vision of what a prefect hawken would be, which is the subject of this thread.

 

I am interested in hearing however, how would you change things?

I'll record gameplay and watch it in slowmo. Frame by frame sometimes 

This is an awesome Idea. Is there a tutorial somewhere on here on how to do this? (never recorded gameplay before)

[CraftyDus]

       instantly deleted  out of what sometimes seems like nowhere

 

The ttk and movement is so slow in hawken that this doesn't happen.

Slowing down the game will not help.

It's already so very slow.

There's even an indicator on your hud showing you where the sound and damage you have been taking are coming from.

Literally the game is pointing out to you what is happening in real time.

The game provides a tutorial and includes helpful tip popups between rounds.

In addition, there is a mountain of community made content that can be pored over.

Quit trying to hit. HIT.

 

 

 

Rather than change the game to accomodate one's ability to understand what occurs during a typical in-game confrontation, practice and train to improve one's own performance in such a scenario.

Instead of trying to bend the spoon, try to understand the truth.

There is no spoon.

 

 

My philosophy to training in hawken pubs is to run with weights on.

Remove your internals and items and spend a few hundred hours trying to rise to this handicap.

Eventually you will begin to survive encounters. Gradually you will attain and maybe even surpass your previous "normal" abilities in this item-less and internals-less condition.

And after a good amount of time has passed, put your favorite former internals and items back on and have an epiphany.

You are starting to move like them.

 

 

You are starting to believe

 

Edited by CraftyDus, 01 September 2016 - 07:57 AM.

[Silverfire]

Hawken's TTK is already so high compared to almost every other arena shooter, or shooters in general.  The existence of one shot kills in those games doesn't cause people to cry "slow the game down so I can understand!"  

 

A higher TTK will do little to accomplish the issues of educating players but moreso serve to simply unncessarily lengthen encounters and promote highly defensive gameplay.  Hawken is already incredibly defensive in nature.  Air detonation.  Splash damage on nearly every mech.  High TTK.  All of these promote lazy, defensive gameplay which unfairly benefits the defender and cripples attacks.  Allowing near one hit kills, or one hit kills in general can serve to counteract the dominance of defensive gameplay.

 

 

What this game has always lacked is enough competent ways to communicate information to the player.  This was seen in the original HUD for a pre-Ascension example.  Beautiful HUD, immersive HUD, but it was fuzzy bunny in the fact that it communicated information terribly.  Stuff was all over the screen, health, fuel, item availability, ability, and that gigantic-ass reticle.  Things were small, hard to see, etc.  What Ascension HUD update did right was communicate important player information clearly and definitively - health, fuel, ability, items.

 

We complain that the game does not communicate information to the player well - "How did I die?" "How do I lock on?" "How do I play Siege?"

 

So is the solution, then, to dumb down the game so that people can figure it out a little easier?  Or do we improve communication of pertinent information so that players can see it clearly, and then start improving, instead of floundering about.  I personally believe that a higher TTK, or a slower pace of game, would not serve to help new players at all.  It does nothing other than alter gameplay and a game that reviews raved about, specifically fast paced mech combat.

 

 

 

Adding a kill cam showing the leadup to how you died is far more beneficial than slowing the whole game down just so that people can figure how they died.  It's more of a minor tweak than the literally game changing aspect you propose, no matter if you think "slowing the game down a little" is a minor tweak.  Because it's not.  That's a huge tweak.  A minor tweak would be adding a kill cam.

[Mevaker]

The ttk and movement is so slow in hawken that this doesn't happen.

Slowing down the game will not help.

It's already so very slow.

There's even an indicator on your hud showing you where the sound and damage you have been taking are coming from.

Literally the game is pointing out to you what is happening in real time.

The game provides a tutorial and includes helpful tip popups between rounds.

In addition, there is a mountain of community made content that can be pored over.

Quit trying to hit. HIT.

 

 

 

Rather than change the game to accomodate one's ability to understand what occurs during a typical in-game confrontation, practice and train to improve one's own performance in such a scenario.

Instead of trying to bend the spoon, try to understand the truth.

There is no spoon.

 

 

My philosophy to training in hawken pubs is to run with weights on.

Remove your internals and items and spend a few hundred hours trying to rise to this handicap.

Eventually you will begin to survive encounters. Gradually you will attain and maybe even surpass your previous "normal" abilities in this item-less and internals-less condition.

And after a good amount of time has passed, put your favorite former internals and items back on and have an epiphany.

You are starting to move like them.

 

 

You are starting to believe

 

 

so then, you would rather change the quality of the  player  rather than the game A fair point, in it's own right, and I may even try this to improve personally as a player. My question to you, oh crafty one, is there anything in the game you'd change?

Hawken's TTK is already so high compared to almost every other arena shooter, or shooters in general.  The existence of one shot kills in those games doesn't cause people to cry "slow the game down so I can understand!"  

 

A higher TTK will do little to accomplish the issues of educating players but moreso serve to simply unncessarily lengthen encounters and promote highly defensive gameplay.  Hawken is already incredibly defensive in nature.  Air detonation.  Splash damage on nearly every mech.  High TTK.  All of these promote lazy, defensive gameplay which unfairly benefits the defender and cripples attacks.  Allowing near one hit kills, or one hit kills in general can serve to counteract the dominance of defensive gameplay.

 

 

What this game has always lacked is enough competent ways to communicate information to the player.  This was seen in the original HUD for a pre-Ascension example.  Beautiful HUD, immersive HUD, but it was fuzzy bunny in the fact that it communicated information terribly.  Stuff was all over the screen, health, fuel, item availability, ability, and that gigantic-ass reticle.  Things were small, hard to see, etc.  What Ascension HUD update did right was communicate important player information clearly and definitively - health, fuel, ability, items.

 

We complain that the game does not communicate information to the player well - "How did I die?" "How do I lock on?" "How do I play Siege?"

 

So is the solution, then, to dumb down the game so that people can figure it out a little easier?  Or do we improve communication of pertinent information so that players can see it clearly, and then start improving, instead of floundering about.  I personally believe that a higher TTK, or a slower pace of game, would not serve to help new players at all.  It does nothing other than alter gameplay and a game that reviews raved about, specifically fast paced mech combat.

 

 

 

Adding a kill cam showing the leadup to how you died is far more beneficial than slowing the whole game down just so that people can figure how they died.  It's more of a minor tweak than the literally game changing aspect you propose, no matter if you think "slowing the game down a little" is a minor tweak.  Because it's not.  That's a huge tweak.  A minor tweak would be adding a kill cam.

The kill cam is an awesome Idea, and you do have some points here. I believe I was perhaps mis-representing just how little of A difference I was proposing, but in truth, without measurable metrics I don't think I can accurately explain that. Additionally, I differ from your opinion that "defensive" game play necessarily means "lazy" as I believe defense has it's own element in counterplay. Personally, I would settle for the kill cam and better status/situational communication, perhaps a more in-depth tutorial. Additionally, however I would like to add that this may be an Arena Shooter, but it's also a mech game, and Inherently, while it's faster pace makes it unique, from an aesthetic  and  sensory Stand point, there is a thing as "too fast". But that has little to do with game balance or gameplay as it does my visual  and sensory preference. Again, I don't believe you're entirely wrong, I think we're just seing things a little differently, good suggestions though.

Edited by Mevaker, 01 September 2016 - 05:10 PM.

[DieselCat]

if hawken were any slower changes would be undetectable by the human eye

if hawken were any slower we'd all just use flight sticks

if hawken were any slower it'd be a telltale game

if hawken were any slower it'd be a tabletop rpg

if hawken were any slower it would make cs seem fast

if hawken were any slower, it'd be a mobile app

if hawken were any slower she really sits AROUND the house

if hawken were any slower, we could play it by telegram. full stop

 

This is just plain stupid...  

 

The game is fine where it's at...certainly doesn't need to be any faster

Edited by DieselCat, 03 September 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[CraftyDus]

This is just plain stupid...  

 

The game is fine where it's at...certainly doesn't need to be any faster

 

You failed to notice the context, and how that applies.

I will break it down for you. Slowly.

 

Mevaker said in the op he wanted ttk increased and the pace of the game slowed.

 

Which is what I was replying to in what you quoted of me.

 

And you did not get it.

 

Does that qualify as "just plain stupid?" (rhetorical)

 

No where in this thread did I say hawken needs to be faster.

 

Do you understand now?

 

Also it'd be a lot funnier if you didn't need it explained. This kills the joke.

[DieselCat]

Now I'm so sad...   

Edited by DieselCat, 03 September 2016 - 11:47 PM.

[dorobo]

If you have nvidia card use shadowplay to record and just watch it on something that can slow it down.. i think can be done in regular players like vlc.

Edited by dorobo, 06 September 2016 - 01:12 AM.

[Mevaker]

If you have nvidia card use shadowplay to record and just watch it on something that can slow it down.. i think can be done in regular players like vlc.

I'm an AMD guy sadly, my graphics card is built into my CPU. supposedly there is a plays.tv function that comes with my Mobo, for recording gameplay i just haven't figured out how to use it reliably

Edited by Mevaker, 06 September 2016 - 10:08 AM.