59 replies to this topic

[JackVandal]

I want to hear what you guys think about the new 16 man servers, both what you like/dislike, should they add more? add less?

 

Personally i find they are a little to hectic on some maps, i feel they would be better with larger maps than ones like origin and such. Interested to hear what you guys think, and please, be civil.

 

Pardon any spelling or grammar.

[Luaq]

Sincerely I think it's awesome and for all maps.

It gives a constant stress of usual competitive games where you can be flanked at any time. TDM with 12Players is usually a bulldozer team that presses down the other team. But in a 16player match it's just enough more people to actually create a recon squad of 3 or 4 that go flank and destroy the little bunnies running off to join their team. I've also felt it was the most balanced games. Worst I saw was 60/35. Which went to 56/60 the match after because people ACTUALLY STAYED in the game and the teams were much better and people adjusted their tactics.

About joining your team after re spawn I somehow find it easier to do so since it's somewhat more spread out than usual. I've never felt in the team as much as I did in this 16 player server since a long while ago. (Except when my real life friends were still playing, when you could tune up your mechs) I think people tend to stick even more together because of the fun of all the sheit going on!

Fawk I wanna play right now but even writing this post is against what I should do right now, fill up some damn job applications haha.

I also see more variety in mech choices.

I feel the game is more fun for techs moving from squad to squad.

HEck if there could be a 24 player server in bigger maps, maybe bazaar or frontline I'd frikken play it. Imagine protecting alleys, literally, because if one squad goes down holy fawk we gotta hold up and counter attack or defense with badass teamwork. I would actually see it work well. Let's say origin map. 4 at the upper part where you have the view on the bridge and 4 enemies at the other side of the bridge. another 4 v 4 at the "road" where you can get to the upper part of the map. another 4 v 4 at the "backalley where the lower level goes to a tight corridor up to the upper part.

Also Items feel more effective since there is more people to use it against

 

 

okay maybe I should go to sleep.  \(-_-' )/

Edited by Luaq, 18 August 2015 - 09:00 PM.

[eth0]

I would love it if the map spawns could handle it. On the big maps it's less bad.

[JackVandal]

i do notice that the servers stay full better on larger servers, though as far as bulldozing goes i notice the larger servers also tend to have larger mmr spreads, like, 1500 to 2250 spread, which gets a little brutal on some maps.

[cbrxx]

Can't help but notice the smurfs love it.  

[Hecatoncheires]

I really really like them and hope they keep them there. They keep you on your toes and busy dog-fighting constantly. They make a Team Death Match feel similar to a siege battle over the AA, but more spread out. Also, I think the most beneficial part of it is that it actually makes killing high mmr players easier since it's practically impossible to avoid being constantly damaged in the chaos. They feel more balanced because of this.

Maybe they can make it even more large scale with a larger map and then it'll be like old-school warfare, except with people constantly disconnecting, hehe.

[Sp3ctrr]

Can't help but notice the smurfs love it.  

 

You don't wanna go there.

 

You really, really don't wanna go there.

[CrimsonKaim]

Just joined a game today again. It was one of the most terrible Hawken experiences ever. The less players the better. Hawken maps are not big enough to efficiently contain more than 10 players in total. If more than 10 players are ingame, it turns out to be a pure "who has the most players in one place" fight rather than a tactical movement reagrding flanking and stuff like that.

 

4 C classes one Tech and one sharpshooter and boom. This is the Hawken we play today. Endless weapon spamming in addition and voilla! A completely random match up without actual skill or any kind of human intelligence present. 

 

Hold LMB + RMB + Spacebar to win. x16

[Erzunterweltler]

Sincerely I think it's awesome and for all maps.

It gives a constant stress of usual competitive games where you can be flanked at any time. TDM with 12Players is usually a bulldozer team that presses down the other team. But in a 16player match it's just enough more people to actually create a recon squad of 3 or 4 that go flank and destroy the little bunnies running off to join their team. I've also felt it was the most balanced games. Worst I saw was 60/35. Which went to 56/60 the match after because people ACTUALLY STAYED in the game and the teams were much better and people adjusted their tactics.

About joining your team after re spawn I somehow find it easier to do so since it's somewhat more spread out than usual. I've never felt in the team as much as I did in this 16 player server since a long while ago. (Except when my real life friends were still playing, when you could tune up your mechs) I think people tend to stick even more together because of the fun of all the sheit going on!

Fawk I wanna play right now but even writing this post is against what I should do right now, fill up some damn job applications haha.

I also see more variety in mech choices.

I feel the game is more fun for techs moving from squad to squad.

HEck if there could be a 24 player server in bigger maps, maybe bazaar or frontline I'd frikken play it. Imagine protecting alleys, literally, because if one squad goes down holy fawk we gotta hold up and counter attack or defense with badass teamwork. I would actually see it work well. Let's say origin map. 4 at the upper part where you have the view on the bridge and 4 enemies at the other side of the bridge. another 4 v 4 at the "road" where you can get to the upper part of the map. another 4 v 4 at the "backalley where the lower level goes to a tight corridor up to the upper part.

Also Items feel more effective since there is more people to use it against

 

I can hardly agree with any statement you made there. 16 players TDM is just a huge mess with no space for any tactical play. A-classes are almost useless due to the large number of enemies they constantly get attacked by, there is almost no room to repair, since when you walk away from your team there are instantly enemies chasing and killing you. So the best "strategy" to use in these big servers is deathballing with a bunch of orblording c-classes, maybe even with a Technician healing them. If any of both teams follows this "strategy" they win 60-10, that's my experience. It requires no thinking at all to play in these servers, as they encourage orblording and ramboing. Bazaar might be the only map that has got enough space for 16 players, the rest of the maps don't.

 

I don't want to have to play in these servers again and 24 players servers would cause an unimaginable mess, trust me, nobody here wants the 24 players servers back, except we get new humongous maps.

[1uster]

Couldn't agree more.

One thing to add: In EU they practical kill any other server in the night by sucking up so many players. With this weak population of players it's just a show stopper.

[Bergwein]

Couldn't agree more.

One thing to add: In EU they practical kill any other server in the night by sucking up so many players. With this weak population of players it's just a show stopper.

 

This.

[Amidatelion]

Rant underneath for courtesy and slightly off-topic.

 

Spoiler

I cannot believe anyone listening thought this was a good idea. There are a grand total of two, maybe three maps that support 16-person server sizes. Origin qualifies only barely, but its construction makes it feel much smaller than it actually is. Frontline and Bazaar are the only maps big enough for this and the spawn dispersal sometimes bites you in the ass anyways. We have repeatedly pointed this out and we know that Reloaded has the ability to limit servers to this. The Mayhem 24-man servers were fun for MA as a once-in-a-while thing, and they were limited to one per region for that reason.

 

These servers are a waste of resources that are having an actively negative effect on server populations if the EU players are to be believed and I see no reason not to. They're a waste of resources that fly in the face of facts previously established by testing and the community. They're a waste of resources that were poorly deployed.

 

This, in conjunction with the laughable balance attempts with scanners and turrets have led me to seriously question Reloaded's ability or commitment to actually listen to feedback. I understand that the sweeping changes it would take to actually balance scanners and turrets would require a rebuild, which they are not yet capable of due to staffing issues (we're well 1 month past the initial timeline of having appropriate people hired). But toying around with damage and health on turrets and scanner radius do nothing to alieviate those items worthlessness and imbalance respectively and the time spent messing around with that is demonstrably wasted instead of usefully spent getting the back-end and staff into a position to actually fix and grow this game.

 

I am always hesitant about asserting that players know better than developers, which is why I am going to lay off on the staffing after this. I know that there can be complications in hiring and that they're none of our business. But rumours are going to keep flying without updated staffing information and a timeline. Level-headed, respected members of the community are already beginning to take those spurious claims by butthurt APB players seriously or otherwise coming to the same conclusion on their own.

 

Outside of staffing (and I know this sounds arrogant but in this case it is true) the players do know better. Furthermore, the vets know more. These server and item changes are just proof of that.

1. 16-man servers don't work outside Bazaar and Frontline because the weight of fire renders A-classes useless, the spawns result in a player being surrounded by the enemy and cut off from the team and the deathballs become immeasurably worse because of HP stacking, which is already an issue in normal games.
2. Scanner is broken because it sees through walls. It doesn't matter how far it sees through them. Reducing the radius is pointless because it does not address that flaw in any appreciable manner. You can throw it inside walls on most maps. It is a legal wallhack, cripples new player's radar awareness and reduces tactical options in a rock-paper-rocketlauncher fashion. You cannot fix this without a ground-up rework.
3. Turrets are useless because their damage is too low, you are limited to 1 of each type and they are hilariously bad at aiming. I am in more danger as a turreted vanguard standing in front of a brand new player than I am against a turret. Upping the damage is not going to help when they miss 75% of shots from 4 mech lengths away and upping the health is pointless when you can walk over them to kill them. (that is not a cue to remove that aspect, Reloaded). Again, you cannot fix this without a ground-up rework. Actually, maybe you can as all of that might be variables like damage. But if you can, then it only lends weight to my point:

These are facts self-evident to anyone who has been playing the game and paying attention. They have been repeatedly stated and roundly ignored.

 

I appreciate trying to improve the servers. Focus on that, get some staff under you and then get on making actual balance changes and content releases that aren't long-buried camos. Preferably listening to people who actually know what they are talking about.

Edited by Amidatelion, 19 August 2015 - 06:44 AM.

[LRod]

I absolutely hate them, and for all the same reasons others have listed, but do agree that at a minimum they tend to collect smurfs like lint rollers.  So at least they help in that regard.

[M4st0d0n]

Same as the old "Mayhem servers must die" conversation. I dont like 8vs8, they're a laggy mess. But...

 

PUBs are not for "tactics", they are for PUBs. Embrace casualness and let people have stupid fun if they so want. Dissolve the useless MMR and give a decent comp mode with proper ranking, maybe?

[PoopSlinger]

MOTHERF0CKING MAYHEM!!!!

 

I love mayhem

[PsychedelicGrass]

I usually find these matches to be too chaotic to allow any of my normal strategies to work, can't be as wreckless as I usually am so I spend most of my time standing around waiting for a good opening. Kinda boring, although the scores have always been a lot closer in comparison to normal servers so that's good.

[Luaq]

Waow, A lot of hate there.

Sincerely in my experience I had fun playing as an A-Class as much as the rest of them in 8 v 8
If we're about to bring this a smurf/vet problem, I also feel "vet" people who don't like the16player servers,

think that are a non sense mayhem because they actually don't understand or don't control what's going on

compared to their so "used to" normal 6v6 servers and their typical winning routine. At least that's what I'm

hearing from the assumed "rants" here. At least there's some bit of compassion about the fact that it can be

fun for "others". I respect the fact that we have different experiences but saying it's total crap and not meant to be
"at least not in these maps" and pointing out "facts" (based on their bad experience) is just being way to radical about it.
I don't mind rants actually as long as they don't try to be proof of something like my good experience about these servers

not trying to proof that the game mode is only good. Heck the whole game is unstable so yeah, I'm actually surprised I had

so many well balanced games and yes interesting flanks and tactics also (someone actually took the time to cover me by taking

hits/attention while I was healing and we managed to push back the front line.) ((In a 6v6 even though it's only 2 less per team,

if I have to repair, people leave me there because they are sleeping in the comfort of playing in the usual 6v6 games))
Again, these are examples of my experience, not proof of anything.

The only thing I would take as a constructive complaint is the fact that it does empty other servers and only because hawken has a low population.
The rest just sounds like rants indeed because they apply to 6v6 unbalanced teams also.



Edit:
 

 

I usually find these matches to be too chaotic to allow any of my normal strategies to work, can't be as wreckless as I usually am so I spend most of my time standing around waiting for a good opening. Kinda boring, although the scores have always been a lot closer in comparison to normal servers so that's good.

 

That is exactly what I mean as in tactics and flanks, you actually have to take the time to think before doing normal/usual strategies. That's what's reviving my fun of playing: "Oh hey not the usual crap, I have to think and adapt compared to my usual tacticts/reflexes, because fuzzy bunny there's bullets flying everywhere and I'm actually scared of getting in."

Edited by Luaq, 19 August 2015 - 10:11 AM.

[JeffMagnum]

The majority of valid criticisms are supportable by viewing common situations on 16m servers through the lens of the current meta though, so it's not just the high-MMR playerbase whining about not being able to stomp as hard. Class and item balance issues tend to be exaggerated (e.g. Assault being even better than normal when taking on extra enemies due to its reliable DPS, low heat gen, and ability), spawn mechanics break, and teams are forced to deathball more than usual because of the lower TTK and decreased probability of finding someone alone. You can enjoy the servers for what they are while still acknowledging that the game isn't built for them.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

MOTHERF0CKING MAYHEM!!!!

I love mayhem

Smurf

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Personally, I'm not wild about them. Bbut I disagree that a-classes are not viable in them and I disagree that my normal tactics are useless. I think the window for high risk high reward attempts is smaller in a 16m server and the opportunity for low risk plays as a solo is much diminished

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

To really score well in 16m separates the great from the mediocre.

I saw above someone opine that it prompted orblording. I disagree, but it is a matter of degree: proper orblording is three orbs, an extractor and repair kit in a heavy,standing on a orb. In a 16m one needs to carry an orb or two and an extractor, but the repair kit can be r placed with another internal. Further, the play is to find the eye of the storm or a spot in the Lee (wake of the deathball) to rapidly self heal hwhile sucking an orb, then to move out. Not quite orblording on a spot.

[Dedhed]

I like them. I've never been very good at discerning tactics viability or how certain things are going other than my own performance, so can't say about any of that. Still like them: not as chaotic as 24 man which can really get almost Unreal Tournament-esque with the dying all the time, but still hectic enough to be lots of fun 

[TacticalCheese]

These 16 man servers are great! more action and explosions and bullets!

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

While I wasn't in favor of them when they were doing 16/24 mech rooms, I've had quite of few really great games this week in the 16 mech servers. Maybe the game population has grown since the 16/24 period where there are more game options and people can choose a larger room versus having to play there as that is all that's available. The games haven't felt like excessively lubed oregies of chaotic destruction this go around for some reason. Lag can get a little dicey when there are hot spots of action in these rooms, that's true.

[1uster]

Another thing to add:

When the server won't fill up, so its something around 3vs3 or 4vs4, these matches take way too long. We just had now 3 matches in a row on such a server and felt like 2 hours playing. It gets tiresome. Couldn't be there a mechanism which levels down the threshold of finish when the server isn't full at the beginning. Even when during match the server fills up it's better to end it quick for a new fresh rebalanced match...

[JackVandal]

Snip

My thoughts are similar on some of this, i think turrets are tricky to balance in that if a full team carries them they have a lot of hitting power, but alone they are almost useless. Scanners, a long match on origin with the tunnels is a good summary. But i feel these are slightly related in that i notice the balance issues are more evident on larger servers.

[DieselCat]

I like the 16m server rooms, also like the 14m servers.

 

Though someone made the point that with the current low player base these bigger servers might cause the regular 12m servers to suffer a bit by not being able to fill up. That I can see as a problem currently.

 

Whether or not the dev's decide to keep running these larger server rooms, I'd like to see better and larger maps to accommodate these sometime in the future just because I think they are fun.

 

*+ 

[Moeaswordusrex]

This may not be a popular opinion, but to be honest I would rather have servers limiting the amount of players to around 8 or 10. I find 6v6 feels like to much on some maps. But, my opinion should probably not be taken seriously, becuase I am not very good at hawken. I don't know if this has all ready been said, I haven't bothered to read the above comments.

Edited by Moeaswordusrex, 20 August 2015 - 03:46 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

My experience with the 16 (and 24) player servers has been very positive.  I am not experiencing all the lag that some are complaining about... and I honestly really enjoy the greater need for situational awareness.  In the 12 player matches, it becomes very easy to keep track of all the enemy positions and good players seem to have an intuition for knowing exactly where to zip off to next to snag the next victim just because they understand the spawning and movement patterns.  The 16 and 24 player matches create a ton more opportunities for teams to create a strategy that involves splitting up to divide and conquer - also for players to sneak around the long way and flank.

 

I also enjoy the added excitement/action/chaos with so many players.

 

Another benefit is that the larger Siege matches don't take as long to finish, so I can play those when I don't have a lot of time. :)

 

I hope they continue to have servers of all sizes available.  8 player - 24.

[hellc9943]

Just some theory:

 

Anxiko said:

 

"put 2 and 2 together: if they can fit more players on the same server, they will need less servers for the same population, cutting down server cost by a good amount

Somehow I have the feeling that some idiot fuzzy bunnyed up making the server code, which is why they are working so bad and why they are trying so desesperatly on making them cheaper

perhaps even all this team they hired is just there to "fix" the servers, once they're done they'll get fired and Hawken will enter the auto pilot mode again"

Edited by hellc9943, 20 August 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[DM30]

I wish I was getting into the 16-man games that are strategic and dynamic that people in here have talked about, because pretty much every time I play in these servers it's the opposite. Played four games on one last night with some Axe Attack teammates to warm up before our game and from my perspective at least, three out of four of them were basically just two big lines on the map poking at each other, with one line occasionally boxing the other into a corner and wiping them. The exception was Uptown, which surprisingly played pretty much like a standard 6v6 game (probably because the choke points slow things down enough already in standard sized servers). The biggest strategy I saw in those games was SS-stacking on Bazaar where both teams had three of them by the end of the match.

 

I just don't think the current health pools are big enough for the amount of damage flying around in these larger servers. If the TTK wasn't so short already in standard-sized games it might work better, but for the most part my experiences in the 16-man servers have just been frustrating.

Edited by DM30, 21 August 2015 - 06:53 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

^You've got a solid point about the short Time To Kill.

It doesn't always happen to me, but there are many times when the spawning on a map gets all messed up because of a team getting scattered and I keep spawning alone... with the enemy team between me and my team.  There is no way to survive long enough to get back with the team.

[1uster]

UPDATE!

Can you please shut this fuzzy bunnyng 16 man server down?! You want data - I give you data: Your playerbase gets angry. Beside mostly unbalanced matches we have now unbalanced matches which take fuzzy bunnyng forever! Great work. Fix the fuzzy bunnyng matchmaker and then we can talk about such silly experiments. It's tiresome. You kill EU with it. Clap, clap!

[Hecatoncheires]

I can hardly agree with any statement you made there. 16 players TDM is just a huge mess with no space for any tactical play. A-classes are almost useless due to the large number of enemies they constantly get attacked by, there is almost no room to repair, since when you walk away from your team there are instantly enemies chasing and killing you. So the best "strategy" to use in these big servers is deathballing with a bunch of orblording c-classes, maybe even with a Technician healing them. If any of both teams follows this "strategy" they win 60-10, that's my experience. It requires no thinking at all to play in these servers, as they encourage orblording and ramboing. Bazaar might be the only map that has got enough space for 16 players, the rest of the maps don't.

 

I don't want to have to play in these servers again and 24 players servers would cause an unimaginable mess, trust me, nobody here wants the 24 players servers back, except we get new humongous maps.

 

I don't know...my opinion on these servers is practically opposite yours. What you're describing is a battle of attrition, which isn't really an appropriate strategy, since it relies on greater numbers. With the whole balancing thing, it's kind of pointless. And, C-class mechs are viably the worst class mech to approach this variation tactically (with the exception of incinerators). When you're facing equally large numbers, you don't want low mobility in place of high defense and sustainability, what you want is a strong vanguard (and not that particular mech) with high mobility. You need momentum. You have to be able to quickly group up, charge forward collectively, and disperse the enemy and having just c-class mechs results in delays and individuals being isolated and/or abandoned. Not to mention a large profile makes for an easier target; especially when in turret mode, which is practically useless when facing such numbers. A mix of both A and B class mechs with maybe 1 or 2 incincerators is probably the best mixture, since incinerators are designed for suppressing large numbers and have great AoE capabilities.Course, if you're skilled with another heavy, that could become a viable choice as well, depending on how you use them. I personally think one of the best mechs for this game mode is the berserker since it adds another dimension of difficulty to enemies with its aerial prowess, especially when they're surrounded. Also, when you need to repair, the best strategy is to quickly repair around your allies (hopefully they'll watch your back) or under cover, which is also another reason why A and B class mechs are superior in these situations with their relatively short repair time.

[StubbornPuppet]

^I think both of the above posts illustrate why, I think, we need all the server sizes.  The strategy and tactics used for fighting a team of 6 players are different than fighting 8 players, which is different than fighting 12 players.  Some people will hate all but one size, while others will really enjoy the variety and freshness of having to be flexible.

 

I feel like an identical set of complaints and compliments would come if they announced some 4 vs. 4 servers.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 21 August 2015 - 12:13 PM.

[Meraple]

When you're facing equally large numbers, you don't want low mobility in place of high defense and sustainability

..High defense and sustainability is exactly what you need if you know what you're doing.

The exception to this is turret mode which is generally pretty weak.

 

You have to be able to quickly group up, charge forward collectively, and disperse the enemy and having just c-class mechs results in delays and individuals being isolated and/or abandoned.

Charging forwards with only A-B's against an enemy B-C team will get you killed plainly due to HP differences.

Heck, trying to fight a B-C team as an A-B team will get you slaughtered as well.

C-class mechs don't result in individuals being isolated or abandoned, that's the fault of the players themselves.

 

Not to mention a large profile makes for an easier target; especially when in turret mode, which is practically useless when facing such numbers.

If the player's aim is decent enough it doesn't matter whether it's an A-class or C-class hitbox, as he'll hit you either way.

Turret mode is generally pretty weak.

 

A mix of both A and B class mechs with maybe 1 or 2 incincerators is probably the best mixture, since incinerators are designed for suppressing large numbers and have great AoE capabilities.

C-classes are the best in TDMs, with A-classes at the lower end of the food chain.

This honestly isn't an argueable point.

 

Also, when you need to repair, the best strategy is to quickly repair around your allies (hopefully they'll watch your back) or under cover, which is also another reason why A and B class mechs are superior in these situations with their relatively short repair time.

C-classes are generally superior.

 

 

TL;DR: C>B>A in TDMs.

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 21 August 2015 - 12:14 PM.

[1uster]

Sorry but you misunderstood my post Puppet. It's about the length! Image playing Bunker, for 2 hours non stop. I am exaggerating, maybe now you get the idea.

 

And of course, yeah. Some people will never like it. (Beside maps not designed for that many players.) But now, you won't have a choice because it's the only server available...

Edited by 1uster, 21 August 2015 - 12:17 PM.

[spinningchurro]

So far I really like the 16-player servers.  Great balance between mayhem and 6v6.  Gives a little more intensity to each match, which I heartily welcome.  I'm having more fun on them, plain and simple.

[Draigun]

I'd rather see 14 man instead of 16 man. Nevertheless, they partially absorb the faults of a low player base, which directly causes matches to be left on regular twelve man. Four pilots leaving a 12 man is more detrimental than the same scenario with the 16 man servers.

 

However, a full 16 man server seems to show a 20 to 30 percent decrease in performance in regards to the frame rate, from what I've tested. Probably due to the increase in roster, and the subsequent gpu draw calls needed to render more mechs.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

I had another couple great 16 man games last night. Initially I was only going to play a quick round and hit the rack but there was too much into be had.