245 replies to this topic

[SS396]

Oh for.. I did not miss you being banned :/

 

Me too.

 

(There Sriracha_Sauce, I hope you are happy).

Edited by SS396, 01 January 2017 - 11:54 AM.

[Sriracha_Sauce]

Me either.

I don't mean to be a nag but isn't the phrase "me neither"

Just bothers me that's all

[DieselCat]

I feel cosmetics should be made available to all, except for items that were made as an exclusive where people paid a much higher price for them. The Vanguard Cupcake Initiative was a very special item,  that was stated from the beginning it was introduced and would offered for a very limited time only for a steep price of $75.00 for a special mech skin and unique loadout.

 

 ADH did address this by releasing the Vanguard to all, but not in the Cupcake skin, to try and appease those complaining about.  Because I enjoy playing the Vanguard a lot (and let's face it, it's not one of the most popular played) and it being a very special mech skin,  seeing it re-released again would make me very 

 

I think a way to help solve this would be for RLD to (when they get around to being capable of doing it) is to design another mech that could be introduced as an exclusive just like the Cupcake was for a limited time only. Not only would that be a nice gesture, but an opportunity to make some $$$.

 

 

 

But caution should be taken with these types of things because it can cause uncomfortable ripples in a community when items are walled off after a certain amount time. Cosmetics in a FTP game are a big portion of their life blood and thus need to be offered to everyone careful not to piss players off when they aren't.

Edited by DieselCat, 01 January 2017 - 12:10 PM.

[SS396]

I feel cosmetics should be made available to all, except for items that were made as an exclusive where people paid a much higher price for them. The Vanguard Cupcake Initiative was a very special item,  that was stated from the beginning it was introduced and would offered for a very limited time only for a steep price of $75.00 for a special mech skin and unique loadout.

 

Well, it wasn't sold for 75 dollars (US).  There were 4 tiers  $5, $15, $30, and $60.

 

Spoiler

[Sriracha_Sauce]

Vanguard should stay exclusive, bottom line. It was alpha exclusive iirc but I think everything else is fair game, holidays happen again, but the alpha exclusivity only happens once

[DieselCat]

Well, it wasn't sold for 75 dollars (US).  There were 4 tiers  $5, $15, $30, and $60.

 

Spoiler

 

 

OK....  Listed for $75...sold for $60

[SS396]

Vanguard should stay exclusive, bottom line. It was alpha exclusive iirc but I think everything else is fair game, holidays happen again, but the alpha exclusivity only happens once

 

Limited time only is still exclusive is it not?  I believe the definition of what you are talking about is termed "seasonal".

 

The VI stuff wasn't alpha exclusive because it was announced between Closed Beta 2 and Closed Beta 3, and the alpha was long over.  Those that purchased it if they weren't already in a previous beta or the alpha, got instant access to CB3.

 

It is my personal opinion that gaming companies shouldn't recycle the same old art assets for one holiday to the same one next year.  It just seems extremely lazy and cheap.  I played another free to play game that recycled all the holiday events over the last two years and its extremely disappointing, especially for the players that already owned the skins the first time around.  Why is it acceptable for gaming companies to recycle the same digital goods year after year?  Especially when skins are so easily created?

 

The main issue I have with the Chinese New Year Dragon skin is its not even relevant to the 2017 Chinese New Year, it'd be the equivalent of you running around screaming "Happy New Year 2012" today, people would either think you are stupid, crazy or both.  Like I said before if Reloaded wants to pull a money grab and make a few bucks then just turn the fuzzy bunnyng thing on in the store so all the crybabies will shutup and throw their money at them, but don't make a big brouhaha about it trying to make it relevant to the 2017 Chinese New Year, because it isn't, and thats the bottom line.

[hestoned]

Sure there is, Honor and Respect.  It is Reloadeds responsibility to honor and respect all things Hawken, and that includes the terms and conditions of exclusive items sold in the past.  It is as simple as that.

 

I didn't make them exclusive, I have no vested interest in them whatsoever, so don't try to cop up a bunch of fuzzy bunny about my feelings getting hurt.  ADH is the ones that made them exclusive limited time only releases, and that is what makes those skins so extra special above and beyond them just looking cool, and for anyone to rerelease them completely shits on the exclusivity of them.  Does it not?  That is the ROOT of the issue here.

 

Just because you personally wouldn't have a problem reneging on an exclusive release, doesn't mean that its not fundamentally and morally wrong.  I see it for what it is, a money grab that costs Reloaded absolutely nothing but flicking a switch in the in game store, and nets them nothing but 100% profit off of some loyal eager fans that missed out years ago when they didn't even play the game.  Those players, if they are even around now, that already have the skin lose out on it being exclusive and get to see everyone running around in the same outfit in a match, and have no need to repurchase it.  So you tell me which players it benefits the most, the ones that don't have it yet or the ones that do?  Either way Reloaded is the one laughing all the way to the bank because they didn't invest any costs in producing this content, only the cost of CZeroFive taking 5 minutes to go into the store and flick the switch.

 

what terms and conditions? no one signed an agreement between themselves and reloaded about certain skins being one time only and forever staying that way. and the honor and respect tripe is nothing but mu feewings. also it was obvious i wasnt singling you out about hurt feelings. reading comprehension helps.

 

also who does it help? is that a trick question? people who didnt have skins before can now buy them so that benefits them. this whole post is just people will have hurt feelings

[Sriracha_Sauce]

I'm a player of Asian descent, I wouldn't mind if the dragon skin was re released

From what I've seen in pictures it's pretty rad and would love to have the chance to buy it

You're reading way too much into the Chinese new year skin thing ss396 it's not that big a deal

Given RLD's competence or incompetence with new skin making as seen on console makes me prefer having old skins over a new artsy skin, they are just plain better done than the famed shark skin

[Acguy]

Sure there is, Honor and Respect.  It is Reloadeds responsibility to honor and respect all things Hawken, and that includes the terms and conditions of exclusive items sold in the past.  It is as simple as that.

 

I didn't make them exclusive, I have no vested interest in them whatsoever, so don't try to cop up a bunch of fuzzy bunny about my feelings getting hurt.  ADH is the ones that made them exclusive limited time only releases, and that is what makes those skins so extra special above and beyond them just looking cool, and for anyone to rerelease them completely shits on the exclusivity of them.  Does it not?  That is the ROOT of the issue here.

 

Just because you personally wouldn't have a problem reneging on an exclusive release, doesn't mean that its not fundamentally and morally wrong.  I see it for what it is, a money grab that costs Reloaded absolutely nothing but flicking a switch in the in game store, and nets them nothing but 100% profit off of some loyal eager fans that missed out years ago when they didn't even play the game.  Those players, if they are even around now, that already have the skin lose out on it being exclusive and get to see everyone running around in the same outfit in a match, and have no need to repurchase it.  So you tell me which players it benefits the most, the ones that don't have it yet or the ones that do?  Either way Reloaded is the one laughing all the way to the bank because they didn't invest any costs in producing this content, only the cost of CZeroFive taking 5 minutes to go into the store and flick the switch.

 

First and foremost, the fact that it's easy doesn't mean it's wrong, I don't know why you're bringing up the ease as though it were a negative. If I save 10 helpless children from certain doom by "flicking a switch" that's ultimately no more or less noble than saving them by doing a single-handed handstand for a solid five minutes. The latter might be more impressive, but you'd be hard pressed to call it more moral simply because it's more difficult. Hard work itself has no innate value unless you're a masochist or something of the like, and it doesn't necessarily pay off as an investment either. You might find that bothersome, you might find that reassuring, but it is what it is.

 

Secondly, if the people who did get the skin originally perceived value in it, and you personally don't own it, why not try letting someone who actually owns the skin speak up? If they don't care, then you have no motive to be the "defender of the people" you take yourself to be, simple as that. Unless you just like arguing and labor.

 

And I'd also like to add that, in the broader scope of things, there's really nothing inherently special about being a special snowflake. You might be useful if you've got a glowing red nose or a rare object that can be exchanged for other goods, but this is something purely cosmetic and utility-free we're talking here. If the people who bought that skin thought it was better than the rest simply because it was exclusive, then they were deceived by themselves and nobody else. Better to do them a favor and rip that bandaid off as far as I'm concerned.

[SS396]

what terms and conditions? no one signed an agreement between themselves and reloaded about certain skins being one time only and forever staying that way. and the honor and respect tripe is nothing but mu feewings. also it was obvious i wasnt singling you out about hurt feelings. reading comprehension helps.

 

also who does it help? is that a trick question? people who didnt have skins before can now buy them so that benefits them. this whole post is just people will have hurt feelings

 

Haha, you are right nobody signed an agreement with ADH that they would only be one time only releases, but in the advertisement for the event it was clearly listed as a limited time only event.  That is a term and condition, Sherlock.

 

Why is it that ADH themselves didn't recycle the original art assets you want so bad when they had the chance?  Hrmm???  Maybe it wasn't their intention to recycle art assets.

 

And as far as reading comprehension helps goes, I'd help a bunch if your posts were written better, they look like they are poorly written by a 3rd grader.  Perhaps you should try harder and quit being extremely lazy.

 

And who does it hurt, the players that already own the skin, and now its no longer rare.  What about them?  I guess why not just turn on all the exclusive rare skins and sell them off at ridiculous prices right?

 

Your whole post is whiney crybaby antics that feel left out because you missed out on a 1 time event in the past, and you want to be a part of the group and look cool too.  Too bad so sad, life isn't fair.

 

You're reading way too much into the Chinese new year skin thing ss396 it's not that big a deal

Given RLD's competence or incompetence with new skin making as seen on console makes me prefer having old skins over a new artsy skin, they are just plain better done than the famed shark skin

 

Maybe so, but I'm up for it.

 

Well, I'm sure theres a few other skins that ADH created that are still unknown to the general community, I remember a Russian website that showed a few that they had extracted.  But RLD is quickly running out of ADH created content, I do wonder myself if they have the ability to maintain the look at feel that is Hawken.  I sure hope that lone art guy is pumping out the art assets so that they have enough of a backlog that they can release more than just one mech every few months.

 

 

First and foremost, the fact that it's easy doesn't mean it's wrong, I don't know why you're bringing up the ease as though it were a negative. If I save 10 helpless children from certain doom by "flicking a switch" that's ultimately no more or less noble than saving them by doing a single-handed handstand for a solid five minutes. The latter might be more impressive, but you'd be hard pressed to call it more moral simply because it's more difficult. Hard work itself has no innate value unless you're a masochist or something of the like, and it doesn't necessarily pay off as an investment either. You might find that bothersome, you might find that reassuring, but it is what it is.

 

Secondly, if the people who did get the skin originally perceived value in it, and you personally don't own it, why not try letting someone who actually owns the skin speak up? If they don't care, then you have no motive to be the "defender of the people" you take yourself to be, simple as that. Unless you just like arguing and labor.

 

And I'd also like to add that, in the broader scope of things, there's really nothing inherently special about being a special snowflake. You might be useful if you've got a glowing red nose or a rare object that can be exchanged for other goods, but this is something purely cosmetic and utility-free we're talking here. If the people who bought that skin thought it was better than the rest simply because it was exclusive, then they were deceived by themselves and nobody else. Better to do them a favor and rip that bandaid off as far as I'm concerned.

 

I feel that if Reloaded wants to make more money off of loyal PC players again they should invest some actual work and effort, they have already had enough freeloading in my opinion (Hon, 2 other skins, etc), not just copy and paste the content that ADH spent their development on.  Like I said its lazy and cheap, and already been done at least 3 times in the recent past.

 

Secondly, I realize you are new here and all, but incase you haven't noticed, the overwhelming majority of veteran players that this would effect no longer associate with this game or forum.  But even so, I'm not sure they'd be willing to be so outspoken and get involved about something so controversial.  I do welcome their input though, just the same as I welcome those who disagree with my view.  But just because they don't say anything does not mean that they are not thinking exactly what I'm thinking, it also doesn't mean they don't.  It just means that they are no longer here or they'd rather not get involved, which to some is the the smart thing to do.

 

So in the future, quit with the unneeded fluff in your posts and get to the point.

[Amidatelion]

I, and I think a great many other vets, could go either way on the skins and Vanguard stuff at this point, largely due to fatigue. But I think the greatest reason to not put them up for sale is reputation. Many vets still playing or at least playing the forum game could be OK with the VI stuff going up for general sale but the potential for a fuzzstorm outweighs the monetary benefit.  

 

Look, neither Hawken nor Reloaded have particularly good reputations outside this community, and prior to CZeroFive's stewardship Reloaded did not have even an acceptable reputation here. Any amount of Googling turns up videos and disastrous forum posts, leading to Reloaded's current reputation. People with no investment in Hawken currently are going to look at that and go "not touching this" and people who have suffered through Hawken's rocky development aren't going to believe CZeroFive's assurances that the devs are committed and trying their hardest. 

 

Any amount of money that you would make off the sale would be dwarfed by the negative press. Reloaded has historically been absolutely goddamn terrible at PR and advertising. The cat-faced dev has said that they are aware of the need to build Hawken's numbers again, so I would caution against action that would have deep, long-lasting population and confidence consequences for the sake of a quarterly bottom line.

[wischatesjesus]

ADH sold a limited time offer. ADH does not exist anymore.

 

RLD releasing Vanguard skins risks pissing off, like, 30-40 people tops.

 

Regardless of if it is RLD's obligation to not release formerly exclusive thing, or if it is the "right thing to do", I think the above is important to remember.

 

A belated duplicate Vanguard release for consoles only seems not all that bad, since the platforms are distinct.

[Amidatelion]

ADH sold a limited time offer. ADH does not exist anymore.

RLD releasing Vanguard skins risks pissing off, like, 30-40 people tops.

Regardless of if it is RLD's obligation to not release formerly exclusive thing, or if it is the "right thing to do", I think the above is important to remember.

A belated duplicate Vanguard release for consoles only seems not all that bad, since the platforms are distinct.

Again, it's not the people directly offended, its the compounding issue of further trashing the reputation of the game and company. Right now Merl's video is the first thing that pops up when you look for Hawken videos. Imagine if that became a rant about the decline of Hawken and the evils of Reloaded were he to get " pissed off."

I guaranfuzzingtee you people will raise fuzzy bunny and slander over this, which is sodding pointless when there is literally SO MUCH unreleased content IN THE GAME ALREADY. It is picking a fight with no purpose and a tiny payoff.

[CZeroFive]

Again, it's not the people directly offended, its the compounding issue of further trashing the reputation of the game and company. Right now Merl's video is the first thing that pops up when you look for Hawken videos. Imagine if that became a rant about the decline of Hawken and the evils of Reloaded were he to get " pissed off."

I guaranfuzzingtee you people will raise fuzzy bunny and slander over this, which is sodding pointless when there is literally SO MUCH unreleased content IN THE GAME ALREADY. It is picking a fight with no purpose and a tiny payoff.

 

To be fair, the unreleased content isn't in a releasable state. It would require a client patch to release some of that new content, something we're not able to do on the PC until the code freeze is over.

 

In terms of items in a releasable state, there's the NVidia chassis skin (probably not going to happen due to licensing) and that's about it. There is nothing more on PC that is unreleased and hooked up to a releasable state. The Mechs that are in the client files but unreleased do not have associated UnrealScript with them, making them not able to be released. Not to mention the other weapons and such that have placeholder stats and strings in them that you all have datamined in the past. It would be a disservice and insult to our PC community to release those without 1) balancing them and 2) making sure they work.

 

I don't know if we'll proceed with the chinese new years re-release anyways; I will check in with the team tomorrow and see if that's still a thing. I thought it would be something nice to at least mention to get some feedback.

 

It wouldn't be re-released to increase profits, just to dispell that notion; the revenue, as I mentioned before, from PC are the same regardless of if we have a sale or not. For example, the Black Friday weapon sale on PC made no tangible difference to revenue; that was simply for the remaining PC players to enjoy because we care about them and want them to know they're still cared about.

Edited by CZeroFive, 02 January 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[SS396]

 

A belated duplicate Vanguard release for consoles only seems not all that bad, since the platforms are distinct.

 

Not so fast.  The two are distinct for now, but CZeroFive has indicated that both systems are to be brought to parity.

 

 

Right now Merl's video is the first thing that pops up when you look for Hawken videos. Imagine if that became a rant about the decline of Hawken and the evils of Reloaded were he to get " pissed off."

 

When I search for Hawken from within Youtube, the first video that is recommended for me is no longer Merls, much more recent, and double the views of his. 

 

Spoiler

 

I haven't bothered to watch it either.

 

The Mechs that are in the client files but unreleased do not have associated UnrealScript with them, making them not able to be released. 

 

If the mech parts that are currently in the game do not have the associated UnrealScript with them, how was Eyes_Only able to enable them for his account and use them in game years ago?   The videos I've seen of him playing using them seemed to work just fine.  To me it would be no different than turning them on in the store just like you did for Hon, granted it makes things slightly disjoint because on the console you decided to make those models associated with new mech roles, but really its not that different than what we have now where you can equip a default raider chassis on an assault etc.  Can you elaborate on why those mech parts need UnrealScript to be used?

 

I've seen at least 10 to 15 skins extracted from old builds that I've never seen ingame before, 2 of them Josh made available once.  I find it hard to believe that only the Nvidia skin is the only other one that is releasable.  Why are the remaining ones unreleasable?

[CZeroFive]

 

If the mech parts that are currently in the game do not have the associated UnrealScript with them, how was Eyes_Only able to enable them for his account and use them in game years ago?   The videos I've seen of him playing using them seemed to work just fine.  To me it would be no different than turning them on in the store just like you did for Hon, granted it makes things slightly disjoint because on the console you decided to make those models associated with new mech roles, but really its not that different than what we have now where you can equip a default raider chassis on an assault etc.  Can you elaborate on why those mech parts need UnrealScript to be used?

 

I've seen at least 10 to 15 skins extracted from old builds that I've never seen ingame before, 2 of them Josh made available once.  I find it hard to believe that only the Nvidia skin is the only other one that is releasable.  Why are the remaining ones unreleasable?

 

They do not have index IDs associated with any of them. That's the reason why. We can't push out a patch right now, and it's pointless and a waste of resources to spend time on it when in a code freeze.

 

You can make them available locally - but that doesn't make them available for everyone, or make them balanced for everyone clientsided. It requires a client build. Not to mention the implications of things differing on PC compared to console, database IDs mismatching, etc, when we do merge console into PC.

 

Just because a player can reverse engineer the game and enable things doesn't mean they should be enabled.

 

 

Not so fast.  The two are distinct for now, but CZeroFive has indicated that both systems are to be brought to parity.

 

 

The chinese new year skins have been enabled on consoles since the launch of consoles. The vanguard initiative skin has not been enabled, and I don't think we have any plans for that.

Edited by CZeroFive, 02 January 2017 - 03:39 PM.

[Acguy]

I feel that if Reloaded wants to make more money off of loyal PC players again they should invest some actual work and effort, they have already had enough freeloading in my opinion (Hon, 2 other skins, etc), not just copy and paste the content that ADH spent their development on.  Like I said its lazy and cheap, and already been done at least 3 times in the recent past.

 

Secondly, I realize you are new here and all, but incase you haven't noticed, the overwhelming majority of veteran players that this would effect no longer associate with this game or forum.  But even so, I'm not sure they'd be willing to be so outspoken and get involved about something so controversial.  I do welcome their input though, just the same as I welcome those who disagree with my view.  But just because they don't say anything does not mean that they are not thinking exactly what I'm thinking, it also doesn't mean they don't.  It just means that they are no longer here or they'd rather not get involved, which to some is the the smart thing to do.

 

You haven't actually presented an argument, you just stated your claims again. The fact that you have to start off with "I feel..." shows well enough that you don't have any objective grounding for anything you're saying. Yeah, it's lazy. We know. However there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, as I'd already demonstrated via an actual argument. Repeatedly pointing out that it's "lazy" doesn't make the fact that it's "lazy" a bad thing. It would probably be bad if the devs did exclusively lazy things, but it isn't as though "flicking a switch" prevents them from producing new content alongside re-releases. There's no reason to continue pretending that the fact that it's "easy" is a bad thing, I've already made the point that there are plenty of easy things with good consequences.

 

Obviously I realized that this wouldn't affect most players. Had you actually read my post instead of skimming it like the other handful of negative replies you got, you would have realized that was my actual point. There are no skin owners claiming they would be offended by this. The only reason someone as new as me even knows what this skin looks like is because I've seen bots wear it. There are that few people who own it even playing the game right now, and those who do play don't seem to even use the skin much itself. There is nearly noone here to be directly "harmed" by this.

 

So in the future, quit with the unneeded fluff in your posts and get to the point.

 

In the future, read more and post less. You don't really contribute to discussion.

 

I think the greatest reason to not put them up for sale is reputation. Many vets still playing or at least playing the forum game could be OK with the VI stuff going up for general sale but the potential for a fuzzstorm outweighs the monetary benefit.  

 

You're right to say that small profit would not be worth negative press, and also right to fear the possibility of it getting blown out of proportion by some news outlet. Anyone can overreact to anything though. Look, if you were trying to write a scathing review of hawken, is a skin re-release really the first thing you'd want to complain about as far as being stingy or ripping people off goes? This is a game where even crosshairs are expected to be purchased (be it with in-game or real money). If I'm correct, it takes about four games to get enough currency to try out a new crosshair, it's just silly. That's like having people pay for rebinding their keys. There are plenty of other things people would be more likely to jump on to boot.

 

I'd be more persuaded by what you're getting at if you could show me a review or something where someone complains about issues of this nature this game has had, but from what I've seen all the complaints seem to be centered around grinding (more of a console issue), balance (known issue), and connectivity (known issue). As much as I like the actual game and gameplay, ultimately what most people are complaining about is the actual game and gameplay and not the little sidepoints associated with it. I've seen C05 themself say that new players are coming in at a normal rate and are simply not staying. That means people are likely taking issue with the actual game more than anything; this isn't a diamond game that's just held back by bad PR and financing. 

 

I do genuinely believe you've got worthwhile examples of bad PR to refer to, but to play up hawken's issue as though it were a matter of PR is almost a PR issue in and of itself. Like, imagine going to a pizza parlor and getting served some moldy food, only to have the waiter say "sorry, were you not served this kindly enough? Is there something I should be doing to better represent this company, [which totally makes perfectly fine food]?" instead of acknowledging the fault in the product itself, as pointed out by the customer. I guess you could call it a "vain effort".

Edited by Acguy, 02 January 2017 - 05:08 PM.

[SS396]

They do not have index IDs associated with any of them. That's the reason why. We can't push out a patch right now, and it's pointless and a waste of resources to spend time on it when in a code freeze.

 

You can make them available locally - but that doesn't make them available for everyone, or make them balanced for everyone clientsided. It requires a client build. Not to mention the implications of things differing on PC compared to console, database IDs mismatching, etc, when we do merge console into PC.

 

Just because a player can reverse engineer the game and enable things doesn't mean they should be enabled.

 

I fully realize the great Hawken code freeze of 2016-2017.

 

So, the unknown skins don't have index ID's right?  I guess I can accept that, but what about all the other mech parts, do they not have index ID's?  I assume they do because one player was able to adjust his account to point to them.

 

From what I've seen, they are not just locally rendered though, they are displayed exactly like the other custom chassis parts on other players in any game.  As far as I know there should be no balance effected or associated with changing mech parts.  I'm not sure where balance comes into this or what you are trying to explain.  

 

Can you elaborate on the implications of enabling the hidden chassis parts?  Like why was it able to be done for Hon, but not the other 6 chassis already in the current build?  When I render out the remaining meshes, they seem to have all the textures and animations in place, what more do they need besides an index ID?

 

And yes I get that some things should not be enabled, but what I don't know is the exact reason why, especially when viewing video of matches where it seems to work perfectly fine.

 

 

And thanks for your time CZeroFive.

[SS396]

The chinese new year skins have been enabled on consoles since the launch of consoles. The vanguard initiative skin has not been enabled, and I don't think we have any plans for that.

 

Not sure why you ninja'd that comment in, but which system is pairing to which?  If PC is pairing to console, then it looks as if PC would be getting the same skin availability as console making them available whenever the great Hawken code thaw happens.

 

What about the 3 skins that came with the original VI flyer I posted?  Should be 4 in total.

[CZeroFive]

I fully realize the great Hawken code freeze of 2016-2017.

 

So, the unknown skins don't have index ID's right?  I guess I can accept that, but what about all the other mech parts, do they not have index ID's?  I assume they do because one player was able to adjust his account to point to them.

 

From what I've seen, they are not just locally rendered though, they are displayed exactly like the other custom chassis parts on other players in any game.  As far as I know there should be no balance effected or associated with changing mech parts.  I'm not sure where balance comes into this or what you are trying to explain.  

 

Can you elaborate on the implications of enabling the hidden chassis parts?  Like why was it able to be done for Hon, but not the other 6 chassis already in the current build?  When I render out the remaining meshes, they seem to have all the textures and animations in place, what more do they need besides an index ID?

 

And yes I get that some things should not be enabled, but what I don't know is the exact reason why, especially when viewing video of matches where it seems to work perfectly fine.

 

 

And thanks for your time CZeroFive.

 

Just because you enable it locally on the client doesn't mean the server has knowledge about you owning that part. In training games like offline bots TDM, you *are* the server and are the single authority for what you can do. So if you modify stuff locally, it will work because there's no checking locally in those game modes. This is why some players get 'test drive failed' on those broken database Mechs; the server and client disagree on what they own. If someone bypassed restrictions to get something like that working, then that's another issue entirely. Either way, the legitimate way of setting it up would be what we are concerned about so everything is tracked properly.

 

The chassis designs and skins that are locked are simply a design and code decision; we don't want to introduce more content into the database just yet. The server has to load the items that you have from the database, and if an ID doesn't exist in one platform but does in another, that's a problem - especially if two of the same items exist in the database (IE; one for PC, one for Console).

 

The other problem is even if the entry pre-exists, it may not be okay to enable. If we decide to do something with the content in the future on consoles, then that means we have to figure out what to do about the PC version of the item when it comes to PC. Just purely speaking from a design perspective, of course, it doesn't make much sense to touch PC in a code freeze. Especially if it breaks something.

 

To give some insight, this is what makes up a database entry for a piece of content:

Item Index - This hardcoded value determines what type of UnrealScript should be used in the client for the entry. It's a rather large lookup table, based on Item Type, and associates with a value.
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Item Type - This determines the class of the item. Mechs, Internals, Items, even EXP Boosts have their own category under this field. This is used by both the game client and the backend.
/\
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Unique Global Identifier for a game item. This is unique per item, and cannot be duplicated or changed for the entire items' lifespan.
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Global Unique Identifier for an 'Offer'  (used for displaying it in the game for purchase)

When we designed Hawken for consoles, we kept the Index values the same, and only added on new ones.

The item types remained the same as well. This is so we could merge the content into the PC game as soon as we were ready to release a stable PC game.

 

I know what you're thinking - why not just add new entries with the same Item Guid and Item Index across all platforms? Well, we could do that, if the indexes were hooked up. Which they may be for some skins, don't get me wrong - it's just not worth development time right now to investigate that... especially when players could just be patient for the PC relaunch. Also, the returns financially on the skins being unlocked would be negligible at most financially, and we may have plans for the content for use in other ways at some point in the future, so it's really, really not viable to consider that right now, despite it being a really simple change for some skins.

 

There's so many variables that it's better to just let players be patient overall.

 

 

 

Not sure why you ninja'd that comment in, but which system is pairing to which?  If PC is pairing to console, then it looks as if PC would be getting the same skin availability as console making them available whenever the great Hawken code thaw happens.

 

What about the 3 skins that came with the original VI flyer I posted?  Should be 4 in total.

 

PC is simply gaining console's codebase. We can enable/disable skins per-platform if needed on the backend by changing the offer's availability. This is how we are staggering content releases on consoles and can be used to disable or enable them on the PC side if needed.

 

I would have to check to see if the VI skins are unlocked on consoles, but it's not that big of a deal since we're not doing cross-platform play at this moment (lots of red tape).

Edited by CZeroFive, 02 January 2017 - 06:28 PM.

[hestoned]

Haha, you are right nobody signed an agreement with ADH that they would only be one time only releases, but in the advertisement for the event it was clearly listed as a limited time only event.  That is a term and condition, Sherlock.

 

Why is it that ADH themselves didn't recycle the original art assets you want so bad when they had the chance?  Hrmm???  Maybe it wasn't their intention to recycle art assets.

 

And as far as reading comprehension helps goes, I'd help a bunch if your posts were written better, they look like they are poorly written by a 3rd grader.  Perhaps you should try harder and quit being extremely lazy.

 

And who does it hurt, the players that already own the skin, and now its no longer rare.  What about them?  I guess why not just turn on all the exclusive rare skins and sell them off at ridiculous prices right?

 

Your whole post is whiney crybaby antics that feel left out because you missed out on a 1 time event in the past, and you want to be a part of the group and look cool too.  Too bad so sad, life isn't fair.

 

 

 

it doesnt matter what adh said. they arent around and its a new company now. 505 can do whatever they want. also no thats not a term and condition. its an advertisement. no one agreed to anything before hand. they offered a skin and you can choose to buy it or not. are you being dumb on purpose?

 

adh already recycled art assets. snowflake off the top off my head but other skins as well. try harder next time.

 

lol you got called out for not being able to read at a third grade level so you just throw insults. lol

 

so it hurst them cause muh feewings. lol cry more you whiny baby. zero argument what so ever.

 

lol your whole post is muh feewings. the whole point is to make money. 505 should use whatever is available to them. your ninja code of honor is cringey in this context and you should just stop.

[SS396]

Just because you enable it locally on the client doesn't mean the server has knowledge about you owning that part. In training games like offline bots TDM, you *are* the server and are the single authority for what you can do. So if you modify stuff locally, it will work because there's no checking locally in those game modes. This is why some players get 'test drive failed' on those broken database Mechs; the server and client disagree on what they own. If someone bypassed restrictions to get something like that working, then that's another issue entirely. Either way, the legitimate way of setting it up would be what we are concerned about so everything is tracked properly.

 

Well, the video I linked was an online DM or TDM on a private server, 3 players online and the one recording was in spectator mode.  So for it to be displayed from the player in question to another recording, I concluded that the server forwarded the information to all the clients correctly.  I realized this player bypassed and enabled things he shouldn't of, but I just thought that it was a simple thing to just create a new store placeholder.  Maybe it isn't, I really don't know what all is involved in creating new listings, but since its been done before with no change to our clients I just assumed it wasn't all that difficult and ADH had more stuff was closer to being enabled.

 

I appreciate the information and time spent on what you posted.

 

unlike hestoneds 3rd grade garbage.

[-Tj-]

As a VI purchaser, I want to weigh in on the whole "release VI content" argument.

 

First and foremost, I like the fact that the Vanguard Cupcake is an exclusive cosmetic. It makes me feel glad that I followed Hawken closely enough to have known about such a thing, and that, despite my penny pinching around that time, I decided to spend the money to unlock that cosmetic for my account, knowing it would not be offered again.

 

Would I be pissed if Reloaded released the VI package to the public for purchase again, knowing full well that Reloaded did not devise the package in the first place and has no real obligation (unless it's in some contract I am not aware of) to release the VI package again?

 

Yes and no.

 

Yes because I was led to believe that my contribution to help "kickstart" Hawken's future was being rewarded with something special, not even like a badge, just something that commemorated Hawken's launch that would not be offered again. In fact, I don't even use the badges that came with the package. I barely used the skins that came with it, too. Given the sheer number of names that are listed in the credits as VI supporters, those who bought into the $60 tier, I'm sure a lot of others would feel miffed as well.

 

No because it could help boost Hawken's sales a little. Yes, a little. No doubt most gamers now wouldn't bat an eye to an older game like Hawken. Those who would be interested would be those who enjoyed the recent console release, and players who stuck around. More than likely, the players who stuck around but missed the VI would be interested, and some of those who are new to the game would be, too.

 

However, the "yes" far outweighs the "no" for me for the following reason: I would be hesitant to ever buy "limited time only" or "exclusive" content for Hawken ever again if the VI package gets released again. Take that as you will, but that's how I feel about it.

 

And here's another thing: word travels among online communities. The vast majority of Hawken players being suddenly allowed to buy this previously-unbuyable content again won't care (for now). The smaller minority who have the VI package and like the fact that it's exclusive will not, and those players who do not like it may be part of those who have helped Hawken's popularity in the first place. It really does boil down to this:

 

I think the greatest reason to not put them up for sale is reputation.

 

It's true. I would lose all faith in any kind of exclusive or limited time only content purchases in Hawken if the VI content were released for purchase again. Others would as well. Even those purchasing it may feel it, even if only at the back of their head, once they find out it used to be an exclusive only for those who bought it before the game went open beta and free for the public to play.

 

It isn't even about wealth, because, as SS had pointed out, the Cupcake could have been had for a mere $15, which, for a F2P game, is like buying into a low-cost paid game.

 

And if the Cupcake did go up for sale again, and any of the vets who have the Cupcake decided they don't like that, word could travel that "exclusive" content in the game might not exactly be so exclusive, and players might actually decide they could wait to pay for such content, no matter how new (even if it's a completely brand-new chassis that was developed completely by Reloaded staff).

 

I don't think that's what Hawken needs. Hawken needs NEW content, NEW exclusives, NEW one-time-only offers. It does NOT need re-releases of old exclusive content.

 

And another thing: whenever I tell other players who ask about the Vanguard Cupcake skin that it was an exclusive paid skin from launch back in 2012, I'm sure any who stick around would be far more compelled to spend money on a new actually-exclusive skin package than if they saw that the VI Cupcake was re-released despite it having been a launch-only exclusive. I know I would. Hell, part of the reason I bought the package was because of the exclusive skin.

 

You know what I would spend money on? An exclusive A-Class mech chassis AND an exclusive B-Class mech chassis. In fact, I rarely spend any of my MC on cosmetics unless I really like something, or it's a deal I can't pass up (like when they started making cosmetics global). I would LOVE to make my Infiltrator(s) look unique, same for some of my B-Classes. I would pay money to buy both, knowing that they would never be offered again.

 

Anyway, that's my 2�.

[DeeRax]

Hawken needs NEW content, NEW exclusives, NEW one-time-only offers. It does NOT need re-releases of old exclusive content.

^Most important thing said in this thread. I couldn't care less about arguments for or against re-releasing old content.
Assuming the new content is of the same caliber (or better) as the original ADH content, of course.
(But I'm pretty skeptical that it will be, unfortunately. )

Edited by DeeRax, 03 January 2017 - 03:10 AM.

[Acguy]

Yeah. At the very least, it should be understood that old content is not a replacement for new content. 

 

At the same time, I'd rather not have more limited-time exclusives be introduced, especially not now. Even if I did think exclusives were a good thing, it's just not smart to release new limited-time exclusives when you've only got a couple hundred people per system to actually pick up those exclusives during that limited time. On the assumption that the game actually does grow in 2017, it'd be better to work for more than work for less.

[DieselCat]

^^^..agreed that waiting to see if the game becomes more successful and the player base increases before adding any more special limited offers at this time....but,  adding things of this nature (such as the VI) should be pursued in the future if and when things get better.

 

As for the VI debate (keep it locked in the vault) 

[bacon_avenger]

As a VI purchaser, I want to weigh in on the whole "release VI content" argument.
 
*snip*

As another purchaser of the VI with the chassis and skins, -TJ- has summed it up pretty well as to why it should stay the way it is.

 

It was sold as a limited time exclusive bundle of items, and it should stay that way IMO.

 
IIRC, there were complaints of a kind of Pay to Win at the time when there was no equivalent mech available to people who did not buy into the VI, so the vanguard was released with it's own chassis design and identical stats, with the cupcake renamed.
 
 

...
Secondly, if the people who did get the skin originally perceived value in it, and you personally don't own it, why not try letting someone who actually owns the skin speak up? If they don't care, then you have no motive to be the "defender of the people" you take yourself to be, simple as that. Unless you just like arguing and labor.
...

There you go, at least two people who have it have chimed in.

[DieselCat]

As another purchaser of the VI with the chassis and skins, -TJ- has summed it up pretty well as to why it should stay the way it is.

 

It was sold as a limited time exclusive bundle of items, and it should stay that way IMO.

 
IIRC, there were complaints of a kind of Pay to Win at the time when there was no equivalent mech available to people who did not buy into the VI, so the vanguard was released with it's own chassis design and identical stats, with the cupcake renamed.
 
 

There you go, at least two people who have it have chimed in.

 

Make that 3 

[SS396]

Hawken needs NEW content, NEW exclusives, NEW one-time-only offers. It does NOT need re-releases of old exclusive content.

 

Obviously, I agree completely, but I think theres something else just as important that could also be added to your great comment.  I believe it also needs constant timely releases of that NEW content (say every 2 weeks or sooner would be best or at maximum a month), to keep players engaged, interested, and happy.   I hope that when they plan on relaunching they have months of content waiting in the wings to be piecemealed at a constant steady stream.  If they don't I will be disappointed, and I am already prepared for that unfortunately.  

 

Even if I did think exclusives were a good thing, it's just not smart to release new limited-time exclusives when you've only got a couple hundred people per system to actually pick up those exclusives during that limited time. On the assumption that the game actually does grow in 2017, it'd be better to work for more than work for less.

 

If you honestly think only the current players are the only ones that are going to purchase anything, you are sadly mistaken.  All it takes is some word of mouth for old players to be made aware of the new content, and thats easily done by the thousands with one social media post these days.

 

I see no reason why old players wouldn't return to purchase exclusives IF they know about it being available AND they determine it is worthy of being purchased in the first place.  Perceived coolness >= price obviously.

[Acguy]

If you honestly think only the current players are the only ones that are going to purchase anything, you are sadly mistaken.

 

I'm actually not. If you took the time to read the post you were responding to, you could see pretty clearly that I was warning about how it would be a waste to release and terminate an exclusive before new players came to the game. If an exclusive gets released and closed before a new update is released and advertised and thus before we get more players (the expected outcome of the 2017 update), then obviously new players won't really be spending money because there won't really be any new players, and speaking more broadly, there aren't many old players here either. Even if an exclusive release brought back all of the old players, it still holds true that Old < Old + New, meaning that you should actually hold back from exclusives until you've delivered the new patch. 

 

There you go, at least two people who have it have chimed in.

 

If you're going to be vain, then fair enough. I'm not above catering to unwarranted demands if doing so works out better for me in the end; hawken requires a good reputation if it is to do well, and if people are going to throw a fit over something for no good reason, then it's worth avoiding that fit. That doesn't mean I see it as anything other than asinine and shallow.

[TheButtSatisfier]

 

Secondly, if the people who did get the skin originally perceived value in it, and you personally don't own it, why not try letting someone who actually owns the skin speak up? If they don't care, then you have no motive to be the "defender of the people" you take yourself to be, simple as that. Unless you just like arguing and labor.

 

There you go, at least two people who have it have chimed in.

 

If you're going to be vain, then fair enough. I'm not above catering to unwarranted demands if doing so works out better for me in the end; hawken requires a good reputation if it is to do well, and if people are going to throw a fit over something for no good reason, then it's worth avoiding that fit. That doesn't mean I see it as anything other than asinine and shallow.

 

Asking for relevant sources and then getting pissy when you get them is asinine and shallow.

[Acguy]

Asking for relevant sources and then getting pissy when you get them is asinine and shallow.

 

Look, I said that if enough people really were going to worry about that, then I wouldn't be above letting other people have their way, as I understand the consequences of not doing so. I haven't gone back on that by holding on to the rest of what I said. If someone perceives less value in their own happiness simply because someone else has obtained it as well, they have a problem. If you want to paint me to be rude, that's understandable, but I'm not the one claiming things should be withheld for no reason at all (save for conforming to the might of people who want things to be withheld for no reason at all).

Edited by Acguy, 05 January 2017 - 08:50 AM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

Look, I said that if enough people really were going to worry about that, then I wouldn't be above letting other people have their way, as I understand the consequences of not doing so. I haven't gone back on that by holding on to the rest of what I said. If someone perceives less value in their own happiness simply because someone else has obtained it as well, they have a problem. If you want to paint me to be rude, that's understandable, but I'm not the one claiming things should be withheld for no reason at all (save for conforming to the might of people who want things to be withheld for no reason at all).

 

 

I, and I think a great many other vets, could go either way on the skins and Vanguard stuff at this point, largely due to fatigue. But I think the greatest reason to not put them up for sale is reputation. Many vets still playing or at least playing the forum game could be OK with the VI stuff going up for general sale but the potential for a fuzzstorm outweighs the monetary benefit.  

 

[...]

 

Any amount of money that you would make off the sale would be dwarfed by the negative press. Reloaded has historically been absolutely goddamn terrible at PR and advertising. The cat-faced dev has said that they are aware of the need to build Hawken's numbers again, so I would caution against action that would have deep, long-lasting population and confidence consequences for the sake of a quarterly bottom line.

 

 

As a VI purchaser, I want to weigh in on the whole "release VI content" argument.

 

[...]

 

However, the "yes" far outweighs the "no" for me for the following reason: I would be hesitant to ever buy "limited time only" or "exclusive" content for Hawken ever again if the VI package gets released again. Take that as you will, but that's how I feel about it.

 

 

The people I quoted, and others that I didn't, aren't against re-releasing the skins "for no reason at all". They've taken the time to explain to you the basis for their position. For whatever reason you either missed those points or decided to ignore them, and when you characterize the feedback you specifically asked for as being "no reason at all" then you're showing us that you're so consumed by your own position that you have a hard time acknowledging the validity of other ones.

 

Look, I said that if enough people really were going to worry about that, then I wouldn't be above letting other people have their way

 

Oh thank heavens you aren't above letting other people have their way. Do they need to be as officious as you to earn your respect?

[Acguy]

The last thing you'd quoted was essentially a restatement of what Amid was saying. People, for whatever "reason," do have a problem with re-releases, and avoiding stigma is worth it, unfounded or not. Fear of reasonless people is a reasonable fear, I stated so (in parentheses) at the end of my last post.

 

As for the rest of the posters who are more in-line with Tj, that's still reasonless. There's no reason for exclusivity to be a selling point to any rational person, because they aren't going to see value in that. It's pointless. I've said it before and I'll say it again; if someone perceives less value in their own happiness simply because someone else has it, then they have a problem. Saying you want something to be withheld for the sake of "exclusivity" is tantamount to saying you want it withheld for the sake of "gobbelygook". It doesn't refer to anything other than the idea of itself, it's a fixed idea. Exclusivity is not something actually contained by anything except for broader categories. That's what I'm getting at when I say it isn't a reason, or anything but a phantom concept for that matter. Pointing out that people used the word "reason" in their argument is beside the point.

[JeffMagnum]

rational person

Veblen goods are an entire class of commodities whose demand is dependent on their high price and therefore exclusivity; it shouldn't even be up for debate that the rarity of something influences its perceived value. Significantly decreased price or increased access to an exclusive status symbol virtually always makes the item less desirable to those who already possess it, and there's no reason that doesn't hold true here. The real world isn't composed of rational agents that only look at practical aspects of utility and cost when making a purchasing decision and tbh you're not gonna get far in this thread making that assumption.

Anyway, I don't have it and still vote for it not to be put up for sale for some of the reasons listed previously

Edited by JeffMagnum, 05 January 2017 - 12:12 PM.

[Acguy]

The real world isn't composed of rational agents that only look at practical aspects of utility and cost when making a purchasing decision 

 

You're correct, but I've already admitted to that much. The perspective you and Amid are putting forward I agree with completely.

 

Though I would like to say that, as far as utility goes, even if it wasn't practical utility I'd understand even just sheer selfishness. If someone gaining a cosmetic caused someone else to lose it, the latter person claiming the former person should't have it would be reasonable enough for me. Same goes for if we were in a game where items had in-game economic value and could be traded. This "exclusivity" thing just strikes me as fruitless spite though, of course it's going to bother me.

[SS396]

I'm actually not. If you took the time to read the post you were responding to, you could see pretty clearly that I was warning about how it would be a waste to release and terminate an exclusive before new players came to the game. If an exclusive gets released and closed before a new update is released and advertised and thus before we get more players (the expected outcome of the 2017 update), then obviously new players won't really be spending money because there won't really be any new players, and speaking more broadly, there aren't many old players here either. Even if an exclusive release brought back all of the old players, it still holds true that Old < Old + New, meaning that you should actually hold back from exclusives until you've delivered the new patch.

 
I fully read your post, I read all of them completely, please quit using it as an excuse (this seems to be a reoccurring pattern with you).  Saying someone didn't take the time to read your post is just you being a condescending prick and insulting someones intelligence underhandedly.  If someone didn't understand it, you didn't write it clear enough for them to understand it, so try harder next time.  The onus is on you to be clear and concise, not on us to make a SWAG (Scientific WildAss Guess) on what you thought you meant and was obviously clear to you.  Perhaps ask someone else to proofread it and see if they arrive at the same conclusion you did.  You might be surprised at the results.
 

Even if I did think exclusives were a good thing, it's just not smart to release new limited-time exclusives when you've only got a couple hundred people per system to actually pick up those exclusives during that limited time. On the assumption that the game actually does grow in 2017, it'd be better to work for more than work for less.

 
Explain to me again where you mention these new arguments you magically pulled out of your ass in your most recent post that were apparently clear?  Was I (or anyone else for that matter) somehow just supposed to read your mind?  I see no mention of old players returning to purchase goods, and the new players that don't exist yet either.  I only see you mention the CURRENT PLAYERS as noted in RED.
 
Look, I realize you are a greenhorn and all and might not understand a major flaw with Hawken, but there really isn't a problem with new players not coming in fairly constantly, CaptJosh has stated multiple times in the past that there isn't, the major problem is new players don't STAY.  They leave after spending on average of 3 days playing.  I'm not also sure that new players are very willing to spend money on a game they don't find enjoyable, but that is a completely different argument altogether we can argue about another day in another thread should you create it.
 
You stated something, and showed a condition where it is false and then you reneged on it and tried to cover your ass by adding more and more to it after the fact someone exposed a fault with it.  If you are not up for the forum game, then you are in the wrong fuzzy bunnyng place son.
 
Since you brought up old players, lets discuss WHY a majority of them aren't here playing the game anymore.  One of the reasons they aren't here is BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING LEFT FOR THEM TO BUY.  Many players are just sitting idle waiting for something new to arrive, granted a skin or two isn't that great of a thing thats going to bring people back by the thousands, but it is something more than what they currently have now.  Again as I stated, I'm sure many of them would at least load up the game and buy the new items should they be made available.  

 

This whole notion that you'd be working with more players is unfounded, as I'm not sure theres an abundance of players that haven't heard of Hawken at one time or the other over the past 5+ years.  Steamspy shows 3,330,889 � 47,735 owners, and 1,967,160 � 36,753 players total, I'm not sure a re-release is going to have a major impact on the numbers I've shown.

 

If you're going to be vain, then fair enough. I'm not above catering to unwarranted demands if doing so works out better for me in the end; hawken requires a good reputation if it is to do well, and if people are going to throw a fit over something for no good reason, then it's worth avoiding that fit. That doesn't mean I see it as anything other than asinine and shallow.

He wasn't being vain, you fool, he was simply giving you the data you REQUESTED because my opinion wasn't good enough.  

 

And BTW Hawken doesn't have a very good reputation, it never has, a simple google search shows that.  I wonder how you missed that glaring red flag in your over analysis of the siutation.  You need to do put forth some effort on some background research, maybe read a few old articles here and there, then come back and tell us what we already know.

[TheButtSatisfier]

As for the rest of the posters who are more in-line with Tj, that's still reasonless. There's no reason for exclusivity to be a selling point to any rational person, because they aren't going to see value in that. It's pointless.

 

There are reasons for exclusive cosmetics to be a selling point to any rational person. Here's one: some people acquire exclusive skins for the explicit purpose of adding value to an account that's intended to be resold in the future. Not only does that happen frequently in other games, it's happened here. As I recall, the presence of the cosmetic we're talking about in this thread was a primary reason why that account was purchased.

 

As Jeff said: if you continue to try distilling the thought process behind purchasing cosmetics into a logic flowchart, one where you accept the parts that fit your view of rationality and discard the parts that don't, then you're going to have a bad time.

[Acguy]

-snip-

 

Your notion that old players are simply waiting on the sidelines for something to buy is wrong. If having something to buy is what causes people to be here, then those people would once again quit the instant they finished buying that product. I mean think about it, would a free product attract fewer people than an identical product sold for money? Stuff like this is why I take you to be naiive. Your entire argument banks off the fact that the exclusive itself would actually bring back players, but that isn't the case. It's something that's primarily only going to be sold to people who are already present. On top of that, it's likely that the sale of an exclusive won't even be possible until an update rolls around anyway.

 

I get that he was giving me the data I requested, but the data says this: "he's vain". How is wanting to keep other people from looking like you because you want to be an exclusive special snowflake anything but vain? As I said, stick to listening.

 

some people acquire exclusive skins for the explicit purpose of adding value to an account that's intended to be resold in the future. 

 

This is a good point but strikes me as a niche case. Most games I've played have outright banned account sale anyway, which comes off as a fiscally superior decision.

 

And to add something new to this, wouldn't the old vanguards still be unique anyway if they keep their weapons, as C05 said old units would? The new vanguard is scheduled to have a baby bear instead of an smc.