160 replies to this topic

[OmegaNull]

Agreed. This entire thread has been super awesome to read. Many very valid points have been made. 

 

 

I also want to agree with Def and Slik here as well. The previous system that was in place was absolutely brilliant. Was it the best thing since sliced bread? No, but being able to change how your mech was speced out and see what different things did really was a nice sticking point. Hell, even after finding the meta I found ways to modify things. 

 

Though the one thing that should be done in the future (maybe), is to bring back the same system, but leave dodging static across all mechs. 1 second for A, 1.5 for B, and 2 for C. I think it works well. 

[RedVan]

Exactly, which just further predicates how absurd it is that Hawken is free to play. Hawken F2P is unsustainable, it will never have the sheer volume of players to keep it alive as a free to play game. A free to play game is at the mercy of players willingness to spend money on the game. A large percentage of players don't, so you need to make up for that with a huge population leaving you with a small portion (but enough) of that population that pays into the game.

You and OP said it's a game combined with two niche genres, and history has already shown F2P wasn't a sustainable option for this particular mash up.

Problem is: a more standard payment model isn't sustainable either. That just means they get the $$ up front. But all expenses remain the same. It's still a "double niche" game which will inherently have a smaller player base than other games.

[Superkamikazee]

Problem is: a more standard payment model isn't sustainable either. That just means they get the $$ up front. But all expenses remain the same. It's still a "double niche" game which will inherently have a smaller player base than other games.

 

Correct, but what you're not factoring in is that I also mention Steam Workshop integration. Steam Workshop is a really smart move when done right. To some extent it lifts some burden off the devs for pumping out content, encourages community involvement, devs and community content creators share a cut of the sales. This all goes back to Team Fortress hats. 

[Z3roCool007]

Seasons pass? +1

[StubbornPuppet]

I'll make a small counter-point to the concept of why newcomers to Hawken will believe it is pay-to-win, as well as how I don't think that providing a "comes with all mechs and weapons" package would do much to assuage that perception.

 

Fact:  Hawken is N.O.T. pay-to-win.  Just wanted to make that clear. :)

 

OK, while I believe that Nept is 100% correct that player ego is the biggest cause of p2w perception, I would say that there is almost as big of a cause based in precedence.  Most free-to-play games ARE p2w - and the fact that Hawken is f2p is going to instantly associate it with the plague of f2p/p2w games.  There is no amount of telling people that Hawken is "not p2w" is going to remove all doubt.  They're going to have to figure that out for themselves by playing.

 

I think that selling a "buy everything now" package will probably do more, up-front, to reinforce players preconceived notion that they are getting into a pay-to-win game than it will dissuade it.  I can tell you that I would probably never have started playing Hawken if I had, upon downloading it, been presented with the options for "Play for free and grind your way to upgrades" or "give us a bunch of money now and not have to grind".  I'm sorry, but that would have sent me packing - I don't want to have to pay money to keep from getting slaughtered by rich kids.

 

Again, I am on-board with Hawken, love it... and will preach to the skies that the progression model in Hawken is one of the best ever.  There is no pay-to-win AT ALL and there is no such thing as "the better mech" or "the better weapon", just better players and better situations for each configuration.

 

My 2 cents, Thanks.

[dorobo]

 I have spent zero money on stuff I can earn by playing the game. People won't buy cosmetics if they don't have what to put them on right? And they want that favorite mech of theirs to dress up. The worst thing is to make them grind to the point they will pay.. thats the oldest trick in mobile f2p business and it only works for maybe one percent of those people that are no pc gamers. I have no idea in what situation grind is today as Im an old timer with plenty hc but Im sure it's only the best players that are probably earning those hc fast enough for them to feel no pains of grind :) Anyways you need more players to be sustainable no matter what your f2p model is. For that you need a good polished game with deep learning lots of content and unique mechs so people can see they won't get bored after a few months. Im probably stating here obvious things.. what fool.

[Silk_Sk]

I can tell you that I would probably never have started playing Hawken if I had, upon downloading it, been presented with the options for "Play for free and grind your way to upgrades" or "give us a bunch of money now and not have to grind".  I'm sorry, but that would have sent me packing - I don't want to have to pay money to keep from getting slaughtered by rich kids.

 

I have said it many times and will continue to say it because it is true. Bringing back HC bonuses for service awards will eliminate the P2W perception Hawken has. Early players will not feel like they need to pay-to-not-grind and by the time they hit the grind wall, they are already hooked.

[StubbornPuppet]

^Dorbo, you're not a fool and there's nothing obvious about your points - all valid concerns/questions.

 

To speak to some of your thoughts, from my perspective:

 

The grind in Hawken seems very reasonable to me, and I am actually terrible at it.  The only part that's a bit taxing is the progression to the highest level in a mech.  But, that only get's you the elite skin, all the weapons become available on the next to the last level up.

[Gunmoku]

Conclusion

 

Combining an arena shooter (and a mech game, to boot – another niche genre) with a funding pitch predicated on massive populations wasn't a great idea. Arguably, combining any shooter (that's not CounterStrike) with a funding pitch predicated on massive populations isn't a great idea.

 

If you're planning on posting about the game's direction, please keep my thoughts in mind. We're a tad tired of seeing people claim that their balance/gameplay suggestion will revitalize the community and attract throngs of eager gamers. It won't. The people who are interested in playing an arena mech shooter will play Hawken. The people who aren't interested will not.

 

If we're discussing playerbase development and retention, I believe it better to focus on pay models and communication. Currently, many observers and casual players think that Hawken operates on a “pay2win” model – a perception that cannot be permitted to stand. Kill two birds with one stone by offering a package that includes all current mechs alongside their abilities, weapons, and internals. If you're planning on introducing new mechs (perhaps those that have already been developed), consider a “season pass” model that will provide people future access. Toss in some aesthetics if you're feeling generous. Blitz gaming news sites with the fact that Hawken's not pay2win; capitalize on your community communication by pitching the “New Hawken Developers Working Closely With Community” interview and headline. When you're ready to develop new content, focus on extending the scope of the game through maps and game modes rather than making major balance passes. Blame Saturnine for decisions which aren't well-received.  Profit.

 

 

One last bit: Vanashinkaku (former developer) stated that their decision to include unlocks and levelling was based on data which demonstrated that players enjoy progression. At the same time, however, there were many players (and potential players) wanting to purchase a “full game” sans grinding. The aforementioned suggestions would satisfy both groups of players: those desiring a sense of progression (and to not pay), and those desiring the full game.

 

 

 

You'll likely never wash away the stigma of the "Pay2Win" notion the game's developed, and combined with the fact Reloaded has a penchant for following that kind of business model (see: All-Points Bulletin Reloaded), it's never going to leave 100%.  A ton of developers have this "stink" following them after bad decisions were made, because the Internet never forgets.  Look at Blizzard and the flak they've caught over the years.  The business model as a whole is still very much fair and doesn't hide everything behind a pay-wall.  Content that affects gameplay is available without needing to drop a dime, so it's not truly a "Pay2Win" scheme.  I will agree that a "Complete Edition" DLC would be a welcome sight to new players looking to jump in with long-time veterans with larger arsenals, but it's a careful line that must be walked.

 

Games are pitched with audiences in mind all the time, it's how the bigger players get funded.  Investors need facts or at least evidence that supports their ideas, otherwise it's like taking a shot in the dark.  Did Meteor choose poorly by making numbers a part of their pitch?  Probably.  Rather, just putting names of other games and pitching the original material well enhances said pitch, but doesn't give a hard goal.

 

Progression itself is a fickle beast.  People love it because it gives a sense of accomplishment, it's effort justification.  Problem most games have is that they make progression too grindy or full of arduous tasks, so it feels like you're on a treadmill steadily going up an incline.  Then they dangle shiny stuff in front of you for a reasonable price, therefore you buy it.  It's a terrible scheme, but obviously it tends to work, so why get rid of it?  What they need to do is give more exclusive, less weighty content to us in the shop.  Cooler paint jobs, exclusive skins, etc.  People would still buy that even if the grind wasn't forcing them to buy what they wanted.

[MomOw]

I just hope that they find a efficient business plan and that they'll openly communicate it when changes will come out.

[DennisKnightPC]

the tiered system of unlocking mechs feeds the idea that the mechs at the top are the best.  I think it would be a good idea to let players choose any one starting mech for free (Pokemon style).  This, in conjunction with well-equipped test drive mechs, would go some way to making new players realise that experience counts for far more than the mech itself and the game is not P2W.

[StubbornPuppet]

the tiered system of unlocking mechs feeds the idea that the mechs at the top are the best.  I think it would be a good idea to let players choose any one starting mech for free (Pokemon style).  This, in conjunction with well-equipped test drive mechs, would go some way to making new players realise that experience counts for far more than the mech itself and the game is not P2W.

 

While this would certainly be appealing to the new players, the price to be paid would be in thousands of Alt./Smurf accounts being created.  If there is no price and no consequence for having an account for each mech - even more people would do it than already do.  At least, the way it is now, if folks want to do that, they end up paying real money to get a different mech on those accounts so they don't have to grind all the way through the CR-T ranks first (and thereby defeat their purpose of making an alt. account - because their MMR will be up high enough that the alt account has almost no benefit).

[DennisKnightPC]

While this would certainly be appealing to the new players, the price to be paid would be in thousands of Alt./Smurf accounts being created.  If there is no price and no consequence for having an account for each mech - even more people would do it than already do.  At least, the way it is now, if folks want to do that, they end up paying real money to get a different mech on those accounts so they don't have to grind all the way through the CR-T ranks first (and thereby defeat their purpose of making an alt. account - because their MMR will be up high enough that the alt account has almost no benefit).

 

Fair point, didn't think about smurf accounts.  

[MomOw]

If you wanted to do it "pokemon style", limit the choice to the zerker, the brawler or the assault and only after the VR is completed.

[Silk_Sk]

Agreed. This entire thread has been super awesome to read. Many very valid points have been made. 

 

 

I also want to agree with Def and Slik here as well. The previous system that was in place was absolutely brilliant. Was it the best thing since sliced bread? No, but being able to change how your mech was speced out and see what different things did really was a nice sticking point. Hell, even after finding the meta I found ways to modify things. 

 

Though the one thing that should be done in the future (maybe), is to bring back the same system, but leave dodging static across all mechs. 1 second for A, 1.5 for B, and 2 for C. I think it works well. 

 

I don't know why you thought we were talking about but it wasn't the mech stats and the ability to change them. It was the HC for service awards.

[RedVan]

Correct, but what you're not factoring in is that I also mention Steam Workshop integration. Steam Workshop is a really smart move when done right. To some extent it lifts some burden off the devs for pumping out content, encourages community involvement, devs and community content creators share a cut of the sales. This all goes back to Team Fortress hats.

Steam workshop would be nice IMO. But that's not exclusive to either F2P or one time purchase :)

[Aelieth]

Not going to make too long of a long post, or really keep up with the posts. Just want to throw my two cents in. Hawken was amazing when I started up on it, playing against the devs in alpha and beta, watching the progression, and throwing my money at it for development. Was happy as it just began progressing, got the limited Christmas skins, and the limited original contributer skin.

After a few more months it all began unraveling to me. Everything became way too micromanaged, buying so many individual parts for different mechs. The grinds were intense. Too many numbers just on garage screen. Nothing was simple, it was all very convoluted to me - even as a veteran gamer. Then add I was either utterly destroying newcomers or having some pretty rough battles against the veterans without much to see from it all. There was no real reward or satisfaction from it.

At that time I had stopped playing Hawken and went back to League.

I agree that FPS games like this are very niche, where quick reflexes and hand eye coordination are key. Still makes me sad to see how far it fell, and how quickly it fell. The original release and beta were where it was at. Simple, fun, easy to do. I honestly do not see Hawken coming back from the dead. It's audience will stay an even smaller fraction than before since many who played it have moved onto other games and will look for something new around the corner. The name can still be used, but the game would have to be new, and marketed as new. As a modder, this reminds me of several mods out there that took off, then the core developers couldn't maintain and shut it down - then a new group popped up and tried to make it work. A small community rallied, but its limelight was done.

Yeah, I still support Hawken and will probably load it up. Yet, as it stands it needs to be gutted and taken back to a drawing board IMO. That's often the best way I've found to do things as a project manager and modder / coder, else it will just sink under its own entanglement.

[AsianJoyKiller]

In my experience with SMITE, I have never, ever come across someone claiming P2W shenanigans. Now, I'm not familiar with LoL, DOTA, or any other MOBAs, so I don't know if this is a phenomena among them.

But I do find that the SMITE payment model is very clear, and must aid in eliminating any mistaken thoughts.

FYI, SMITE payment model works like so:
- 2 currencies. Favor and Gems. Favor is earned currency, while Gems are cash currency.

- Starter gods or gods on rotation can be used for free.

- Gods can be purchased via 3 methods. Individually with Favor. Individually with Gems. Or purchase the $30 God Pack and unlock all gods (including all future gods).

- Gem-only items are purely cosmetic (skins, voice packs, icons, etc.)

- There is a log-in bonus that scales for each consecutive day you log in for 7 days (progress resetes if you don't log for 24 hours after the daily server reset time). The bonuses include a decent amount of favor, and even free Gems for the last 2 days (You get 200 gems per month, which is equal to a voice pack or lower teir skin, like recolors or slightly modified defaults). This means, in SMITE, if you're dedicated enough and log in regularly, you can get literally all regularly purchasable items in the game for free.

[CounterlogicMan]

"When you're ready to develop new content, focus on extending the scope of the game through maps and game modes rather than making major balance passes. Blame Saturnine for decisions which aren't well-received.  Profit. " - Nept

 

 

[Superkamikazee]

Not going to make too long of a long post, or really keep up with the posts. Just want to throw my two cents in. Hawken was amazing when I started up on it, playing against the devs in alpha and beta, watching the progression, and throwing my money at it for development. Was happy as it just began progressing, got the limited Christmas skins, and the limited original contributer skin.

After a few more months it all began unraveling to me. Everything became way too micromanaged, buying so many individual parts for different mechs. The grinds were intense. Too many numbers just on garage screen. Nothing was simple, it was all very convoluted to me - even as a veteran gamer. Then add I was either utterly destroying newcomers or having some pretty rough battles against the veterans without much to see from it all. There was no real reward or satisfaction from it.

At that time I had stopped playing Hawken and went back to League.

I agree that FPS games like this are very niche, where quick reflexes and hand eye coordination are key. Still makes me sad to see how far it fell, and how quickly it fell. The original release and beta were where it was at. Simple, fun, easy to do. I honestly do not see Hawken coming back from the ded. It's audience will stay an even smaller fraction than before since many who played it have moved onto other games and will look for something new around the corner. The name can still be used, but the game would have to be new, and marketed as new. As a modder, this reminds me of several mods out there that took off, then the core developers couldn't maintain and shut it down - then a new group popped up and tried to make it work. A small community rallied, but its limelight was done.

Yeah, I still support Hawken and will probably load it up. Yet, as it stands it needs to be gutted and taken back to a drawing board IMO. That's often the best way I've found to do things as a project manager and modder / coder, else it will just sink under its own entanglement.

 

Agreed. ADH tried too hard to make this an E Sports game instead of just accepting what it was in early closed beta. Plenty of games with lower "skill ceilings" that do just fine, have positive critical reception, and support a healthy community and player base. Plants vs Zombies: Garden Warfare is a fair example. ADH had a good thing going, and the mecha fans supported it, now we have a lackluster attempt for e sports acceptance. 

[vonbach]

The reasons for the fall were simple. 

Lack of a real matchmaking system. With new players getting stomped because of it.

Lack of Dev support. The game just seemed to by dying on the vine and people could see it.

The grind. The grind (unless you want to pay for mechs and systems whatever) is very, very tedious.

Lack of balance. A classes in general are very fast very difficult to hit (especially for newer players)

and have insane firepower for their size. An experienced pilot or even a pilot that just knows how to dodge

can clear entire servers by themselves. All in all Hawken is a good game and one i played to death on Beta

but with a little TLC this game could be so much more.

[Silverfire]

1. Matchmaking, IMO, just lacks the playerbase to be effective. Matchmaking won't ever be perfect with a small population because there aren't enough players to sort through. It can use some tweaking but it's not bad at all.

2. Can't argue with that, but that's due to a variety of issues, some out of the devs' control.

3. Grind isn't bad as pretty much every other F2P game, but it can always be improved.

4. Why should a mech class get nerfed if people are the problem? You said it yourself, players have difficulty hitting them (aka skill issue), it's a learn-to-aim scenario and master-movement scenario. As many players have trouble dealing with A classes, I know plenty of players who have zero issues hitting and killing A classes. If the game did a better job fostering skill in players and helping them grow, this should be less of an issue. Address the root of the problem (game not teaching players how to play, aim, move properly) rather than a symptom of the problem (players don't know how to deal with a type of mech, gotta Nerf it). The tutorial sucks. It needs much more in depth-ness to properly instruct new players on advanced movement. The game needs to take it upon itself to educate players; the community, while great, can't do everything for the game (aka teach players how to move, etc).

Edited by Silverfire, 31 March 2015 - 10:46 AM.

[vonbach]

Oh come on scouts are a problem and everyone knows it. Its not just a "skill issue" either.

Unless you play certain mechs and the scout actually makes mistakes your going to lose.

Thats just the way it is.

Thats why you'll end up one scout dominating entire teams until they either herd together 

like cows or just refuse to get out of the base. The scout has been this way since alpha.

[Silverfire]

Or you completely out duel the Scout in another Scout...oh wait? Most mechs can out play the Scout? Unheard of! Another mech beating Scouts 1v1? Whoooooa.

I've seen plenty of mechs dominate Scouts and dominate matches that aren't even A classes. Scouts can just dominate matches as a G2 Raider can. The counter to Scouts isn't always grouping up. Outplay it. It's 100% possible.

I don't even play Scout honestly.

Edited by Silverfire, 31 March 2015 - 11:08 AM.

[Dew]

Oh come on scouts are a problem and everyone knows it. Its not just a "skill issue" either.

Unless you play certain mechs and the scout actually makes mistakes your going to lose.

Thats just the way it is.

Thats why you'll end up one scout dominating entire teams until they either herd together 

like cows or just refuse to get out of the base. The scout has been this way since alpha.

 

Kindly don't bring this nonsense into a perfectly productive thread.

 

 

These are all great insights about Hawken's flaws. But no one here seems to have mentioned the jenga block that began to topple the Hawken tower. The fact of the matter is, there was a time when the game wasn't perceived as P2W. The game had an absolutely brilliant system for easing new players into the game. Once that system was removed, new players stopped sticking with the game and thus began the decline. This system was HC bonuses for service awards. I wish I could link to the posts, but when the patch that removed them came about, I immediately called out that this would wreck the game's longevity, and I still believe I was correct. Here's why.

 

When a new player started Hawken, they got a flood of early service awards. When those came with HC, the players felt like the grind was nice and easy and they had breathing room to experiment with parts. Then, the service awards stop coming as quickly, and the HC cushion they had ran out. In order to earn more HC, they needed to get more service awards by playing with new mechs, winning in more modes, etc. It had a beautiful curve to it, the way it eased new players into the game and got them hooked, then made them want to continue playing even after their HC accrual rate slowed down. And even for players who had been around a while, there was the occasional big bonus award that gave something like 5000 HC. Those were great, the way they gave something for players to work towards.

 

And then the devs removed it. They took away HC bonuses for the vast majority of service awards.  I have much respect for them, but that was an incredibly stupid move. Sure, there are a few early awards that give HC but combined they can't even buy a weapon. Now, new players are forced to face the grind up front and thus we get all these P2W complaints. I used to be able to introduce friends to this game and they would continue playing. Not so, anymore. Now the game gives such a terrible first impression, reviewers who only play it for a week or two all say the grind is a real problem.

 

Now, I understand their reasons for that decision. They had just switched over to a new system of items and internals, and all of the players were refunded the HC they had paid in the previous model. I had something like 700,000 HC to burn, which was more than enough to pay for everything I had previously owned. The economy was slightly unbalanced. Still, I do not think they should have taken away HC bonuses. They were concerned that bundle purchases would not be as attractive, but I don't think that there would have been any significant drop in paying players. Not enough to justify the decision they made.

 

 

This is an excellent point that I think needs to be stressed. The grind for new players right now is just terrible, taking away the HC bonuses on service awards was one of the worst decisions they made. I surmise their logic behind it had something to do with players accumulating huge piles of HC and never spending real money for anything, but to me that just speaks that you need a more effective cosmetic/vanity currency sink for wealthy players.

Edited by Dew, 31 March 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[vonbach]

Kindly don't bring this nonsense into a perfectly productive thread.

Hey its an issue when you have a gaggle of new players  all playing or just a bunch of casuals

and a scout player or worse a scout and his buddies comes in and pulverizes them so bad they rage and 

go back to TF2 or COD.

[Silverfire]

Hey its an issue when you have a gaggle of new players all playing or just a bunch of casuals
and a scout player or worse a scout and his buddies comes in and pulverizes them so bad they rage and
go back to TF2 or COD.

You can literally make the same argument with EVERY other mech, so what's your point?

[Mergaz]

Some players are confusing metagame and balancing ...

As the modder colleague spoke the Reloaded patch will have to be a REAL  reload and not a simple patch of correction and balancing. It will have to be presented as something new, revolutionary, as it was in 2011-2012.

Edited by Mergaz, 31 March 2015 - 02:39 PM.

[Silk_Sk]

This is an excellent point that I think needs to be stressed. The grind for new players right now is just terrible, taking away the HC bonuses on service awards was one of the worst decisions they made. I surmise their logic behind it had something to do with players accumulating huge piles of HC and never spending real money for anything, but to me that just speaks that you need a more effective cosmetic/vanity currency sink for wealthy players.

 

I'm glad you agree with me. Not nearly enough people are bringing this up and I really think the devs should be making it a priority to re-implement.

[TheFrostnessMonster]

More HC bonuses are good, because (like many in this thread have already said) it made the grind somewhat more tolerable for newbies, since they could customize to a certain degree without pulling the out the rug beneath their own feet.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Some players are confusing metagame and balancing ...

As the modder colleague spoke the Reloaded patch will have to be a REAL  reload and not a simple patch of correction and balancing. It will have to be presented as something new, revolutionary, as it was in 2011-2012.

You mean like Ascension, the revolutionary content patch that drove away so many players they had to revert many of the changes lest it kill the game?

[Mergaz]

You mean like Ascension, the revolutionary content patch that drove away so many players they had to revert many of the changes lest it kill the game?

and steam patch is?

[Xacius]

and steam patch is?

 

Also bad, but for different reasons.  

[AsianJoyKiller]

and steam patch is?

I just find it amusing you keep pushing for certain kind of content patch for Reloaded to put forth. But you keep ignoring that Ascension was the addition of that content, and it failed horribly.

So I just see you all over these forums going "Hey! You know how Ascension failed spectacularly? Yeah. Let's do that again."

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 31 March 2015 - 07:36 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

This is an excellent point that I think needs to be stressed. The grind for new players right now is just terrible, taking away the HC bonuses on service awards was one of the worst decisions they made. I surmise their logic behind it had something to do with players accumulating huge piles of HC and never spending real money for anything, but to me that just speaks that you need a more effective cosmetic/vanity currency sink for wealthy players.

 

Removing them was definitely a mistake, not just because it intensified the grind like you said, but also because it took away the only tangible rewards for trying out new mechs and playing past 30 in general. Reintroducing HC bonuses for service awards plus adding credit incentives for sticking in the same server would do a lot to reduce the grind while also alleviating team balance issues somewhat. The pricing schemes (possibly barring items and reticles) wouldn't even have to change; there would just be more worthwhile and efficient ways to go about getting HC than dailies, which need to be replaced or reworked anyway. 

[JackVandal]

i heartily agree with the thoughts behind this, many a time i have had to get my teeth fed to me in multiple mechs before i will acknowledge someone is better than me 1v1, and perception is paramount for new players. I also agree to a small extent about the camos, about half of them are different kinds of army camo, impulse buying will also increase with lower more numerous prices, though this requires more content for the devs to make.

[Rmait]

OK but what is being done about that? Anything to attract now players would be nice,  within reason of course.  I think I am seeing many of the veterans saying or implying they would take a little less in HC if it meant more new people to come to the game.  I hope I am right because this seems to be a really cool community of players more than willing to help.  It is all about Hawken surviving.

[palad1ne]

Hawken was imho never pay2win. Sadly new players had to adapt several massive changes in the whole game mechanic since open beta. Name only progression system or Slot Items. There was no straight line from the idea to the final release because the Dev's followed more some wisecracking from handful individuals  instead making the Game suitable for the casual players. 

This resulted in unpossible Matchmaking because they was no more left to ensure a balanced matchmaking. 

 

Giving away the full blown Assault for newbs, which is a very good setup, is a nice move from the new Development. This is what the New Player need. Some tool that he can even compete a little bit and have some "precious moments" while having fun in Game. Also learn some skillz, get some progression, instead of being stomped by selfish egomaniacs which doesn't care anyway. 

 

i really hope this will work out this time for Hawken. 

[bacon_avenger]

Hawken was imho never pay2win. Sadly new players had to adapt several massive changes in the whole game mechanic since open beta. Name only progression system or Slot Items. There was no straight line from the idea to the final release because the Dev's followed more some wisecracking from handful individuals  instead making the Game suitable for the casual players. 

Actually, ADH said many of the ascension changes, the internal and item slots system, etc, were supposedly based on the feedback they got from people who tried the earlier build and didn't like it.

 

So no, it was the 'casual' players they listened to, not a 'handful of individuals'.

 

EDIT:  Mind you, I'm not stating that Reloaded should listen to only vets and the top players, I'm saying that it's unfair and incorrect to blame them for the direction Hawken went when the feedback from the HAB runs, which was the ascension patch, was pretty much universally negative.

Edited by bacon_avenger, 01 April 2015 - 02:35 PM.

[Mergaz]

I already knew that Ascension would be crap so it was announced the HAB and went completely against it in the old forum. Had many players defending thinking it was a good thing that the game would take off and poof  Ascension was the Hell Gate that led to Steam Patch.

You know what I find funny? If the Ascension was a patch to casual gameplay why the population lose so many casual players and after 3 months were practically only the vets online? Was supposed to happen exactly the opposite: Hardcore players should have gone out and casual players should have increased exponentially.

Ascension was an exclusion patch that has already begun with the HAB excluding much of the playerbase direct participation in feedback. It was obvious that this was going to go wrong.

Edited by Mergaz, 01 April 2015 - 03:38 PM.