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Direction of the Game and Tuning

- - - - - tuning direction future balance customization mech mecha

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#1
Ezhnoman

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Opening up, I did my due diligence looking for other posts like this. I searched the topic here and on Google, I read through any post that seemed tangentially related and might stray into this topic, and I read through dev notes to see if this topic was already covered by a blanket announcement.

 

Second, my credentials with Hawken. I've followed it from the earliest days, and played it since 2013 when I finally had a suitable machine to run it. I've logged many hours in game, though only 1 since the Steam update when I stopped having fun in game. Nevertheless, I continued to follow Hawken even through the dark times because no game to date has given me such joy in the same way as Hawken has in the past and if there was a chance that it could return to that then I was willing to stick with it and try to help it, however small my help may be.

 

Finally, my suggestion. I find the need for Hawken, as a game within the mech genre, to have some form of deep, incremental part customization. The old tuning system had its problems, and that is why I am NOT suggesting its return. What I am suggesting are several ideas that could potentially replace that system. Hawken doesn't need to be a simulator, but I think that it should recognize that the machines being piloted are complex armors that can be tweaked one from the next instead of being purely stock tanks from the assembly line.

 

As a final note, I do not suggest this immediately. There are other fundamental problems that need to be looked into first and the game needs to be stabilized for the population to grow before changes like this can be added on. Still, here are my suggestions.

 

Suggestion 1: Universal Systems

 

Unlike the aforementioned tuning, all mechs of all classes should have the same options and to the same degree as each other. This prevents unbalancing the different mechs considering that regardless of based stats. Previously, each mech had its own upgradable systems, which only served to stratify the mechs negatively and lead to optimal builds and classes.

 

Suggestion 2: Credit based Tuning

 

While I have no problem with tuning points being based on skill level, and personally found it enjoyable to pubstomp teams of maxed players while I myself was 10 levels lower, some people disagree. Set up the tuning to a credit based. Spend either type of credit and earn a point. Alternately, spend credits to tune the mech rather than to buy points to tune it. Considering the difficulty of earning credits this may be a tricky balance but a properly created tuning system will emphasize playstyle balancing instead of optimal building, meaning that whether you use the stock build or not, you are not disadvantaged one way or another. This leads to the third suggestion...

 

Suggestion 3: Tuning Polarity

 

The former system had tuning set up that no matter how you spent your points, your tuned mech was better than an untuned one. That is a problem. Tuning polarity means that every benefit that you gain from tuning, you also gain a detriment. A simple concept to showcase this would be weight based tuning. Tuning heavy gives you the benefit of armor, perhaps damage and heat management, but you lose speed, fuel efficiency, and dodging ability. Tuning light does the opposite, less armor, damage, and more prone to overheating in exchange for faster speeds, fuel efficiency, and dodging ability. Of course, a cap on both sides of the spectrum is a must, otherwise things can get out of hand. A system like this, properly balanced, means that each player can customize their mech to fit their playstyle, while not making tuned mechs better by default.

 

Overall, this is one of many options, but it is likely one of the easier to implement considering that I have crossed a few sources that say adding more weapon options to mechs would be exceedingly difficult. As a matter of fact, the reason I split it into three suggestions was because each part can stand alone without the others. Ultimately, the only thing I believe is important is deep, incremental customization and I do not think that internals alone can manage this, not unless a lot of internals are created, and more internals are allowed in each mech. A properly implemented and balanced system should not be too intrusive as to radically alter and unbalance the game.

 

Most importantly, such a system can bring in those players that enjoy the mech genre but find that Hawken is far too light a mech game to differentiate it from the other arena shooters that are already established and have a flourishing community. We aren't going to pull in hardcore mech enthusiasts regardless. It is too niche a market and MWO already does it better than Hawken could without a complete redesign of the game, let alone rewrite, but the market is varied and many enthusiasts enjoy the different subgenres including the lighter, simpler, faster paced subgenres. Catering a little more to the more stat oriented min/maxing crowd would widen our market to those who enjoy MWO, but would like a faster paced, simpler game that still has a somewhat deep customization system to play beside it and fulfill their desire for a multitude of mech based combat. 


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#2
bacon_avenger

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Suggestion 1: Universal Systems

Unlike the aforementioned tuning, all mechs of all classes should have the same options and to the same degree as each other. This prevents unbalancing the different mechs considering that regardless of based stats. Previously, each mech had its own upgradable systems, which only served to stratify the mechs negatively and lead to optimal builds and classes.

Agreed. This was one of the things I criticized about the ascension tuning system.

 

Suggestion 2: Credit based Tuning

While I have no problem with tuning points being based on skill level, and personally found it enjoyable to pubstomp teams of maxed players while I myself was 10 levels lower, some people disagree. Set up the tuning to a credit based. Spend either type of credit and earn a point. Alternately, spend credits to tune the mech rather than to buy points to tune it. Considering the difficulty of earning credits this may be a tricky balance but a properly created tuning system will emphasize playstyle balancing instead of optimal building, meaning that whether you use the stock build or not, you are not disadvantaged one way or another.

Hmm, this could work as it's not a strictly vertical progression system. It would have to be carefully done and would have (I'd consider it something that it must have) the next suggestion incorporated to prevent pay to win accusations...

(Which, thinking about it, may be unavoidable as even if it was HC only, there are HC boosters available, so it could be viewed as an indirect P2W... But I digress...)
 

Suggestion 3: Tuning Polarity

The former system had tuning set up that no matter how you spent your points, your tuned mech was better than an untuned one. That is a problem. Tuning polarity means that every benefit that you gain from tuning, you also gain a detriment. A simple concept to showcase this would be weight based tuning. Tuning heavy gives you the benefit of armor, perhaps damage and heat management, but you lose speed, fuel efficiency, and dodging ability. Tuning light does the opposite, less armor, damage, and more prone to overheating in exchange for faster speeds, fuel efficiency, and dodging ability. Of course, a cap on both sides of the spectrum is a must, otherwise things can get out of hand. A system like this, properly balanced, means that each player can customize their mech to fit their playstyle, while not making tuned mechs better by default.

This.  So much this.

This is a major criticism I leveled at ADH for the ascension tuning system, it was strongly vertical and offered no downsides.  I'd like to test a system like this.

 

If you recall, the early open beta internals were like this. They gave a positive effect, but also had a negative effect. This is what all the current internals should be doing, and what any tuning system that might be added should do as well.


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#3
AsianJoyKiller

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If you recall, the early open beta internals were like this. They gave a positive effect, but also had a negative effect. This is what all the current internals should be doing, and what any tuning system that might be added should do as well.

They'll always have the issue of cookie cutter builds. Let's not forget that.



#4
bacon_avenger

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They'll always have the issue of cookie cutter builds. Let's not forget that.

Granted, that is an issue.  But we also have much of that now with things like the orblord build (if a specific build has a name...)

 

Unfortunately, if there ever is going to be a reappearance of any kind of tuning, I don't really see a way to get around this, not fully, as long as Hawken keeps the 'movement is king' meta.  Heck, the movement tree was the tree to follow for early open beta, even with how hard it was nerfed.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing something like this again, but as stated, making it bonuses only is bad, as was the implementation of the ascension tree.  It would have to be very carefully designed and tested before making it the default.


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#5
KilleR_OrigiNs

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Redacted.


Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 10:14 PM.

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#6
AsianJoyKiller

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Granted, that is an issue.  But we also have much of that now with things like the orblord build (if a specific build has a name...)

 

Unfortunately, if there ever is going to be a reappearance of any kind of tuning, I don't really see a way to get around this, not fully, as long as Hawken keeps the 'movement is king' meta.  Heck, the movement tree was the tree to follow for early open beta, even with how hard it was nerfed.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing something like this again, but as stated, making it bonuses only is bad, as was the implementation of the ascension tree.  It would have to be very carefully designed and tested before making it the default.

The thing is, skill trees, especially ones with up and downsides, are extremely prone to cookie cutter problems. It's actually quite a bit easier to balance out items and internals so that there's a decent variety.



#7
bacon_avenger

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The thing is, skill trees, especially ones with up and downsides, are extremely prone to cookie cutter problems. It's actually quite a bit easier to balance out items and internals so that there's a decent variety.

Are you thinking of items/internals with good and bad sides (early open beta/closed beta) or what we have now with all positives...

 

I'm fairly sure anyone who has seen more than a few of my posts knows my thoughts on them :smile:


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