HAWKEN servers are up and our latest minor update is live!
Forgot Password_ SUPPORT REDEEM CODE

Jump to content


The BRUISER must be UNCHAINED!

Beta

  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#1 Conquistador

Conquistador

    Holy Roman Emperor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,176 posts
  • LocationAt the back of the North Wind

Posted November 26 2012 - 01:50 PM

This is a fairly lengthy exposition. Consider yourself warned.

The B-class Mech known as the Bruiser is currently shunned as one of the least effective Mechs in this current build of the beta. Say what you will about its design and current implementation, but I clearly remember a pre-closed beta stage when the bruiser was second only to the infiltrator in sheer effectiveness. In between that time and this closed beta 3, the bruiser has been hit quite viciously with the nerf bat, an experience not entirely unwarranted.

The problem, however, lies in its underwhelming current package as a sum of its smaller parts. It deserved a nerf, but was nerfed too dramatically as a result. Incremental balancing changes to the Medium mech chassis, hellfire missiles, and point-d Vulcan and the later inclusion of level 20 prestige unlocks have made the bruiser a much less potent rival against the extremely well balanced assault B mech.

"Why should I choose the bruiser_", you may ask. Right now, it's a difficult question to answer. It simply does not compete in the traditional sense against other Mechs in its category, and may have difficulty against Mechs across the board. For the sake of deconstructing the problems of the bruiser in its current state, I intend to cover each of its individual components in turn.

Changes to Medium B-class Mech Chassis Behavior: Acceptable nerf, consistent to all B mechs
The B class Mechs have been slowed considerably since the last beta build. This nerf to maneuverability is a consistent nerf which affects all B-mechs in general, making them less prone to dodge incoming projectiles and rendering A class matchups much more challenging. Not a deal breaker in itself, but only the first piece of the puzzle.

Hellfire missile changes: Acceptable nerf, makes weapon situational
Hellfire missiles (prior to the seeker's introduction) where the only aim-assisted projectile weapon in the game. Their ability to do massive amounts of homing damage were offset by a need to take precious seconds to lock onto a target (about two seconds instead of being instantaneous like before) and they always gave the opponent fair warning on the heads up display. Reduced damage and longer lock-on time were offset by smarter locked on projectile behavior, so the missiles track much more consistently. The main weakness of this weapon is inconsistent burst damage: a tow or grenade launcher can deliver predictable damage to an enemy at close to medium range by firing a burst and ducking behind cover immediately. To do the same sort of damage, Hellfires need a timed lock (with no burst potential), or can by dry fired for instant burst damage with unpredictable weapons spread (useless at medium range, unlike tows or grenades).

Point D-Vulcan changes: Unacceptable nerf, guts Bruiser's capabilities dramatically
This is by far the most damning feature of the bruiser at the moment. One of two major distinguishing factors that sets it apart from other mechs, the vulcan as a primary, is a terribly underpowered weapon due to overheat. Seven seconds of sustained firing time cause weapons overheat, and this effect cannot be reliably offset by the addition of internals or the impotence of the skill tree. Because the Vulcan has spin up time, it is difficult in a firefight to choose a moment to cool the weapon. The assault rifle and submachine gun do not have spin up time before reignition, and are therefore better for heat management. Bruisers currently are prone to overheat before taking down a single C class mech, making solo combat extremely difficult even in ideal situations. This weapon may improve with the slated nine seconds of sustained fire promised by the recent patch, but as of now, the devs have yet to deliver.

Level 20 prestige unlocks: Simply unacceptable
There are entire forum discussions about this point. Within context of the Bruiser, the appearance of level twenty unlocks begs the question: "why should I ever pick the bruiser, when I can get a level twenty assault with Vulcan and tow and heat venting_" Not only does the Vulcan get a whopping fourteen seconds of sustained firing time on the assault chassis, it gets burst damage from the tow. In every respect, the Vulcan assault Mech has all of the strengths of the bruiser with none of the weaknesses.

After heavy play testing, all signs point to the devs designing the bruiser to fit the role of sustained suppression fire and damage output in open spaces, I get that. Their special ability supports this methodology, with damage reduction mitigating the need to stay fairly exposed when using both the Vulcan and the Hellfires. It's a well designed Mech conceptually, but in practice it falls flat on its face due to the aforementioned points. I've had some success operating under a machine gun turret which makes up for my lack of sustained damage, but this is a cheesy solution and there are balance problems with the turrets I can't even begin to get into.

Now, how to fix it in three simple steps:
- Remove the vulcan from the list of level 20 prestige unlocks. Giving Vulcan to the assault Mech and berserker Mech are inexcusable. (It may be tolerated on a c-class Mech like the brawler but that's about it.) Giving the assault and berserker classes access to this weapon is a big reason not to ever play the bruiser. It takes away a defining feature that makes the class unique as a designated damage dealer in open terrain. (Better yet, spare us the trouble with balance and get rid of level 20 unlocks altogether.)

- Buff the Vulcan by fixing its overheat or increasing its damage thoroughput. Either-or, not both. I recommend nine seconds of sustained firing time (just like the devs promised) or more damage per shot. Just enough to kill a C-class Mech when used in conjunction with the missiles. The bruiser should do enough damage to matter, and right now it doesn't.

- Buff the bruiser's special ability to tangible levels. Currently, it's difficult to really feel if the bruiser's ability is working or not, due to lack of visible cues and the fact multiple sources of overlapping enemy fire make it hard to quantify. Buffing the bruiser's special ability is a consideration that would keep the class on par with enemy mechs in open terrain.

- Optional step 4: provide the bruiser with a burst damage primary, like the HEAT or flak cannon. I've listed this as optional because it would involve a lot of testing to get right and doesn't sit with the sustained damage concept of the current bruiser. (Though the mini flak with its hybrid nature between burst and persistent sustained damage would definitely suit this role.)


The Bruiser must be unchained before open beta 2 goes live to stay relevant. I have my fingers crossed.

Edited by Conquistador, November 27 2012 - 11:22 PM.

Posted Image

#2 ReachH

ReachH

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,460 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted November 26 2012 - 02:13 PM

Yeh giving a vulcan to the assault was a real slap in the face wasn't it :/ Maybe if the bruiser got a HEAT unlock it would be good. HEAT+Hellfire sounds like it should be called 'Bruiser'.

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


Posted Image


#3 Watiu

Watiu

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted November 26 2012 - 02:54 PM

I would imagine many balance changes will come as more people start to play.  I main the Bruiser and yes, the Vulcan is terribly under-powered.  While it may have been a little too powerful before it is now just plain fuzzy bunny.  However, with modifications and optimizations the heating problem goes away a bit.  To me the Bruiser is a good hit-and-run mech, and that is how it is should be played.  I normally get lots of assists rather than outright kills.  Since overheating is a large issue (god it sucks) it's much easier to shoot Hellfires and then spray the Vulcan for a few seconds and get outta dodge and hope your teammates are there to cover you.

#4 Silk_Sk

Silk_Sk

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 702 posts

Posted November 26 2012 - 02:55 PM

View PostReachH, on November 26 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Yeh giving a vulcan to the assault was a real slap in the face wasn't it :/ Maybe if the bruiser got a HEAT unlock it would be good. HEAT+Hellfire sounds like it should be called 'Bruiser'.

HEAT + Hellfire equals what the Rocketeer used to be, albeit a slightly faster, weaker version.
Posted Image

#5 Conquistador

Conquistador

    Holy Roman Emperor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,176 posts
  • LocationAt the back of the North Wind

Posted November 26 2012 - 03:22 PM

View PostSilk_Sk, on November 26 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

View PostReachH, on November 26 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Yeh giving a vulcan to the assault was a real slap in the face wasn't it :/ Maybe if the bruiser got a HEAT unlock it would be good. HEAT+Hellfire sounds like it should be called 'Bruiser'.

HEAT + Hellfire equals what the Rocketeer used to be, albeit a slightly faster, weaker version.
When you put it that way, I think giving the Bruiser Flak or Miniflak as an alternate might be more appropriate.
Posted Image

#6 Decoy101x

Decoy101x

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 629 posts
  • LocationPlainfield, Illinois

Posted November 26 2012 - 03:30 PM

bruiser with a flak/miniflak makes me smile with delight.   let me choose between flak and the submachine gun and ill be =D

i do like the vulcan but it does need either a SLIGHT damage buff or a slgiht decrease in heat generation. but theres no denying that it dishes some huting when its turned on.

I too agree with changing the level 20 reward for the assult. the vulcan should be only on one mech
Crackin' eggs like we crack smoke. Smoke crack_ No! That's bad!

Posted Image

#7 Jagdwyre

Jagdwyre

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 82 posts

Posted November 26 2012 - 04:22 PM

I'd rather the Vulcan get buffed to relevance instead of just copping out and giving the Bruiser flak(although why not have both_)

The design of the Vulcan lends itself to the nature of what the bruiser "should" be able to do via it's ability. Which is to just stay in a direct fight and dish out the damage imo.

The Vulcan really needs to have it's power, because the weapon is in no way designed for hit-and-run, even the AR is better suited for such a thing given it has no spin up.

#8 Brawli

Brawli

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts

Posted November 26 2012 - 04:35 PM

As it stands the SMG is a better weapon than the vulcan in every facet, It loses out 2 damage per shot to the vulcan, but it has a higher RoF, slightly worse accuracy, better effective range, a ton less heat produced(11.3 on the vulcan vs 7.4 on the SMG) , and it has no wind up time.

I thought the vulcan was supposed to be like a minigun, and yet it isn't even the highest RoF in the game, even though the sound effect would lead you to believe that it is.  

After the damage comparison post I kinda thought it'd be clear how much work it needs, but it's been almost a week and nothing, pretty dissapointed.

Edited by Brawli, November 26 2012 - 04:36 PM.


#9 Beemann

Beemann

    Sentient Wall-of-Text

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,974 posts
  • LocationVancouver, BC

Posted November 26 2012 - 04:42 PM

Quote

I clearly remember a pre-closed beta stage when the bruiser was second only to the infiltrator in sheer effectiveness.
Really_ I just remember a lot of free kills for my Brawler and Assault
Posted Image

C-Class Swagger
Ballin' and Brawlin'
Cloakin' and Smokin'

#10 Conquistador

Conquistador

    Holy Roman Emperor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,176 posts
  • LocationAt the back of the North Wind

Posted November 26 2012 - 04:47 PM

View PostBeemann, on November 26 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Quote

I clearly remember a pre-closed beta stage when the bruiser was second only to the infiltrator in sheer effectiveness.
Really_ I just remember a lot of free kills for my Brawler and Assault
Perhaps I remember the bruiser being second to infiltrator as the class people loved complaining about as 'overpowered'. Either or.

Edited by Conquistador, November 26 2012 - 05:07 PM.

Posted Image

#11 Beemann

Beemann

    Sentient Wall-of-Text

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,974 posts
  • LocationVancouver, BC

Posted November 26 2012 - 04:52 PM

View PostConquistador, on November 26 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

View PostBeemann, on November 26 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Quote

I clearly remember a pre-closed beta stage when the bruiser was second only to the infiltrator in sheer effectiveness.
Really_ I just remember a lot of free kills for my Brawler and Assault
Perhaps I remember the bruiser being second to infiltrator as the class people loved complaining about as 'overpowered'. Either or.
Maybe if it also came behind the Sharpshooter :P
A lot of balance qq threads came down to what was most popular though tbh. Vulcan Brawler never got the recognition it deserved.... though the Vulcan itself caught people's attention
Posted Image

C-Class Swagger
Ballin' and Brawlin'
Cloakin' and Smokin'

#12 Conquistador

Conquistador

    Holy Roman Emperor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,176 posts
  • LocationAt the back of the North Wind

Posted November 26 2012 - 04:59 PM

View PostBeemann, on November 26 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

View PostConquistador, on November 26 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

View PostBeemann, on November 26 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Quote

I clearly remember a pre-closed beta stage when the bruiser was second only to the infiltrator in sheer effectiveness.
Really_ I just remember a lot of free kills for my Brawler and Assault
Perhaps I remember the bruiser being second to infiltrator as the class people loved complaining about as 'overpowered'. Either or.
Maybe if it also came behind the Sharpshooter :P
A lot of balance qq threads came down to what was most popular though tbh. Vulcan Brawler never got the recognition it deserved.... though the Vulcan itself caught people's attention
I thought SS QQ was a mostly closed beta phenomenon_ Bruiser was last seen before the first closed beta.
As stated previously, perception is a powerful thing. Vulcan has never really been right in the hands of the assault and berserker, because of their ability and speed, respectively. But it's always been a defining characteristic of the bruiser, so I'm hoping they buff it to manageable levels.
Posted Image

#13 JuiceBox

JuiceBox

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 469 posts

Posted November 26 2012 - 05:15 PM

Lets not forget .. HE Mines can't be detonated anymore either.

#14 Conquistador

Conquistador

    Holy Roman Emperor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,176 posts
  • LocationAt the back of the North Wind

Posted November 26 2012 - 05:20 PM

View PostJuiceBox, on November 26 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Lets not forget .. HE Mines can't be detonated anymore either.
I'm not sure what the context of this statement is, actually. What context does the HE grenade behaviour have in terms of the bruiser_
Posted Image

#15 ArnieF4440

ArnieF4440

    Muscles

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,198 posts
  • LocationDown Under/invading US west servers

Posted November 26 2012 - 05:30 PM

Yeah, +1 to this. Bruiser feels weak ... I love the looks of the default skin, but nerfing the vulcan to under 100 dps and increasing the heat rate just screws it up XD. Can't wait until its final balance, but it makes (at least for me) leveling the mech a bit difficult.
Posted Image
Me: Youtube | Drop Bears
Guides: Hawken Tips and Tricks | Fraps + Compression | Lag + Gaming
Rig: i7-920 + H50 | MSI X58A-GD45 | Corsair Dominator 12GB | 2x EVGA GTX 660TI SC+ 3GB | OCZ Vertex 2 120GB | Corsair HX1000 | CM HAF932

#16 nightsky

nightsky

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • LocationUnited States

Posted November 26 2012 - 06:13 PM

I've been maining the Bruiser a couple days after CB3 started, and I am generally in agreement with this post. The lack of a punchy weapon is really damping the fun of the class. Dumbfiring the rockets is not an acceptable substitute given the wild spread, long reload, and risk of splash damage up close. I'm almost always the assist leader in TDM games using the Bruiser largely due to the hit and run/opportunist tactics necessitated by the mid-long optimum range of the Hellfires and the low burst/sustained DPS from the SMC.

Softening people up with the rockets and then herding them into a turret or EMP blast and hoping for the best is about the best one can manage in a one-on-one fight. A class with a giant goddamned spinning minigun of death and a damage soak special ability shouldn't be cowering around corners and on rooftops from Scouts.

Assault - "Vae Victis" | Brawler - "Dominus" | Sharpshooter - "Memento Mori"

Bruiser - "Non Serviam" | Berserker - "Furia"

Posted Image

It's all good in the 'Hood.


#17 Dreizehn

Dreizehn

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 383 posts
  • LocationMalaysia

Posted November 26 2012 - 06:44 PM

The Bruiser is simply rather bad at direct confrontation, but it is an interesting 'zoning' mech. If they get close, you can rapidfire their face for a bit and try to cover-kite. Manage to catch them at long range and you can Hellfire them. There's no real optimal distance to fight a Bruiser at, but the same applies to itself, there's no optimal distance to fight with a Bruiser.

The Vulcan should be buffed so it has somewhat a fighting chance against ARs or SMCs, but not to the extent it can completely hold itself in close range against the Assault or Berserker classes. Unless you got some close range Hellfire-fu, softened them up from a distance already or are just that damn good at avoiding TOWs.

If it could just overwhelm anything at close-mid range with its Primary weapon and yet have long ranged capabilities with the Secondary - then it'd just be unbalanced.

#18 DM30

DM30

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 486 posts
  • LocationCanada, Eh_

Posted November 26 2012 - 06:56 PM

I find it interesting that the Vulcan Assault is being used as a comparison point, because hasn't it already been stated that the Assault was never meant to have the Vulcan, and that it was a mistake_ Unless the Vulcan still remains as the Assault's level 20 weapon (which I haven't gotten to myself and haven't seen on Assaults since beta 2), in which case never mind.

That being said, I personally find the Bruiser to be pretty effective in a team situation right now, actually. Granted, I do get a lot more assists than kills, but I've been able to dish out some pretty good punishment with the thing. (In fact in a match this morning I was outright asked how I was getting as many kills with the Bruiser as I was, not that I consider myself to be a very *good* player). However, in 1v1 situations I do agree that the Bruiser feels lacking in power. The only class I have regular success against 1v1 is the Assault (ironically, since the OP said that the Assault was currently much better than the Bruiser in terms of balance.)

So yeah, it could probably use a bit of help, but I wouldn't call it a "bad" mech per say.

#19 AsianJoyKiller

AsianJoyKiller

    Lithium Cellophane Unicorn Salad

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8,011 posts
  • LocationWI

Posted November 26 2012 - 06:58 PM

View PostDM30, on November 26 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

I find it interesting that the Vulcan Assault is being used as a comparison point, because hasn't it already been stated that the Assault was never meant to have the Vulcan, and that it was a mistake_ Unless the Vulcan still remains as the Assault's level 20 weapon (which I haven't gotten to myself and haven't seen on Assaults since beta 2), in which case never mind.
It's been confirmed. Assault still has the Vulcan.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#20 Dread_Lord_Pitr

Dread_Lord_Pitr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • LocationColumbia Internet

Posted November 26 2012 - 07:02 PM

Indeed : http://community.pla..._20#entry104462
and http://community.pla...eeds-some-work/
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. -George Orwell's Animal Farm
BEGIN Pitr's GEEK CODE BLOCK
GCS d_ s: a- C++++ UL++++ P+++ L++++ E--- W+(++) N++ o+++ K+++ w--- !O M-- V-- PS+++ PE+++ Y(++) PGP+++ t* 5(-) X R- tv- b- DI-- D- G++ e++ h* r% y_
END Pitr's GEEK CODE BLOCK





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Beta

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users