47 replies to this topic

[nightsky]

Dreizehn, on November 26 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

If it could just overwhelm anything at close-mid range with its Primary weapon and yet have long ranged capabilities with the Secondary - then it'd just be unbalanced.

A fair point. Sounds a lot like why the Rocketeer is currently everyone's favorite whipping boy. And a lot like why the Bruiser was the target of similar talk during the last round (or so I hear).

[DM30]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

DM30, on November 26 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

I find it interesting that the Vulcan Assault is being used as a comparison point, because hasn't it already been stated that the Assault was never meant to have the Vulcan, and that it was a mistake_ Unless the Vulcan still remains as the Assault's level 20 weapon (which I haven't gotten to myself and haven't seen on Assaults since beta 2), in which case never mind.

It's been confirmed. Assault still has the Vulcan.

Alright, well good to know. Thank you for clearing that up.

[QuanZen]

In Alpha testing the Bruiser was by far my favorite Mech. Now that it has been reintroduced in CB3 it is a shadow of it's former self to say the least. With the other two Class of Mechs- A+ C your choice of Mechs really depend on your playstyle... A Class you have the popular Infiltrator, Berserker, and the Scout. C Class you have the Rocketeer, Grenadier, and the Brawler. But when it comes to the B Class there are really only two logical choices in my book after testing a Bruiser to LvL 20 in this build...and that is between the Assault Mech, and the Sharpshooter. And by giving a LvL 20 unlock Point D Vulcan to the Assault Mech further narrows that choice to the Assault Mech even the the Point D Vulcan still needs some fine tuning.

Edited by QuanZen, November 26 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[Timber_Wolf]

Bruiser is far and away my favorite mech.  With the vulcan nerf, which was deserved, but maybe not quite this much, and the current values still aren't accurate, and the assault getting the vulcan, there's no reason to pick it.
Giving it a flak/mini-flak would be interesting, though.  But I'd drop the SMC for it instead of the vulcan.  The SMC is boring, and plenty of other mechs already use it.  Let the bruiser actually be able to bruise.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: level twenty unlocks are stupid and need to go away.

[Conquistador]

Watiu, on November 26 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

To me the Bruiser is a good hit-and-run mech, and that is how it is should be played...  Since overheating is a large issue (god it sucks) it's much easier to shoot Hellfires and then spray the Vulcan for a few seconds and get outta dodge and hope your teammates are there to cover you.

While I agree that the CURRENT state of the Bruiser encourages hit-and-run play, that's pretty much because it's the only viable alternative at the moment. The problem is that while you may fancy yourself a flanker capable of hit-and-run tactics, there are mechs out there for that role that are so much better (Berserker instantly comes to mind, and since it gets the Assault Rifle it can fire the moment it comes out of forward boost. In contrast, a bruiser will need to spin up its vulcan after boosting. Berserker > Bruiser for the hit and run role, palms down.)

It kills me (quite literally) that you're so incredibly dependent on teammates when in a bruiser. That's bad design if you build a mech that can't hold its own in a straight-up 1vs1 fight. That simply means everything hard-counters the bruiser, while it counters nothing.

Decoy101x, on November 26 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

I too agree with changing the level 20 reward for the assult. the vulcan should be only on one mech

Ideally, I wouldn't get rid of the vulcan. It's a defining feature of the Bruiser. Which is why I'm so keen that the Assault mech doesn't get it. If it does, there's really no point to playing bruiser anymore, as the assault will just do everything 100% better (except maybe soak up damage).

Jagdwyre, on November 26 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

I'd rather the Vulcan get buffed to relevance instead of just copping out and giving the Bruiser flak(although why not have both_)

The design of the Vulcan lends itself to the nature of what the bruiser "should" be able to do via it's ability. Which is to just stay in a direct fight and dish out the damage imo.

The Vulcan really needs to have it's power, because the weapon is in no way designed for hit-and-run, even the AR is better suited for such a thing given it has no spin up.

Agreed on all points. I never said I'd like them to replace the Vulcan with the Flak, just to add it to the alternative primaries list. A choice between mini-flak and vulcan would be a toss up for fast-firing high-damage throughput sustained fire weapons. And yes, I'd like to keep the vulcan as the primary weapon of choice.

Brawli, on November 26 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

As it stands the SMG is a better weapon than the vulcan in every facet, It loses out 2 damage per shot to the vulcan, but it has a higher RoF, slightly worse accuracy, better effective range, a ton less heat produced(11.3 on the vulcan vs 7.4 on the SMG) , and it has no wind up time.

I thought the vulcan was supposed to be like a minigun, and yet it isn't even the highest RoF in the game, even though the sound effect would lead you to believe that it is.  

After the damage comparison post I kinda thought it'd be clear how much work it needs, but it's been almost a week and nothing, pretty dissapointed.

The vulcan is clearly outclassed with the current state of the system. It's a mini-gun they forgot to water-cool.

Also, I had no idea that the SMG had a higher rate of fire than the Vulcan. That, sir, is INCREDIBLY ironic, given the circumstances.

I've got my fingers crossed for the vulcan buff.

nightsky, on November 26 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

I'm almost always the assist leader in TDM games using the Bruiser largely due to the hit and run/opportunist tactics necessitated by the mid-long optimum range of the Hellfires and the low burst/sustained DPS from the SMC.

I've nicknamed my Point D-vulcan the "Assist Cannon". You can obviously see why.

nightsky, on November 26 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Softening people up with the rockets and then herding them into a turret or EMP blast and hoping for the best is about the best one can manage in a one-on-one fight. A class with a giant goddamned spinning minigun of death and a damage soak special ability shouldn't be cowering around corners and on rooftops from Scouts.

I agree that bruiser is too dependent on items and/or teammates at the current time. And that's terrible. I'm hoping they rebuild the bruiser into the class it was meant to be, which is unparalleled death in open areas but disadvantaged in cover-heavy fights with burst damage opponents.

Dreizehn, on November 26 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

If it could just overwhelm anything at close-mid range with its Primary weapon and yet have long ranged capabilities with the Secondary - then it'd just be unbalanced.

Or it could be utilitarian and completely balanced. After all, at long range it's very easy to dodge hellfires so long as cover is nearby because your HUD warns you explicitly when they're fired. The whole deficit to the vulcan lands on spin-up time, which the devs can't seem to perfect. This spin-up should punish Bruisers in matchups with burst damage mechs like the infiltrator because you can duck in and out of cover and the bruiser can't deal jack. I feel the vulcan should totally tear up anything at close-mid range but ONLY if there's no cover around. This is similar to the concept of the TF2 heavy weapons class, which tears up things in open terrain but you can always corner-rocket with soldier. The bruiser should likewise fall into the roles of area-denial and suppression.

DM30, on November 26 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

That being said, I personally find the Bruiser to be pretty effective in a team situation right now, actually. Granted, I do get a lot more assists than kills, but I've been able to dish out some pretty good punishment with the thing. (In fact in a match this morning I was outright asked how I was getting as many kills with the Bruiser as I was, not that I consider myself to be a very *good* player). However, in 1v1 situations I do agree that the Bruiser feels lacking in power. The only class I have regular success against 1v1 is the Assault (ironically, since the OP said that the Assault was currently much better than the Bruiser in terms of balance.)

So yeah, it could probably use a bit of help, but I wouldn't call it a "bad" mech per say.

I never said it was a bad mech. I think the bruiser is gorgeous from a conceptual standpoint... on paper. In implementation it just gets outclassed extremely quickly.

It is, currently, the most heavily synergistic mech of the lot. It's so heavily dependent on either items (e.g. turret) or teammates for survival, working in a lone bruiser is tantamount to suicide. The bruiser doesn't currently feel like it can carry its own weight, and therein lies the problem. It can easily feel like it holds the team back, actually.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

DM30, on November 26 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

I find it interesting that the Vulcan Assault is being used as a comparison point, because hasn't it already been stated that the Assault was never meant to have the Vulcan, and that it was a mistake_ Unless the Vulcan still remains as the Assault's level 20 weapon (which I haven't gotten to myself and haven't seen on Assaults since beta 2), in which case never mind.

It's been confirmed. Assault still has the Vulcan.

Kill me. Kill me now.

Edited by Conquistador, November 26 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[Dreizehn]

Conquistador, on November 26 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

Or it could be utilitarian and completely balanced. After all, at long range it's very easy to dodge hellfires so long as cover is nearby because your HUD warns you explicitly when they're fired. The whole deficit to the vulcan lands on spin-up time, which the devs can't seem to perfect. This spin-up should punish Bruisers in matchups with burst damage mechs like the infiltrator because you can duck in and out of cover and the bruiser can't deal jack. I feel the vulcan should totally tear up anything at close-mid range but ONLY if there's no cover around. This is similar to the concept of the TF2 heavy weapons class, which tears up things in open terrain but you can always corner-rocket with soldier. The bruiser should likewise fall into the roles of area-denial and suppression.

I basically don't want the Vulcan to be as powerful as a Primary and Secondary weapon combined. Besides some spinup time, its not inherently that difficult to use even - rapid fire hosing, not that punishing on misses And just general prediction of where and when enemies will show up, you can spinup ahead of time and let rip to little delay. Sure its pretty unresponsive when you don't have the initiative, but just about anybody is relatively screwed in those circumstances. You can also sorta slap the trigger a bit to reduce spinup time if you think something is breaking out soon.

While it should be devastating close range, enough to outhose the SMC and AR, it shouldn't approach Flak territory.

Edited by Dreizehn, November 27 2012 - 12:26 AM.

[3Jane]

Vulcan overheat is good now, but the damage is really really pathetic. Otherwise I like the class. maybe if lock-on was like 0.25-0.5 quicker would help a bit.

Definitely agree with removing Vulcan from Assault.

[ConsterMonster]

+1 to vulcan needing buff - it just isnt right that the ROF of SMC is technically a little bit higher when it makes a noise like it does (at least according to garage, can any1 confirm that's accurate_)

[Karaipantsu]

I'd like to see a more persistant lock-on effect.  One of my favorite tactics is to pop out, lock on the hellfires, and duck back under cover firing them around the corner.  It's the same basic idea of an Assault or Zerker using cover to pound enemies with TOW's, but more fun because it's like grenade billiards.  The problem is rotating too far off center drops lock, and that fuzzy bunny is annoying.

Losing lock after firing is perfectly fine.  But when I'm locked, I'd like to stay locked as long as I'm even sort of facing someone.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Conquistador, on November 26 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Say what you will about its design and current implementation, but I clearly remember a pre-closed beta stage when the bruiser was second only to the infiltrator in sheer effectiveness.

1020 health Vulcan Brawler.
Come at me bro.

​I'm all for getting the Bruiser back to fighting weight FYI.
Just thought that the previous Bruiser was the least threatening mechs.

[Dackstrus]

Agreed. This is really the first time i've tried playing bruiser. And it figures, i automatically specced into heat reduction, and still feel like i can't kill much, Do a hideous amount of damage to someone_ Not really. FEEL like i should_ yes. Least before overheating.

I personally would go for the added damage, OR a tighter firing cone.

[PlagueDoctor]

I remember back in mmphhmhh when Bruiser got SA and the Miniflak. Having that kind of option would be nice so you could choose between long range support (SA) mid line fighter (vulcan,smc) in front line burst (miniflak) But the core of the problem lies in the Vulcan. Its hard to do hit-and-run when it takes a second to spin up the main gun.

However, on my adventures to level 20 bruiser, I noticed that even though the gun heats up super fast, The bruiser is good at softening up targets for burstier mechs to take on. In addition, the bruiser is excellent at picking off targets that are trying to get away. Except for AJK. He's too fast.

[Jugger_Grimrod]

Pretty new all around and way new to the Bruiser.  Would be nice if the spec. ability was a bit more powerful.  It just doesn't seem to be overly effective.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Jugger_Grimrod, on November 27 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Pretty new all around and way new to the Bruiser.  Would be nice if the spec. ability was a bit more powerful.  It just doesn't seem to be overly effective.

Should read, special ability doesn't seem to do anything.
It's about as useful as tossing Fuzzy Bunnies at the enemy Mechs to distract them.

Edited by Dread_Lord_Pitr, November 27 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[PiVoR]

Bruiser works well as long range support with Helfires, Vulcan is last resort against A mechs that come too close, dont even bother using it for anything else. Still being forced to controll your bursts to prevent overheat against A is kinda wrong, or maybe A burst is just too big.
Also i would like to see Bruiser having Seeker as lvl20 unlock =).

[Conquistador]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 27 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Conquistador, on November 26 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Say what you will about its design and current implementation, but I clearly remember a pre-closed beta stage when the bruiser was second only to the infiltrator in sheer effectiveness.

1020 health Vulcan Brawler.
Come at me bro.

​I'm all for getting the Bruiser back to fighting weight FYI.
Just thought that the previous Bruiser was the least threatening mechs.

Oh yeah! Now I remember why I said the Bruiser was so damn effective. I recall following your build in pre-beta stages, back when HP was through the roof. I ended up with a much more mobile c-class mech with a decent special ability, which was why it was so good at the time.

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 27 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Jugger_Grimrod, on November 27 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Pretty new all around and way new to the Bruiser.  Would be nice if the spec. ability was a bit more powerful.  It just doesn't seem to be overly effective.

Should read, special ability doesn't seem to do anything.
It's about as useful as tossing Fuzzy Bunnies at the enemy Mechs to distract them.

I wouldn't mind a buff to the special ability. I've experienced some tangible use of the ability but it's not enough to make the difference. I'll add this recommendation to the first post.

PiVoR, on November 27 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Bruiser works well as long range support with Helfires, Vulcan is last resort against A mechs that come too close, dont even bother using it for anything else. Still being forced to controll your bursts to prevent overheat against A is kinda wrong, or maybe A burst is just too big.
Also i would like to see Bruiser having Seeker as lvl20 unlock =).

I'm not too sure about giving Bruiser seeker, because the last thing we need is a smaller, more mobile rocketeer. That being said, the Vulcan SHOULDN'T be designed as an emergency gun or as an assist cannon. It deserves better, being the only real minigun analog in the game. I do agree they need to buff heat management to acceptable levels, but hey, that's the whole point of this thread.

[Kai_Kitamura]

I've been maining the bruiser since the CBE3 started and it does feel really weak. The few times I actually do dominate the battlefield make me feel like it's because the other side was (laughably) bad, rather than me being good (to contrast, my Brawler romps in CBE2 always felt awesome).

The crux of the matter seems to be the overnerfed vulcan and the ability which doesn't make that much difference. Or any difference.

So yeah.

[Snoof]

I've already posted a topic about the bruises getting "bruised" with the nerf bat at the start of this beta, quit reposting my opinions

[flimsy]

I'm not sure this thread is well oriented to reality. I see more Bruisers that any other mech class in games, mostly because hellfire missiles, despite the nerf, are still incredibly powerful. They do a lot of damage, from long range, and they're incredibly hard to dodge. From what I can tell, the missile warning on the target mech actually goes off after the missiles have been launched, which means that in a lot of cases you get a few milliseconds of warning before you get a facefull.

I don't have a problem with a vulcan buff, but hellfire missiles need another nerf to lock time and seeking.

[Conquistador]

maschas, on November 28 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'm not sure this thread is well oriented to reality. I see more Bruisers that any other mech class in games, mostly because hellfire missiles, despite the nerf, are still incredibly powerful. They do a lot of damage, from long range, and they're incredibly hard to dodge. From what I can tell, the missile warning on the target mech actually goes off after the missiles have been launched, which means that in a lot of cases you get a few milliseconds of warning before you get a facefull.

I don't have a problem with a vulcan buff, but hellfire missiles need another nerf to lock time and seeking.

I'm certain you're entitled to your own opinions about the hellfire, but in my experience they're not as broken as you think. I could, technically, explain... but I think Beemann covered it fairly well.

Beemann, on November 26 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

You mean the idea that concerns only hellfire, and doesn't promote seeker use at all_
Y'know, the secondary that's inconsistent, requires a full lock, can be 90% dodged without cover, and has a pretty normal firerate for the secondary_ The one that can't be spammed to "cover a retreat"_
Yeah that one

I'm getting conflicting views on hellfires, but since I didn't ask for them to be changed in this thread, perhaps this is the wrong thread to discuss hellfire balance. I will, however, say that smart players seem to be able to dodge hellfires with almost no effort.

Regardless of Hellfires, bruiser seems to be currently made or broken by the Vulcan, so I'm glad we agree on that much, at least.

Edited by Conquistador, November 28 2012 - 06:21 PM.