117 replies to this topic

[SystemiK]

Clearly I've been doing it all wrong.  Excellent info in this thread.

[Avlaen]

fwip, on December 18 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

h0B0, on December 18 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

However, DM is all about having more kills than anyone else. If you do not repair in DM you are effectively feeding kills. And making it easier for them to reach the first place.

True, but feeding a kill to 1/11th of the opposition is much less damaging to your chances than in TDM.

keep in mind staying alive will also keep your kill streak going longer meaning more exp meaning your further up on the board

Edited by Avlaen, December 18 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[h0B0]

Okay people time to re read the thread.

Hawken rounds up stats. So .16% defense gets rounded up to 1%. why waste 3 points when a single point will be just as effective.

[Tetrastar]

Your saying it rounds up no matter what_  .16% is a long way from 1%. Just want to make sure i read that right. where did u find this out_

[h0B0]

Its a known fact that it rounds up.

I tested the tow.

With 1 point in the def optimization i went from 158 to 157 damage. 0.16% of 158 = .25.

I am guessing this might be terribly efficient when using the SMC or AR as it might increase your damage by 1 per bullet.

Also if heat and RoF work the same way this is definitively a great advantage.

[Avlaen]

this is definately interesting and wierd.

[RedVan]

100% agree with movement optimization.  Without it, the mechs are extremely slow and easy to hit.  IMO they should just make the movement upgrades the basic movement of the game, and come up with a new tree.

[h0B0]

h0B0, on December 18 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Its a known fact that it rounds up.

I tested the tow.

With 1 point in the def optimization i went from 158 to 157 damage. 0.16% of 158 = .25.

I am guessing this might be terribly efficient when using the SMC or AR as it might increase your damage by 1 per bullet.

Also if heat and RoF work the same way this is definitively a great advantage.

After significant testing. there is no difference between 1 point in increased damage AR damage and no point.

Also - heat generation(defence) is insignificant wether you place 0-1-2 points for sustained AR fire.

[SystemiK]

I get what people are saying about the defense tree being generally worthless and after reading the thread it makes sense to me why.  But tonight is the third time I've rolled over into the movement / minor offense tree and each time for the rest of the night I've struggled to keep up with my usual level of performance (i'm running stock CR-T at lvl 21).  Possibly it's in my head but 3 times now speccing out of offense seems to have jacked up my gameplay a bit.  Seems that with the re-spec I am always dying just before taking the kill.  I'm kinda conflicted over this.

Placebo effect_  Am i just psyching myself out over the change_

[h0B0]

SystemiK, on December 18 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

I get what people are saying about the defense tree being generally worthless and after reading the thread it makes sense to me why.  But tonight is the third time I've rolled over into the movement / minor offense tree and each time for the rest of the night I've struggled to keep up with my usual level of performance (i'm running stock CR-T at lvl 21).  Possibly it's in my head but 3 times now speccing out of offense seems to have jacked up my gameplay a bit.  Seems that with the re-spec I am always dying just before taking the kill.  I'm kinda conflicted over this.

Placebo effect_  Am i just psyching myself out over the change_

Maybe. It is definitively affecting your "performance". But to what degree_

There is no skill involved in having a flat % based advantage.
However it takes a lot of skill to get to a point where you know your dodge cooldown instinctively and master movement to its full potential.

I am not calling you unskilled, just saying that it might take some time to get used to, or to develop the neccesary skills to make it worthwhile.

Edit: Maybe if you shared you previous layout i could judge what the major changes have been

Edited by h0B0, December 18 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[akitha]

Yea that's great idea.

[Sicarius_X]

So put 1 point into defense tree, got it. Now does the 1 point give me a 1 damage reduction off of bullets_

[SystemiK]

h0B0, on December 18 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Edit: Maybe if you shared you previous layout i could judge what the major changes have been

CR-T / Stock Internals +HE Grenade
Offense: 18
3 - increase all weapon damage
3 - primary fire rate
3 - increase item damage
1 - increase special weapon fire rate
3- decrease damage taken from items
2- increase damage output / bullet type
2- increase damage output / explosive type
1- Increase all damage (Edit: whoops, forgot to include this one)
0- reduce radar sig
0- decrease weapon heating
0- decrease overheat recovery time

2- dodge speed
1- increase acceleration
21 points total (level 21 mech)



I can only offer my own observation (FWIW) but at least for my play style on the CR-T mech, running 3 trial runs of a build split between the mobility and offensive trees (similar to what your OP suggested) was definitely noticeable and welcome as far as movement, but I absolutely felt that my game went down hill right away each time I ditched that heavy offense build. My perception match after match was that damage output had been nerfed to the point that I was losing kills (kinda hard to quantify a perception though).  Anyhow, I'm curious if any others have noticed anything similar after jumping entirely out of a mostly pure offensive build for the other trees.

I may be a total i.d.i.o.t here, but it sure seems like I'm getting some real benefit out of that offensive build vs. a mobility/defense combo.  From what I'm seeing here though, a lot of people seem pretty much in agreement that offense is worthless.  Probably people more qualified to crunch down the utility of stats like these than I am....

I should probably run a mobility build for a week or two instead of the 6 or so hours or so that I have, and then switch back to offense later for a more realistic comparison.  I dunno stats like these are a tricky thing, once you add a human element they clearly won't always add up the same for everyone.

Edited by SystemiK, December 19 2012 - 08:29 PM.

[h0B0]

@systemic

I think you forgot to mention you put 1 point into the top one in offensive ;P.

Alrtie so 1,5 seconds off the tow is a significant improvement and will give you a definitive advantage in battle.

Furthermore as my testing has shown 0.25 damaged reduced is rounded to 1. By adding all the possible damage increases you get from the offensive optimization i have come to a max of 2.48%. As far as i know the AR deals 17 DMG. Considering we know that .25 is rounded to 1 we can safely assume that full offensive optimizations will increase the damage on your AR by 1 which is a significant 5% increase.

Thank you for sharing your experience. The math seems to back up your impressions.

Will edit the OP.

@sicarius X

I have not tested that yet. but i would assume it does not considering my data on the AR and the offensive optimization that does the opposite.

[Ollie]

I ran the numbers for the grenadier:


Rev-GL:  70 damage, RoF 1.2 (84 dps)
Gren: 150 damage, RoF 0.3

Primary damage boost: .48% (or rounded up to 1_) = 73.36 or 77
Primary weapon RoF: .99% (rounded up to 1_) = 1.31
Increase special weapon RoF: 1.5%/sec (rounds up to 2_) .345 or .36
Increase explosive damage: .50% (rounds up to 1_) 77.028 / 157.5 (no rounding) or 84.7 / 165 (rounding)
Increase all damage: 1.5% (rounds up to 2_)  88.58 / 172/5 (no rounding) or 101.64 / 189.75 (rounding)

Rev-G: 88.58 * 1.31 = 116.04dps
or 101.64 * 1.31 = 133.15dps

Gren: 172.5 * .36 = 62.1dps
or 189.75 * .36 = 68.31dps

BUT

Alpha strike increases by 18.58 + 22.5 = 41.08 or 31.64 + 39.75 = 79.5

Overall damage: 172.5 + 88.58 = 261.08 or 101.64 + 189.75 = 291.39

For lower damage (not rounded):
BUT this changes a class A (500) into a 2-shot instead of a 3-shot.
A class B (675) changes from a 4 shot to a 3 shot
A class C (800) remains a 4 shot for all.

I think part of the issue we're not considering with the offensive is the HP breaks for different classes.  I also haven't included the HE charge I'm carrying (item boost/explosive boost/all damage boost) for extra alpha strike.

Edited by Ollie, December 19 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[h0B0]

Ollie, on December 19 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

I ran the numbers for the grenadier:


Rev-GL:  70 damage, RoF 1.2 (84 dps)
Gren: 150 damage, RoF 0.3

Primary damage boost: .48% (or rounded up to 1_) = 73.36 or 77 1% of 70 = .7 rounded up =1 =>71/152
Primary weapon RoF: .99% (rounded up to 1_) = 1.31 Possibly, i am not familiar with the RoF mechanic, it is fairly hard to calculate by ones self.
Increase special weapon RoF: 1.5%/sec (rounds up to 2_) .345 or .36 I just did a test and The cooldown for the tow with and without the optimization = 4 seconds.
Increase explosive damage: .50% (rounds up to 1_) 77.028 / 157.5 (no rounding) or 84.7 / 165 (rounding) 71/152
Increase all damage: 1.5% (rounds up to 2_)  88.58 / 172/5 (no rounding) or 101.64 / 189.75 (rounding) I would think that these are cumulative with previous damage boost so 2.48% rounded up to 3% =>73/155

Rev-G: 88.58 * 1.31 = 116.04dps
or 101.64 * 1.31 = 133.15dps

Gren: 172.5 * .36 = 62.1dps
or 189.75 * .36 = 68.31dps

BUT

Alpha strike increases by 18.58 + 22.5 = 41.08 or 31.64 + 39.75 = 79.5 8

Overall damage: 172.5 + 88.58 = 261.08 or 101.64 + 189.75 = 291.39

For lower damage (not rounded):
BUT this changes a class A (500) into a 2-shot instead of a 3-shot.
A class B (675) changes from a 4 shot to a 3 shot
A class C (800) remains a 4 shot for all.

I think part of the issue we're not considering with the offensive is the HP breaks for different classes.  I also haven't included the HE charge I'm carrying (item boost/explosive boost/all damage boost) for extra alpha strike.

Your math is wrong and confusing.

Edited by h0B0, December 19 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Ollie]

Sorry, I started this early in the morning.  I appreciate the fixes.  I was also fairly confused about which bit gets rounded up.  I should do less math early in the morning.

RoF info I got here: http://hawken.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons -- you're right, I'm making an assumption that RoF is measured in units/second.  It might not be.  I found your TOW test interesting -- the GL secondary seems sped up, but I don't have a decent means of measurement

I think there might be an error in how the tooltips are being presented or the assumption being made in our math as well.  I can definitely tell a difference in kill speed when I'm op'd full offense for grenadier.

Also, there's an assumption being made that %s are simply additive (1% + 1% = 2% of base) rather than compounded (base * 1% = modified * 1%).  You've done more testing than I have -- can you confirm this, or is it just an assumption as well_  I think the latter might be a possible reason why folks spec'ing offense "feel" differently.  Maybe it's all placebo, but I'm not terribad, I swear.  Just terribad at the maths.

Anyhow, I'd love to test this if anyone has the time or inclination.

[h0B0]

Ollie, on December 19 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

http://hawken.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

Dem numbers are off.

I suggest waiting on AJK's math for the testing we have done it will be more accurate than dated tooltips that were possibly wrong.

[Ollie]

h0B0, on December 19 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Dem numbers are off.

I suggest waiting on AJK's math for the testing we have done it will be more accurate than dated tooltips that were possibly wrong.

Sweet, inaccurate tooltips are awesome.  Any idea when the math's going to hit stores_  The additive vs. compounded issue would be particularly interesting if he's already got that info.

Is he just video recording and counting frames then_

[h0B0]

Ollie, on December 19 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Is he just video recording and counting frames then_

Basically. we haven't tested optimizations yet. math should be available before the cockpit broadcast so the casters can discuss it.