128 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

probiner, on January 02 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on January 01 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

probiner, on January 01 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

But my argument stands. A Scout will deal a bigger ammount of damage first than the Brawler even if it dies and the Brawler survives and eventually deals some more. It relies on killing first and stalking weakend mechs while dogding they're shots. If they're advance fails they either die or slide out on time ( behind cover or friendly lines or alternative routes, repairs and put pressure on again).

What_
No.
No it doesn't. Not at all.
The most powerful alpha strike combo a Scout could carry is the Flak/TOW which is the exact same loadout that the Brawler carries. That means it has the same damage output of a Brawler.

Like I said before, being more mobile does not mean that they can do more damage. A-Class mech's weapons are just as powerful as the the weapons on both other classes meaning that their initial damage output is no greater than any other mechs.

You keep failing to understand that a Brawler can't stalk a Scout but the inverse can happen. Hence Scout having more alpha strikes...

Except they have the same number of alpha strikes, because they have the same amount of time in LOS

[ReachH]

probiner, on January 02 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on January 01 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

probiner, on January 01 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

But my argument stands. A Scout will deal a bigger ammount of damage first than the Brawler even if it dies and the Brawler survives and eventually deals some more. It relies on killing first and stalking weakend mechs while dogding they're shots. If they're advance fails they either die or slide out on time ( behind cover or friendly lines or alternative routes, repairs and put pressure on again).

What_
No.
No it doesn't. Not at all.
The most powerful alpha strike combo a Scout could carry is the Flak/TOW which is the exact same loadout that the Brawler carries. That means it has the same damage output of a Brawler.

Like I said before, being more mobile does not mean that they can do more damage. A-Class mech's weapons are just as powerful as the the weapons on both other classes meaning that their initial damage output is no greater than any other mechs.

You keep failing to understand that a Brawler can't stalk a Scout but the inverse can happen. Hence Scout having more alpha strikes...

You fail to understand that while yes, the faster mech dictates when engagements happen, its the defender who dictates who gets to shoot when. A scout who overextends beyond cover without some kind of mind game, will eat a proxy TOW and Flak Cannon at worst. *edit* The only time this isn't important, is when the scout has a health advantage.

Edited by ReachH, January 02 2013 - 12:34 AM.

[probiner]

Beeman, LOS_
I sincerly don't see what is the problem. What is being discussed here is an ability for the SS only. Funny enough everyone as something similar up close with EMP.
At least being for a Sharpshooter only this would have much more flavour.

Be it crippling mobility or increasing damage from incoming fire.

Heck do both... Make a slider from A to C
A: 20% ability affects incoming damage, 80% mobility
B: 50% incoming damage, 50% mobility
C: 80% incoming damage, 20% mobility.

All I know is that a SS would be able to hit vitals of a mech. And since Sabot is fine for you all...

Cheers

Edited by probiner, January 02 2013 - 12:48 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

probiner, on January 02 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

You keep failing to understand that a Brawler can't stalk a Scout but the inverse can happen. Hence Scout having more alpha strikes...

To picture it better.
Put a Brawler and a Scout in Square Room with a thick square column (enough to conceal 5 mech behind) in the middle. How's gonna get more hits and kills_

If the Scout can see the Brawler, the Brawler can see the Scout.
Meaning that the Scout doesn't magically get more free hits on the Brawler.

The Scout's superior mobility does not mean that it automatically can get the drop on the Brawler.
The Scout's mobility does not guarantee that they'll get the first hit, even if they force they are on the attack.

Mobility does not give A-Classes some mystical ability to do more damage more often than C-Classes.

[probiner]

Wrong, if they do the same damage (obviously not talking of stats), A-classes would fold all the time, since they have less armor... Which is definitely not the case.

Cheers

Edited by probiner, January 02 2013 - 01:23 AM.

[Guiotine]

probiner, on January 02 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

Wrong, if they do the same damage (obviously not talking of stats), A-classes would fold all the time, since they have less armor... Which is definitely not the case.

Cheers

That is because they use their MOBILITYto dance around the enemy, causing them to miss more often, or to dash in and out of cover. Imho, between a well played scout and a well played Brawler with the same loadout (Flak + TOW), it would be a toss up.

[Karaipantsu]

ReachH, on January 02 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

The HE Charge can also be cooked while moving (slightly related).

Can it_  I thought holding the release just extended its launch distance.

[Cypherhalo]

tortuousGoddess, on December 30 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

From what I've seen, a lot of community members are in agreement about the Sharpshooter's Ballistic Barrage ability: It just doesn't fit the role that the SS plays. While it's great on the Berzerker, which is a mech that plays with the goal of dealing high amounts of damage quickly, on a more passive mech like the Sharpshooter, it feels unwieldly, unsatisfying, and it rarely seems to have more than a minimal effect. The SS simply doesn't have the tools to take advantage of it. What I'd like to see is this ability replaced with something more suited to giving supporting fire; the Sharpshooter's primary goal. I propose the following ability, or something similar, be used to this end:

Ability: Crippling Assault
Effect: For the next 5 seconds, your attacks cause the target to be unable to thrust or dodge for 2 seconds.

Alternatively:

Ability: Crippling Assault
Effect: For the next 5 seconds, your attacks reduce the target's dodge, thrust, and walking speeds by 35% for 2 seconds.

This ability would serve the purpose of locking down opponents for your allies, giving them the perfect chance to make a decisive strike, while simultaneously giving the Sharpshooter a window of opportunity to land successive shots and keep the effect going. I feel that an ability like this would be much more gratifying to use and more applicable to the Sharpshooter's unique role.

Well I kind of like the sound of an ability like that.  I don't know, I've played around with the SS but struggle to use him well.  I didn't find his ballistic barrage ability very useful though.  All that usually happened was I would shoot the enemy and they would boost away.  Something like this would probably have helped me get more kills.  I'll offer just that as my two cents because I really haven't played a lot in the SS.  I hope to play more with him eventually as I usually like fighting at long-range and might change my tune once I get more experience playing the SS.  I have to say he's just hard in this game because everyone is so mobile and there is so much cover.

[TwiceDead]

Cypherhalo, on January 02 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Well I kind of like the sound of an ability like that.  I don't know, I've played around with the SS but struggle to use him well.  I didn't find his ballistic barrage ability very useful though.  All that usually happened was I would shoot the enemy and they would boost away.  Something like this would probably have helped me get more kills.  I'll offer just that as my two cents because I really haven't played a lot in the SS.  I hope to play more with him eventually as I usually like fighting at long-range and might change my tune once I get more experience playing the SS.  I have to say he's just hard in this game because everyone is so mobile and there is so much cover.

The SS has a different kind of skill-ceiling than the rest of the mechs in this game. I don't quite agree that they are hard to hit because they are so mobile, since they really are not that mobile. Even if they run, you've successfully managed to force the opponent to disengage from combat, leaving one less gun pointed on your friendlies, so if you make them run it's not usually a bad thing.

Hang in there though, the SS really shines once you get the hang of it.

[lawlking]

ReachH, on January 02 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on January 02 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

h0B0 tested it.
It tested legit.

The 5% unzoomed, or the "Press Middle Mouse to zoom; this increases damage and precision"_

The "Press Middle Mouse to zoom", AsianJoyKiller stats show that zooming increases damage by 8%.

[probiner]

Guiotine, on January 02 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

probiner, on January 02 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

Wrong, if they do the same damage (obviously not talking of stats), A-classes would fold all the time, since they have less armor... Which is definitely not the case.

Cheers

That is because they use their MOBILITYto dance around the enemy, causing them to miss more often, or to dash in and out of cover. Imho, between a well played scout and a well played Brawler with the same loadout (Flak + TOW), it would be a toss up.

Yes and C-mechs rely on ARMOR the larger output that A-mechs deliver, stick around longer and get to kill something.

Buy why does a Sharpshooter needs a Fuzzy Bunny ability to attack Armor, while the high mobility guys are the ones that present more challange to them_ Unlike say a Berserker, that deals with opponents with bigger armor than itself.

We are talking here of a SHARPSHOOTER ability not Scout or Brawler, but Ballistic Barriage that it shares with Zerk.

As it stands, not only SS is a relative bad mecha (imagine a team of SS, against a team of Zerks, yeah...) and also does not follow expectations about a class like it:
- All weapons are for long range.
- The most damaging weapon deals less damage than all other secondaries and is the second most slow.
- Can't put up a fight against close encounters, not fast enough to run, no explosive damage enough to kill first. (yeah sure with an aimbot it must be fun...)
- It's ability attacks Armor when what he needs to keep a distance is attack mobility. (fine, do the mobility/armor slider for dif classes) the weapons should attack Armor by themselves. What the ability should reflect are CRITICAL HITS that a sharpshooter could handle that a guy with the common automatic rifile coulnd't deliver, hitting vital components of the mech, since it pierces, disabling them.

But you guys say it's fine... I just need to learn to play in the fuzzy bunny niche. Why does it have to be a niche and not on pair with other mechs from the get go and work as expected_
At least make the nice flavourful and relevant, not a potato.

Cheers

Edited by probiner, January 03 2013 - 06:05 AM.

[TwiceDead]

probiner, on January 03 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Yes and C-mechs rely on ARMOR the larger output that A-mechs deliver, stick around longer and get to kill something.

Buy why does a Sharpshooter needs a Fuzzy Bunny ability to attack Armor, while the high mobility guys are the ones that present more challange to them_ Unlike say a Berserker, that deals with opponents with bigger armor than itself.

We are talking here of a SHARPSHOOTER ability not Scout or Brawler, but Ballistic Barriage that it shares with Zerk.

As it stands, not only SS is a relative bad mecha (imagine a team of SS, against a team of Zerks, yeah...) and also does not follow expectations about a class like it:
- All weapons are for long range.
- The most damaging weapon deals less damage than all other secondaries and is the second most slow.
- Can't put up a fight against close encounters, not fast enough to run, no explosive damage enough to kill first. (yeah sure with an aimbot it must be fun...)
- It's ability attacks Armor when what he needs to keep a distance is attack mobility. (fine, do the mobility/armor slider for dif classes) the weapons should attack Armor by themselves. What the ability should reflect are CRITICAL HITS that a sharpshooter could handle that a guy with the common automatic rifile coulnd't deliver, hitting vital components of the mech, since it pierces, disabling them.

But you guys say it's fine... I just need to learn to play in the fuzzy bunny niche. Why does it have to be a niche and not on pair with other mechs from the get go and work as expected_
At least make the nice flavourful and relevant, not a potato.

Cheers

...

Quote

- All weapons are for long range.

And short range. Depending on you.

Quote

- The most damaging weapon deals less damage than all other secondaries and is the second most slow.

Yet is the fastest projectile in the game considering it has NO TRAVELTIME WHATSOEVER. Hit-scan works like that.

Quote

- Can't put up a fight against close encounters, not fast enough to run, no explosive damage enough to kill first. (yeah sure with an aimbot it must be fun...)

I must be a natural Aimbot then since I am having pretty much fun in CQC...

Quote

- It's ability attacks Armor when what he needs to keep a distance is attack mobility. (fine, do the mobility/armor slider for dif classes) the weapons should attack Armor by themselves. What the ability should reflect are CRITICAL HITS that a sharpshooter could handle that a guy with the common automatic rifile coulnd't deliver, hitting vital components of the mech, since it pierces, disabling them.

I laugh. Thanks.
So if I am good enough to land a hit on the robots crotch (won't be hard), they will basically stop moving_ "Disabling them"_ Really_ So it's an EMP then_ Also have you tried sniping with an assault rifle_ It's pretty fuzzy bunny if you compare that to the slug rifle or sabot rifle. Sure, the weapons attack armor, but with the current ability it will attack MORE armor than usual, and it hurts the opponent and they will notice it if you can consistently land your shots.

You do realize that if you balance the game according to the worst players, the better ones will break the game, right_
Keeping distance from the opponent is YOUR job, if you let them get to you that's your fault, or your teams fault. When playing an SS you have to take a lot of things into consideration. Where can I be of most use_ When can I use my ability_ Where should I run should things go bad_ What can I put between me and my opponent_ ETC. This is just what the majority of the forums think that play SS efficiently. Personally I play how I want, but that doesn't mean that their words are full of bull. Guiotine has a good guide somewhere, check it out.

Once you get better at the SS, it's a monster. All you need is a bit more time to polish your SS skills and the opponents will go "OMGF------SS!".

Edited by TwiceDead, January 03 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[Karaipantsu]

Defensive much_  It doesn't help your already poor argument that you can't seem to get a proper sentence out, or back it up with any evidence of any kind.  C-classes don't "rely" on their armor to kill things.  Last I checked, you couldn't armor someone to death.  Weapons, and how you use them, are the core of the game.

The fact of the matter is that the non-homogeneous nature of a few mechs in this game are the character necessary to keep it interesting.  If every class was good at every range with all weapons, what fun would that be_  Slug and Sabot are best used at range, and it's up to you as the pilot to keep your targets in that optimal range.  This doesn't mean they can't be effective elsewhere if you've got the skill. I've tried to run down a number of Sharpies only to be sniped on the way there and gunned down in close range around cover by an excellent pilot.  I play the SS pretty often, and I know I don't have the skill to do that.  Doesn't mean I don't like the class.

[probiner]

Pinning adjectives doesn't account much here, I'm very sorry.

I want proof you read my posts... please rewrite them for me in your own words... No, so don't use that common around here silly argument "I want proof", doesn't stick.

This is just simple deduction:
Mech 1 has more armor and less mobility
Mech 2 has less armor and more mobility
If I hypothetically they are balanced who outputs more damage_ Mech 2, derp!

So if a Zerk as an ability to attack Armor, why doesn't a SS has an ability to emulate it giving shots on vital areas of a mecha, attacking it's mobility_ Argument_ What_ Come closer_

I'm not there yet, consistently, but I have had good scores and been on top with SS, the issue is the class not standing on it's own and it's ability does not fit.

Plus it would be nice if every mech had it's own ability. Ballistic Barriage and Slug are just a poor excuse to lower Sabot's damage. There's problems enough turning around with the mech, with no lag compensation and FPS dropdown on zoom to try to sell this as a nice skilled class.

It's healthy there are classes with steeper leaning curves, so that a player can experience different levels of difficulty and playstyle. That's doesn't mean they can't be better designed. I'm not the one defensive about evolving things and having my mobility affected.

Edited by probiner, January 03 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Karaipantsu]

probiner, on January 03 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Pinning adjectives doesn't account much here, I'm very sorry.

I want proof you read my posts... please rewrite them for me in your own words... No, so don't use that common around here silly argument "I want proof", doesn't stick.

How could you want proof I read something.  I wouldn't be responding if I didn't.  Anyway, you want a rewrite in my own words_  Fine.

probiner, on January 03 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

This is just simple deduction:
Mech 1 has more armor and less mobility
Mech 2 has less armor and more mobility
If I hypothetically they are balanced who outputs more damage_ Duhh..._

So if a Zerk as an ability to attack Armor, why doesn't a SS has an ability to emulate it giving shots on vital areas of a mecha, attacking it's mobility_ Argument_ What_ Come closer_

C-class are big immobile armored fatties.
A-class are quick nimble paper towels.
If they're balanced, neither should put out more damage, because that's what balance is.

The weapons on an A-class chassis put out the same amount of damage as the ones on a C-class.  Period.  There is no arguing that.  Neither is capable of firing more or more accurate TOW missiles than the other.  Skill, practice, and timing are what make one better than the other in the hands of various pilots.

Additionally, the Zerker's ability doesn't "attack armor".  It's a damage boost.  Admittedly, this fits in with its role and name, so it does make sense that it has the BB ability.

probiner, on January 03 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

I'm not there yet, consistently, but I have had good scores and been on top with SS, the issue is the class not standing on it's own and it's ability does not fit.

Plus it would be nice if every mech had it's own ability. Ballistic Barriage and Slug are just a poor excuse to lower Sabot's damage. There's problems enough turning around with the mech, with no lag compensation and FPS dropdown on zoom to try to sell this as a nice skilled class.

I play Sharpshooter, but don't think it works as a solo unit, and don't like the ability because its silly.

The Sharpshooter is support role.  It's not meant to work "on its own" for an extended period of time.  If you play it in its role, it's excellent.

It WOULD be nice if every class had its own ability, but they don't.  The statement that "Ballistic Barriage and Slug are just a poor excuse to lower Sabot's damage" is patent nonsense.  Sabot already does a ton of damage with ridiculous accuracy at its optimal range, and the Slug Rifle is the perfect pair for it.  SA Hawkins is a ridiculous weapon currently, and needs some serious work.  And the comment on turning around, lag compensation, and all that other fuzzy bunny is the same thing every other class has to deal with in the same proportions, so that's hardly endemic to the sharpie.

probiner, on January 03 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

I'm not the one defensive about evolving things and having my mobility affected.

Except you totally were.  You called TwiceDead an onanist for no reason.  Also, Adventure Time rocks, and Jake laugh is appropriate for any situation.

The fact of the matter is that the devs made the Sharpshooter to fulfill a specific role, and it does that well.  Trying to take it out of its role is supposed to be difficult and require a high level of skill.  It's like trying to play a Sniper Brawler with a Hawkins.  It's doable.. but it's tricky and mostly ridiculous out of its element.

[TwiceDead]

probiner, on January 03 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

This is just simple deduction:
Mech 1 has more armor and less mobility
Mech 2 has less armor and more mobility
If I hypothetically they are balanced who outputs more damage_ Mech 2, derp!

How does mech 2 output more damage..._ Please explain again, last time you were vague.  

Quote

So if a Zerk as an ability to attack Armor, why doesn't a SS has an ability to emulate it giving shots on vital areas of a mecha, attacking it's mobility_ Argument_ What_ Come closer_

And what if someone is able to hit that area consistently_ Is the targeted mech just going to sit down and take it_ From miles away_ With no chance to get away_ Sounds balanced to you_

Quote

I'm not there yet, consistently, but I have had good scores and been on top with SS, the issue is the class not standing on it's own and it's ability does not fit.

You will get there eventually, and when you do even you will see that this suggestion is beyond ridiculous.

Quote

Plus it would be nice if every mech had it's own ability. Ballistic Barriage and Slug are just a poor excuse to lower Sabot's damage. There's problems enough turning around with the mech, with no lag compensation and FPS dropdown on zoom to try to sell this as a nice skilled class.

Something I can agree with.

Edited by TwiceDead, January 03 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[probiner]

Though crowd... Let me try again... Grab a chair.

Effective Damage Output is the total of damage done to an opponent in which weapons' DPS are factored by the ability to hit opponents effectively. Doesn't really matter if you have a Gatling Sniper rifle if other conditions make you not able to hit the targets.

In this game, such ability/condition is mainly mobility (other than skill...), since you can dodge your opponent investments, while connecting yours, even if both have the same weapons with the same DPS.

So, Effective Damage Output = DPS * Mobilty.
(Being Mobility = Speed * What the map allows you to)

Example
Mecha 1 = Type C (Brawler)
Mecha 2 = Type A (Scout)

Balance = 0
Mecha2 - Mecha1 = 0

Mecha2 = Mecha1

Armor2 + EDO2 = Armor1 + EDO1

500 + EDO2 = 850 + EDO1

EDO2 = EDO1 + 350

So IF Balance does exist, the Effective Damage Output of Mecha 2 will be bigger FOR SURE to hike Mecha1 bigger Armor.

Now the question is how much does actually Mobility factors in the Effective Damage Output_
My estimate is that Mobility factors it more than Balance, giving unbalanced Mecha2 advantage.

Hence me agreeing with this thread to attack Mobility. Even though Balistic Barriage does increase DPS, that inscreases EDO, I think attacking Mobility is now much more effective given the circumstances of the game that apparently won't resiliently change (maps typology, SS not being Type A, lag, lower damage Sniper cannon, etc).

Cheers

Edited by probiner, January 03 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[ReachH]

probiner, on January 03 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Though crowd...

Effective Damage Output is factor that multiplies weapons DPS by the ability to hit opponents effectively. Doesn't really matter if you have a Gatling Sniper rifle if other conditions make you not able to hit the targets.

In this game, such condition is mobility (just like tanks), since you can dodge your opponent investments, while connecting yours, even if both have the same weapons with the same DPS.

So, Effective Damage Output = DPS * Mobilty.

Example
Mecha 1 = Type C (Brawler)
Mecha 2 = Type A (Scout)

Balance = 0
Mecha2 - Mecha1 = 0

Mecha2 = Mecha1

Armor2 + EDO2 = Armor1 + EDO1

500 + EDO2 = 850 + EDO1

EDO2 = EDO1 + 850 - 500

EDO2 = EDO1 + 350

EDO2 = D

So IF Balance does exist, the Effective Damage Output of Mecha 2 will be bigger FOR SURE to hike Mecha1 bigger Armor.

Now the question is how much does actually Mobility in the Effective Damage output_
My estimate is that Mobility factors it more than Balance, giving Mecha2 advantage.

Hence me agreeing with this thread to attack Mobility.

Cheers

uh, your missing a few dynamic FPS variables in your RPG equation buddy. But a step in the right direction I think

Edited by ReachH, January 03 2013 - 03:22 PM.

[probiner]

Carry on... what am I missing_And for the love of Fuzzy Bunnies, why quote if your post is just next to mine_...

Quote

And the comment on turning around, lag compensation, and all that other fuzzy bunny is the same thing every other class has to deal with in the same proportions, so that's hardly endemic to the sharpie.

Of course it is, because since SS is more hit-fail-die will of course suffer more from it than a hitscan automated macinhegun. That's obivous...

Questions:

- 6 good Sharpshooter pilots play all 4 maps versus 6 good Berseker/Scout, who wins_

- More mobilty does not not only make you faster, but also also make your fuel last longer and recover faster_

Edited by probiner, January 03 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Karaipantsu]

Actually, 6 good Sharpies would destroy 6 good zerkers.  By the time the zerkers closed distance, there'd only be, at most, 4 of them left.  Except maybe on Origin.  That's pretty well laid out for the zerkers to flank.