127 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

HawkEyE_, on February 23 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 22 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Ahh, I see what you mean (though isn't using a macro kinda like cheating_ To me it is like a lag-switch or a turbo-button, like on the old GC controllers ). I updated the OP and stated that the data does not take distance or flight time into consideration, just the raw damage each mech can do.

Also, I like your idea, but I want to add to it. What if instead of only marking 1 mech, it marked all mechs in your LoS_ Otherwise, the ability would not be much better than a radar scaner. (I will add your idea to the poll with your permission )

You cant stop people from using macros like you can lag switches and aimbots. Not only is it a convenience option, but you also have to consider the fact that you`re dealing with functions that come standard on most gaming mice

Additionally, I think you should have to hit the target to add them. The tradeoff should be the length of the target marking

Ok, I'll add it to the poll. Do you think the name Tracer Shot is good_ Also, do you think it should show the targets health_ Or would that be too much_

Sure, and honestly the details of it are pretty open to discussion

[Houruck]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

Are you telling me that's not too powerful_

It needs to be powerfull.
I know it is not the best idea to compare it to meatware FPS games, but a sniper weapon's main purpose is to cause huge damage or even an instant kill in one shot. You need to use your ability and both of your weapons, followed by another Slug shot to archieve this. I know it is not so hard but there are no separate "body part" hitboxes here so you can not do an FPS Doug style BOOM HEADSHOT with one button.

[Beemann]

Houruck, on February 23 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I know it is not the best idea to compare it to meatware FPS games

So don't do it
End of story

[idolische]

Houruck, why does it need to be powerful_ In meatware FPS explosive is instakill, pistol clip is enough to kill too and the shotgun is not a peashooter for sure. In Hawken you need to pepper enemy for some seconds and don't miss to kill with any primary. Why should Sabot and slug be so favored while other weapons are not_

[Akrium]

Hmmm pages of fuzzy bunny. Some people thinking their ideas are best while others thinking theirs are best.

My opinion is that the SS ability needs toned down. The ability itself isn't bad, but it needs to do less or do it far less often. It is far too easy to kill as a SS currently with mechs the size of texas roaming the field. The one class that used to be the bane of the SS (A class) is now just easy prey and laughable to fight against unless there are more than 1.

This one ability has changed the entire game play of hawken. Being instant gibbed by someone is NOT a good game mechanic, even if you think snipers should do lots of damage. It is about game balance, not super fun powers to the ability user and crappy experience to the receiving end user. No amount of skill can stop a hit scan weapon from killing you fast if used properly. Sorry.. that is the issue with hit scan weapons combined with a super ability.

Also, this thread seriously needs to get off the train about people's skills, strawmanning and posting videos of play. The only video I saw that was relevant was AJK's video of how quickly the damage is outputted from the SS while using the Power Shot ability. The fact that the mech was standing still does not change the fact that it can do that damage. It can still supply that same damage to a C class mech and tear him to shreds even easier. Remember, there are more than just A class mechs playing this game that have to deal with SS's.

[TwiceDead]

To be fair the reason people post videos to prove their "awesomeness" is because the good old community has a habit of making long posts that in the end can be summed up by a simple word.

L2P

I believe they are getting sick of hearing that.

[Culex]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Yet you're suggesting taking an alpha strike from a SS. That too is a situation you've already put the receiving mech in. One shot is all it takes for a mech to realize to not stand in LoS with a SS, and to shoot a secondary back which is more likely to hit on the SS than any other mech, while they are scoped. You're seriously undermining how necessary the scope is. It is a both a good thing and a bad thing.

An alpha strike from an SS isn't something you avoid, it's something an SS succeeds at or fails at. Additionally, what you're dealing with is two instantaneous opening shots that, in the video AJK posted, dealt 381 damage total
A Flak and TOW combo will, at most, deal 305 in perfectly optimal conditions, and cannot pull off even close to that at range simultaneously (especially considering the fact that you have to hit with the TOW directly)
As well, after that initial hit, you have to take two shots from the flak with optimal or near optimal damage for the ambush to succeed, compared with the 1 at any range 1:1 accuracy slug shot that the SS needs after the initial strike

First of all, that video is testing a very specific instance of the SS doing damage fully optimized with offensive tree points and internals. The video was made to show the most damage the SS can achieve. AJK has essentially cut out all the sacrifices the SS had to make by foregoing mobility/defensive tech tree points as well as other internal drawbacks. The video doesn't show the strength of the A-mech. It doesn't display the A-mech's ability to get away, come back, and refire on the SS. It doesn't display the increased walk speed. No, all we're looking at is a perfect scenario for the SS (drawbacks being hidden).

That being said, the math you posted is skewed in favor of the SS. Using the data from the SK spreadsheet, without any internal/tech tree points, the Flak + TOW = 305. The Sabot and Slug powered shot = 337, not 381. If you're going to compare numbers, compare them on the same level. The SS would need need two slug shots, not one. A normal double shot = 246, for when the SS doesn't have the ability available and the primary and secondary is off cooldown.

You're also not factoring in the following: ease of hitting the Flak from close range, the scout's fuel special ability (since this is an A-mech that has flak/tow), ease of landing direct tow shots when compared to fighting other mechs, ease of manually detonating tows that are going to miss and giving aoe splash damage, increased ease of circling around the SS while peppering it with damage, ease of the scout to run behind line of sight and not attempt to fight a battle not in it's favor followed by a repair.

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Are you telling me the SS will never get caught in CQC_ They will; unless they choose to camp at which point they will not be benefiting their team very much once the enemies realize their position and call it out. Once they are caught in CQC, they are favored to lose. Yes, they can win, but on equal grounds they should lose. SS's are also the easiest mechs in the game to catch by surprise. Their scope requires precious time to enter, and having to unscope, and rescope and establish los with the enemy is more than just "point and click."

In CQC you can rush your opponent and automatically hit them (especially useful against explosives users... which is everyone who isn't an SS or Reaper). Additionally, the time you take going after a sharpshooter is time that their team can use to harass or kill you, or accomplish objectives
So you've got a class who can hit you from a spot where you can't retaliate, and retaliating means moving out of position, overextending, and putting yourself and teammates at greater risk

You can only afford to rush your opponent if you're at advantage in terms of a good amount of health, their secondary is on cooldown, face hug them to get a guaranteed sabot, and don't have other enemies present near the scene. Doing this on a point in a team game with enemy players present is suicide. In most cases you have to let them get away and hope they are going to appear in LoS (which they shouldn't) or look for a new target. It's much easier for an A-mech to dip out and get a reset than you're letting on.

If you have regret to go and chase and finish an SS, chances are they were probably far away from the objective. So your team technically has advantage in that you should have one extra body on the point than theirs. This sets the SS's team back in terms of opportunities to regain the point; once an SS's position is known they are called out and they would have to spend precious time of their to find a new attack angle (a much greater waste of time). If you do take a SS from the back, you're most likely also in a great position to flank his allies and catch them by surprise. You've effectively made them the meat of a sandwich, and now they have to decide to let off the point and put their attention into fighting you (while your allies pound them from the back) or continue fighting your allies while you pelt them from the back, hard.

So you can retaliate. If you choose not to, shooting TOWS or Hellfires at the SS will result in damage the SS will eventually be likely to take, and force them off their perch and repair, while your team has a numbers advantage on the point. Or your team can be more aware of the SS's positioning and render them almost useless by choosing to fight out of LoS. It's also incredibly easy for your allies and you to off-tank the shots when you do need to get in LoS, switch out and pick apart the SS's allies that are actually fighting to regain the point, and repair orb up out of LoS. This way you've basically taken the strength of the SS out of the equation, and made the allies of the SS rage for lack of support.

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Remember this is a team game. Not a solo 1v1 everyone starts off on opposite ends of the distance. You should eventually get shot by an SS, lol. You don't balance like we're playing 1v1 on an open-ended map. You balance by how effective the SS can be relative to their team on a consistent basis on more than one map.

And you don't think a 1 second TTK on an A mech is useful to a team_ Especially when you have at least another second or so to deal instant hit 100+ damage slug shots_

It's 2 additional slugs, 2 seconds (I am not buying into that offensive tree garbage at the cost of mobility). This is assuming the A-class sticks in LoS for 2 seconds, the SS isn't getting fired upon, the SS lands all 3
rounds (one double plus two single slugs). With dodges and ping differences and terrain LoS blockers, 2 seconds is a sufficient amount of time to boost out of LoS. I also find it extremely useful how an A-mech can repair out of LoS, relay this information to their team, and make the threat of the SS minimal. For the A-classes small amount of health, it has a smaller hitbox and greater speed.

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

As far as projectile shots are concerned, prediction is a powerful thing. Are you telling me it's hard to shoot a ToW around the area where you expect a mech to be or run to, and detonate it_ Even a non-tow, you shoot it, have COMPLETE view of your surroundings at the whole time (qq scope) and move and choose to detonate it if you want. Hitscan's effectiveness deteriorates rapidly the moment the enemy mech becomes aware where the SS is positioned.

You're dealing far less damage than the Slug or Sabot by relying on splash hits, and direct hits are FAR more difficult. Additionally, your ability to manoeuvre only matters in terms of timing, which means it doesn't matter to a hitscan user. If you decide to "dodge" a hitscan shot, you're attempting to predict the point of fire and preemptively move. The shooter on the other hand just has to have their cursor over you and click, as opposed to someone with a projectile weapon, who has to predict where you're going to be when the projectile moves out to where you are
Basically it's the reason why the EOC is so hard to use

Direct hits on an SS in scope are far more likely. 185 damage for direct, 145 damage from within 10 meters. This is basically free damage to the SS. Many experienced A-class users know the best way to fight is either to catch the SS by surprise, or whittle down their hp with direct hits (again, much easier to hit on SS's than other classes due to scope mechanic) or splash. After 2 easy to land ToW shots onto the SS (detonated or direct), they can risk staying in LoS long enough to net them the kill.

As far as dodging a hitscan shot, it's mind games. The turn radius/mouse movement on the scope is relatively lower; you're moving small amounts of distance on the screen should you choose to stay in scope. The A-mech can pop out of the side of the wall with a side-dash, shoot secondary, and side-dash back behind the wall. The time they remain in LoS exposed to the SS is extremely short (a second or less). To scope in (level 25 with the leveling zoom-in bonus acquired), this takes about half a second. The scenario where both are aware of each other starting behind cover can play out in the following ways:

• The SS stays scoped onto the edge of the wall where he suspects the A-mech to be. If the A-mech dodges into LoS, the SS has to manually track to that area and ends up missing the shot, because the A has already been able to dash back. The A-mech has already secured a hit on the SS. A: 1, SS: 0.
  
• The flipside is the A chooses to walk laterally into LoS and save the dodge, in which case the SS should land the shot. Then, SS: 1, A: 0.

• The SS starts unscoped near the edge of the wall, expecting the A to dodge that distance into LoS, and upon acquiring the visual model, the SS scopes in onto him, lands the shot. SS:1, A:0.
  
• The flipside: SS starts unscoped, the AA walks laterally into LoS, shoots secondary, while this is happening the SS is scoping in, the A dashes back into cover before the shots can hit. A:1, SS: 0.

The A-mech can just land two shots, close in on the SS, and the SS has to decide to repair and get jumped again, or fight an already losing battle. The A-mech needs to just win the mindgame once for the SS to waste his powershot ability.

Once he has done this, the SS now needs to land 2 sabots, and 3 slugs. The SS has already lost the HP buffer, and now is at the mercy of having lesser speed+larger hitbox, but still requires a greater focus on hitting his shots than the A, as well being more susceptible to taking splash/manual detonation shots from the A. In scope mode, the SS usually tends to stay confined to the area where he is at + to the side of him for the dodge, thus making an easier target. Everytime the A lands splash onto the SS, its a snowball effect pushing the SS into having lost the fight.

Prediction is just as much a factor with travel-time as it is with expecting where the enemy is going to appear (I'm talking about even a distance range of ~0-20 meters, not a lot-about the same distance of a side-dodge). Even so, the A still has the option of jumping above the wall, shooting, and coming back down (staying hovering would ensure the SS has enough time to get off a shot), or going around the other side of the wall and shooting from there. And the best thing is if the A-mech guesses wrong in the above situations and gets hit, it can always retreat, repair, and reset the fight.

The time it takes for visual acquisition of the target, plus scope-in, plus cursor hover/stabalization over mech, plus shot registering > dodge cooldown. Perfect Hitscan comes at the cost of being tied to scope (which is tied to zoom-in time, cut off of situational awareness, and decreased overall distance of mouse movement), and deserves more credit than just "point and click".

Edited by Culex, February 23 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Nept]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 23 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Here's the thing.
You're the one who decided to make it personal, by giving a rather condescending negative criticism that was uncalled for. Why was it uncalled for_ Because look at the chain of events.
7r1p claimed that Beemann and I are basing our opinions purely on theorycrafting, rather than actually having played SS. I was pointing out that I did in fact play SS at a competent level and that means that I'm basing my opinions on experience, not assumptions.
But for some reason, you decided to take an outdated video of mine and review it, basically telling me "you suck." And for what reason_
None that I can see, unless you were trying to discredit my stance based on my apparent skill, since you didn't bother to connect it to your "oversimplification" argument.
So you're either taking a needless jab at me or using the very logical fallacy (tu quoque) that you've accused me of.

It's common practice for people inexperienced and/or unskilled with particular weapons/classes/etc. to request nerfs or removals. Given yours and beemann's reluctance to acknowledge the challenges that accompany sharpshooting, trip's comments weren't unwarranted. And while you've displayed restraint while phrasing your latest post, your response to trip was worded as follows:

Quote

It's not like multiple great players have said I play a good SS publicly on the forums or anything...
Oh wait.

Objectively speaking, that's flippant phrasing which implies more than “competence” or “above average”. You shouldn't be surprised that my rebuttal reflected some of that flippancy. As for the 'why', well, it relates to trip's concerns that you're unable to analyze the sharpshooter properly – either for want of experience against strong opponents or for the aforementioned conflicts of interest. In other words, your abilities and experience with the sharpshooter are relevant to this discussion.

AsianJoyKiller, on February 23 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Despite the fact that I went out of my way to point out playing SS requires a knowledge of positioning and timing alongside the ability to aim, you decided to reduce and represent my argument as "point and click".
It's amazing that you claimed I was being disingenuous, when you pull actions like that, and portray my position as something so simple as "Sharpshooter is easy because it's just point and click" and then criticize me for not taking other factors into account.

I did not misrepresent your words. Here they are:

Quote

“There needs to be a tradeoff between skill and power, and at the moment, you can get a lot of power out of the SS for not a lot of skill .  . . Unless your telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing and the ability to place your crosshairs over a target requires an excessive amount of skill_”

That's oversimplification, plain and simple. It's not quite as bad as beemann's image recognition (and, to be fair, I said as much), but it's still silly oversimplification that ignores target speeds, dodges, cover, time-to-scope, the need to scope, ranges, opponent weaponry, and other elements – many of which have been brought up in previous posts. You're deliberately downplaying the skill required to sharpshoot against strong players; it is not simply “moderate knowledge of positioning, timing, and the ability to place your crosshairs over a target”.

Honestly, do you really believe that “the ability to place your crosshairs over a target” is so different from “point and click”_ And the oversimplification's not undone by “moderate knowledge of positioning and timing” because the phrasing's beyond vague. Don't pretend that you've described the various factors that make sharpshooting difficult.

It's disingenuous.


*Edit*  As an aside, it's interesting to see the immediate dismissal of "fragvids" or "killreels" - ostensibly for consistency's sake.  Certainly, if you're attempting to perceive skill through k/d ratios, then these videos demonstrate little.  It's not the number of kills you should be looking at, though.  Anyone who has experienced fast-paced fps' at competitive levels knows to evaluate skill through the surety, speed, and accuracy of mouse movements, the player's reaction times, and tactical soundness/imagination.  And while tactics aren't always demonstrable through edited video, the other factors are easily evaluated.

I could put an average player into Unreal Tourny, give them a thousand recording hours, and never see shots such as those - except if they were to emerge through actual improvement.  You simply can't fluke mouse control and reaction time (and yes, you're more than welcome to give it a whirl).  Perhaps you've been confused by Tribes MA montages, where the shooter's mouse movements are massively secondary to the disc explosions (against slow/floaty or fast/linear targets that don't require much mouse movement in the first place).  Or perhaps you've seen totalbiscuit's funny chivalry montage.

Regardless, that catchall, anti-fragvid attitude isn't very useful.  The conclusion that montages aren't representative of player skill holds only if the evaluators aren't experienced.

Here's another way to picture that point: Think of some particularly athletic and agile people that you know.  You needn't watch an entire floor routine, kata, game, or race to understand that they're athletic.  In fact, you'd perceive their athleticism almost immediately.  And the more experienced you were with a particular activity or sport, the less footage you'd need to assess skill and potential.

Give it some thought.

*Edit* Know you're working on a response, asian, but I can't wait around tonight.  Will take a look when I can.

Edited by Nept, February 23 2013 - 11:47 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Nept, on February 23 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

It's common practice for people inexperienced and/or unskilled with particular weapons/classes/etc. to request nerfs or removals. Given yours and beemann's reluctance to acknowledge the challenges that accompany sharpshooting, trip's comments weren't unwarranted.

Except they were.
It's obvious both Beemann and I aren't new kids on the block. One look at our profiles, and you can tell we've been around since Alpha. Do a minor bit of research into our post history, and you can see we don't talk out of our asses.

Quote

Objectively speaking, that's flippant phrasing which implies more than “competence” or “above average”. You shouldn't be surprised that my rebuttal reflected some of that flippancy. As for the 'why', well, it relates to trip's concerns that you're unable to analyze the sharpshooter properly – either for want of experience against strong opponents or for the aforementioned conflicts of interest. In other words, your abilities and experience with the sharpshooter are relevant to this discussion.

Actually, if you go by several definitions of good, including Merriam-Webster's, "good" means being adequate, competent, and satisfactory. Imply that "good" means something more than "better than average" is really stretching it bro. You also might want to check up on the definition of "flippancy". Your "rebuttal" wasn't flippant. It was rude and condescending, not inappropriately lighthearted.

It's also interesting that you claim I used a tu quoque fallacy, but now your making a claim that personal skill takes part in the ability to analyze the mechanics. If that's true, then my asking that others prove their competence when they ask about mine isn't fallacious, but in fact necessary if one is supposed to speak with any authority on the matter.

Quote

- semantics -

Blah, blah, blah, you don't like how I define things and imply that several factors can't fall under a general category. So you've created a semantic argument that I'm oversimplifying in order to discredit my position. You claim I'm not considering everything involved, and list off a large number of individual factors to show off everything I'm forgetting. Except I'm not. Many of the factors can be grouped together and looked at as a general principle.

Quote

You're deliberately downplaying the skill required to sharpshoot against strong players; it is not simply “moderate knowledge of positioning, timing, and the ability to place your crosshairs over a target”.

Oh look. Another misrepresentation.


TL:DR
Stop arguing sematics and making overly complex ad hominem arguments and start discussing the topic of the thread. 6 pages in, and you have yet to actually comment on Power Shot, it's mechanics and whether or not it needs tweaking.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, February 24 2013 - 12:05 AM.

[ReachH]

Can't be bothered to read the ongoing debate, but I will chime in that it is ridiculously easy to hit both the salvo and the follow-up slug against A mechs. This has been a staple SS skill since before CB; if you search the SS tips threads you will see the term 'follow up slug' on practically every occasion.

And as AJK has already demonstrated, a kitted SS with offensive optimizations can kill an a mech within the duration of powershot. Heck, he can even miss the follow up completely and he still has another chance (two with a macro).

Illustration
Situation 1, open CQC. Simply quickscope at the the end of a dodge. Follow up at your leisure. Even repeated chained L-boosts have points where a shot can be made, very possible with the current turn cap in HAWKEN. Takes a bit of practice, but with refinement it is fairly consistent.

Situation 2, target is popping in/out of cover. This is simply a matter of knowing where to aim. Aiming at the side of the target that is closest to cover will help you nail a shot, even if he reacts and dodges into cover. You can re position for a slug where you anticipate he will run to, or you can approach if he doesn't move/waits it out.

Situation 3, target is out in the open, moving, whatever. Like I said, even an infiltrator who immediately pops his cloak and starts L-R- boosting like mad is hit-able. If he moves for cover, he's dead, if he jukes and jives, he's not moving to cover. It takes an extremely acute sense of timing to evade a practiced SS, and the better he is, the more 'small corrections' he will apply to his aiming/leading to make it near impossible.

Closing
Only time will tell where the balance lies with top tier players (I have not witnessed or used the SS enough to tell yet), but for now its looking a lot like the SS is too powerful. There already might not even be any margin playing against the best SS's, and they will only get better with time.

Basically what it boils down to is a a slightly OP ability on a mech that has the highest skill ceiling, that also scales very well with skill. This however, is not the problem. The problem is simply that other mechs have no equally-viable counter options. Yes HEAT Scout has splash, but the margin for error on the scout pilots end is much finer (and the scaling with refinement is comparable in my mind, but with a lower skill ceiling). And SS pilots can become so godly as to not even allow any margin. And if we are comparing same-team, the scout would have to rely on the opponent team clumping in order to match the utility that the SS provides. Result=potential IMBA.

Edited by ReachH, February 24 2013 - 12:50 AM.

[Akaon]

Perhaps a simpler question would be better: play a game with SS without using the ability (tempting as it may be), do you feel it's weak_ Especially curious what the people who say SS is fine think about this.

I think it performs very very well without using the ability at all. I think it outperforms most mechs at most distances as most mechs tend to excel at a specific distance, but the SS has no such problem.

Also, great post ReachH .

[RedVan]

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I never said that the TTK was acceptable.  Just, if you want to make a point with a video, at least have it be realistic.

You're still missing the point...
OP claimed you can't kill an A-Class without an item in less than 2 seconds. Tell me RedVan, what do you see happening in that video_

Quote for me where he says "You can't kill an A-Class without an item in less than 2 seconds", because I just read the OP 3 times, and I guess I missed it all three times.

MY POINT on the other hand, is that who gives a fuzzy bunny if you can kill an A class mech in 2 seconds while they just stand there.  Because, last I checked, people aren't just standing around out on the battle field, and if an A class mech is dying in 2 seconds, they're obviously a noob.

I mean, what if HF did exactly enough damage to 1 shot a C class standing still_  But then lets say 80% of the salvo misses as soon as the mech takes a step.  Would it make more sense to show a video of a C class getting 1 shot while they stand there, which essentially never happens in a game, or would it make more sense to show how the weapon plays out in a match where people are using their movement properly_

So again, show me a practical application please, thanks.

Still waiting on the answer to the bold.

And even if he did say it and it was edited out after you "proved" him wrong, I'd still like to see a video of you doing anything even close to that against an actual target.

Because like I said, that video is meaningless.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

I voted for all options, because retarded poll is retarded...
And i missed the option to just go back to the SS' previous ability (Damage Amp), which was fine.

[Major_Victory]

The main thing I've learned in this post is my beloved Reaper should be called the Spitball, with its crummy DPS...lol maybe give it the Powershot ability! ;p

[Beemann]

@Redvan
Read the first page of the thread
>Note the damage numbers given in the original post (which I later talked to the OP about)
>Note the post denying the ability to kill a target in even 2 seconds

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on February 24 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Still waiting on the answer to the bold.

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Also w/o the Det, you can't kill a class A mech in 2 seconds.

Quote

And even if he did say it and it was edited out after you "proved" him wrong, I'd still like to see a video of you doing anything even close to that against an actual target.

Because like I said, that video is meaningless.

That video is not meaningless.
It proves that you can inflict 500+ damage in 1 second.
It's not meaningless because nobody has full health at all times.
It's not meaningless because you can't always stick to cover.
It's not meaningless because you can't always react in 1 second.
It's not meaningless because you're not always 1v1 a SS.
It's not meaningless because the first salvo is enough to force a retreat.
It's not meaningless because you don't have to kill the target in order for Power Shot to be useful.

That last one is extremely important to consider when looking at why Power Shot is overpowered, because it's not just about killing an enemy. There's utility in forcing them to retreat, making them a softer target for allies, making a target go down faster, etc.
Power Shot has practical utility beyond being lethal.

[Culex]

Anyone want to reply to my previous wall of text post (response to beemann)_

And AJK I've already stated a few times in my previous posts that it's 2 seconds, 2 slugs to react to unless you want to gimp your mobility (which isn't being shown in your video). An SS that specs the way you're backing will fare much worse in multiple enemy situations, cqc, and kiting.

Every other point you've listed means the SS can be effective; more than just support and relying on a teammate to finish them off.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Culex, on February 24 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

And AJK I've already stated a few times in my previous posts that it's 2 seconds, 2 slugs to react to unless you want to gimp your mobility (which isn't being shown in your video). An SS that specs the way you're backing will fare much worse in multiple enemy situations, cqc, and kiting.

Just because you can't pull it off, doesn't mean others can't.
I've been running a full offense build in Hawken Pub IRC scrims, and so far, it's been working just fine.

Quote

Every other point you've listed means the SS can be effective; more than just support and relying on a teammate to finish them off.

Except it was already effective, and didn't need to rely on teammates to finish off targets.
And why does the SS need to be a killer class, rather than a support class_ It wouldn't be the only mech geared like that, and in fact, it's much better suited to that role than some of the others.

[Beemann]

Culex, on February 23 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

First of all, that video is testing a very specific instance of the SS doing damage fully optimized with offensive tree points and internals. The video was made to show the most damage the SS can achieve. AJK has essentially cut out all the sacrifices the SS had to make by foregoing mobility/defensive tech tree points as well as other internal drawbacks. The video doesn't show the strength of the A-mech. It doesn't display the A-mech's ability to get away, come back, and refire on the SS. It doesn't display the increased walk speed. No, all we're looking at is a perfect scenario for the SS (drawbacks being hidden).

The strength of the A mech is being able to dodge and lengthening the TTK to 1.5 seconds
Huge difference eh_

Culex, on February 23 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

That being said, the math you posted is skewed in favor of the SS. Using the data from the SK spreadsheet, without any internal/tech tree points, the Flak + TOW = 305. The Sabot and Slug powered shot = 337, not 381. If you're going to compare numbers, compare them on the same level. The SS would need need two slug shots, not one. A normal double shot = 246, for when the SS doesn't have the ability available and the primary and secondary is off cooldown.

So we should balance around LESS than what the SS should do, and not the MOST they can do_
And this isn't about the base damage of the Slug+Sabot, the issue is with what you can stack your damage up to when using PS, which is what the subject of this thread is

Culex, on February 23 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

You're also not factoring in the following: ease of hitting the Flak from close range, the scout's fuel special ability (since this is an A-mech that has flak/tow), ease of landing direct tow shots when compared to fighting other mechs, ease of manually detonating tows that are going to miss and giving aoe splash damage, increased ease of circling around the SS while peppering it with damage, ease of the scout to run behind line of sight and not attempt to fight a battle not in it's favor followed by a repair.

Manual detonation = less damage, hitscan shots are easier to direct hit with than projectiles, and 1:1 accuracy weapons are easier to do max damage with than weapons with spread
And if someone is thrown off by you circle strafing them, then they're not the balance standard player

Culex, on February 23 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

You can only afford to rush your opponent if you're at advantage in terms of a good amount of health, their secondary is on cooldown, face hug them to get a guaranteed sabot, and don't have other enemies present near the scene. Doing this on a point in a team game with enemy players present is suicide. In most cases you have to let them get away and hope they are going to appear in LoS (which they shouldn't) or look for a new target. It's much easier for an A-mech to dip out and get a reset than you're letting on.

..so against an A mech then_ And if you rush them and they fire their secondary, they take damage too, so ultimately if you can take full damage away from your opponent, or you can take full damage and cause damage to your opponent at the same time, why would you ever pick the former_
And why are you trying to change this to a situation where an SS is fighting a whole team_ That's nonsense

Culex, on February 23 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

If you have regret to go and chase and finish an SS, chances are they were probably far away from the objective. So your team technically has advantage in that you should have one extra body on the point than theirs. This sets the SS's team back in terms of opportunities to regain the point; once an SS's position is known they are called out and they would have to spend precious time of their to find a new attack angle (a much greater waste of time). If you do take a SS from the back, you're most likely also in a great position to flank his allies and catch them by surprise. You've effectively made them the meat of a sandwich, and now they have to decide to let off the point and put their attention into fighting you (while your allies pound them from the back) or continue fighting your allies while you pelt them from the back, hard.

So the people they killed or maimed before you spotted and marked them magically reappear_ The ability for an SS to peg targets before the point in question means nothing_ Additionally, you suggesting that the SS is okay based on maps that are not balanced_

Culex, on February 23 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

So you can retaliate. If you choose not to, shooting TOWS or Hellfires at the SS will result in damage the SS will eventually be likely to take, and force them off their perch and repair, while your team has a numbers advantage on the point. Or your team can be more aware of the SS's positioning and render them almost useless by choosing to fight out of LoS. It's also incredibly easy for your allies and you to off-tank the shots when you do need to get in LoS, switch out and pick apart the SS's allies that are actually fighting to regain the point, and repair orb up out of LoS. This way you've basically taken the strength of the SS out of the equation, and made the allies of the SS rage for lack of support.

So we're now basing balance on sharpshooters who stand perfectly still and take incoming fire like a champ_ Okay

Culex, on February 23 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

It's 2 additional slugs, 2 seconds (I am not buying into that offensive tree garbage at the cost of mobility). This is assuming the A-class sticks in LoS for 2 seconds, the SS isn't getting fired upon, the SS lands all 3
rounds (one double plus two single slugs). With dodges and ping differences and terrain LoS blockers, 2 seconds is a sufficient amount of time to boost out of LoS. I also find it extremely useful how an A-mech can repair out of LoS, relay this information to their team, and make the threat of the SS minimal. For the A-classes small amount of health, it has a smaller hitbox and greater speed.

So we base balance on your personal loadout_
That doesn't seem very smart

Culex, on February 23 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Direct hits on an SS in scope are far more likely. 185 damage for direct, 145 damage from within 10 meters. This is basically free damage to the SS. Many experienced A-class users know the best way to fight is either to catch the SS by surprise, or whittle down their hp with direct hits (again, much easier to hit on SS's than other classes due to scope mechanic) or splash. After 2 easy to land ToW shots onto the SS (detonated or direct), they can risk staying in LoS long enough to net them the kill.

More likely != guaranteed. More likely != guaranteed damage
Additionally, time you spend firing is time you spend exposed, which is time you spend taking over 100 damage/second from slug shots, and over 200 damage from sabot shots every 5 seconds of fight time

Culex, on February 23 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

As far as dodging a hitscan shot, it's mind games.

It's prediction, which I already mentioned. However it's prediction on the part of the target, whereas projectile weapons require prediction on the part of the shooter as well

[Culex]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 24 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Culex, on February 24 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

And AJK I've already stated a few times in my previous posts that it's 2 seconds, 2 slugs to react to unless you want to gimp your mobility (which isn't being shown in your video). An SS that specs the way you're backing will fare much worse in multiple enemy situations, cqc, and kiting.

Just because you can't pull it off, doesn't mean others can't.
I've been running a full offense build in Hawken Pub IRC scrims, and so far, it's been working just fine.

Even if others can, they give up a lot of map movement, kiting, and utility towards your team. If someone wants to camp in one spot, this build is perfect for them. But for players that actually want to cap points and move around the map instead of hanging in the back, the cons outweigh the pros.

Not going to comment about your SS in the IRC; I'm just going to say that it is not my favored style of play.

AsianJoyKiller, on February 24 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Culex, on February 24 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Every other point you've listed means the SS can be effective; more than just support and relying on a teammate to finish them off.

Except it was already effective, and didn't need to rely on teammates to finish off targets.
And why does the SS need to be a killer class, rather than a support class_ It wouldn't be the only mech geared like that, and in fact, it's much better suited to that role than some of the others.

It is effective until good players actually pick up on your presence the first time you shoot them and choose to leave LoS and nullify your output, and create a numbers situation on the rest of your team in CQC. They off-tank the mechs on the front lines while limiting your shots, so you're not as useful as you would be with a CQC mech.

Great so let's have the SS be geared to kill players with at least less than half of their health. Other support mechs actually provide more presence than an SS by being able to damage without a direct LoS requirement, having an increased success chance of fighting on points and getting out alive when fighting multiple mechs, and being either more resilient to hold a point or faster to juggle them. I could just pick one of these mechs and prove a bigger asset to my team.

If you don't want it to be a killer class, then it's also not going to be a pretty viable mech in DM either (when A's run abound and everyone is on equal skill level). That's just a side note. With it being a purely support class, the point holds true though you're better off following another mech in who can clean up the pieces in a team game. And the problem of LoSing becomes readily clear when your teammate who needs to get on the point gets doubled and you're stuck waiting for a window to open or just rushing forward and fighting a less favored fight.

Edited by Culex, February 24 2013 - 05:22 PM.