127 replies to this topic

[Kerc_Kersa]

Beemann said:

1. Hitscan is, and always has been, easier than a projectile equivalent. In a max damage scenario (which was calculated wrong in the OP btw. hitscan damage starts at T=0s and ends and T=3s, the OP has it starting at T=1s), you'd be comparing a direct hit HEAT to a hit from a slug or sabot, and the frequency of said hits. You'd also have to consider the ease with which simultaneous hits can be made with both primary and secondary, as doing so with the HEAT and TOW is considerably harder

Thank you for pointing out that the damage is wrong (I was tired when I was doing the math :s). Also I am not sure I follow. Do you mean to say that I didn't take travel time into consideration_ Or do you mean that the hitscan weapons can fire 1 more time_ (please let me know so I can correct the OP ) The main point of the damage part of the post was not to show what a player can do in 3 seconds, it was to show what each mech can do. The SS isn't OP unless it uses the PS ability and I myself think it needs to be changed. I am curious btw, what do you think the ability should be changed to_

[Kerc_Kersa]

Tankero, on February 22 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Hi folks,

I'm a class A zerker pilot. I've even come across a few of the folks that are here and I wanted to toss in my two cents.

First off, and it seems that this has been discussed, but it may bear repeating, the TTK chart in the OP is off the mark, since it doesn't take into account the travelling time or fire spread of the weapons in question.

Raw numbers without some rigorous statistical data are meaningless. Another thing it doesn't take into account is that normal defensive maneuvers don't prevent or mitigate damage for any of the SS weapons as they do for everything else.  In order for a pilot to successfully dodge a sniper shot, they have to dodge just as the player at the other end of the line is pressing the trigger. Half a second too early or too late equates to 50% or more of an A-class' health evaporating.

Now, the other issue is that SS weapons can be use effectively at any range. If they were effective only at long range, they wouldn't be a problem. There'd be a rock to their scissors, but sniper weapons are just as deadly in a knife fight as they are from across the map. The powershot ability exacerbates this problem, but isn't at the core of it.

How is this problem solved while not killing the class_ Perhaps this could be a compromise: Scoped weapons could have two firing modes - scoped and unscoped. Unscoped fire would be quicker, but doing slightly lower DPS (meaning less damage per shot, dividing the usual amount per the new number of shots per minute) and scoped where the weapons operate as normal. While scoped, the mech could be pinned to the ground where it stands. With reduced awareness and zero mobility, the SS pilot would be making a conscientiousness choice to trade these two resources.

Yes I have already been told that the OP is wrong (thanks for also letting me know ) the main point of OP, however was to show what each mech can do damage wise (from raw damage just leaving the guns). I will add that to the OP to help clarify things. Well to be fair, the SS is this games sniper so it does damage from long range, but it also shouldn't be helpless in CQC (otherwise, players just have to rush the SS each time the SS peaks out to fire). Also, your idea has merit (I am not sure how some players would like the standing still while scoped bit though), but I am all for changing the SS's ability to something that doesn't boost damage at all.

Edited by HawkEyE_, February 22 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[Beemann]

HawkEyE_, on February 22 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Beemann said:

1. Hitscan is, and always has been, easier than a projectile equivalent. In a max damage scenario (which was calculated wrong in the OP btw. hitscan damage starts at T=0s and ends and T=3s, the OP has it starting at T=1s), you'd be comparing a direct hit HEAT to a hit from a slug or sabot, and the frequency of said hits. You'd also have to consider the ease with which simultaneous hits can be made with both primary and secondary, as doing so with the HEAT and TOW is considerably harder

Thank you for pointing out that the damage is wrong (I was tired when I was doing the math :s). Also I am not sure I follow. Do you mean to say that I didn't take travel time into consideration_ Or do you mean that the hitscan weapons can fire 1 more time_ (please let me know so I can correct the OP ) The main point of the damage part of the post was not to show what a player can do in 3 seconds, it was to show what each mech can do. The SS isn't OP unless it uses the PS ability and I myself think it needs to be changed. I am curious btw, what do you think the ability should be changed to_

The extra shot is a result of the lack of travel time. When t=3 is hit, your last shot hasnt hit on a projectile weapon, and has on the hitscan. If we go from when the first shot is fired to t3, hitscan weapons get an extra hit in (as the time you fire at is the time you hit at)
so at t=0s you've already done 337 damage before internals with Power shot, and you then get 3 more slug shots, which is an additional ~312 damage, putting the total at 649 damage over the duration of the ability
Granted, timing PS for this would require a macro, but even if we take off the PS bonus from the last shot you're still doing  621. Either way you're within 1 shotting range of a B mech on your next hit, and the second after that allows you to obliterate any mech that would remain after that point (944)
It's worth noting that these are shots that can be made from any position given LOS and are not hits that allow retaliation  in many cases, so on top of having an obscene damage boost you've got the best range in the game, and you've still got 675 health, meaning it'll take a HEAT scout over 4 seconds (bonus time determined by distance) of direct hits with both weapons to kill you (though you only need 1 direct hit TOW)
Using the splash hits people are so fond of mentioning, it would take even longer than that

Personally, I think the SS needs a more team oriented ability. Something along the lines of a target marker would be great. Wallhax seem a bit over the top considering you still have the ability to halve an A mech's health in an instant, but having a marker on a particular target for a decent duration would be kinda neat

[Culex]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

@Culex
Except ballistic barrage doesn't reduce your TTK by 2 or 3 times its normal value
Additionally, the solution in question doesn't really address the core problem, which is that the damage is simply too damn high

The damage should be relatively high. It's also why ballistic barrage lasts about 3 times longer. The ability is tailored to the mech it's put on. The berserker is designed to continuously fire with automatic weapons, and thus gets more benefit from a long duration but small boost. The SS is designed to make shots during very small timeframes (against good opponents) and be highly vulnerable in scope, but they have to have enough dmg to make a difference.

I don't mind making it harder to guarantee the SS a free PS double shot (referring to my suggestion about ability activation only outside of scope), but if the SS pulls it off, they should be rewarded appropriately. The damage has to be high enough, otherwise again they will just back out. Mechs that proceed through open area at half health when they know an SS is around are just begging to die.

Just as an A-mech is more adept to flee a fight and get away, or walk to their target in a reasonable enough speed to get the jump on them, or chase down a running target, they are going to have the lowest base hp for this reason. AJK's video is purely a let's see what would happen in the most perfect scenario (with offensive techtree loadout, internals most likely too; it would take one additional slug to kill otherwise) and doesn't display the enemy mech dodging, getting behind cover, or shooting back. Also while all of this is happening, when the SS chooses to stay in scope, they cut off their peripheral vision and radar. They are also a more stationary target, so any decent A mechs should more easily be able to land damage while the SS is doing this. All in all, the video AJK posted is basically a propaganda film. Very nice to paint the mech in OP colors. Let's just ignore all the other things the A mech can do and only show what the SS can do at it's best, if specced accordingly, with no resistance.

If the IRC scrims hold any value (and they do more than anything we have presently), it will show that the SS is not OP with this ability after all. We have to also keep in mind what mode this game is balanced around; I'm speaking from a Missile Assault standpoint. SS's can put up quite a good KDR if they camp and play safe, but they are not providing benefit to the team by hanging in the back. When they put their lives on the line to capture points, and have to fight intense CQC battles that do not favor them, this is where it really counts.

If this ability gets removed from the SS, SS's will truly go back to being only mostly support in high skill games. And a lot of the damage they put out will not receive proper credit because of LoS issues and mechs turning back and repairing. Should they choose to chase they will be made vulnerable and punished hard for it. You'd be almost always be better supporting your team by picking mechs that are better in CQC and fighting on points. High skill players will take note the first time they get hit by a sabot, and not stick around for you to spatter slugs at them.

Also, with PS, SS's can actually win DM's now against equal skill level players, something that would never happen before in previous builds before PS (I'd see one SS in a full game of DM if I was lucky; mostly it'd be just me). My KDR would be fine but it'd be hard generating enough XP score to overturn other mechs (almost always A's) since the targets are usually able to get away behind LoS and either delay you killing them so that your damage xp is gone or put you in a position unfavorable to you).

[U8er]

Evades logical point
Evades logical point
HURS A VIDEO

You oversimplified, own up to it.

[Beemann]

U8er, on February 22 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Evades logical point
Evades logical point
HURS A VIDEO

You oversimplified, own up to it.

Except he didn't, and no amount of restating an incorrect statement makes it correct

@Culex
Same question as Redvan, what do you feel should be one in one second to avoid the killing shot from a Sharpshooter
"Don't get shot" isn't a valid defence. The maps shouldn't be so cover heavy that the SS needs to be all or nothing, and hitscan is about the shooter's skill, not the target's evasion skill
Additionally, friendly pugs aren't where you determine balance

[Kerc_Kersa]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 22 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Beemann said:

1. Hitscan is, and always has been, easier than a projectile equivalent. In a max damage scenario (which was calculated wrong in the OP btw. hitscan damage starts at T=0s and ends and T=3s, the OP has it starting at T=1s), you'd be comparing a direct hit HEAT to a hit from a slug or sabot, and the frequency of said hits. You'd also have to consider the ease with which simultaneous hits can be made with both primary and secondary, as doing so with the HEAT and TOW is considerably harder

Thank you for pointing out that the damage is wrong (I was tired when I was doing the math :s). Also I am not sure I follow. Do you mean to say that I didn't take travel time into consideration_ Or do you mean that the hitscan weapons can fire 1 more time_ (please let me know so I can correct the OP ) The main point of the damage part of the post was not to show what a player can do in 3 seconds, it was to show what each mech can do. The SS isn't OP unless it uses the PS ability and I myself think it needs to be changed. I am curious btw, what do you think the ability should be changed to_

The extra shot is a result of the lack of travel time. When t=3 is hit, your last shot hasnt hit on a projectile weapon, and has on the hitscan. If we go from when the first shot is fired to t3, hitscan weapons get an extra hit in (as the time you fire at is the time you hit at)
so at t=0s you've already done 337 damage before internals with Power shot, and you then get 3 more slug shots, which is an additional ~312 damage, putting the total at 649 damage over the duration of the ability
Granted, timing PS for this would require a macro, but even if we take off the PS bonus from the last shot you're still doing  621. Either way you're within 1 shotting range of a B mech on your next hit, and the second after that allows you to obliterate any mech that would remain after that point (944)
It's worth noting that these are shots that can be made from any position given LOS and are not hits that allow retaliation  in many cases, so on top of having an obscene damage boost you've got the best range in the game, and you've still got 675 health, meaning it'll take a HEAT scout over 4 seconds (bonus time determined by distance) of direct hits with both weapons to kill you (though you only need 1 direct hit TOW)
Using the splash hits people are so fond of mentioning, it would take even longer than that

Personally, I think the SS needs a more team oriented ability. Something along the lines of a target marker would be great. Wallhax seem a bit over the top considering you still have the ability to halve an A mech's health in an instant, but having a marker on a particular target for a decent duration would be kinda neat

Ahh, I see what you mean (though isn't using a macro kinda like cheating_ To me it is like a lag-switch or a turbo-button, like on the old GC controllers ). I updated the OP and stated that the data does not take distance or flight time into consideration, just the raw damage each mech can do.

Also, I like your idea, but I want to add to it. What if instead of only marking 1 mech, it marked all mechs in your LoS_ Otherwise, the ability would not be much better than a radar scaner. (I will add your idea to the poll with your permission )

[Culex]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

@Culex
Same question as Redvan, what do you feel should be one in one second to avoid the killing shot from a Sharpshooter
"Don't get shot" isn't a valid defence. The maps shouldn't be so cover heavy that the SS needs to be all or nothing, and hitscan is about the shooter's skill, not the target's evasion skill
Additionally, friendly pugs aren't where you determine balance

I agree that the a lot of it does depend on the shooter's accuracy; that being said though dodging and boosting is sufficient to throw even seasoned SS's off. If it's long distance, all of the maps with exception to bazaar provide plenty of cover for any mech's hit by an SS do a reset behind cover. In Bazaar, they have to be out in the open to be completely at mercy to the SS. All the other maps provide ample cover. Let's not forget that repair orbs basically give A mech's a free 2nd life, if they experience getting hit by this combo.

It's very easy to quantify damage, and say omg OP, but much harder (pretty much impossible) to quantify the speed factor.

When you say what the enemy can do with one second, you've already given advantage to the SS in that fight being up (having the advantage), so that question is already skewed. Likewise I could state you're 2 feet in front of a brawler, under 250 hp, and ready to eat a flak/tow. What should you do_ The winning situation has already been established.

To which you will most likely respond the SS can do all of this in about 3 seconds. They still need to hit all of their shots. They still rely on LoS. They can still easily eat damage from being scoped in and take guaranteed splash. Explosions and smoke still block their view. They still can only do this on the lowest hp-mech in the game, and only once a minute assuming all the other pieces fall into place. They are meant to be a strong from a distance when they're are only focusing on the mech they are targeting.

As far as friendly pugs determining balance, they are the best thing we have at the moment. And the term friendly pug is an understatement, because depending on what players we have playing, it gets quite competitive. Players are on mumble coordinating. Not trying to sound negative, but likewise I could say, what have you done to determine balance_ Theorycraft_ Stomp in pubs_ The burden of proof would then rest with you.

Edited by Culex, February 22 2013 - 08:27 PM.

[U8er]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

I know, I am not denying what you are saying here, I am just pointing out to everyone who thinks the SS or any mech for that matter is OP when they are not. It is true you can do kills in less than a second with a well fired Det/Sabot/Slug/Power Shot combo, but that would take most players a lot of skill to do.Not saying that it can't be done, just it would be hard for most players to do.

You don't balance for the average player because those mechanics can be easily abused by good players, and become completely broken in the hands of great players. There needs to be a tradeoff between skill and power, and at the moment, you can get a lot of power out of the SS for not a lot of skill.

Unless your telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing and the ability to place your crosshairs over a target requires an excessive amount of skill_

That's oversimplification, pure and simple.  You've been trying to avoid admitting the fact since it damages your position.  Like people have already mentioned, you can't postulate an oversimplified scenario and then balance around it.

Edited by U8er, February 22 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[Nept]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Nept, on February 21 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Stuff

Hitscan ignores the level of mobility. Rather than have an exchange in which a shot is fired through a combination of timing, prediction and aim, and is avoided using speed, timing and prediction, often with the help of cover, you simply have the skill required to hit a moving target
That's it
If you look at previous posts by Asian and myself, you'll find that we actually oppose the current splash radius present in the majority of explosive weapons. The issue here is that your argument is a red herring
So here are the primary issues

You're still oversimplifying.  Hitscan does not ignore mobility because shooters must enact the same mental calculations, sans lead.  Then, and as I've mentioned before, they have to take into account the zoom-in time.  Splash weaponry is significantly more forgiving, especially in a game as cover-heavy as Hawken; snipers are punished massively for missing.

And no, my argument is not a red herring.  When you balance from oversimplified positions, you make mistakes because you miss details - you miss the full picture.

You're both demonstrating incredible intransigence on an obvious error.  Until you're willing to consider the entire picture, you're in no position to suggest balance changes.

Edited by Nept, February 22 2013 - 08:50 PM.

[7r1p]

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Hitscan ignores the level of mobility. Rather than have an exchange in which a shot is fired through a combination of timing, prediction and aim, and is avoided using speed, timing and prediction, often with the help of cover, you simply have the skill required to hit a moving target
That's it
If you look at previous posts by Asian and myself, you'll find that we actually oppose the current splash radius present in the majority of explosive weapons. The issue here is that your argument is a red herring
So here are the primary issues

You're both demonstrating incredible intransigence on an obvious error.  Until you're willing to consider the entire picture, you're in no position to suggest balance changes.

Agreed!  Beemann, I'm not buying it.  You make hitscan seem like a walk in the park in this game.  There are many more factors that you are omitting from your comparison.

[Beemann]

HawkEyE_, on February 22 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Ahh, I see what you mean (though isn't using a macro kinda like cheating_ To me it is like a lag-switch or a turbo-button, like on the old GC controllers ). I updated the OP and stated that the data does not take distance or flight time into consideration, just the raw damage each mech can do.

Also, I like your idea, but I want to add to it. What if instead of only marking 1 mech, it marked all mechs in your LoS_ Otherwise, the ability would not be much better than a radar scaner. (I will add your idea to the poll with your permission )

You cant stop people from using macros like you can lag switches and aimbots. Not only is it a convenience option, but you also have to consider the fact that you`re dealing with functions that come standard on most gaming mice

Additionally, I think you should have to hit the target to add them. The tradeoff should be the length of the target marking

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

You're still oversimplifying.  Hitscan does not ignore mobility because shooters must enact the same mental calculations, sans lead.  Then, and as I've mentioned before, they have to take into account the zoom-in time.  Splash weaponry is significantly more forgiving, especially in a game as cover-heavy as Hawken; snipers are punished massively for missing.

And no, my argument is not a red herring.  When you balance from oversimplified positions, you make mistakes because you miss details - you miss the full picture.

You're both demonstrating incredible intransigence on an obvious error.  Until you're willing to consider the entire picture, you're in no position to suggest balance changes.

Except that`s entirely wrong
The mental calculations COME FROM LEAD TIME
Hitting someone with hitscan is basically image recognition. It`s a binary function

If your cross-hair is on the target you shoot, if it`s not you move your cross-hair onto the target

You don`t take travel time into account (which is a function of projectile speed and distance, two things that aren`t factors for hitscan), you don`t make target predictions because you don`t need to (because their movement makes no difference, only their position at the point of fire), and you don`t do things like make preemptive shots because they`ll never hit
You click on the opponent and it hits, you click next to the opponent and you miss
It`s not oversimplification, it`s the definition of hitscan

@Culex
Are you suggesting that being instantly hit from any particular position by a hitscan alpha strike is equivalent to being manoeuvred into a situation where you're fighting a Brawler in a very specific instance_
Are you suggesting that you have a method in which you can reliably avoid being hit by a sharpshooter while still actually contributing to your team on every map in the game_
Are you suggesting that hitscan shots are as hard or harder to hit than slow projectile shots_

Edited by Beemann, February 22 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[Nept]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 22 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Ahh, I see what you mean (though isn't using a macro kinda like cheating_ To me it is like a lag-switch or a turbo-button, like on the old GC controllers ). I updated the OP and stated that the data does not take distance or flight time into consideration, just the raw damage each mech can do.

Also, I like your idea, but I want to add to it. What if instead of only marking 1 mech, it marked all mechs in your LoS_ Otherwise, the ability would not be much better than a radar scaner. (I will add your idea to the poll with your permission )

You cant stop people from using macros like you can lag switches and aimbots. Not only is it a convenience option, but you also have to consider the fact that you`re dealing with functions that come standard on most gaming mice

Additionally, I think you should have to hit the target to add them. The tradeoff should be the length of the target marking

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

You're still oversimplifying.  Hitscan does not ignore mobility because shooters must enact the same mental calculations, sans lead.  Then, and as I've mentioned before, they have to take into account the zoom-in time.  Splash weaponry is significantly more forgiving, especially in a game as cover-heavy as Hawken; snipers are punished massively for missing.

And no, my argument is not a red herring.  When you balance from oversimplified positions, you make mistakes because you miss details - you miss the full picture.

You're both demonstrating incredible intransigence on an obvious error.  Until you're willing to consider the entire picture, you're in no position to suggest balance changes.

Except that`s entirely wrong
The mental calculations COME FROM LEAD TIME
Hitting someone with hitscan is basically image recognition. It`s a binary function

If your cross-hair is on the target you shoot, if it`s not you move your cross-hair onto the target

You don`t take travel time into account (which is a function of projectile speed and distance, two things that aren`t factors for hitscan), you don`t make target predictions because you don`t need to (because their movement makes no difference, only their position at the point of fire), and you don`t do things like make preemptive shots because they`ll never hit
You click on the opponent and it hits, you click next to the opponent and you miss
It`s not oversimplification, it`s the definition of hitscan

No, that's not entirely wrong.  You're still refusing to think.  Instead, you're spouting jargon as though "mental calculations" weren't a figure of speech describing the target acquisition, following, and trigger processes.

Put simply, you're oversimplifying again and attempting to fit the process to mathematical terminology.  You're confusing the in-game calculations of hitscan and projectile-weapons with the mental processes that enable players to use them.

Hitting someone with hitscan is not "essentially image recognition".  In fact, in an astounding demonstration of misunderstanding, that phrasing manages to exceed the oversimplification committed by asian.

You're theorycrafting to the "maximum extreme" with no understanding of the actualities.  Remove yourself from the numerical mindset for a moment (numbers and jargon don't impress people who understand them) and re-read the posts that myself and numerous others have made against your points.

Edited by Nept, February 22 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[Culex]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

@Culex
Are you suggesting that being instantly hit from any particular position by a hitscan alpha strike is equivalent to being manoeuvred into a situation where you're fighting a Brawler in a very specific instance_
Are you suggesting that you have a method in which you can reliably avoid being hit by a sharpshooter while still actually contributing to your team on every map in the game_
Are you suggesting that hitscan shots are as hard or harder to hit than slow projectile shots_

Yet you're suggesting taking an alpha strike from a SS. That too is a situation you've already put the receiving mech in. One shot is all it takes for a mech to realize to not stand in LoS with a SS, and to shoot a secondary back which is more likely to hit on the SS than any other mech, while they are scoped. You're seriously undermining how necessary the scope is. It is a both a good thing and a bad thing.

Are you telling me the SS will never get caught in CQC_ They will; unless they choose to camp at which point they will not be benefiting their team very much once the enemies realize their position and call it out. Once they are caught in CQC, they are favored to lose. Yes, they can win, but on equal grounds they should lose. SS's are also the easiest mechs in the game to catch by surprise. Their scope requires precious time to enter, and having to unscope, and rescope and establish los with the enemy is more than just "point and click."

Remember this is a team game. Not a solo 1v1 everyone starts off on opposite ends of the distance. You should eventually get shot by an SS, lol. You don't balance like we're playing 1v1 on an open-ended map. You balance by how effective the SS can be relative to their team on a consistent basis on more than one map.

As far as projectile shots are concerned, prediction is a powerful thing. Are you telling me it's hard to shoot a ToW around the area where you expect a mech to be or run to, and detonate it_ Even a non-tow, you shoot it, have COMPLETE view of your surroundings at the whole time (qq scope) and move and choose to detonate it if you want. Hitscan's effectiveness deteriorates rapidly the moment the enemy mech becomes aware where the SS is positioned.

Edited by Culex, February 22 2013 - 09:56 PM.

[Nept]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Hitting someone with hitscan is basically image recognition.

In case anyone's confused/impressed by the jargon (and you certainly shouldn't be impressed), I'd like to describe why this statement is so astoundingly stupid.

Beemann has just claimed that if you see an enemy, you've shot them with hitscan.

Let's review that again.

If you see an enemy . . . you've shot them with hitscan.

That's not an oversimplification, or a twisting of words toward my point.  That is, honest-to-goodness, what he has claimed.  He's tempered it somewhat with the modifier, "basically", but I may as well say, "Executing a crescent kick is basically moving your leg".

And once more for clarity's sake: Beemann claims that if you are using hitscan, and you've seen an enemy, you've shot them.  For those of you who've been having sharpshooting difficulties, Beemann's presented an obvious solution.

*Edit* My god, not to be rude, but go take a basic-level perception course.

Edited by Nept, February 22 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[Beemann]

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

I have created a strawman that I feel looks just like you

Except I explained exactly what I meant and, with appropriate reading comprehension, you could clearly see that I wasn't saying "you see them and they die" but rather "I recognize my crosshair is over the target, I click and they take damage"
So congrats on adding strawmanning to your list of logical fallacies

@ your other post
You're arguing against the definition of hitscan to protect a weapon with
Superior range to a direct hit projectile
Superior direct hit damage to a projectile
Less effort involved than a projectile
A TTK that actually changes the pacing of the game, and is out of place when compared directly to other weaponry both in its optimal state on a map and out of it

So... congrats_


Edit: Forgot my reply to Culex

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Yet you're suggesting taking an alpha strike from a SS. That too is a situation you've already put the receiving mech in. One shot is all it takes for a mech to realize to not stand in LoS with a SS, and to shoot a secondary back which is more likely to hit on the SS than any other mech, while they are scoped. You're seriously undermining how necessary the scope is. It is a both a good thing and a bad thing.

An alpha strike from an SS isn't something you avoid, it's something an SS succeeds at or fails at. Additionally, what you're dealing with is two instantaneous opening shots that, in the video AJK posted, dealt 381 damage total
A Flak and TOW combo will, at most, deal 305 in perfectly optimal conditions, and cannot pull off even close to that at range simultaneously (especially considering the fact that you have to hit with the TOW directly)
As well, after that initial hit, you have to take two shots from the flak with optimal or near optimal damage for the ambush to succeed, compared with the 1 at any range 1:1 accuracy slug shot that the SS needs after the initial strike

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Are you telling me the SS will never get caught in CQC_ They will; unless they choose to camp at which point they will not be benefiting their team very much once the enemies realize their position and call it out. Once they are caught in CQC, they are favored to lose. Yes, they can win, but on equal grounds they should lose. SS's are also the easiest mechs in the game to catch by surprise. Their scope requires precious time to enter, and having to unscope, and rescope and establish los with the enemy is more than just "point and click."

In CQC you can rush your opponent and automatically hit them (especially useful against explosives users... which is everyone who isn't an SS or Reaper). Additionally, the time you take going after a sharpshooter is time that their team can use to harass or kill you, or accomplish objectives
So you've got a class who can hit you from a spot where you can't retaliate, and retaliating means moving out of position, overextending, and putting yourself and teammates at greater risk

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Remember this is a team game. Not a solo 1v1 everyone starts off on opposite ends of the distance. You should eventually get shot by an SS, lol. You don't balance like we're playing 1v1 on an open-ended map. You balance by how effective the SS can be relative to their team on a consistent basis on more than one map.

And you don't think a 1 second TTK on an A mech is useful to a team_ Especially when you have at least another second or so to deal instant hit 100+ damage slug shots_

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

As far as projectile shots are concerned, prediction is a powerful thing. Are you telling me it's hard to shoot a ToW around the area where you expect a mech to be or run to, and detonate it_ Even a non-tow, you shoot it, have COMPLETE view of your surroundings at the whole time (qq scope) and move and choose to detonate it if you want. Hitscan's effectiveness deteriorates rapidly the moment the enemy mech becomes aware where the SS is positioned.

You're dealing far less damage than the Slug or Sabot by relying on splash hits, and direct hits are FAR more difficult
Additionally, your ability to manoeuvre only matters in terms of timing, which means it doesn't matter to a hitscan user. If you decide to "dodge" a hitscan shot, you're attempting to predict the point of fire and preemptively move. The shooter on the other hand just has to have their cursor over you and click, as opposed to someone with a projectile weapon, who has to predict where you're going to be when the projectile moves out to where you are
Basically it's the reason why the EOC is so hard to use

Edited by Beemann, February 22 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Nept]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

I have created a strawman that I feel looks just like you

Except I explained exactly what I meant and, with appropriate reading comprehension, you could clearly see that I wasn't saying "you see them and they die" but rather "I recognize my crosshair is over the target, I click and they take damage"
So congrats on adding strawmanning to your list of logical fallacies

Except I already explained exactly why that's an incorrect interpretation.  Go read through the earlier post.

[PlagueDoctor]

I didn't read any of the thread but heres my thoughts

powershot is bad because of reasons. I can't say why, but its simple in a bad way. An example of something thats simple in a good way is something like the assault's ability, or caitlyn from league of legends. what_ wrong game. Oh.

Right, so its bad because it eats like half of someones health of without really trying. You really should have to play a minigame of tetris and then get a tetris within that minigame for it to work. Maybe tifas first limit break from ff7_ I dunno.

Here is what It should do. You hit your ability. A special round is loaded into your SABOT (thats pronounced sabit for u plebs) You fire this SABIT, it lands, the enemy is marked on your hud, like a red targeting box through walls, and some visually loud thing pointing to them "SHOOT ME"
This person takes more damage from OTHER PLAYERS on your team.You cap them, they take more damage. Easy as that. who wants pizza rolls_

[AsianJoyKiller]

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

I have created a strawman that I feel looks just like you

Except I explained exactly what I meant and, with appropriate reading comprehension, you could clearly see that I wasn't saying "you see them and they die" but rather "I recognize my crosshair is over the target, I click and they take damage"
So congrats on adding strawmanning to your list of logical fallacies

Except I already explained exactly why that's an incorrect interpretation.  Go read through the earlier post.

So if I click while my crosshairs are over a target, they don't take damage_
Are you sure you understand how hitscan works_

[Nept]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

Beemann is oversimplifying again.

Except I explained exactly what I meant and, with appropriate reading comprehension, you could clearly see that I wasn't saying "you see them and they die" but rather "I recognize my crosshair is over the target, I click and they take damage"
So congrats on adding strawmanning to your list of logical fallacies

@ your other post
You're arguing against the definition of hitscan to protect a weapon with
Superior range to a direct hit projectile
Superior direct hit damage to a projectile
Less effort involved than a projectile
A TTK that actually changes the pacing of the game, and is out of place when compared directly to other weaponry both in its optimal state on a map and out of it

So... congrats_

First, it's not a strawman.  Here's the explanation, again:

Quote

No, that's not entirely wrong.  You're still refusing to think.  Instead, you're spouting jargon as though "mental calculations" weren't a figure of speech describing the target acquisition, following, and trigger processes.

Put simply, you're oversimplifying again and attempting to fit the process to mathematical terminology.  You're confusing the in-game calculations of hitscan and projectile-weapons with the mental processes that enable players to use them.

Ironically, your casting it as a strawman is the only strawman.

Second, your evading your mistakes yet again.  My argument is against your oversimplification.  Stop tossing red-herrings and admit fault. As I've already explained,

Nept]

You're both demonstrating incredible intransigence on an obvious error.  Until you're willing to consider the entire picture, you're in no position to suggest balance changes.

*Edit* And for you, asian:

Quote

[b]You're confusing the in-game calculations of hitscan and projectile-weapons with the mental processes that enable players to use them.

Edited by Nept, February 22 2013 - 10:54 PM.