127 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

In case anybody is confused about how powerful Power Shot is, and how fast you can kill, here's a video.

Fully offensive specced SS vs 500 hp Beserker
No items used.
Kill time: 1 second from first shot, 2 salvos

http://youtu.be/QuZHnu44skk

Are you telling me that's not too powerful_

O SNAP!  YOU KILLED A STATIONARY TARGET!

*pats AJK on the head* "it's ok, everyone's gotta start somewhere"

That was to prove that the TTK is less than 2 seconds and you don't need items to kill an A-Class in a double salvo.

*pat RedVan on the head* It's okay. Not everyone is sharp enough to get the point right away.

[Houruck]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

*pat RedVan on the head* It's okay. Not everyone is sharp enough to get the point right away.

I got your point but I think he is right more or less. A class mechs are not known for being slow-moving targets.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Houruck, on February 22 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

*pat RedVan on the head* It's okay. Not everyone is sharp enough to get the point right away.

I got your point but I think he is right more or less. A class mechs are not known for being slow-moving targets.

Their speed is a minor issue.
Since the Sabot/Slug is hitscan, that means you are able to deal critical damage to them without warning. You hit them once, and they are forced to retreat and repair immediately they have less than 1 second to break LoS, or they die.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, February 22 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Houruck]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Their speed is a minor issue.
Since the Sabot/Slug is hitscan, that means you are able to deal critical damage to them without warning. You hit them once, and they are forced to retreat and repair immediately they have less than 1 second to break LoS, or they die.

True, but they can quickly go behind a cover.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Houruck, on February 22 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Their speed is a minor issue.
Since the Sabot/Slug is hitscan, that means you are able to deal critical damage to them without warning. You hit them once, and they are forced to retreat and repair immediately they have less than 1 second to break LoS, or they die.

True, but they can quickly go behind a cover.

Golly, it sure is lucky you can pick the moment to use powershot, so that it's hard or impossible for them to get to cover in less than 1 second.

[Culex]

Since people.are still arguing this, what about some kind of compromise for the powershot. I had some suggestions more fleshed out in another thread (I am on my phone and limited to type), but another thought occurred to me this morning.

What about requiring Powershot to only be able to be activated outside of scope_ If you were scoped, you'd have to unscope to pop the ability. This will keep the ability rewarding to do good damage with it, but there will be less of a window of opportunity and more chances to blow it.

It takes about a half second alone to perform a scope, and a SS already in scope will have to choose to unscope and rescope to pop this, and a lot of positioning can change after at least a second (no guaranteed double shot). And in this time its also possible to miss out on 1-2 slug shots that would've been ps otherwise depending on how fast you can track to the enemy. The damage can be retained however (except affecting items, thats lulz).

Thoughts_

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

In case anybody is confused about how powerful Power Shot is, and how fast you can kill, here's a video.

Fully offensive specced SS vs 500 hp Beserker
No items used.
Kill time: 1 second from first shot, 2 salvos

http://youtu.be/QuZHnu44skk

Are you telling me that's not too powerful_

O SNAP!  YOU KILLED A STATIONARY TARGET!

*pats AJK on the head* "it's ok, everyone's gotta start somewhere"

That was to prove that the TTK is less than 2 seconds and you don't need items to kill an A-Class in a double salvo.

*pat RedVan on the head* It's okay. Not everyone is sharp enough to get the point right away.

I never said that the TTK was acceptable.  Just, if you want to make a point with a video, at least have it be realistic.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I never said that the TTK was acceptable.  Just, if you want to make a point with a video, at least have it be realistic.

You're still missing the point...
OP claimed you can't kill an A-Class without an item in less than 2 seconds. Tell me RedVan, what do you see happening in that video_

[Beemann]

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Since people.are still arguing this, what about some kind of compromise for the powershot. I had some suggestions more fleshed out in another thread (I am on my phone and limited to type), but another thought occurred to me this morning.

What about requiring Powershot to only be able to be activated outside of scope_ If you were scoped, you'd have to unscope to pop the ability. This will keep the ability rewarding to do good damage with it, but there will be less of a window of opportunity and more chances to blow it.

It takes about a half second alone to perform a scope, and a SS already in scope will have to choose to unscope and rescope to pop this, and a lot of positioning can change after at least a second (no guaranteed double shot). And in this time its also possible to miss out on 1-2 slug shots that would've been ps otherwise depending on how fast you can track to the enemy. The damage can be retained however (except affecting items, thats lulz).

Thoughts_

Still doesn't really help, considering the opponent doesn't know you've used powershot, and considering the fact that all you've really done is added in a bandaid fix with the same time reduction as just lowering the duration

@Redvan
So we're now basing the optimal TTK on people who can't aim a hitscan gun at a fairly large and relatively slow moving target_
Doesn't sound like a good way of doing balance to me...
I mean... even ignoring the fact that you've missed the point of the video, there's still some pretty huge issues with being able to take out a target in the first second of PS (even if doing so with maximum efficiency does take a macro)

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I never said that the TTK was acceptable.  Just, if you want to make a point with a video, at least have it be realistic.

You're still missing the point...
OP claimed you can't kill an A-Class without an item in less than 2 seconds. Tell me RedVan, what do you see happening in that video_

Quote for me where he says "You can't kill an A-Class without an item in less than 2 seconds", because I just read the OP 3 times, and I guess I missed it all three times.

MY POINT on the other hand, is that who gives a fuzzy bunny if you can kill an A class mech in 2 seconds while they just stand there.  Because, last I checked, people aren't just standing around out on the battle field, and if an A class mech is dying in 2 seconds, they're obviously a noob.

I mean, what if HF did exactly enough damage to 1 shot a C class standing still_  But then lets say 80% of the salvo misses as soon as the mech takes a step.  Would it make more sense to show a video of a C class getting 1 shot while they stand there, which essentially never happens in a game, or would it make more sense to show how the weapon plays out in a match where people are using their movement properly_

So again, show me a practical application please, thanks.

Edited by RedVan, February 22 2013 - 02:32 PM.

[Beemann]

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I never said that the TTK was acceptable.  Just, if you want to make a point with a video, at least have it be realistic.

You're still missing the point...
OP claimed you can't kill an A-Class without an item in less than 2 seconds. Tell me RedVan, what do you see happening in that video_

Quote for me where he says "You can't kill an A-Class without an item in less than 2 seconds", because I just read the OP 3 times, and I guess I missed it all three times.

MY POINT on the other hand, is that who gives a fuzzy bunny if you can kill an A class mech in 2 seconds while they just stand there.  Because, last I checked, people aren't just standing around out on the battle field, and if an A class mech is dying in 2 seconds, they're obviously a noob.

I mean, what if HF did exactly enough damage to 1 shot a C class standing still_  But then lets say 80% of the salvo misses as soon as the mech takes a step.  Would it make more sense to show a video of a C class getting 1 shot while they stand there, which essentially never happens in a game, or would it make more sense to show how the weapon plays out in a match where people are using their movement properly_

So again, show me a practical application please, thanks.

Except the Sabot is still easy to use against slow moving large targets
Lets look at it this way
You are an A mech and you get hit with a slug+sabot combo (lets use the area provided in the video for this scenario, as it's a fairly popular one)
What are you going to do in ONE second that can actually counter that last hit_

[RedVan]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I never said that the TTK was acceptable.  Just, if you want to make a point with a video, at least have it be realistic.

You're still missing the point...
OP claimed you can't kill an A-Class without an item in less than 2 seconds. Tell me RedVan, what do you see happening in that video_

Quote for me where he says "You can't kill an A-Class without an item in less than 2 seconds", because I just read the OP 3 times, and I guess I missed it all three times.

MY POINT on the other hand, is that who gives a fuzzy bunny if you can kill an A class mech in 2 seconds while they just stand there.  Because, last I checked, people aren't just standing around out on the battle field, and if an A class mech is dying in 2 seconds, they're obviously a noob.

I mean, what if HF did exactly enough damage to 1 shot a C class standing still_  But then lets say 80% of the salvo misses as soon as the mech takes a step.  Would it make more sense to show a video of a C class getting 1 shot while they stand there, which essentially never happens in a game, or would it make more sense to show how the weapon plays out in a match where people are using their movement properly_

So again, show me a practical application please, thanks.

Except the Sabot is still easy to use against slow moving large targets
Lets look at it this way
You are an A mech and you get hit with a slug+sabot combo (lets use the area provided in the video for this scenario, as it's a fairly popular one)
What are you going to do in ONE second that can actually counter that last hit_

If you're an A class mech standing that far from cover, you're already lost.  I mean common now, there is a huge fuzzy bunny wall to his left.  If he's so far out in the open that a SS is going to get the follow on shot before he can get back to cover, he deserves to die, and even w/o the SS ability, he'd be so low HP the SS could just rush him once he gets to cover and kill him anyway.

Now lets look at a realistic scenario:

SS holding the choke, A class wants to move up across the bridge.  SMART A class player waits for teammates who then splash the corners so the SS can't poke out for a shot, giving the A class plenty of time to cross.  But wait.  Who the fuzzy bunny crosses the bridge when there is opposition anyway_  Why do that when you can go around that big wall to the left, down, and jet back up, completely out of sight of an SS on the other side of the choke.

See how this works_  You need practical scenarios, not stupid "hrp d drp!  I r A class lumbering across d bridge!"

Let me ask you this:  Would you get caught in that position, in that scenario_  I mean, aside from the fact you already did for the video

Edited by RedVan, February 22 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[TwiceDead]

Just replace the ability with a self-destruct ability that awards the last person who shot at you the kill so it won't be exploited in TDM...

In all seriousness, I think I would like some kind of interesting ability for the SS. Powershot makes sense and all, but would some kind of escape ability be the end of the world_

[Beemann]

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

If you're an A class mech standing that far from cover, you're already lost.  I mean common now, there is a huge fuzzy bunny wall to his left.  If he's so far out in the open that a SS is going to get the follow on shot before he can get back to cover, he deserves to die, and even w/o the SS ability, he'd be so low HP the SS could just rush him once he gets to cover and kill him anyway.

Now lets look at a realistic scenario:

SS holding the choke, A class wants to move up across the bridge.  SMART A class player waits for teammates who then splash the corners so the SS can't poke out for a shot, giving the A class plenty of time to cross.  But wait.  Who the fuzzy bunny crosses the bridge when there is opposition anyway_  Why do that when you can go around that big wall to the left, down, and jet back up, completely out of sight of an SS on the other side of the choke.

See how this works_  You need practical scenarios, not stupid "hrp d drp!  I r A class lumbering across d bridge!"

Let me ask you this:  Would you get caught in that position, in that scenario_  I mean, aside from the fact you already did for the video

As an A class, I should always stick to high cover areas and should not go to any objective points unless I can magically teleport there
Got it
Also 2v1 being an absolute requirement = balanced
Glad we aren't being biased here or anything

[RedVan]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

RedVan, on February 22 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

If you're an A class mech standing that far from cover, you're already lost.  I mean common now, there is a huge fuzzy bunny wall to his left.  If he's so far out in the open that a SS is going to get the follow on shot before he can get back to cover, he deserves to die, and even w/o the SS ability, he'd be so low HP the SS could just rush him once he gets to cover and kill him anyway.

Now lets look at a realistic scenario:

SS holding the choke, A class wants to move up across the bridge.  SMART A class player waits for teammates who then splash the corners so the SS can't poke out for a shot, giving the A class plenty of time to cross.  But wait.  Who the fuzzy bunny crosses the bridge when there is opposition anyway_  Why do that when you can go around that big wall to the left, down, and jet back up, completely out of sight of an SS on the other side of the choke.

See how this works_  You need practical scenarios, not stupid "hrp d drp!  I r A class lumbering across d bridge!"

Let me ask you this:  Would you get caught in that position, in that scenario_  I mean, aside from the fact you already did for the video

As an A class, I should always stick to high cover areas and should not go to any objective points unless I can magically teleport there
Got it
Also 2v1 being an absolute requirement = balanced
Glad we aren't being biased here or anything

I already discussed how to use cover in that scenario...  No teleportation necessary

And 2v1 being a requirement, well, that's how mech classes work.  Some classes are strong against other particular classes, but not so much to others.  That's kinda a standard theme in games like this.  Got a light mech and large open field vs a SS_  Perhaps its time to get smart and think up a different strat.  I mean fuzzy bunny, rocketeer must be OP too then, it'll wreck a class A in an open field.  Must be OP.

And for the record, yes, you should stick to high cover areas when going for an objective, especially if you're going to be stupid enough to go for it alone.  That's just fuzzy bunny common sense.  Seriously, what did you think happened before the new ability when an A class was crossing an open area towards a SS_  They died anyway.  Nothing has changed as a result of this new ability.  So what are you saying_  We should just remove the SS because it is effective in open areas_  Which kinda happens to be the whole point of the mech_

Edited by RedVan, February 22 2013 - 03:29 PM.

[Interrobang]

Balanced or not, I've actually become quite bored with the Sharpshooter. It's been my main mech since alpha, and was the first mech I got to level 25, but lately it hasn't been the same. It used to actually take some degree of skill but now it's just retardedly easy to use relative to other mechs. I've quit using it because it's just not fun to play anymore.

[RedVan]

Interrobang, on February 22 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Balanced or not, I've actually become quite bored with the Sharpshooter. It's been my main mech since alpha, and was the first mech I got to level 25, but lately it hasn't been the same. It used to actually take some degree of skill but now it's just retardedly easy to use relative to other mechs. I've quit using it because it's just not fun to play anymore.

I agree, but the reason it's retardedly easy to use is due to a massive amount of noobs as opponents.  Not due to any changes to the mech.

[Culex]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Culex, on February 22 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Since people.are still arguing this, what about some kind of compromise for the powershot. I had some suggestions more fleshed out in another thread (I am on my phone and limited to type), but another thought occurred to me this morning.

What about requiring Powershot to only be able to be activated outside of scope_ If you were scoped, you'd have to unscope to pop the ability. This will keep the ability rewarding to do good damage with it, but there will be less of a window of opportunity and more chances to blow it.

It takes about a half second alone to perform a scope, and a SS already in scope will have to choose to unscope and rescope to pop this, and a lot of positioning can change after at least a second (no guaranteed double shot). And in this time its also possible to miss out on 1-2 slug shots that would've been ps otherwise depending on how fast you can track to the enemy. The damage can be retained however (except affecting items, thats lulz).

Thoughts_

Still doesn't really help, considering the opponent doesn't know you've used powershot, and considering the fact that all you've really done is added in a bandaid fix with the same time reduction as just lowering the duration

As far as the opponent not knowing you've used, that's just how the ability is (just like ballistic barrage). I proposed an idea in another thread about all special abilities being visible to enemies, like an icon displayed over their head when using it.

I disagree about it just being a time reduction. If an SS is already in scope, they will hover onto their target, F, double shot. What my change is going to result in is a more limited window for the SS to get the full or at worst no benefit from this ability. If the SS is unscoped, they pop then have to scope, and the target could have disappeared by then. If its scoped, they have to un and rescope if they want this, again huge chance of losing their target.

On the surface it looks like a band-aid fix, but the resulting changes are much larger.

[Beemann]

Redvan, without PS it takes 5 seconds of fire to kill an A class and the amount of time you can be out of cover against a powershot SS is 1 second. Even if we account for time required to hit a target and you're slow enough that that's one second, it still takes 3 times longer to kill a target without PS. With the previous damage boost ability it still would be about double the time
Can you do some math before you make ridiculous assertions please_

@Culex
Except ballistic barrage doesn't reduce your TTK by 2 or 3 times its normal value
Additionally, the solution in question doesn't really address the core problem, which is that the damage is simply too damn high

Edited by Beemann, February 22 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[Tankero]

Hi folks,

I'm a class A zerker pilot. I've even come across a few of the folks that are here and I wanted to toss in my two cents.

First off, and it seems that this has been discussed, but it may bear repeating, the TTK chart in the OP is off the mark, since it doesn't take into account the travelling time or fire spread of the weapons in question.

Raw numbers without some rigorous statistical data are meaningless. Another thing it doesn't take into account is that normal defensive maneuvers don't prevent or mitigate damage for any of the SS weapons as they do for everything else.  In order for a pilot to successfully dodge a sniper shot, they have to dodge just as the player at the other end of the line is pressing the trigger. Half a second too early or too late equates to 50% or more of an A-class' health evaporating.

Now, the other issue is that SS weapons can be use effectively at any range. If they were effective only at long range, they wouldn't be a problem. There'd be a rock to their scissors, but sniper weapons are just as deadly in a knife fight as they are from across the map. The powershot ability exacerbates this problem, but isn't at the core of it.

How is this problem solved while not killing the class_ Perhaps this could be a compromise: Scoped weapons could have two firing modes - scoped and unscoped. Unscoped fire would be quicker, but doing slightly lower DPS (meaning less damage per shot, dividing the usual amount per the new number of shots per minute) and scoped where the weapons operate as normal. While scoped, the mech could be pinned to the ground where it stands. With reduced awareness and zero mobility, the SS pilot would be making a conscientiousness choice to trade these two resources.