127 replies to this topic

[PlagueDoctor]

literally semantics

[Nept]

Actually not.

[7r1p]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

I have created a strawman that I feel looks just like you

Except I explained exactly what I meant and, with appropriate reading comprehension, you could clearly see that I wasn't saying "you see them and they die" but rather "I recognize my crosshair is over the target, I click and they take damage"
So congrats on adding strawmanning to your list of logical fallacies

Except I already explained exactly why that's an incorrect interpretation.  Go read through the earlier post.

So if I click while my crosshairs are over a target, they don't take damage_
Are you sure you understand how hitscan works_

@Asian
Again, like Nept was saying, That's STILL an over simplifications of hitscan as well as putting it out of context of the game.
You've analyzed the "weapon style" and didn't really factor much of the "aiming style" and "gameplay style."


@Asian & Beeman Having read the arguments that you both have put on the table, It feels as if you two made these observations not by practice but through thought. Because if you have tried the SS a bit you'd notice the opposing factors involved when playing as one.  That or you're playing against fairly weak opponents.


Going to do a list format. Simple and Fast.

1) SS needs to be at mid range to play effective. Why_ semi-smart players know there is numerous cover to utilize.
Camping as a SS at long distance makes you a weak contributor to the team.  Bringing the battle close is risky business.

2) You need line of sight in order to battle versus the majority that have flexible utilities with remote det and/or splash and/or lock-on.

3) You NEED to zoom for full damage and full accuracy. Without it you do little to no damage.

4) Zooming in obviously narrows your vision.  Making you an easy target to surround.

5) Semi-smart players WILL try to surround and close the gap once the SS is close because:
a. Zooming makes tracking targets difficult if sight is broken.
b. Furthermore, torso movement restricts aim, wide shots are difficult

6) SS's move slow! Escape prove very difficult

7) You do not have the amour to tank very well.

8)Your shots are not frequent. You're shots NEED to count.  You miss at this range, you're most likely dead.

Edited by 7r1p, February 22 2013 - 11:41 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

7r1p, on February 22 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

@Asian & Beeman Having read the arguments that you both have put on the table, It feels as if you two made these observations not by practice but through thought. Because if you have tried the SS a bit you'd notice the opposing factors involved when playing as one.  That or you're playing against fairly weak opponents.

It's not like multiple great players have said I play a good SS publicly on the forums or anything...
Oh wait.

[Nept]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

7r1p, on February 22 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

@Asian & Beeman Having read the arguments that you both have put on the table, It feels as if you two made these observations not by practice but through thought. Because if you have tried the SS a bit you'd notice the opposing factors involved when playing as one.  That or you're playing against fairly weak opponents.

It's not like multiple great players have said I play a good SS publicly on the forums or anything...
Oh wait.

Might want to improve upon that image recognition.

In all seriousness, I don't typically downplay the skill of anyone I'm debating . . . but I hope you've improved substantially since then.  To be fair,  I remember you mentioning that you didn't typically play sharpshooter at that point.

Again, when you oversimplify processes, you sequester yourself from the larger picture.  Proper balance perspectives are achieved only through full assessments and honest discussion.

Edited by Nept, February 23 2013 - 12:04 AM.

[7r1p]

Nept, on February 23 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

7r1p, on February 22 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

@Asian & Beeman Having read the arguments that you both have put on the table, It feels as if you two made these observations not by practice but through thought. Because if you have tried the SS a bit you'd notice the opposing factors involved when playing as one.  That or you're playing against fairly weak opponents.

It's not like multiple great players have said I play a good SS publicly on the forums or anything...
Oh wait.

Might want to improve upon that image recognition.

I don't see it AsianKillJoy.

There's a clear lack of "great players" in that vid.

Address the factors I pointed out with  your "experience" with SS please:

7r1p, on February 22 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

1) SS needs to be at mid range to play effective. Why_ semi-smart players know there is numerous cover to utilize.
Camping as a SS at long distance makes you a weak contributor to the team.  Bringing the battle close is risky business.

2) You need line of sight in order to battle versus the majority that have flexible utilities with remote det and/or splash and/or lock-on.

3) You NEED to zoom for full damage and full accuracy. Without it you do little to no damage.

4) Zooming in obviously narrows your vision.  Making you an easy target to surround.

5) Semi-smart players WILL try to surround and close the gap once the SS is close because:
a. Zooming makes tracking targets difficult if sight is broken.
b. Furthermore, torso movement restricts aim, wide shots are difficult

6) SS's move slow! Escape prove very difficult

7) You do not have the amour to tank very well.

8)Your shots are not frequent. You're shots NEED to count.  You miss at this range, you're most likely dead.

Better yet, post me a vid with you against "great players."

Edited by 7r1p, February 23 2013 - 12:24 AM.

[Heartsong]

There seems to be a prevailing idea that, because a sharpshooter in the hands of a strong player at its optimum range pulling out all the stops can do extreme amounts of damage, it is broken. It seems to me that what's being argued is that this use of a class to its fullest potential highlights that its potential is too high. Of course, the argument against the sharpshooter is focusing on a situation in which the sharpshooter's player is in a 1v1 scenario and their opponent is most of the map's distance away. That's the logical thing to do, because it's where the sharpshooter is the strongest. It's not a realistic premise for the discussion at hand, though. One could, rather convincingly perhaps, say that a HEAT scout is overpowered because of how much damage it can put out in CQC. That's simply creating a fictionalized portrait in which there are no times when the pilot of said overpowered mech is in anywhere but the optimal situation for their mech.

Playing in the game simply doesn't allow for this overly simplistic way of measuring "balance".

[U8er]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 22 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

7r1p, on February 22 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

@Asian & Beeman Having read the arguments that you both have put on the table, It feels as if you two made these observations not by practice but through thought. Because if you have tried the SS a bit you'd notice the opposing factors involved when playing as one.  That or you're playing against fairly weak opponents.

It's not like multiple great players have said I play a good SS publicly on the forums or anything...
Oh wait.

http://www.youtube.c...jwDyena4#t=134s

LOL
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[AsianJoyKiller]

7r1p, on February 23 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

I don't see it AsianKillJoy.
There's a clear lack of "great players" in that vid.

Oh yes. Because that was the only match I've ever played on a Sharpshooter ever and I've never ever played it any other time.
And that video totally wasn't made to show off a playstyle for effective sharpshooter play, and was totally about showing off my skills.
OH WAIT.
lrn2context

Keep in mind, I've played SS in the PUGs that people are so fond of referencing as a good standard of high level play, and I'm sure anybody who's played against me while I pilot my SS can tell you I'm at least better than average with it.

7r1p, on February 22 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

1) SS needs to be at mid range to play effective. Why_ semi-smart players know there is numerous cover to utilize.
Camping as a SS at long distance makes you a weak contributor to the team.  Bringing the battle close is risky business.
Except a good SS can even engage in CQC.

2) You need line of sight in order to battle versus the majority that have flexible utilities with remote det and/or splash and/or lock-on.
Lock on is easily foiled, and it's not like splash does full damage. And since projectile weapons are the only weapons that do splash, you have the chance to avoid taking full damage and take the lesser splash. WIth hitscan, you can not avoid taking full damage.

3) You NEED to zoom for full damage and full accuracy. Without it you do little to no damage.
You're dead wrong on the damage part. It's not lowered that significantly.

4) Zooming in obviously narrows your vision.  Making you an easy target to surround.
Only if you don't exercise proper situational awareness.

5) Semi-smart players WILL try to surround and close the gap once the SS is close because:
a. Zooming makes tracking targets difficult if sight is broken. For you.
b. Furthermore, torso movement restricts aim, wide shots are difficult For you.

6) SS's move slow! Escape prove very difficult
lolno
A Brawler is slow. B-Classes are pretty easy to escape in, especially the SS since you engage at range in the first place.

7) You do not have the amour to tank very well.
Again, SS is a B-Class. You're not exactly a delicate flower. Hell, if you want to, you can easily buff your health up beyond 700

8)Your shots are not frequent. You're shots NEED to count.  You miss at this range, you're most likely dead.
​That's true for any burst fire class. You miss a shot, and you'll be severely punished.

Quote

Better yet, post me a vid with you against "great players."

Sure. Next time the Hawken Pub scrims happen when I can play, I'll record a few SS matches.
And while I'm recording footage, why don't you and Nept record some videos to prove you're at least competent at SS_

There's also the problem that people for Power Shot seem to be basing their argument on the idea that you need to kill a target for it to be useful. To imply that would be, as you guys seem fond of saying, oversimplifying.
There's incredible utility in the ability to instantly force an A or B Class target to retreat and repair.
There's tremendous power in instantly halving the health on a C-Class, entirely removing their health advantage.
The fact that you can kill targets in the space of a couple seconds (a feat no other class can pull off without items), is not the only factor in why Power Shot is overpowered.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, February 23 2013 - 01:42 AM.

[Beemann]

ITT we judge Asian's sharpshooter abilities based on his first vid on the class over a month ago, while describing "tough SS situations" that most decent players can get out of

[Onebullit]

i have voted for "do not change it" but i must admit that the powershot in combination with armor piercing ammunition is pretty strong.

One double shot will almost kill a 500 HP A-class.

Edited by Onebullit, February 23 2013 - 02:03 AM.

[Nept]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 23 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

Sure. Next time the Hawken Pub scrims happen when I can play, I'll record a few SS matches.
And while I'm recording footage, why don't you and Nept record some videos to prove you're at least competent at SS_

There's also the problem that people for Power Shot seem to be basing their argument on the idea that you need to kill a target for it to be useful. To imply that would be, as you guys seem fond of saying, oversimplifying.

Figured I'd get the “prove your skill response”, so I wrote this immediately after posting the video. Been waiting on you guys! As an aside, you can't expect to flaunt e-rep and not be called out on it.



Unfortunately, I've no time to fiddle with fraps and Hawken. As providence would have it, though, my first game back was caught on livestream. Not my perspective, but it'll suffice for proving competence.

http://www.twitch.tv...ius/b/369647665


I enter the game at 3:58 or so; 1v1 fights start around 4:01 (and occur sporadically throughout); and the 1v1 ss fights start shortly thereafter. If you watch the rocketeer moments, you'll note a few funny suicides. Please note that I don't often use items or abilities during pub play because I find that they detract from raw skill (and practice). My opponents typically have no such qualms.

1v1 sharpshooter fights take place at:

4:02:12
4:03:18
4:06:20
4:07:20

If you'd like to continue proving yourself, you're more than welcome to add me and join on my games. Unfortunately, my playtime's typically limited by papers; you're bound to find me online once in awhile, though.

Now that we've dispensed with e-peenery, let's get back to the problem. And yes, it's still oversimplification.  While I'm glad that you've gotten a grasp on the word, you'll notice that I've done nothing beyond note your limited perspective.  I've expressed no opinion re: powershot because my point is that you can evaluate neither its place nor the sharpshooter's without understanding the entire situation.

So yes, you're absolutely right: the entire picture has to be taken into account. Now you need only extend that revelation to your own opinions while dropping the Tu Quoque fallacy.

Edited by Nept, February 23 2013 - 02:29 AM.

[Nept]

Beemann, on February 23 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

ITT we judge Asian's sharpshooter abilities based on his first vid on the class over a month ago, while describing "tough SS situations" that most decent players can get out of

Ugh, don't make me point this fuzzy bunny out. I get that you're attempting to defend your buddy and all, but the Sharpshooter in his video is level 25.  By level 25, I'd expect greater competence than what was displayed.

[Beemann]

One entirely random video from a month ago != his usual output now. Asian doesn't cherry pick his videos, he just takes them and uploads them, sometimes at random
BTW a UT fragvid (IE cherrypicked kills from another game) and 1v1 SS fights against Xacius (read: fights against someone who mains infil, done outside of a team-based scenario) aren't really appropriate evidence

Edited by Beemann, February 23 2013 - 02:36 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Nept, on February 23 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

- video -

Oh look, a kill reel.
It's not like it's made up of cherry picked moments that paint you in a good light or anything...
OH WAIT.

Quote

Unfortunately, I've no time to fiddle with fraps and Hawken. As providence would have it, though, my first game back was caught on livestream. Not my perspective, but it'll suffice for proving competence.

And you're incapable of taking screenshots after a match ends_

Quote

I enter the game at 3:58 or so; 1v1 fights start around 4:01 (and occur sporadically throughout); and the 1v1 ss fights start shortly thereafter. If you watch the rocketeer moments, you'll note a few funny suicides. Please note that I don't often use items or abilities during pub play because I find that they detract from raw skill (and practice). My opponents typically have no such qualms.

Well, that was extremely underwhelming. Funny that you criticize me when you're playing like that...

Quote

you'll notice that I've done nothing beyond note your limited perspective.

Yep. So limited. It's not like I specifically state earlier in the thread that you have to account for everything.

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

When thinking about game balance, you have to account for everything.

OH...
WAIT...

[Nept]

That UT video was quickly compiled from 3-4 maps with friends. Notice the (lack of) map variety and the piss-poor editing.  And yes, non-hitscan kills were largely edited out because the video's meant to demonstrate hitscan.  Go figure.  If you're especially interested, I've still the original demos.  Alternatively, I'd love a personal demonstration of your image recognition abilities.

Also, remember that asian asked for competence.  Those videos easily show competence, even to someone struggling hard to resist the fact.

And let's not forget this: [quote name='Nept]Ugh' date=' don't make me point this fuzzy bunny out. I get that you're attempting to defend your buddy and all, but the Sharpshooter in his video is level 25.  By level 25, I'd expect greater competence than what was displayed.[/quote']

1) The "entirely random video from a month ago" might not equal his "usual output now", but it does demonstrate his abilities after having leveled a sharpshooter to 25 (and probably then some).  That fact is significant, and shouldn't be discarded: it's not as though he were running a sharpshooter for the second time.

2) You can quickly tell someone's competence with FPS' by the surety of their mouse movements.

3) While teamplay demonstrates coordination, team tactics, and situational awareness, I'm more interested in 1v1 duels when evaluating individual skill levels.  A good duelist can be taught teamplay, but good teamplayers can't necessarily become good duelists.

4) I don't typically take screenshots, asian.  They show little.  As I said, you're free to add me if you're interested in proving yourself.  Remember that you made your "ability" a topic of conversation.  

5) Re: "underwhelming".  Check how many shots were missed, and notice how many times he was hit on the dodge.  Also note the health orbs, turrets, and power use.  I can safely say that Xacius' performance in that match significantly exceeded the abilities displayed in asian's video.  Perhaps asian's improved since then, but I'll believe that when I see it.

6) Here's the main point: [quote=Nept]
Now that we've dispensed with e-peenery, let's get back to the problem. And yes, it's still oversimplification.  While I'm glad that you've gotten a grasp on the word, you'll notice that I've done nothing beyond note your limited perspective.  I've expressed no opinion re: powershot because my point is that you can evaluate neither its place nor the sharpshooter's without understanding the entire situation.

So yes, you're absolutely right: the entire picture has to be taken into account. Now you need only extend that revelation to your own opinions while dropping the Tu Quoque fallacy.[/quote]


P.S. Asian, saying that you have to take everything into account means little when you refuse to admit your obviously slanted perspective and the oversimplifications you've brought to the discussion.  What's the saying_  Practice what you preach_

Remember this part_  You know, the part with the point_ [quote name='Nept]So yes' date=' you're absolutely right: the entire picture has to be taken into account. Now you need only extend that revelation to your own opinions while dropping the Tu Quoque fallacy.[/quote']

*Edit* Been fun you two, but it's time to shift focus toward actual work.  See you tomorrow!

Edited by Nept, February 23 2013 - 03:26 AM.

[Gree]

What bothers me is that the SS became too easy to play.
Before the reaper patch, sharpshooters on matches were rare, because their ability wasn't that strong. I'm not saying that the powershot is OP, I'm saying that it allowed that a lot of people with no skill to use it, and allowed the SS to act in close range situations, wich is not his role. The powershot itself it's a good ability for a sniper mech, but it's not working.
That's why I think they should change the SS ability for one that promotes sniping and that it's harder to use too.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Nept, on February 23 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Also, remember that asian asked for competence.  Those videos easily show competence, even to someone struggling hard to resist the fact.

The frag video is a frag video. They can easily be tailored to make a person appear competent, even if they aren't. And the twitch stream is ambiguous at best. Watching from Xacius' viewpoint means we get a very limited idea of what's going on from your side of things. It becomes difficult to tell if and when you use items, and the use of your ability would not be entirely apparent, if at all.
Honestly, after browsing through your channel, I do believe you are competent, rather, more than competent. You've got some short, but good clips of continuous gameplay from various games that I actually thought worked better as demonstrations than the frag vid and twitch stream.

Quote

1) The "entirely random video from a month ago" might not equal his "usual output now", but it does demonstrate his abilities after having leveled a sharpshooter to 25 (and probably then some).  That fact is significant, and shouldn't be discarded: it's not as though he were running a sharpshooter for the second time.

Good thing I'm not claiming to be a great sharpshooter. Just a good one, better than average.
Fun fact: That video was made after several weeks of playing Brawler (my main) and CR-T exclusively. To say I was rusty would be an understatement.

Quote

3) While teamplay demonstrates coordination, team tactics, and situational awareness, I'm more interested in 1v1 duels when evaluating individual skill levels.  A good duelist can be taught teamplay, but good teamplayers can't necessarily become good duelists.

But teamplay, coordination, team tactics and situational awareness all play a part in why Power Shot is overpowered. I thought you were against oversimplification_

Quote

4) I don't typically take screenshots, asian.  They show little.  As I said, you're free to add me if you're interested in proving yourself.  Remember that you made your "ability" a topic of conversation.

Here's the thing.
You're the one who decided to make it personal, by giving a rather condescending negative criticism that was uncalled for. Why was it uncalled for_ Because look at the chain of events.
7r1p claimed that Beemann and I are basing our opinions purely on theorycrafting, rather than actually having played SS. I was pointing out that I did in fact play SS at a competent level and that means that I'm basing my opinions on experience, not assumptions.
But for some reason, you decided to take an outdated video of mine and review it, basically telling me "you suck." And for what reason_
None that I can see, unless you were trying to discredit my stance based on my apparent skill, since you didn't bother to connect it to your "oversimplification" argument.
So you're either taking a needless jab at me or using the very logical fallacy (tu quoque) that you've accused me of.

Quote

- oversimplification argument -

The most ironic part about this whole "you're oversimplifying" concept is, that's exactly what you've done to my argument. Actually, that's not true.
You entirely misrepresented what I said and was debating.
Despite the fact that I went out of my way to point out playing SS requires a knowledge of positioning and timing alongside the ability to aim, you decided to reduce and represent my argument as "point and click".
It's amazing that you claimed I was being disingenuous, when you pull actions like that, and portray my position as something so simple as "Sharpshooter is easy because it's just point and click" and then criticize me for not taking other factors into account.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, February 23 2013 - 05:16 AM.

[Akaon]

Nept, on February 22 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Nept, on February 21 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Stuff

Hitscan ignores the level of mobility. Rather than have an exchange in which a shot is fired through a combination of timing, prediction and aim, and is avoided using speed, timing and prediction, often with the help of cover, you simply have the skill required to hit a moving target
That's it
If you look at previous posts by Asian and myself, you'll find that we actually oppose the current splash radius present in the majority of explosive weapons. The issue here is that your argument is a red herring
So here are the primary issues

You're still oversimplifying.  Hitscan does not ignore mobility because shooters must enact the same mental calculations, sans lead.  Then, and as I've mentioned before, they have to take into account the zoom-in time.  Splash weaponry is significantly more forgiving, especially in a game as cover-heavy as Hawken; snipers are punished massively for missing.

And no, my argument is not a red herring.  When you balance from oversimplified positions, you make mistakes because you miss details - you miss the full picture.

You're both demonstrating incredible intransigence on an obvious error.  Until you're willing to consider the entire picture, you're in no position to suggest balance changes.

I agree that splash weapons are more forgiving. But i feel like you're forgetting about one thing in this post: Hitscan may require the same mental calculations in a sense, but it ignores any option to react that your opponent might get with other weapons. Once aimed and shot (assuming proper aim), it's a hit. A TOW missile being fired at you may be aimed really well and normally speaking, a guaranteed hit, but your target can dodge, alter his course (assuming you had to lead your target), etc. The lack of travel time makes this weapon very one sided and effectively removes most options to avoid the damage, other than making sure you never walk into the LoS of a SS.

[Kerc_Kersa]

Beemann, on February 22 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 22 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Ahh, I see what you mean (though isn't using a macro kinda like cheating_ To me it is like a lag-switch or a turbo-button, like on the old GC controllers ). I updated the OP and stated that the data does not take distance or flight time into consideration, just the raw damage each mech can do.

Also, I like your idea, but I want to add to it. What if instead of only marking 1 mech, it marked all mechs in your LoS_ Otherwise, the ability would not be much better than a radar scaner. (I will add your idea to the poll with your permission )

You cant stop people from using macros like you can lag switches and aimbots. Not only is it a convenience option, but you also have to consider the fact that you`re dealing with functions that come standard on most gaming mice

Additionally, I think you should have to hit the target to add them. The tradeoff should be the length of the target marking

Ok, I'll add it to the poll. Do you think the name Tracer Shot is good_ Also, do you think it should show the targets health_ Or would that be too much_