188 replies to this topic

[Umbre]

The_Silencer, on July 19 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

"Many words taken out of context"

Understood_

Thanks,
The_Silencer.

Silencer reminds me of Tommy Wiseau...

[Sylhiri]

N0stalgia, on July 19 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Where is that...

N0stalgia, on July 19 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Why go up against the sentient wall of text, Xacius_ He's not a man, hes a machine. And you will have to rest and eat, whereas he can just keep typing. Same for AJK. I tried once, but they'll just stomp you out until you give up because they never will. In the Hawken forums, they are everyone and they are no one. We have survived by hiding from them, by running from them, but they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys, which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them.

[The_Silencer]

Umbre, on July 19 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

The_Silencer, on July 19 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

"Many words taken out of context"

Understood_

Thanks,
The_Silencer.

Silencer reminds me of Tommy Wiseau...

Wake up and think out of the box for a while... please.

[Umbre]

The_Silencer, on July 19 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Wake up and think out of the box for a while... please.

Hahaha! What a story Mark!

[The_Silencer]

Umbre, on July 19 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

The_Silencer, on July 19 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Wake up and think out of the box for a while... please.

Hahaha! What a story Mark!

Pfft... whatever..

[Beemann]

Um... Silencer
2 things
1. That`s not subliminal
2. Subliminal messaging doesn't work. At best it `primes` a response. A person who is thirsty and was planning on buying a drink anyway might buy a coke after seeing a subliminal ad for it, but only if they honestly planned to get a drink in the first place

[KejiGoto]

AsianJoyKiller, on July 19 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

I find it amusing as his post contains all of what I said he does, personal attacks, lies and poisoning the well, thus proving my point.

What personal attacks_ From what I see Beeman came in out of left field and decided to make a jab at Xacius with a comment basically saying Xacius is incapable of having a reasonable discussion. The whole battle of the egos started there. Xacius even admitted to when he's had his numbers wrong from what I can see so I don't see how he's spreading lies unless you're talking about his mentioning about how you and others don't really play anymore though I've seen you and others in the Steel Killers say they don't play much these days.

And I find it funny that you claim he's poisoning the well when I've seen a ton of negativity from you over the past months. Whether it be acting like some sort of forum fuzzy bunny because someone created a thread that already existed and being incredibly sarcastic/rude in pointing this out or simply how you handle people in general. For example when ultramus commented about not wanting to see the EOC nerfed into the realm of being useless and you're response was a sarcastic dig at him. Yet we've seen weapons and abilities get knee jerk buffs and nerfs based on community feedback which I think warrants some concern it comes to approaching subjects like this. We saw the Sharpshooter become incredibly useless based on feedback then became incredibly overpowered based on more community feedback. You've also been incredibly negative before with your feedback on new additions to the game and I remember a time where I couldn't open a thread about the Technician without you in there posting about how the Technician was ruining the game and not understanding what the developers were thinking. If that isn't poisoning the well then I don't know what is.

Also the game goes beyond numbers like Xacius is saying and number crunching alone doesn't equate to knowing how the game plays. The developers themselves have stated this numerous times before. They've even stated that they want players to give feedback on how the game plays which is why we don't get a full breakdown of stats from them. Gameplay feel outweighs number crunching on the development side; this is fact. So I find it hard for people to weigh in on a subject using strictly numbers and rarely actually playing the game considering that goes against how the developers want feedback to be given.

Now climb down off your high horse (this goes for everyone in here), put your egos aside, and let's attempt to have a civilized discussion about how the EOC instead of turning this into a debate of who is right and who is wrong. Everyone here is leaving out certain elements of the EOC and focusing on certain issues which fits their latest complaint. Numbers alone don't account for performance and you can't discuss performance without talking numbers. Neither of those parts separately will make up the full debate.

And for the record I think the damage should be nerfed slightly for the EOC and how long mines last should be reduced as well to cut down on spam. Perhaps placing a limit on the mines on the ground to a single volley or a volley and a half then when the next is fired those already deployed explode_ You can typically tell who isn't that great with the EOC when they reduce themselves to spamming mines everywhere in hopes of nailing their target; I know I'm guilty of doing that when I get into panic mode and switch on the spray and pray switch.

[The_Silencer]

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Um... Silencer
2 things
1. That`s not subliminal
2. Subliminal messaging doesn't work. At best it `primes` a response. A person who is thirsty and was planning on buying a drink anyway might buy a coke after seeing a subliminal ad for it, but only if they honestly planned to get a drink in the first place

That's not, doesn't.

Edit: And back to topic: The EOC is OP. Undirect and direct damage points are excessive, plus the many other issues the guys have mentioned in here. You've not to convince me and I hope that I won't be disqualified because I reached this conclusion. I'm free to think whatever I want. And no one mess with Zohan. -I could post a vid as well but I won't..

Edited by The_Silencer, July 19 2013 - 04:13 PM.

[Guiotine]

Keji, I just wanted to point out you seem to have misdefined "poisoning the well". Your post makes it sound like it means spreading negativity, when it is really a logical fallacy based on making a statement then making an ad hominem about anyone who disagrees. An example is: " This game sucks and anyone who disagrees is a blind fanboy".

If I misread that or you know that already, sorry, just felt like like I should bring that up

[hendman]

I can't believe this thread made it to 8 pages........when every fuzzy bunny match you enter has 3 or more eoc spammers on each team then it is pretty obvious the weapon is overpowered.

[The_Silencer]

Guiotine, on July 19 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Keji, I just wanted to point out you seem to have misdefined "poisoning the well". Your post makes it sound like it means spreading negativity, when it is really a logical fallacy based on making a statement then making an ad hominem about anyone who disagrees. An example is: " This game sucks and anyone who disagrees is a blind fanboy".

If I misread that or you know that already, sorry, just felt like like I should bring that up

Misdefined, poisoning, negativity, fallacy, disagrees, sucks, more disgrees, "blind fanboy", misread, "sorry"...

"You too, Brutus, my son"

It's an easy game as can you see, believe me when I simply say that.

Edited by The_Silencer, July 19 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[KejiGoto]

Guiotine, on July 19 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Keji, I just wanted to point out you seem to have misdefined "poisoning the well". Your post makes it sound like it means spreading negativity, when it is really a logical fallacy based on making a statement then making an ad hominem about anyone who disagrees. An example is: " This game sucks and anyone who disagrees is a blind fanboy".

If I misread that or you know that already, sorry, just felt like like I should bring that up

My bad on that but even so AFK takes the approach of he's right and others are wrong. Of all the users on the forums I get that vibe the most from him and it has bugged me for some time which is why I'm finally saying something. I'm sure I'll hear back from him about how I'm wrong and what not.

The term makes a little more sense and even with that in mind I don't really see Xacius taking that stance here beyond "play the game more and I'll be willing to listen to you with more of an open mind." Heck Xacius has admitted more than once he was wrong about something and agreed with users about ideas and suggestions being brought up.

Edit: Also thank you for pointing that out to me, didn't realize I had defined the term incorrectly and feel somewhat foolish for that. Knowledge is power right_

Edited by KejiGoto, July 19 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Gookywun]

hendman, on July 19 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

I can't believe this thread made it to 8 pages........when every fuzzy bunny match you enter has 3 or more eoc spammers on each team then it is pretty obvious the weapon is overpowered.

I'm glad the community can see this thread and that it has gathered a lot of attention, these are the sort of tests i believe help the game most and help the players give imput about what they actually think about certain weapons in this game without resorting to a frag video of 1v1's and pure damage outputs.

Edited by Gookywun, July 19 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

KejiGoto, on July 19 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

What personal attacks_

Let me put it this way...
How many of Xacius's arguments are based around discussing the facts and other stuff about the EOC itself, versus how much is about attacking the people who are discussing the EOC_
Go through his posts and count that up. There's your answer.

Quote

If that isn't poisoning the well then I don't know what is.

That's pretty clear.

Quote

So I find it hard for people to weigh in on a subject using strictly numbers and rarely actually playing the game considering that goes against how the developers want feedback to be given.

Here's the problem with that. There are so many people who make the assertion that SK talks about balance almost purely on the numbers.

But that's wrong.
We don't.
We play the game and learn how it feels. The numbers we've collected merely help us discuss what we've found in greater detail. Since we know how things feel, that allows us to use the numbers to more accurately predict how different elements balance relate to each other.

We don't talk balance on the basis of numbers purely. The numbers are just a way for us to quantify what we have felt and discuss balance in a less subjective manner. After all, it's much easier to wrap your head around a statement like "I think it needs to be 10% faster" compared to "I think it needs to be a tiny bit faster"

Quote

Now climb down off your high horse (this goes for everyone in here), put your egos aside, and let's attempt to have a civilized discussion about how the EOC instead of turning this into a debate of who is right and who is wrong.

When somebody says something that is objectively wrong (ie: misstating documented facts), it's hardly a debate to point it out and correct them.

Quote

And for the record I think the damage should be nerfed slightly for the EOC and how long mines last should be reduced as well to cut down on spam. Perhaps placing a limit on the mines on the ground to a single volley or a volley and a half then when the next is fired those already deployed explode_ You can typically tell who isn't that great with the EOC when they reduce themselves to spamming mines everywhere in hopes of nailing their target; I know I'm guilty of doing that when I get into panic mode and switch on the spray and pray switch.

The only real problem I have with this sort of way to balance the EOC is that it really shifts it towards being a more-powerful HEAT with extra utility and a somewhat higher skill requirement.
It'd really be a shame for the EOC to start to lose it's personality.

[M4st0d0n]

Guys chill out, we're not betatesters giving feedback on the game balance anymore. That's the job of the new Advanced Batallion.

I guess that makes us the Retarded Batallion.

[Gookywun]

M4st0d0n, on July 19 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Guys chill out, we're not betatesters giving feedback on the game balance anymore. That's the job of the new Advanced Batallion.

I guess that makes us the Retarded Batallion.

You do know what the Advanced Batallion IS, right_

[AsianJoyKiller]

M4st0d0n, on July 19 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Guys chill out, we're not betatesters giving feedback on the game balance anymore. That's the job of the new Advanced Batallion.

I guess that makes us the Retarded Batallion.

I would say think of the AB testers as "Alpha" testers of sorts. A sort of unpaid QA so when beta testers get to try out a patch they don't have to deal with horrific gamebreaking bugs.

[Xacius]

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Personal attacks_  I'm merely calling what I see to reinforce a point made by another user. Name anywhere in this thread where I made a personal attack.  

You mean an instance in which you attack the maker of an argument instead of the argument itself_ Here we go:

Quote

You're one of the only players in this game that holds such a sentiment.  I've been in matches with you, and you're primarily a Flak Scout user.  I'd wager that EOC's give you a hard time.  I'd like to see your reasoning as to why the weapon is overpowered, as well as your proposed changes for it.

I asked him what his opinion was and stated that he's one of the only players I've seen with the viewpoint that the EOC is OP.  I merely asked him to provide clarification.  How is that attacking him_

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

You then start a pissing match when Gookywun claims you haven't played against him enough to know his usual playing habits (and your evidence is based off of three matches played on US East)

Wrong.  The pissing contest began after this point:

Gookywun, on July 17 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Sorry Xacius you know too little to make me have to be reasonable to you and i haven't touched Flak Scout since the first 2 weeks of Open Beta, you have obviously never played against me seeing as i am based on UK servers too.

He literally said "you know too little to make me have to be reasonable to you..."

Up until that point, I was completely reasonable, asking why he thought the EOC was overpowered while providing my own input.  Was my reaction justified_  fuzzy bunny no, but the reasoning behind my pissing contest was far different than that which you've suggested.

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Quote

It's better than sitting here patrolling forums for a game that you no longer play.  lol.  

Quote

All you do is sit on these forums, crunch numbers, and complain.  It's to the point where you're barely even offering anything constructive.  You're merely focusing on someone being wrong, relative to your own opinions or outdated information.

Also worth noting, I like how my information is being called outdated by someone who has consistently made objectively incorrect statements about the EOC

You misunderstood the wording from my comment.  Read my italicized sentence one more time and then look at the definition of the word "or"

or: —used as a function word to indicate an alternative <coffee or tea> <sink or swim>, the equivalent or substitutive character of two words or phrases <lessen or abate>, or approximation or uncertainty <in five or six days>

Some of the statements I made about the EOC were based on outdated information no longer relative to current Hawken.  I got the numbers wrong on a previous build. Yes_  You still have yet to address my points and balance suggestions because you are still stuck on me being wrong about a previous build's numbers.  Get over it.  It does nothing to support your argument, which has been directed solely at me since your very first post.  

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

And of course the one AJK called you out for in the first place

Quote

Welcome to arguing with the Steel Killers.

They don't play the game, but they know the numbers so they must be right!

How is that a personal attack_ You've said it yourself:

"a large chunk of our playerbase is on hiatus due to work, school, etc.. I've been trying to get Hawken stable (because in addition to FPS drops, I've been having weird lag issues even on US West)"

All I, as well as many others, see from you guys is forum patrolling.  You test numbers when the most recent patch hits, but after that you disappear.  

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

You guys tend to have decent ideas regarding balance, but as soon as someone disagrees with you they're automatically wrong.  

No, they're only wrong when the statement they make is proven to be false, and several of your statements have been. In fact, most of what you've said about the EOC, about my clan, and about several other participants in this thread has been wrong, and whether that's out of ignorance of the truth or out of malicious intent is beyond me a this point
I've seen it many, many times.  

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Everything Ultramus said about Beemann was spot on.  He'll focus on points from a user's post that were incorrect and use it as a basis for why they're wrong about a different subject.  He'll even make a post dedicated to why that specific user is wrong, publicly calling out their
name in the process (harassment by your standards, but that didn't stop you from hitting the "Like This" button*).  

So to get this straight, if you make a comment, and I quote that comment and explain why the statement you made is actually untrue, then I've started talking about a different subject_ I'm pretty sure that's just a response bro

You're sidestepping the point.  If I've made a comment about outdated information and I'm wrong, then I'm wrong about that outdated information.  You're using that instance of me being wrong as a backup for your argument regarding my knowledge of the current EOC, as suggested by your comment here:

Beemann, on July 18 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

No you don't. You've shown very clearly that you don't know the past or present numbers for the EOC. Instead, you'd rather make up values and special scenarios in which the EOC is allegedly balanced

At what point did I ever say anything incorrect about the current EOC's numbers_  You're making an inference based off of an entirely different point.  My initial statement remains uncontested (and supported by your above comment): You focus on points from a user's post that were incorrect and use it as a basis for why they're wrong about numbers or information in a different circumstance.

Edited by Xacius, July 19 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Flagge69]

Sylhiri, on July 19 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Play this song and watch the gif above ...

[XenoMorph]

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Personal attacks_  I'm merely calling what I see to reinforce a point made by another user. Name anywhere in this thread where I made a personal attack.  

You mean an instance in which you attack the maker of an argument instead of the argument itself_ Here we go:

Quote

You're one of the only players in this game that holds such a sentiment.  I've been in matches with you, and you're primarily a Flak Scout user.  I'd wager that EOC's give you a hard time.  I'd like to see your reasoning as to why the weapon is overpowered, as well as your proposed changes for it.

I asked him what his opinion was and stated that he's one of the only players I've seen with the viewpoint that the EOC is OP.  I merely asked him to provide clarification.  How is that attacking him_

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

You then start a pissing match when Gookywun claims you haven't played against him enough to know his usual playing habits (and your evidence is based off of three matches played on US East)

Wrong.  The pissing contest began after this point:

Gookywun, on July 17 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Sorry Xacius you know too little to make me have to be reasonable to you and i haven't touched Flak Scout since the first 2 weeks of Open Beta, you have obviously never played against me seeing as i am based on UK servers too.

He literally said "you know too little to make me have to be reasonable to you..."

Up until that point, I was completely reasonable, asking why he thought the EOC was overpowered while providing my own input.  Was my reaction justified_  fuzzy bunny no, but the reasoning behind my pissing contest was far different than that which you've suggested.

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Quote

It's better than sitting here patrolling forums for a game that you no longer play.  lol.  

Quote

All you do is sit on these forums, crunch numbers, and complain.  It's to the point where you're barely even offering anything constructive.  You're merely focusing on someone being wrong, relative to your own opinions or outdated information.

Also worth noting, I like how my information is being called outdated by someone who has consistently made objectively incorrect statements about the EOC

You misunderstood the wording from my comment.  Read my italicized sentence one more time and then look at the definition of the word "or"

or: —used as a function word to indicate an alternative <coffee or tea> <sink or swim>, the equivalent or substitutive character of two words or phrases <lessen or abate>, or approximation or uncertainty <in five or six days>

Some of the statements I made about the EOC were based on outdated information no longer relative to current Hawken.  I got the numbers wrong on a previous build. Yes_  You still have yet to address my points and balance suggestions because you are still stuck on me being wrong about a previous build's numbers.  Get over it.  It does nothing to support your argument, which has been directed solely at me since your very first post.  

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

And of course the one AJK called you out for in the first place

Quote

Welcome to arguing with the Steel Killers.

They don't play the game, but they know the numbers so they must be right!

How is that a personal attack_ You've said it yourself:

"a large chunk of our playerbase is on hiatus due to work, school, etc.. I've been trying to get Hawken stable (because in addition to FPS drops, I've been having weird lag issues even on US West)"

All I, as well as many others, see from you guys is forum patrolling.  You test numbers when the most recent patch hits, but after that you disappear.  

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

You guys tend to have decent ideas regarding balance, but as soon as someone disagrees with you they're automatically wrong.  

No, they're only wrong when the statement they make is proven to be false, and several of your statements have been. In fact, most of what you've said about the EOC, about my clan, and about several other participants in this thread has been wrong, and whether that's out of ignorance of the truth or out of malicious intent is beyond me a this point
I've seen it many, many times.  

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Everything Ultramus said about Beemann was spot on.  He'll focus on points from a user's post that were incorrect and use it as a basis for why they're wrong about a different subject.  He'll even make a post dedicated to why that specific user is wrong, publicly calling out their
name in the process (harassment by your standards, but that didn't stop you from hitting the "Like This" button*).  

So to get this straight, if you make a comment, and I quote that comment and explain why the statement you made is actually untrue, then I've started talking about a different subject_ I'm pretty sure that's just a response bro

You're sidestepping the point.  If I've made a comment about outdated information and I'm wrong, then I'm wrong about that outdated information.  You're using that instance of me being wrong as a backup for your argument regarding my knowledge of the current EOC, as suggested by your comment here:

Beemann, on July 18 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

No you don't. You've shown very clearly that you don't know the past or present numbers for the EOC. Instead, you'd rather make up values and special scenarios in which the EOC is allegedly balanced

At what point did I ever say anything incorrect about the current EOC's numbers_  You're making an inference based off of an entirely different point.  My initial statement remains uncontested (and supported by your above comment): You focus on points from a user's post that were incorrect and use it as a basis for why they're wrong about numbers or information in a different circumstance.

ONE V ONE ME BRO