188 replies to this topic

[h0B0]

M4st0d0n, on July 19 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Guys chill out, we're not betatesters giving feedback on the game balance anymore. That's the job of the new Advanced Batallion.

I guess that makes us the Retarded Batallion.

Not sure if sarcasm...

This is how i see AB and the minigun represents bugs.

[Gookywun]

Quote

You're one of the only players in this game that holds such a sentiment.  I've been in matches with you, and you're primarily a Flak Scout user.  I'd wager that EOC's give you a hard time.  I'd like to see your reasoning as to why the weapon is overpowered, as well as your proposed changes for it.

If anyone got that kind of response Xacius then i'm pretty sure they would react in the same way. You're making false claims to start with and by actually trying to ignore my point by belittling my non-existant gameplay that you for one have only witnessed once or twice (In the span of 6 months), personally i think that is a very poor way to respond to such a topic as this... also the 1v1 callouts to myself_ Please.

Edited by Gookywun, July 19 2013 - 04:58 PM.

[M4st0d0n]

Gookywun, on July 19 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

M4st0d0n, on July 19 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Guys chill out, we're not betatesters giving feedback on the game balance anymore. That's the job of the new Advanced Batallion.

I guess that makes us the Retarded Batallion.

You do know what the Advanced Batallion IS, right_

I didnt quite understood the logic of it... You've got a few hundreds players but they can't provide consistent gamedata for balance, so you work with a smaller group, I guess. Anyway, I liked your post, I liked the fact that you took time to edit a video to show your point. I'm just afraid we're arguing on something already obsolete.

[M4st0d0n]

AsianJoyKiller, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

M4st0d0n, on July 19 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Guys chill out, we're not betatesters giving feedback on the game balance anymore. That's the job of the new Advanced Batallion.

I guess that makes us the Retarded Batallion.

I would say think of the AB testers as "Alpha" testers of sorts. A sort of unpaid QA so when beta testers get to try out a patch they don't have to deal with horrific gamebreaking bugs.

So they'll have the chance to play closed alpha. Kool!

I'm glad I wont have to endure those gamebreaking bugs I filled reports with anymore.

Edited by M4st0d0n, July 19 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[Beemann]

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

I asked him what his opinion was and stated that he's one of the only players I've seen with the viewpoint that the EOC is OP.  I merely asked him to provide clarification.  How is that attacking him_

Your statement was that A: he's a flak scout user and that B: you suspect that EOC's give him a hard time
You basically dismissed his experience as being that of someone who just gets owned by the EOC, and made statements about his overall playstyle from playing three matches with him. He then called you out for being wrong on that and for making a series of misleading statements in the post prior

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Wrong.  The pissing contest began after this point:

Gookywun, on July 17 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Sorry Xacius you know too little to make me have to be reasonable to you and i haven't touched Flak Scout since the first 2 weeks of Open Beta, you have obviously never played against me seeing as i am based on UK servers too.

He literally said "you know too little to make me have to be reasonable to you..."

Up until that point, I was completely reasonable, asking why he thought the EOC was overpowered while providing my own input.  Was my reaction justified_  fuzzy bunny no, but the reasoning behind my pissing contest was far different than that which you've suggested.

Nope, you kicked it off by basically belittling him, and by making a bunch of statements that A: you didn't back and B: are basically either untrue, misleading or irrelevant. You also went out of your way to belittle the original post, and ignored it in favour of things like the DPS of the EOC

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

You misunderstood the wording from my comment.  Read my italicized sentence one more time and then look at the definition of the word "or"

Oh I'm so very sorry, I didn't realize that I had the choice between either having my info be outdated, or "simply my opinion" (read: not factual)
I'm so happy to know that you haven't gone out of your way to be a condescending jerk about this

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

or: —used as a function word to indicate an alternative <coffee or tea> <sink or swim>, the equivalent or substitutive character of two words or phrases <lessen or abate>, or approximation or uncertainty <in five or six days>

Oh wait, on top of being INITIALLY condescending, you've chosen to ignore how incredibly condescending you were AND top it all off by making an even bigger ass of yourself
Fantastic.

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Some of the statements I made about the EOC were based on outdated information no longer relative to current Hawken.  I got the numbers wrong on a previous build. Yes_  You still have yet to address my points and balance suggestions because you are still stuck on me being wrong about a previous build's numbers.  Get over it.  It does nothing to support your argument, which has been directed solely at me since your very first post.  

You have yet to list anything that isn't misleading, irrelevant or flat out incorrect, which does nothing to so much as form the basis for a reasonable argument

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

How is that a personal attack_ You've said it yourself:

"a large chunk of our playerbase is on hiatus due to work, school, etc.. I've been trying to get Hawken stable (because in addition to FPS drops, I've been having weird lag issues even on US West)"

You understand that there's a thing called a general statement right_ Basically when you make a statement about a group, the statement itself is, by default,

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

All I, as well as many others, see from you guys is forum patrolling.  You test numbers when the most recent patch hits, but after that you disappear.  

That's probably a result of different game modes being played, as well as the possibility of different time slots as far as game activity goes. Poetess is usually on later in the evening when she has time, AJK and h0b0 are fairly sporadic. tman and Umbre are on fairly frequently though

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

You're sidestepping the point.  If I've made a comment about outdated information and I'm wrong, then I'm wrong about that outdated information.  You're using that instance of me being wrong as a backup for your argument regarding my knowledge of the current EOC, as suggested by your comment here:

No, my point is that you yet to have a statement that isn't misleading(Ultramus did something similar with the TOW burst comment),  or wrong. You haven't displayed that you understand the current numbers behind the EOC, or the strength of burst in Hawken right now

Xacius, on July 19 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

At what point did I ever say anything incorrect about the current EOC's numbers_  You're making an inference based off of an entirely different point.  My initial statement remains uncontested (and supported by your above comment): You focus on points from a user's post that were incorrect and use it as a basis for why they're wrong about numbers or information in a different circumstance.

Which initial statement_ The one where you ignore the OP and talk about DPS_ The one where you compare the DPS on a BURST weapon to one on a SUSTAINED FIRE weapon_
Still falls under misleading

[KejiGoto]

AsianJoyKiller, on July 19 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

-Removed to cut down on filler-

1.) Xacius didn't cast the first stone, Beeman did by immediately calling him out as too immature to have a reasonable discussion on the subject. From there it became a pissing match between the pair that has only escalated as time has gone on and has carried on for far too long. From where I'm seeing both sides are guilty of personal attacks but he definitely kick this little war off.

2.) Even if you guys base your discussion off actual play you've said it yourself that you rarely play anymore and I haven't seen you in-game since our players versus developers match some time ago. When you do have discussions it tends to rely heavily on numbers alone and seems to ignore certain characteristics of the EOC such as how it fires a string of pucks which all need to connect to maximize damage. If I've missed where this is addressed then I apologize. However when you're rarely seen in-game and readily admit yourself(ves) that you don't play much someone jumping to the assumption that a vast majority of your side of the debate revolves around numbers only isn't that outrageous.

I'm seeing a lot of "The EOC is capable of X amount of damage and that is ridiculous" and not much of taking into account actual gameplay such as spread, how it fires, and travel speed.

3.) I'm not talking about getting facts wrong and as I've already pointed out Xacius has admitted when he's been wrong about numbers. Hell I just admitted I had the wrong use of "poisoning the well" when I responded to your prior comment. I'm talking about the approach to balancing the EOC and what makes it overpowered. There seems to be a lot of "I'm right and you're wrong so shut up" going on in here and it is getting old. The weapon isn't perfect, that much has been agreed upon, but to the degree of how overpowered it is and how it should be handled is a matter of personal opinion and not fact. For some they see the end result and think overpowered, for others they see how the weapon handles and think the end result is justified based on the amount of skill it takes to use the weapon effectively. That is opinion and neither side is wrong. That is what I'm talking about.

4.) At last an actual discussion for the topic at hand. The EOC isn't really a better version of the Heat Cannon simply because of how it fires it's payload. The Heat requires the player to connect a single shot to deal maximize damage and only needs to land one shot near the target to deal the maximum AOE damage. That's not how the EOC functions by a long shot. As I said earlier it fires a string of pucks which all need to connect to maximize its damage output. This string can be partially dodged after the first connects, it spreads over distance making connecting a full charge very difficult at long range if not impossible. Even at medium range the EOC can be a pain to deal full damage. And when doing the common tactic of firing at a target's feet this doesn't mean every puck will connect and/or detonate since it doesn't explode on contact.

Numerous times I've seen players walk away from a string of pucks fired at their feet with pucks still active on the ground and their health barely impacted by my volley. While the feet is a great way to deal damage and deny area it isn't a sure fire way to deal the maximum damage the EOC has. Based on my experience with the Infiltrator (some 80 hours logged on EOC since stat reset with Tech patch), Raider, and Rocketeer the EOC is best capable of dealing its maximum payload at close range. Even then you walk a fine line due to its ability to damage its user plus the slower rate of fire makes it not very useful in CQC situations especially when you look at how it fires a string of pucks instead of a single shot or cluster.

The Heat Cannon on the other hand is fires in a straight line and requires a single shot to connect in order to deal its maximum damage. It may not pack the punch of the EOC but it makes up for that in accuracy, lack of spread, faster charge time, and easier follow up uncharged shot. The Heat Cannon is also more effective in CQC situations (from my experience and again all of this is my opinion) because it can deal faster shots and does so in a single payload which even if it misses and lands near the target will cause some form of damage.

Now I do believe the sound issue for hit detection needs to be fixed ASAP and the mines are ridiculous as well in their current form. However given the amount of skill it takes to land a full volley I think the damage is fitting that it deals when you manage to do so. No other weapon in the game (outside of Hellfires which have a lock on feature) requires you to land a string of shots in order to deal the maximum amount of damage.

[Daronicus]

Beemann, on July 19 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

You have yet to list anything that isn't misleading, irrelevant or flat out incorrect, which does nothing to so much as form the basis for a reasonable argument

At the risk of getting myself involved in this war...

This comment really annoyed me.  You want reasoned debate_  Don't reduce someone's arguments like this.  Because he's brought up plenty of stuff that many of us don't find irrelevant or misleading (like the fact that the weapon's long charge time leaves you vulnerable).  Just because you think the balance on the weapon isn't right and the liabilities do not sufficiently make up for the strengths does not make a disagreement irrelevant.

Like, when people are in here, criticizing your "I'm right; you're wrong and shut up" attitude, that's what they're talking about.  You are not the sole arbiter of what is balanced, and you don't get to throw any contrary arguments out as irrelevant and misleading.

Edited by Daronicus, July 19 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[IllustriousFox]

Daronicus, on July 19 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

At the risk of getting myself involved in this war...

This comment really annoyed me.  You want reasoned debate_  Don't reduce someone's arguments like this.  Because he's brought up plenty of stuff that many of us don't find irrelevant or misleading (like the fact that the weapon's long charge time leaves you vulnerable).  Just because you think the balance on the weapon isn't right and the liabilities do not sufficiently make up for the strengths does not make a disagreement irrelevant.

Like, when people are in here, criticizing your "I'm right; you're wrong and shut up" attitude, that's what they're talking about.  You are not the sole arbiter of what is balanced, and you don't get to throw any contrary arguments out as irrelevant and misleading.

Don't waste your time, they're all fuzzy bunny idiots.

Edited by IllustriousFox, July 19 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[Teljaxx]

Alright, I am here to put an end to this argument once and for all!

To sum up my stance on the EOC: It is a bit too powerful, it probably would have worked better as a secondary, and either the mines or the damage need a reduction to their effectiveness.

And this is why I am right:

Spoiler

So bow before my mighty nuclear logic!

Edited by Teljaxx, July 19 2013 - 07:12 PM.

[N0stalgia]

I would like to interject!















































But I wont.

Edited by N0stalgia, July 19 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[Goyo]

The EOC kinda sucked not too long ago.  The only people that used it were people playing Hawken in hard mode. It is what you chose to give yourself a handicap.

Through that process people learned how to use this weapon very effectively.

Now EOC is slightly OP AND people know how to use it well.

I am sure EOC will return to a more balanced state sometime soonish.

[Ker4u]

Goyo, on July 19 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

The EOC kinda sucked not too long ago.  The only people that used it were people playing Hawken in hard mode. It is what you chose to give yourself a handicap.

Through that process people learned how to use this weapon very effectively.

Now EOC is slightly OP AND people know how to use it well.

I am sure EOC will return to a more balanced state sometime soonish.

i don't think eoc sucked 5 months ago when it had 210 damage(or was it even more_),  after that 2 second mine buff people started wining just because they was it more often

Edited by Ker4u, July 19 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[angryhampster]

eoc still has it's weaknesses..

i was in a few scenarios where my assault rifle would have ended the fight hours ago.  =(, and got killed.

u gotta recharge, so that's ilke 2-3 seconds delay,  and everytime you sprint, you lose ur charge.    and u can't be completely fully  aggressive as if you were the assault anymore.

[Sylhiri]

Ker4u, on July 19 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

i don't think eoc sucked 5 months ago when it had 210 damage(or was it even more_),  after that 2 second mine buff people started wining just because they was it more often

I'm sure he was referring to the time the EOC mines had horrible prox detonation to the point where you could step on it and it wouldn't go off making you need direct hits and the heat gen was so monstrous that after a few shots you were overheated.

[wen87n]

fuzzy bunny must be killed by EOC too often I guess

[-Tj-]

Man, that was quite a read... 9 pages, and likely more to come.

Fuzzy_Bunny, on July 19 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

How about making the pucks/mines, once they've landed in an area, destructible.  Perhaps if they are too small to shoot at, have the pucks be bigger, or just make the invisible kill box bigger.  This might add another twist/variable in fights.  Those spending time clearing them, will spend less time providing cover fire, etc.

I've had this thought for a long time now, and was actually going to suggest it before I came across your post.

One of my biggest issues with the EOC is that the pucks stay too long. I don't mind that they do, it's that there's nothing you can do about it once they're there. That goes for both my own EOC pucks and others' pucks. Once the enemy is destroyed or flees and pucks are still there, I sometimes have to wait for them to go off before I can walk anywhere (you know, to keep the radar signature down). Let them be destructible via even their own detonations. Heck, make them destructible mid-flight. Keep the splash damage when they're destroyed, or perhaps reduce it. If it still feels OP maybe it can be removed altogether.

If you lay down 12 or more pucks in the same spot, they're volatile till the last set self-destructs. That's a long time. If they all exploded the moment the first set goes off, then the maximum amount of time the pucks will be there is only as long as the first's lifetime.

Destroyable EOCs would also mean more tactical opportunities, which I'm all for. For example, if someone's laying EOCs in a fight, and they start walking over them, I could shoot their pucks to do more damage to them (suicide.._).

I'm actually ok with the direct damage the EOCs do. As has been said by others, the individual pucks don't cause as much damage as when they all connect, and the spread makes it difficult to line them all up every time. Against a fast-moving opponent, I usually end up spraying the ground with pucks because hitting them dead-on is near-hopeless. In doing so, it takes longer to kill them, if I manage to do so before they kill me, or one of their friends shows up. Most of my EOC kills come from sneak attacks in the form of an alpha strike, or from laying mines.

Also, when an opponent faces me with an EOC, it's rare that in-flight EOCs kill me. It's almost always from me walking over their pucks because I didn't see them, or when I'm low on health and they get some good shots in.

I say fix the sound and hit detection problems with it first, maybe make them destroyable, and then we all come back to see if people still feel it's OP.

[ropefish]

haha haha preaty blue lights come out from the gun ouo

[ReachH]

Fuzzy_Bunny, on July 19 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

How about this new(_) idea_

How about making the pucks/mines, once they've landed in an area, destructible.  Perhaps if they are too small to shoot at, have the pucks be bigger, or just make the invisible kill box bigger.  This might add another twist/variable in fights.  Those spending time clearing them, will spend less time providing cover fire, etc.

Destructible mines is an interesting idea, it provides a way to transfer weapon heat to an opponent, as well as giving trace weapons a use.

Leonhardt, on July 19 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

I have been waiting to use that one for AGES!

Just another beautiful day on the Hawken Community Forums.

Edited by ReachH, July 20 2013 - 02:31 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

EOC is OP because they can generate fireflys of death. There is numerous time when the pukes sticked to some invisible wall making them floating and hardly avoidable. And then again, the problem might be that walls are OP too. Cant wait for them to be destroyable items.

[Fuzzy_Bunny]

-Tj-, on July 20 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Man, that was quite a read... 9 pages, and likely more to come.

Fuzzy_Bunny, on July 19 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

How about making the pucks/mines, once they've landed in an area, destructible.  Perhaps if they are too small to shoot at, have the pucks be bigger, or just make the invisible kill box bigger.  This might add another twist/variable in fights.  Those spending time clearing them, will spend less time providing cover fire, etc.

I've had this thought for a long time now, and was actually going to suggest it before I came across your post.

An entire set of 18, at the same location, blowing up at the same time. Whoa, that would be a sight to see, the instant death.

ReachH, on July 20 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

Destructible mines is an interesting idea, it provides a way to transfer weapon heat to an opponent, as well as giving trace weapons a use.

Leonhardt, on July 19 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

I have been waiting to use that one for AGES!

Thanks for liking my idea, guys.