119 replies to this topic

[M4st0d0n]

I heard there was a script fot TOW missiles. Should even find one for always locking the hellfires. Middle mouse button auto click. The hell with skill this game is just about techs and shields right now so wathever.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Xionos, on September 01 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

What disadvantage is there to holding charge on any charge weapon_

I've already pointed these reasons out.
Of course, you've elected to ignore them because you don't view them as "real" problems.

But remember, these things exist regardless of whether or not you choose to believe they exist.
So you can stuff your cotton in your ears and cover your eyes, but no matter how hard to try to wish them away, those disadvantages will still be there, whether you like it or not.

You can ignore objective truth, but that does not remove it from reality.

[Exeon]

I would like to point out that just like AJK is saying, you are ignoring reasons that have been given. You are ignoring valid reasons put forth that lower the skill ceiling which is never something that should make its way into an FPS.

P.s. ask anyone in BSB or anyone whom I've helped with heat cannon tips, the gun should be always be fired uncharged when possible. p.p.s unless heat cannon is fully charged there is 0 benefit to charging, the more you know

Edited by Exeon, September 01 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Leonhardt]

If your hands are cramping up or your fingers are hurting during or after using charge weapons for long periods of time I would suggest making sure to stretch them before and after use. The discomfort and physical pain comes from unrelaxed hand postures that force the fingers into clenched positions (absent preexisting conditions obviously). If the pain is in the palm region of your hand then it is probably a combination of what is written below.

There are a few ways to remedy this my first suggestion would be to make sure that your mouse fits your hand properly and requires no over extension of the fingers from how the palm rests (if you are a fingertip "claw" user then see my second suggestion).

My second suggestion would be to pay careful attention to how tense your arm, wrist, and fingers become while playing using charge weapons and non-charge based weapons. If you tend to tense up a lot this is the true cause of physical pain and through practice with conscious effort to relax your muscles can be remedied.

[Xionos]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Xionos, on September 01 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

What disadvantage is there to holding charge on any charge weapon_

I've already pointed these reasons out.
Of course, you've elected to ignore them because you don't view them as "real" problems.

But remember, these things exist regardless of whether or not you choose to believe they exist.
So you can stuff your cotton in your ears and cover your eyes, but no matter how hard to try to wish them away, those disadvantages will still be there, whether you like it or not.

You can ignore objective truth, but that does not remove it from reality.

But by this logic people who have this enabled would be at a disadvantage, since it's optional, or would they be at an advantage_ I thought you were telling me before that it removes skill from the equation giving these people an advantage_ If they are at an advantage, how is there a disadvantage to having the weapons charge all the time_

I'm getting mixed messages here.

If there is any skill to choosing when to charge, anyone can already choose to charge all the time whenever you can't hit someone with the weapon. Since you can already choose to do this, I see no reason why you can't have the option to have it charge all the time, and click when you want to release the charge/fire early any time during the charge.

Leonhardt, on September 01 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

If your hands are cramping up or your fingers are hurting during or after using charge weapons for long periods of time I would suggest making sure to stretch them before and after use. The discomfort and physical pain comes from unrelaxed hand postures that force the fingers into clenched positions (absent preexisting conditions obviously). If the pain is in the palm region of your hand then it is probably a combination of what is written below.

There are a few ways to remedy this my first suggestion would be to make sure that your mouse fits your hand properly and requires no over extension of the fingers from how the palm rests (if you are a fingertip "claw" user then see my second suggestion).

My second suggestion would be to pay careful attention to how tense your arm, wrist, and fingers become while playing using charge weapons and non-charge based weapons. If you tend to tense up a lot this is the true cause of physical pain and through practice with conscious effort to relax your muscles can be remedied.

Holding down a mouse button for so long still increases the chances of injury or strain, with or without proper stretching. That is only a way to mitigate it. Most MMO's do the same thing making you hold right click to turn your camera for the duration of the game, without giving you a proper toggle to lock to the middle of the screen. And there are still all the other reasons why such an option should be implemented.

Edited by Xionos, September 01 2013 - 07:25 PM.

[Krellus]

i think there should be auto charge option. it actually puts you at a disad on many guns, eg tbolt, but will assist folks like me who hate holding down charge buttons (i get cramps). its so annoying to me that i dont use charge weapons at all. so id appreciate the choice, and given there is no adv, only disad, i dont see why not...

[Exeon]

There is a large disadvantage: the noise generation  of charging gives away your position. Any adequate player with average hearing can hear any EOC/Heat Cannon/Bolt charging from a ways off, the heat gives off an obnoxious noise when at full charge. I would literally not use it if it charged by itself. And I feel like it gives an advantage to anyone who uses it because it doesn't require you to think to charge it. It literally makes it a brainless activity and kills the fun of the game. However in combat situations it is an advantageous feature that any self respecting duelist would use immediately because if you don't have to hide whats the point in worrying about the major downside to this feature_ You'd have to be insane to not use this feature for any combat scenario.

Made me think of a thread I remembered from CS:S, if people can quick scope so fast it never makes the player visible through the scope, why couldn't joe randomplayer use a macro to do the quick scoping for him when he fired because he was disabled. Admittedly I'm all for supporting any player that has a handicap, I think something that would let you specifically auto charge would be amazing. However if it was made a feature available to all this would be incredibly unfair. Automating tasks just takes away from the experience of playing this game imo, I don't see why you would want this OTHER THAN if it caused you some kind of pain. Which btw, leonhardt offered very sound advice that I actually needed a while back, horrible wrist cramps. A little stretching makes miracles happen.

Edited by Exeon, September 01 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Xionos, on September 01 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Xionos, on September 01 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

What disadvantage is there to holding charge on any charge weapon_

I've already pointed these reasons out.
Of course, you've elected to ignore them because you don't view them as "real" problems.

But remember, these things exist regardless of whether or not you choose to believe they exist.
So you can stuff your cotton in your ears and cover your eyes, but no matter how hard to try to wish them away, those disadvantages will still be there, whether you like it or not.

You can ignore objective truth, but that does not remove it from reality.

But by this logic people who have this enabled would be at a disadvantage, since it's optional, or would they be at an advantage_ I thought you were telling me before that it removes skill from the equation giving these people an advantage_ If they are at an advantage, how is there a disadvantage to having the weapons charge all the time_

I'm getting mixed messages here.

Whatever reasoning you are following, it is not logic.

Logically speaking, what I meant by those disadvantages existing regardless of your beliefs was obviously in reference to manual charging. This is made apparent as I said "I've already pointed these reasons out." which is a reference to my earlier post that is clearly about manual charging.

So there's no mixed message. You're just following "logic" that doesn't actually follow logic.

Quote

If there is any skill to choosing when to charge, anyone can already choose to charge all the time whenever you can't hit someone with the weapon. Since you can already choose to do this, I see no reason why you can't have the option to have it charge all the time, and click when you want to release the charge/fire early any time during the charge.

Let's apply this logic to something else.

"If there is any skill to choosing when to lock-on with the Hellfires, anyone can already choose to press the lock-on key whenever you can't hit some with the weapon. Since you can already choose to do this, I see no reason why you can't have the option to have it automatically lock-on all the time, and click when you want to fire."

Can you see the problem there_
Same logic, slightly different mechanic.

As you don't seem to want to acknowledge that there are disadvantages that are inherently part of manual charging and holding a charge, it's understandable that you don't see what you're suggesting as a crutch, but that's exactly what you're suggesting.

A crutch.
A mechanic that increases ease of use by circumventing the effort or skill of which would normally be there.

And on top of that, you're asking that it be made into an option, that is, that people would not be on equal terms depending on whether or not they have the option toggled.
In essence, that means you're asking for an option to make the game easier.

[SirCannonFodder]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

SirCannonFodder, on September 01 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

I honestly don't see how having it be manual adds any sort of skill or depth.

There actually is a measure of skill involved in holding down a mouse button and actively aiming.
The pressure you put on the mouse, however slight can change how easily you aim and make corrections.
Also, as witnessed by those who complain about how holding down the mouse button for extended periods of time can be uncomfortable, it's obviously not as physically easy as the proposed option.
And are you telling me there's no skill involved in learning when to charge and when not to, both to ease physical stress and for stealth or knowing when you don't need a full charge_

Just because it's not something that takes a lot of skill doesn't mean it takes no skill.
Just because it doesn't add a lot of depth doesn't mean it adds no depth.

Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree with those reasons (I feel like having a disadvantage carry over to outside the game is going a bit far), but I can see where you're coming from.

[Xionos]

Your hellfire argument is invalid. Hellfires are not 100% better when locked on, there are many situations where you should dumbfire first. There is an extremely clear advantage to firing them unlocked and a completely different advantage to firing them locked.

Meanwhile any advantage to not having the charge weapons charge them selves is completely outweighed by having them charged. There is no where near enough advantages to having an uncharged weapon that outweighs the many advantages of having a weapon charged as often as possible.

If you believe that it would give an advantage, you can achieve the same results as the toggle would currently by holding left click ALL the time in game. Some of us may choose to do this. This toggle would make life easier then us, because holding left click all the time can cramp your hand. If you believe there is a possibility this gives us a disadvantage, that's why it's optional, it's a choice.

If it does indeed give a clear advantage, then the problem is there is not enough reason to ever leave a weapon uncharged. You are clearly not punished for charging your weapon as often as possible while maintaining the highest DPS achievable to you.

Example: The T-32 bolt should charging any time you are not firing at your opponent it to maintain maximum possible DPS in a fight. There is no large advantage over keeping the T-32 bolt uncharged before a fight to have the highest possible burst.

1. All 3 weapons gain burst damage while charging them. In almost any conceivable situation, you want these weapons fully charged before entering a fight.

2. None of the weapons lose DPS by firing them continuously, all three should be fired whenever you know they will connect. Any time in between this, they should be charging to sustain the highest maximum DPS.

The problem I'm trying to alleviate occurs mostly during one, but is also a problem in two. You are basically walking around with your mouse button held down almost all the time with these weapons for maximum burst potential.

The game makes it tactically more advantageous to keep your weapon charged most of the time, and to charge it constantly in between the times you don't have a bead on your opponent. Because of this the game forces you to charge your weapon for almost the entire game if you want the maximum advantage.

At the very minimum there needs to be an actually disadvantage to walking around with a weapon fully charged outside of active combat. If this were at least true, there would be no need to hold charge except before initiating and during combat. Currently that's simply not true, and the results of such an optional toggle can be achieved in game currently with almost no disadvantages. It doesn't make the game easier outside of not giving me as much carpal tunnel.

Edited by Xionos, September 01 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

For the 80 bajillionth time...

Just because you, as a single individual, don't personally care to recognize that there are disadvantages to holding charge all the time, that does not make it true that there are no disadvantages.

You can argue from that perspective all you want, but that does not change the facts. Facts, as in "the sky is blue", "gravity pulls you towards the center of the Earth" sort of facts. And the facts are, there are real, certifiable disadvantages to holding charge at all times, whether you want to admit it or not. Perhaps you aren't experienced enough or perceptive enough to even realize they exist, but that doesn't matter, because they do exist and can be proven to exist.

Also, as far as this whole "physical discomfort" argument goes, you're being absurd. If constantly holding charge is causing you pain, that is a sign that you are doing it wrong. Just because you did not learn how to properly use a weapon and learn when to charge and when not to charge and that causes you discomfort, that is not a reason to change the mechanics of the game.

Do you know what that means_
That means you need to change the way you think, and how you approach the handling of charged weapons.
It means you need to relearn how you use the weapon and think about what you are doing wrong that is causing you trouble. It's a simple concept really.
If constantly holding down a mouse button is causing you pain, and you are not required to hold down the mouse button constantly... THE SOLUTION IS "DON'T HOLD DOWN THE FREAKING MOUSE BUTTON CONSTANTLY".

This thread is about a problem that doesn't actually exist.
It is a thread about a human error and that human wanting the game to accommodate that error so they do not have to change.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, September 01 2013 - 10:12 PM.

[Xionos]

In the exact same sense, it's your opinion that there is not enough real advantage to holding charge on the charge weapons.

I state that I believe there is not enough reason to not be holding the charge constantly. I gave the facts at the beginning for each weapon already to state facts opposed to your opinions that there is more advantage to choosing when to charge.

Your entire argument that it removes skill is already invalid, as the same result is obtainable in game currently using the steps I've described probably 3+ times now. Since this is true that you can achieve the same results as the   optional toggle I've suggested I see no reason it can't be in the game since you've stated,

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

there are real, certifiable disadvantages to holding charge at all times,

that looks like you are telling me I'd be at a disadvantage by enabling such a toggle, which is why it is optional and you don't have to use it.

Edited by Xionos, September 01 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[Houruck]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

Facts, as in "the sky is blue", "gravity pulls you towards the center of the Earth" sort of facts.

These are only true in certain conditions.

But I agree with you about charge weapons.

Edited by Houruck, September 01 2013 - 10:52 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Xionos, on September 01 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

In the exact same sense, it's your opinion that there is not enough real advantage to holding charge on the charge weapons.

Inaccurate.

It is your opinion that there's not enough of an advantage.
But it is fact that there is a real advantage to be gained by not holding charge all the time. You just need to be skilled and perceptive enough to leverage those advantages.

Not all matters of depth in gameplay will be perceptible by everyone, but it does not make them any less important, and they become even more important for long term player growth.

Quote

I state that I believe there is not enough reason to not be holding the charge constantly. I gave the facts at the beginning for each weapon already to state facts opposed to your opinions that there is more advantage to choosing when to charge.

What you did, is that you gave facts that were only relevant to proving your point, and not representative of the situation as a whole. It was a clear cut case of confirmation bias. You chose to acknowledge certain facts while ignoring others.

If you had bothered to read carefully, you'd have realized, I have not given ANY opinion as to whether or not there is more advantage to choosing when to charge. That is a falsehood that you have made up, a strawman fallacy.
This is you arguing with something I didn't actually say.

What I did do is bring to light that you have continuously outright ignored facts that do not support your claims and one that may even hurt your arguments.

Quote

Your entire argument that it removes skill is already invalid, as the same result is obtainable in game currently using the steps I've described probably 3+ times now. Since this is true that you can achieve the same results as the   optional toggle

You've discussed no identifiable steps exactly zero times. What you have done is put forth the assumption that a majority of people run around charging up the weapons at all times, without any evidence, and with conflicting testimonials.

Also, that you refuse to believe certain advantages and disadvantages exist does not magically render my argument invalid. Especially given what your arguing.

You are arguing for an option to auto-charge weapons at all time.
This means that the thought process involved in considering whether or not you should be charging is removed. If there is a thought process involved, there is skill involved. Thereby you are advocating that skill be removed from the equation.

You can absolutely not claim that my argument that it removes skill is invalid.
Removing the thought process of charging is literally the removal of skill, and is therefor mutually exclusive with argument that it does not remove skill.

Lastly, as the advantages and disadvantages are objective truths, irrefutable pieces of reality, it is also fact that an optional toggle can not yield the same result.
It is quite simply impossible for manual charging and auto-charging to yield the same results without breaking the laws of logic, physics and other things that tie our universe together. You are literally trying to argue something that would require the alteration of reality in order to work the way you say.

Quote

I've suggested I see no reason it can't be in the game since you've stated,

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

there are real, certifiable disadvantages to holding charge at all times,

that looks like you are telling me I'd be at a disadvantage by enabling such a toggle, which is why it is optional and you don't have to use it.

This goes back into the "crutch" argument.

This means you are pushing for a concept that acts as a crutch for those who don't want to learn how to play properly and, in fact, supports improper play. It's simply bad game design to implement crutch mechanics that teach people to play improperly.

Let's bring it back to Hellfires.
You can lock on constantly and play only that way, but there are obvious disadvantages to doing so and there is a reason that we try to teach newer players to not lock every Hellfire shot.
To do so, is to use the Hellfires poorly and improperly.

Just because the advantages and disadvantages on charged weapons are more subtle, it does not make them less important. Learning when to charge weapons and when to leave them be is just as important, and adds just as much to gameplay depth as learning when to lock-on with Hellfires and when to dumb fire them.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, September 01 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[Krellus]

if auto charge option only creates a disad, why not allow it for those who want it. like trying to play grenadier, yr just asking for hurt haha

[Exeon]

Yo ReachH, my homie rabbit, I think your idea is a bit silly. The real solution the the majority of the games problems is allow for auto zooming. Since its too hard too do it manually in this game I think there should be a feature built in, optional of course, that allows you to 'quick scope' as you press your mouse button, still firing your primary and secondary plus the additional accuracy. Would be a fair change in my eyes because I always quick scope pretty much the second I see any enemy player.

[ReachH]

Enemies can hear you charge your weapon.

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]CASE CLOSED[/font]
[font=comic sans ms,cursive]/topic [/font][font=comic sans ms,cursive]list[/font]

Edited by ReachH, September 02 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[Exeon]

ReachH, on September 01 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

Enemies can hear you charge your weapon.

CASE CLOSED
/topic list

This is exactly why we should change the topic to my discussion, imho. Mine offers no negative advantage other than you have to do it every time, its pressing a button...seriously.

[Xionos]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Let's bring it back to Hellfires.

You are using the Hellfires are as a red herring to divert attention away from the argument. The argument at hand is charge weapons, which you have made statements on already.

#1

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

There actually is a measure of skill involved in holding down a mouse button and actively aiming.
The pressure you put on the mouse, however slight can change how easily you aim and make corrections.

How minute does the pressure have to be here that it makes neglible difference_

2#

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

for stealth

The argument that enemies can hear you charge your weapon. Weapons don't make noise fully charged, if you are sneaking up behind someone and begin to charge your weapon, it will be more noticeable if you start charging then. Dashing fowards causes you to stop charging your weapon, but you will show up on radar anyhow from dashing.

3#

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

to ease physical stress

Once you start charging a weapon, if you release you'll show up on radar. If you dash forwards, you'll stop charging the weapon, but show up on radar. If you don't show up on radar, you can longer stop charging the weapon. This is not a choice if you don't want to show up on radar at this point, you must continue holding the mouse button down.

Now what are the actual disadvantages to having your weapon charge all the time_

Edited by Xionos, September 02 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[Exeon]

Xionos, on September 02 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Let's bring it back to Hellfires.

You are using the Hellfires are as a red herring to divert attention away from the argument. The argument at hand is charge weapons, which you have made statements on already.

#1

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

There actually is a measure of skill involved in holding down a mouse button and actively aiming.
The pressure you put on the mouse, however slight can change how easily you aim and make corrections.

How minute does the pressure have to be here that it makes neglible difference_

2#

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

for stealth

The argument that enemies can hear you charge your weapon. Weapons don't make noise fully charged, if you are sneaking up behind someone and begin to charge your weapon, it will be more noticeable if you start charging then. Dashing fowards causes you to stop charging your weapon, but you will show up on radar anyhow from dashing.

3#

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

to ease physical stress

Once you start charging a weapon, if you release you'll show up on radar. If you dash forwards, you'll stop charging the weapon, but show up on radar. If you don't show up on radar, you can longer stop charging the weapon. This is not a choice if you don't want to show up on radar at this point, you must continue holding the mouse button down.

Now what are the actual disadvantages to having your weapon charge all the time_

Simple, you are wrong about number 2. The heat cannon generates a very loud metallic noise when at full charge that can be heard from quite a ways off. And lastly, you're removing a skill that requires very high finesse to use perfectly with heat cannon. You can say whatever you want but it takes time to learn to use the charge as effectively as I do.