119 replies to this topic

[Xionos]

I literally just tested the heat cannon, when fully charged it goes silent, unless it sounds different to other players.

[Exeon]

Yeah, just tested it the rattling noise is still there 100%. Turn up your sound/use better headphones.

[davek1979]

I wouldn't be surprised if this was implemented.

The way Hawken is going they will soon give players one big green button labeled "PLAY", you click it and the game will play itself automatically.

[Houruck]

davek1979, on September 02 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

I wouldn't be surprised if this was implemented.

The way Hawken is going they will soon give players one big green button labeled "PLAY", you click it and the game will play itself automatically.

Like Final Fantasy XIII_

[davek1979]

Houruck, on September 02 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Like Final Fantasy XIII_

I don't play Japanese games so I wouldn't be able to tell.

[Houruck]

How about this one_

[davek1979]

Houruck, on September 02 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

How about this one_

I wouldn't have guessed Hawken changes so radically in 1.0 ...   
Is how fast you get joint stiffness the new measure of Hawken epeen _

Jokes aside: yes I think Adhesive saw this video too.

[Xionos]

I'm basically playing devil's advocate here.

1. With any charge weapon, after you enter combat you should make it practice that you jam left click down. You release the button and jam it down again to fire. If you aren't doing this, you will be missing out on DPS and there are no two ways about it.

2. Meanwhile if you are in between fights and uncertain of where your next opponent will be, you are going to want to have your weapon charged and ready for maximum burst. Even if you have an idea, if ever wrong and an opponent showed up when your weapon was uncharged, you'd lose on damage.

Because of these two things you can end up holding left click for more then you let go of it. In addition, for players who are having trouble understanding the weapon, this can become the best play style easily. Currently by playing with the mouse button down in and our of fights all the time, you can increase your DPS significantly.

Edited by Xionos, September 02 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Leonhardt]

This suggestion has come up a few times before. It often is more of a quality of life thing for the player then anything else. The devs have said in videos showing off charge weapons that the charging aspect of the weapon is meant to make it harder to use so I don't see them adding in this functionality for current charge weapons. They intend for players to traverse the mechanic not sidestep it even if there is a significant disadvantage in doing so.

However, an auto charging weapon that must be charged fully to fire could be interesting (I would prefer if it forced the player to manually charge, but thats not for me to decide).

[Xionos]

Yeah, and there can be skill involved with charging weapons. That's what I'm trying to argue here, is that currently the game encourages holding down left click in between lining up shots on your opponent with absolutely no penalty. This detracts the skill there could be with charge weapons.

I played another game where the sniper rifle in the game was a charge weapon, while charging it though your character could barely move.  If you are looking at this from a numerical standpoint, the benefits of this play style can outweigh the tactical benefits that you would gain.

That's why I got frustrated about it and decided to play devil's advocate here. There should be much more tactical benefit to choosing when you charge your weapons.

All three weapons are better in charged state then uncharged, there should be more decision between when to charge and when to not charge. This doesn't mean they have to be strictly worse, you can give separate benefits to charged and uncharged states, or some negative benefit to a fully charged weapon that makes you think twice about charging it.

Edited by Xionos, September 02 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

And yet again, you ignore the disadvantages that exist so that you can claim there's "no penalty" to charging your weapon.

How many times do I have to tell you that just because you don't recognize the advantages and disadvantages it does not mean they don't exist_
How many times will I have to tell you that just because the advantages and disadvantages aren't as obvious as they are with other weapons and mechanics, that doesn't not make them any less significant and more worthy to ignore for ease of use_

Oh, by the way...
Learn what a "red herring" is and what the requirements are in order for a argument to be classified as such before you make such a claim. My Hellfire example isn't classified as a Red Herring because it's not meant to draw any attention away from weapon charging. It's meant to provide a different way of thinking about it so you can examine the issue at hand more thoroughly.

[Beefsweat]

oh jesus, this whole thread

[Xionos]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 02 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

And yet again, you ignore the disadvantages that exist so that you can claim there's "no penalty" to charging your weapon.

I recognize the advantages and disadvantages, there is an actual DPS advantage that can be gained by holding down mouse click releasing only to shoot, and not having to think about it.

Edited by Xionos, September 02 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[fwip]

As far as I can tell, the arguments against giving players an option to autocharge are:

1. It's hard to hold down the mouse button and aim, thus this option removes the skill of aiming while you hold down the mouse button.
2. Auto-charging is sometimes disadvantageous.

Regarding point 2, is there any harm in letting players gimp themselves to make their lives easier_

For point 1, I don't think that the physical dexterity to aim while holding down a mouse button is a terribly interesting skill. It's about as interesting as "my computer is fast enough to get 60 FPS." I don't think that differentiators based on physical skill should be preserved soley for their own sake.

Hawken would be more difficult if you were required to play while standing on your head. Sure, there's the "skill" of handling the blood rush to your head, and not falling over, but I don't think it would make it a better game, or even more interesting (except perhaps for spectators, as a novelty show).

[Xionos]

fwip, on September 02 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

As far as I can tell, the arguments against giving players an option to autocharge are:

1. It's hard to hold down the mouse button and aim, thus this option removes the skill of aiming while you hold down the mouse button.

The amount of skill required is subjective. It possibly makes negligible difference.

Edited by Xionos, September 02 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[fwip]

Whether it takes a lot of skill or a tiny amount, I don't think that we should strive to preserve it.

[Xionos]

No, you should strive to preserve it if it takes significant skill, otherwise the toggle becomes necessary. But if any advantage it may give is small that it can be outweighed by it's disadvantages that it is not deemed necessary to use the toggle, then you should allow the toggle to help people with repeated strain injury.

Edited by Xionos, September 02 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Xionos, on September 02 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on September 02 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

And yet again, you ignore the disadvantages that exist so that you can claim there's "no penalty" to charging your weapon.

I recognize the advantages and disadvantages, there is an actual DPS advantage that can be gained by holding down mouse click releasing only to shoot, and not having to think about it.

This is not recognizing or acknowledging advantages and disadvantages.

This is just you, once again, only acknowledging the advantages that support your claims while ignoring the ones that don't.

fwip, on September 02 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

As far as I can tell, the arguments against giving players an option to autocharge are:

1. It's hard to hold down the mouse button and aim, thus this option removes the skill of aiming while you hold down the mouse button.
2. Auto-charging is sometimes disadvantageous.

3. It completely removes the process of learning how to use the weapon properly.
4. It teaches people how to misuse the weapons and reinforces bad play.

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Regarding point 2, is there any harm in letting players gimp themselves to make their lives easier_

Yes, there really is.
Give me a good reason we should be catering to people who don't want to learn how to play the game properly_

Why should the game not only allow, but actively support doing things the wrong way_

And it's a question of where does it end_
Should TOWs and GLs have auto-detonate options because some people can't do that right_
Should Sabots auto-zoom when you mouse over a target because some people can't learn to quick scope_
Should Hellfires auto-lock because some people can't get a handle of when to do that_
Should the Corsair automatically change modes depending on the range of your target_
Should the Helix automatically switch modes depending on whether you're targeting a friendly or enemy_

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For point 1, I don't think that the physical dexterity to aim while holding down a mouse button is a terribly interesting skill. It's about as interesting as "my computer is fast enough to get 60 FPS." I don't think that differentiators based on physical skill should be preserved soley for their own sake.

By that logic, we should then remove or nerf any mechanic that highlights physical superiority so that it's no longer an issue. Anything that depends on having a slightly better reaction time should be tossed out the window.

Like I've said before, just because it isn't the largest differentiator of skill doesn't mean that it's less significant. If you start removing all these "uninteresting" bits of depth, what you end up with is a amazingly dumbed down game, especially at the higher levels of skill.

And as I pointed out above, where do you stop_
Changing modes on the Helix isn't highly skill intensive, nor does it require a vastly superior intellect, but should we automate that process_
For most players, detonating missed TOWs and GLs is practically an automatic process once they get past their newbie stages, and there's no real reason not to do it most of the time. Does that mean they should auto-detonate_
Should Hellfires automatically lock on whenever you mouse over a target_ After all, pressing the lock on key isn't a terribly interesting skill.

Quote

Hawken would be more difficult if you were required to play while standing on your head. Sure, there's the "skill" of handling the blood rush to your head, and not falling over, but I don't think it would make it a better game, or even more interesting (except perhaps for spectators, as a novelty show).

That is an example of needless complexity, "making it harder to play for the sake of making it harder to play."

The issue of charging is one of depth, not complexity.
It's a matter of learning the finer nuances of a weapon, of fully understanding the advantages and disadvantages and when you should do what.