110 replies to this topic

[craftydus]

DFTR, on March 13 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

Crafty, how many players in the TPG league have an MMR less than 1850_  From looking at the rosters, I believe I'm the only such player and even I may not be on the team much longer

Ideally there would be divisions/breakdowns for separate MMR but this is a start.  

Right now it makes sense to grow the game by focussing on the beginner/intermediate group of players.  I think you have a much broader population to pick up.  At any rate, perhaps you could talk w/ Gumby or Counterlogic offline to hash this out_

The guys from triple duece for example just got the game and signed up (which I applaud).
TPG is for literally level-one-new-players to those with many hundreds of hours.
I can understand an mmr cap, but discriminating (in what purports to be a public community event) simply for signing up in a league that has yet to go live with a single match is more than unreasonable nonsense.
Idiots.

[Ashfire908]

You do realize by declaring the limit as "True MMR between 1350-1850", you are actually allowing anyone with an MMR between 1250-1950 into the tourny, right_ "True MMR" is a range that is for most players ±100 MMR from the calculated MMR (higher on new accounts from what I've seen).

DFTR, on March 13 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

Crafty, how many players in the TPG league have an MMR less than 1850_  From looking at the rosters, I believe I'm the only such player and even I may not be on the team much longer

About 8-10 people are below 1850 MMR (14 if you go by 1950 instead).

[Gumby789]

The MMR and League restriction is in place because this was set up as an Amateurs Tournament for all the newer pilots who just just grabbed Hawken when it moved to Steam and went FTP (1350 is the starting point for new players who never played yet). And redeem codes are how HC will be given to people. For smurf accounts I'd expect that if you were one of the higher skilled players or in the League you would be reputable enough to have the dignity not to ruin this event and try to sneak in.

Edited by Gumby789, March 13 2014 - 09:04 AM.

[Gumby789]

craftydus, on March 13 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

Tpg is open to all levels of skill in all games they offer hosting for.
Disqualifying people from your event because of association with a particular league is dubious at best.
Particularly the Hawken 5v5 league, who's players are easily 99% full of gamers with zero league experience thus far, and are simply beginning their first inaugural foray into anything remotely considerable as competitive play.

There are no "pros" in Hawken yet. There hasn't even been a preseason yet to determine what skill level the teams signed up even are.
Way to establish TAW events as an exercise in douchebaggery. Idiots.

*edit

And to think of the weeks I spent reaching out to TAW, and how we worked to include someone from TAW in the TPG admin team.
Thanks for the eye opener.

Wow man you are taking this on a personal level. The restrictions WERE NOT SPECIFICALLY TARGETED AT YOU (Half of the TAW Hawken members are being excluded by these rules). When drafting the tourney it wasn't 'Hey lets make sure that cratfydus guy can't play!' From the start of the idea it was viewed as an Amateur Tournament for new players. And having a MMR range of 500 is pretty fair especially considering if a 1350 player tried to join a server a 1850 players on it would be locked out for them! As for the TPG restriction if you are in the League you are not an Amateur player. The TPG League is a great place for people to go if you are skilled and want a true competitive setup definitely go check it out.

Edited by Gumby789, March 13 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[Gumby789]

Ashfire908, on March 13 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

You do realize by declaring the limit as "True MMR between 1350-1850", you are actually allowing anyone with an MMR between 1250-1950 into the tourny, right_ "True MMR" is a range that is for most players ±100 MMR from the calculated MMR (higher on new accounts from what I've seen).

TY had it wrong, just changed it so it didn't say true. And their will be a slight leniency for people on the cusp as if you were 1839 for example during the tournament you might go up to 1853 etc

Edited by Gumby789, March 13 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[craftydus]

Gumby789, on March 13 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

As for the TPG restriction if you are in the League you are not an Amateur player.

This is completely untrue and woefully ignorant.
I can't count 10 hawken players that have signed up for TPG that have any competitive playing experience whatsoever.



You are an idiot

Edited by craftydus, March 13 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[Exeon]

While crafty may be going about it entirely wrong as everyone can clearly see, the rule makes players hesitant to sign up for the league. As you've stated most players participating are excluded already by the 1850 mmr threshold the TPG rule seems redundant and impacts negatively on the HAWKEN competitive scene.

[Exeon]

craftydus, on March 13 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

You are an idiot

So are you for acting this way

[Gumby789]

Exeon, on March 13 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

While crafty may be going about it entirely wrong as everyone can clearly see, the rule makes players hesitant to sign up for the league. As you've stated most players participating are excluded already by the 1850 mmr threshold the TPG rule seems redundant and impacts negatively on the HAWKEN competitive scene.

Honestly never thought of it that way before, it was not and is not intended in that regard. As TAW member DFTR noted he is on the TAW League team and his MMR would qualify him to participate in this if he weren't. The main reasoning behind this restriction was League players style and skill is viewed well above that of a new/average player which is what this event is geared towards. Once again this was not intended as a 'dig' to the TPG League, TAW fully supports the TPG league and has registered a team in League. Anyone who is not eligible to play in the Amateur Tournament due to the MMR restriction please do check out the TPG League.

[Nept]

Gumby789, on March 13 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

The TPG League is a great place for people to go if you are skilled and want a true competitive setup definitely go check it out.

The TPG league isn't targeting only skilled/competitive Hawken players.  It's meant to accomodate players and teams of all skill levels.  By restricting tournament access to those players not signed up for TPG, you're diminishing the chances that they'll sign up.  Why, after all, would you join the league and forfeit your opportunity to win some actual prizes_

That's the reason that Crafty's upset.  He's certainly not conveying his frustrations diplomatically, but I think his concerns are warranted.

*Edit* To be clear, I don't understand the need for the league restriction.  The MMR restriction alone would filter out any overly skilled or competitive players.

Edited by Nept, March 13 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Lucier]

The rule excluding people who are signed up for TPG from participating is divisive and blatantly hostile to the TPG league. It will make people feel like they have to choose between this event and the TPG league when they should be free to sign up for both. If you want to make sure only new players are signing up, you could restrict it by account creation date.

Gumby789, on March 13 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

As for the TPG restriction if you are in the League you are not an Amateur player.

Amateur players are free to make teams and sign up for the TPG league.

EDIT: The problematic rule has been removed.

Edited by Lucier, March 13 2014 - 05:37 PM.

[[HWK]ZamboniChaos]

Nept, on March 13 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

*Edit* To be clear, I don't understand the need for the league restriction.  The MMR restriction alone would filter out any overly skilled or competitive players.

I believe the problem that has arisen here is one of miscommunication. Unless I'm not understanding something correctly, the MMR restriction would be a sufficient gate as has been mentioned. My interpretation is that Gumby mentioned the TPG because he associated it with highly skilled players and wanted to emphasize that this TAW tournament was not targeted at that skill bracket. I don't believe there was any offense intended.

Does this seem accurate_

[craftydus]

[HWK]ZamboniChaos, on March 13 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Nept, on March 13 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

*Edit* To be clear, I don't understand the need for the league restriction.  The MMR restriction alone would filter out any overly skilled or competitive players.

I believe the problem that has arisen here is one of miscommunication. Unless I'm not understanding something correctly, the MMR restriction would be a sufficient gate as has been mentioned. My interpretation is that Gumby mentioned the TPG because he associated it with highly skilled players and wanted to emphasize that this TAW tournament was not targeted at that skill bracket. I don't believe there was any offense intended.

Does this seem accurate_

An mmr cap is sufficient to keep it targeted at players of a certain skill level.
I maintain that TPG has been open to players of ALL skill levels for over 12 years now, and TPG Hawken continues this tradition of welcoming entry-level new players.
Excluding players based solely on their sign-up status on the league is completely irrational.
As I have been working toward establishing hawken at TPG for many months,It's very hard not to take it personally.
I'm clearly very pissed off by this nonsense.

Edited by craftydus, March 13 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[shosca]

Yes this is definitely a misunderstanding and miscommunication issue. How about replacing the tpg rule with the pilot level limit_

Edited by shosca, March 13 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[[HWK]ZamboniChaos]

craftydus, on March 13 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

Excluding players based solely on their sign-up status on the league is completely irrational.
It's very hard not to take it personally. I'm clearly very pissed off by this nonsense.

That may be true, but I do not believe that the exclusion was born out of a desire to prevent anyone from playing due to personal prejudice.

I've seen this community resolve issues like this in the past and I'm confident we can find a common ground here. Both this tournament and the TPG are awesome initiatives and I want to see both succeed.

[Gumby789]

This is an Amateur Tournament and is not geared towards the hardcore/skilled competitive Hawken player. The goal was to aim at those players who maybe play the game on an occasional basis or those who just picked up the title. To have that one person be like cool look at this and they call their brother, co-workers and friends and get them involved in Hawken to participate. The target audience is those kinds of players and we want them to get involved in Hawken and feel like they have a chance of winning this, not to get stomped on because that is not fun for anyone.

In the world of gaming there are two player types, competitive and casual. As this event is being targeted at the casual player base their is a restriction for anyone involved in competitive play/events. It just so happens to be that the only ladder/league in Hawken at this time is TPG and that the majority of those players already don't qualify as their MMR is higher than required. Regardless if that is the case or not if their were several other leagues/ladder all of those would not be allowed to participate either. As players who had already been gaming together as a group geared towards competitiveness and winning, puts them on a different playing field than those casual players who just want to play Hawken and have fun, regardless of what their MMR may say. That being said I will change it so it doesn't specifically read 'TPG' but it will still be implied.

There is alot of talk and worry about ghosting accounts and the like and putting it bluntly, this event is kind of like a testing ground. Not just for future events where TAW may host one for all 'Pro' players for example, but for tournaments/ladders/leagues scene of Hawken in general. When all is said and done, if there are a fair number of problems encountered, than those players will not have only hurt this event but all future events as well. As TAW is a legally registered non-profit organization and the prizes listed here are out of pocket from TAW Hawken members there will not be any more TAW community events in Hawken if there are a number of bad individuals who ruin it for everyone else.

Edited by Gumby789, March 21 2014 - 07:22 AM.

[ThirdEyE]

Gumby789, on March 13 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

As stated above all team members participating in this event MUST connect to the TAW TS server on game day. Therefore when caught, besides being banned from TAW, their name and I.P. will be shared publicly anywhere and everywhere Hawken has a presence.

Edit:  Seems this part was removed, thankfully.  Glad to see more events for newer players, hope the tournament goes well

Edited by ThirdEyE, March 14 2014 - 01:47 PM.

[Sylhiri]

So... it's a competitive event that excludes competitive players_

[Exeon]

Gumby789, on March 13 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

Long text

Just because a league is started does not mean everyone participating is a highly skilled individual or a long time practicing team in fact I know one of the teams(Triple Deuces) is full of players who recently picked up the game. What your rule does that is very negative is to scare players away from signing up and expanding the already abysmally small competitive scene. I'm sure you can find another way around this besides telling new players they have to choose between your tournament and another competitive alternative. Know that the players arguing against this rule aren't wanting to participate in your tournament to ruin it but want new players to feel welcome to join TPG which is not a league designed for ub3r1337h4x0rs but is for EVERYONE. TPG is open to anyone and everyone with no clan/skill/or any other kind of restriction other than a steam ID and 5 players who want to play together in a competitive environment.

Something Irish_00 suggested in IRC is to change the rules to limit based on level which has some downsides but seems like a pretty good solution.

[craftydus]

Gumby789, on March 13 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

In the world of gaming there are two player types, competitive and casual... As players who had already been gaming together as a group geared towards competitiveness and winning, puts them on a different playing field... I will change it so it doesn't specifically read 'TPG' but it will still be implied.

[font=times new roman', times, serif]This idea you have could be more wrong, but I'm not sure how.

The only actual difference between the two player "types" you dream that there are in Hawken, is that some are signed up for tpg and have yet to play a single match, and others have yet to sign up.

If you have a team or know of people interested in team play, and are actually rewarding these players for explicitly not participating in a league we are working to establish...I've nothing decent to say to you, or good to say about you.
That is nothing short of exclusionary in a way that has no bearing on any reality that exists outside your imagination.

To assert that TPG only welcomes players of a certain skillset is delusional. [/font]
[font=times new roman', times, serif]This fantasy of yours entirely unfounded.
Players of every skill level are welcome, and eagerly encouraged to sign up and participate at TPG.[/font]
[font=times new roman', times, serif]I don't know who told you otherwise, but it wasn't any of the thousands of TPG players who have played in over a dozen years of it's existence, that's for damn sure.[/font]

[font=times new roman', times, serif]I can understand an mmr cap to keep your event attractive to newer/less experienced players.
But singling players out for merely signing up at some website you wouldn't bother participating in because of your mistaken prejudices is completely toxic.[/font]

Gumby789, on March 13 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

TAW may host tournaments/ladders/leagues scene of Hawken in general

[font=times new roman', times, serif]You kinda poisoned the waters there. [/font]