137 replies to this topic

[BurnsHot]

Guys,

Sounds like some of you are not reading the full articles or maybe I've ready too many and have them mixed up in my mind.  The info should be there in the sources I've cited, but let me try to sum it all up.

From what I understand, Meteor and ADH tried to build a direct to consumer market.  They didn't want a middle man (Steam) serving up the game to players.  Their was very little to no advertising because they had some notion that the game would go, for lack of a better term, Viral.  Hoping this game would explode like what happened with LOL.  

They spent a lot of money trying to reinvent Steam by using those Amazon Servers and the Virtual Machines which allowed them to quickly set up servers in other countries, but turns out the original decision to use Amazon servers was a huge mistake.

The Movie was part of that original idea of creating buzz on the internet to drive new players to the game, pre-Steam.  Now that they gave up on the idea of making their own Steam, they can use more affordable/reasonable means to attract new players then go for an expensive movie.

Again, IMO, the core problem is that the investors were looking for the next LOL, hype it up with its own micro eco-system and sell it for a profit.

Fast forward two years later, players did not join this game in mass, we now have Steam,  CEOs have left or been fired, offices have closed/consolidated and we find ourselves in a situation where the Devs are ignoring us.

Everyone wants to know what's going on and we are left with having to piece it all together ourselves.  There are also probably more sources that we have not found yet.

Who is willing to connect the dots_

Edited by BurnsHot, September 15 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[DerMax]

There isn't much to connect.

As was stated before, there are three possible reasons to go completely silent on the community:

1. Company acquisition
2. Legal action of any sort
3. Milking the game until the playerbase ceases to exist, to then pull the plug.

I can't think of anything else. Whatever is the case, I don't think further information can be found on the web.

Edited by DerMax, September 15 2014 - 11:19 AM.

[Skitzo1d]

DerMax, on September 15 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

There isn't much to connect.

As was stated before, there are three possible reasons to go completely silent on the community:

1. Company acquisition
2. Legal action of any sort
3. Milking the game until the playerbase ceases to exist, to then pull the plug.

I can't think of anything else. Whatever is the case, I don't think further information can be found on the web.

number 3.  Wouldnt they just keep going like business as usual so players dont suspect anything if they wanted to milk it though_

The other 2 reasons is what I would be leanign towards why the silence though.

[BurnsHot]

DerMax, on September 15 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

There isn't much to connect.

As was stated before, there are three possible reasons to go completely silent on the community:

1. Company acquisition
2. Legal action of any sort
3. Milking the game until the playerbase ceases to exist, to then pull the plug.

I can't think of anything else. Whatever is the case, I don't think further information can be found on the web.

4. Firefall

[EliteShooter]

StubbornPuppet, on September 15 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

I noticed that for each improvement in connectivity and lag, there was some bit of graphics effect, etc. removed.  ie: destrucable structures, weapon tracers, boost-jet trails, fog/haze, particle fx and lighting halos.

That's pretty true. I thought it was just my machine. The graphics used to be much more detailed. And I absolutely loved it!

[Skitzo1d]

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

DerMax, on September 15 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

There isn't much to connect.

As was stated before, there are three possible reasons to go completely silent on the community:

1. Company acquisition
2. Legal action of any sort
3. Milking the game until the playerbase ceases to exist, to then pull the plug.

I can't think of anything else. Whatever is the case, I don't think further information can be found on the web.

4. Firefall

why you keep adding firefall stuff in here_ Not seeing the connection.

[EliteShooter]

The idea that's being shaped in my mind is that the investors that chose to invest in HAWKEN were the wrong people for the wrong game.

They have set very high expectations for it, and it didn't work out. That probably has disturbed the devs and probably their game is on the line.


To be honest, I cannot see HAWKEN dying, or shut down, because the game still has a lot of potential. Even if the current sponsors are looking at it as a lost cause, I'm sure others could still see the possibility of the game being able to climb back.

The best possible scenario is that ADH will find new investors, and will get one more shot. Maybe a push in terms or the personnel, and the money.


Obviously the devs have tried to hide everything, whether they wanted it or they were forced to, but a lot has slipped, and I'm sure that some of you guys will find an answer or be able to connect the dots, in a reasonable and hopefully a satisfying way.

[BurnsHot]

Skitzo1d, on September 15 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

4. Firefall

why you keep adding firefall stuff in here_ Not seeing the connection.

Please can someone other than me answer this question_  Otherwise it just sounds one sided.

[Sylhiri]

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Please can someone other than me answer this question_  Otherwise it just sounds one sided.

Just pull out one of AJK's posts about Firefall.

[EliteShooter]

Skitzo1d, on September 15 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

why you keep adding firefall stuff in here_ Not seeing the connection.

Yes, me too. Did it really seal HAWKEN's players_ I don't think so. When you play on steam, you play a lot of games, that's how it usually works. And even if a big part of the HAWKEN playerbase tried firefall and liked it, I can't see them totally abandoning HAWKEN.

You could say that with the lack of updates, support, and all that, it IS possible, but the thing with HAWKEN is that the people who like the game feel it's just their thing, that it's the one game that they will. Whoever plays the game and supports it financially (which matters the most) is a person that's admiring the game, it's uniqueness, and are simply hooked up on it.

I have a lot of friends on steam that like to try out new games that are doing a buzz on steam, just like firefall, but none of them totally stopped playing HAWKEN, or took a long break. Obviously there are people who did, not everyone is alike


TBH, I haven't played that game, I only watched videos, and lemme be clear here, that game is absolutely, and I MEAN ABSOLUTELY nowhere near HAWKEN.

It looks cool, but HAWKEN is cooler. It has a lot of weapons, HAWKEN has more and more unique ones. The maps are nice and good looking, HAWKEN's maps with all the flaws in few of them are still much better, and so nice looking, very detailed, and just AWESOME.

Sylhiri, on September 15 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Please can someone other than me answer this question_  Otherwise it just sounds one sided.

Just pull out one of AJK's posts about Firefall.

Links_

[DerMax]

One of Firefall's investors is Benchmark, which also happens to be one of Hawken's investors. Firefall bombed big time, and so the guys at BM might have decided to pull back from Hawken to not waste any more money.

http://www.crunchbas...n/red-5-studios

Edited by DerMax, September 15 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[SS396]

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

From what I understand, Meteor and ADH tried to build a direct to consumer market.  They didn't want a middle man (Steam) serving up the game to players.  Their was very little to no advertising because they had some notion that the game would go, for lack of a better term, Viral.  Hoping this game would explode like what happened with LOL.  

Yes, they planned on having zero cost advertising meaning full reliance on players spreading the word with lots of ties to social media and transmedia.

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

They spent a lot of money trying to reinvent Steam by using those Amazon Servers and the Virtual Machines which allowed them to quickly set up servers in other countries, but turns out the original decision to use Amazon servers was a huge mistake.

Not so sure about that one.  Yes they didn't want to use Steam in the beginning, but somewhere along the line they felt it would get them more advertising visibility and word of mouth.  It did seem to get players in initially, but lack of content and people disliking the game for whatever reason is what has caused the population to drop.

As far as using Amazon servers a huge mistake, I'm not sure thats a true statement.  I mean, it works and some of those news stories say  its way cheaper than having to setup a dedicated data center.  I guess one thing that came to mind is if they have decided to want to put the servers on steam provided servers, to get the benifits of VAC, and how that might of caused some problems due to the way the servers needed to be setup on amazon.

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Again, IMO, the core problem is that the investors were looking for the next LOL, hype it up with its own micro eco-system and sell it for a profit.

That one is where I point the finger at, greedy people that only care about their pocketbook and watching it get larger.

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Who is willing to connect the dots_

I've tried but there just isn't enough info to draw clear conclusions.

Oh and you asked me earlier about was this a "firefall" dealy.  I'm afraid I don't pay attention to a ton of games and have no clue what you are talking about.  I've heard AJK mention it a few times in threads, but never done the full research to know the whole story.  Just never interested me to want to find out.

[BurnsHot]

EliteShooter, on September 15 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Links_

Elite,

You mentioned the "Firefall scenario" in one of your post in a different thread, so I thought you knew what I'm talking about, but now I'm not so sure.

Hell, I could be totally off here that's why I'm not revealing all of my theories.  Kind of like SS396 holding back some of his speculations.

SS396, on September 15 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Oh and you asked me earlier about was this a "firefall" dealy.  I'm afraid I don't pay attention to a ton of games and have no clue what you are talking about.  I've heard AJK mention it a few times in threads, but never done the full research to know the whole story.  Just never interested me to want to find out.

I think we need the man (AJK) himself in here to explain it or I will look his stuff up later.  I found outside links that talk about the subject.

Edited by BurnsHot, September 15 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[SS396]

Oh and I forgot to add this.  About the datacenter and AWS stuff.  Meteor planned on being a provider for other game companies to use the same sort of server setup infrastructure that Hawken uses.

EliteShooter, on September 15 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Obviously the devs have tried to hide everything, whether they wanted it or they were forced to, but a lot has slipped, and I'm sure that some of you guys will find an answer or be able to connect the dots, in a reasonable and hopefully a satisfying way.

I just want to add this.  The Dev's haven't tried to hide anything, the board of directors is whats hiding things.  The Devs are just doing what they are told.  And this info thats "slipped" as you said, hasn't come from any of them, its all been from public news info.  I've bugged the hell out of some of the Devs and they haven't said a word other than "I can't say anything at this time" and "soon".  So obviously its taking longer than they expected.  Like I said they don't like it that they can't tell us whats going on, but they have to do what they are told.

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Kind of like SS396 holding back some of his speculations.

Lol, what I'm holding on to is not a speculation.  Its concrete, the issue is the why, thats the part that isn't black and white.

Edited by SS396, September 15 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[DerMax]

OJ poured, candles in tray, with this chant I summon AJK!

ヽ(◉◡◔)ﾉ ヽ(◉◡◔)ﾉ ヽ(◉◡◔)ﾉ

Edited by DerMax, September 15 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[EliteShooter]

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Elite,

You mentioned the "Firefall scenario" in one of your post in a different thread, so I thought you knew what I'm talking about, but now I'm not so sure.

Lol, I always disappoint people ...

DerMax, on September 15 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

OJ poured, candles in tray, with this chant I summon AJK!

"chant" and "AJK" are 2 words that should in no way, AND I MEAN NO WAY, be in once sentence.

[EliteShooter]

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Hell, I could be totally off here that's why I'm not revealing all of my theories.  Kind of like SS396 holding back some of his speculations.

How about you open the gates and let hell break loose_







Nah, better not ... I must focus on studies, come on elite, focus, focus focus ...

[AsianJoyKiller]

Skitzo1d, on September 15 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

number 3.  Wouldnt they just keep going like business as usual so players dont suspect anything if they wanted to milk it though_

nah. It's not necessary. Just look at HiRez's Global Agenda, or Tribes: Ascend.
GA is effectively dead, but they're still milking it, even though they haven't said a peep for over 2 years. They never made an official announcement that they were going to stop supporting either game. They just went quiet, and kept the servers running while they focused on SMITE.

In general, there's a large portion of videogame consumers who are more than willing to act like a doormat. There's no reason the companies should try to keep up appearances in that case, and they can still make money off those people for no effort.

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

SS396, on September 15 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Oh and you asked me earlier about was this a "firefall" dealy.  I'm afraid I don't pay attention to a ton of games and have no clue what you are talking about.  I've heard AJK mention it a few times in threads, but never done the full research to know the whole story.  Just never interested me to want to find out.

I think we need the man (AJK) himself in here to explain it or I will look his stuff up later.  I found outside links that talk about the subject.

Are we talking Firefall's development in general_
Because I've made a ton of posts, and some of them are about specific things, like financing, or balance, while other posts are more general.

I've got a high fever right now, so some of my recall might be off a bit.

What I do know is that in the past Red5, Firefall's developers, have faced what could be considered major "technical debt" issues, causing them to revamp the game 3 times, completely redoing systems and balance. Sometime after their first or second attempt, it actually caused them problems with their investors, and they needed to find a new sugar daddy to keep going.

I know they were also trying to go that no-Steam route, but their long and troubled development process hurt the game's publicity so that it became a necessity. They simply weren't pulling in the numbers they need to support the game. That's actually part of the reason they shut off PvP. Last thing I heard about that, only about 1% of the population was bothering with PvP, and that's detrimental when you've tried to market your game on having eSport viable PvP.

[SS396]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 15 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

I've got a high fever right now, so some of my recall might be off a bit.

What I do know is that in the past Red5, Firefall's developers, have faced what could be considered major "technical debt" issues, causing them to revamp the game 3 times, completely redoing systems and balance. Sometime after their first or second attempt, it actually caused them problems with their investors, and they needed to find a new sugar daddy to keep going.

Wait a second.  Red5_   I knew they were a game company but not what game(s) they worked on.

So maybe this won't be the first failure in the string of winners in the vestment chain, like I had previously speculated.

I wonder, was Benchmark in the first group of investors that pulled out_ or the second.  If they were the first, then thats whats going on for sure.

AsianJoyKiller, on September 15 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

I've got a high fever right now, so some of my recall might be off a bit.

You might need a little more cowbell, I heard thats the only prescription.

[AsianJoyKiller]

SS396, on September 15 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on September 15 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

I've got a high fever right now, so some of my recall might be off a bit.

What I do know is that in the past Red5, Firefall's developers, have faced what could be considered major "technical debt" issues, causing them to revamp the game 3 times, completely redoing systems and balance. Sometime after their first or second attempt, it actually caused them problems with their investors, and they needed to find a new sugar daddy to keep going.

Wait a second.  Red5_   I knew they were a game company but not what game(s) they worked on.

So maybe this won't be the first failure in the string of winners in the vestment chain, like I had previously speculated.

I wonder, was Benchmark in the first group of investors that pulled out_ or the second.  If they were the first, then thats whats going on for sure.

Yeah. Red5 is the mess of a developer that makes Firefall. And as far as I know, Firefall is their only game. Their first game.

Whole situation is crazy. Red5 is a first time studio who somehow got backed to the tune of tens of millions of dollars to produce an open-world MMO shooter featuring eSports-level PvP. I don't know how many they have now, but they initially had something like 100 employees. Quite ridiculous.

They really thought they were hot sh*t and it ended up fuzzy bunny them in the end. If they hadn't gone on developing the game in the mindset that they were better and smarter than their community in every single regard (and treating them like it too), they probably never would have had to overhaul the game multiple times.

I'm not sure who pulled out when, but I do know The9 is still backing them, and I think they make another $20mil investment before Firefall went to Steam (probably what allowed it to go to Steam).