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What Do We Know About The "Technical Debt"_

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#1 BurnsHot

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Posted September 14 2014 - 08:42 AM

I wanted to pull as many sources I could find to help explain the "Technical Debt" that everyone keeps talking about.  A lot of information flows through the forum, but if you are not keeping up on it, then it can easy get buried and you will never know it was there.

So for anyone who wants a better idea on what the "Technical Debt" is all about please read.  Also if I missed any sources, feel free to mention them.  Enjoy!


Posted October 29, 2012, taken from a news article, VB GamesBeat, the then chief executive of Seattle-based Meteor Entertainment, Mark Long said, “Trying to run dedicated servers on an Amazon Elastic Compute Cloud (Amazon’s data center outsourcing service) was something nobody had tried before. Early on, we tested it to see if it would work. As we move into it, it works better than we could have hoped for” as it can handle 10,000 players in simultaneous gaming without any hiccups. The latency, or delays in interaction, is so low that the service quality is good in beta testing, Long said. That saves a lot of money on data center costs, he said. (read full article here: http://venturebeat.c...nch-draws-near/)

Posted November 30, 2012, (http://www.forbes.co...onal-marketing/), Mark Long said, "Our server technology has panned out much better than we had hoped. We have dedicated servers on virtual machines. We’re using the cloud as a virtual OS on different cores of a server, which provides greater efficiency. Those machine copies can do anything. We didn’t know if latency would be a problem, but it turns out it’s not an issue at all. We have servers on the East and West Coasts of the U.S., in the UK, Japan and Australia. We get such good pings that we can play on a Japanese or Australian server like it’s downtown Seattle from our Seattle studio. Things work so well that we advanced our plans to go global on Day One. The only territory we aren’t going to be in is China. We’re excited to see what happens as the markets emerge naturally."

Posted April 11, 2014, https://community.pl...post__p__495831,  [HWK]HUGHES said, "Rather than spend additional time on the feature itself, work to fix issues with the scaling of the platform was prioritized. You may recall us mentioning this in the past (the weeks prior to the Steam launch) where we needed to make sure the platform would be able to scale to the number of users desired and for those of you who have been with us for a while, the difference is indeed noticeable despite the roughness for a while that was a "necessary evil".

For a while after that, tool fixing and bug fixing was a priority for the platform team until work shifted to removing our dependency on AWS; transitioning to a completely new database. This is no small project but is a requirement for cost consideration, performance and for regions of the world where AWS is not an available solution. This work is in progress."


Posted April 22, 2014,/hawken/forums/mtr-era/topic/54728-development-update-4222014/#entry504660, [HWK]HUGHES said, "Our team has made great strides in our migration away from AWS dependencies and we now have a separate build of the game running in a completely isolated environment with a new database and that was no small task to accomplish. It's still a significant amount of work to migrate the live version of HAWKEN to a new database, but we plan on making that a smooth transition that won't negatively effect players. Hopefully in an upcoming Development Update we'll be able to announce the completion of this work and you will have never even known it took place."

AWS stands for Amazon Web Services.  It's Amazon Elastic Compute Cloud (Amazon EC2) mentioned above.

Posted June 03, 2014, (https://community.pl..._40#entry535365), [HWK]HUGHES said, "Some aspects of the game needed more tuning than originally planned and some platform decisions made months and months and months ago proved to be less than ideal and making changes then has ripple effects across the company. Some bumps surfaced during open beta that were in ways not expected so yeah... that helped to contribute to a longer than intended beta duration."

Posted June 27, 2014, (https://community.pl..._40#entry544702), [HWK]HUGHES said,"I'm not going to discuss the realities of our bandwidth or technical debt incurred from decisions made years ago...

Posted June 29, 2014, (https://community.pl...14/#entry545084),[HWK]HUGHES said,"Something that's happening with the project right now is a bit of incurred technical debt that continues to surface and impacts the goals of the company as a whole, not just HAWKEN. We have contracted an external strike team to resolve some of this technical debt and even for them, it takes time. I'll dive into a little more detail on what's going on with this in a below section but it won't change the fact that you, the dedicated players want to know what's coming up.
....
MIGRATION STATUS / STABILITY
As discussed in the last Development Update, we are in the process of migrating databases which includes new software and new hardware. This is still ongoing but has also continued to cause some hiccups in services recently. We had a failing on the new database hardware on Monday and that took HAWKEN down for a while as a more recent example. The further down the rabbit hole we go with this migration, the more issues that tend to surface. It impacts stability in live without question, sometimes taking the service down completely for small chunks of time. It goes without saying this isn't a desired result but the strike team is working on this every day. We have a room in our company wide IM service that's an ongoing conversation on the status of services, servers and automated alarms. I assure you it's a non-stop topic. We are however starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel and we're really looking forward to that time!"

So the above is what I've been able to piece together.  Can anyone here make sense of the "Technical Debt" and how it relates to the Company going silent_

Could it simply be that they told us as much as they can already, that they asked us to be patient, but we keep begged for more updates/information, that they are past the point of being annoyed at us and are now just ignoring us.  

With that idea already mentioned, lets try to have a serious discussion on this topic.

Thanks!

Edited by BurnsHot, September 19 2014 - 11:27 AM.


#2 JukeBarzel

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Posted September 14 2014 - 08:57 AM

That's too funny. Riot!
I should think those that haven't read any of the posts (5 pages each of "dying" or "silence" in Search) that get regurgitated every 6 to 12 hours may be the only ones that try.
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#3 Odinous

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Posted September 14 2014 - 08:59 AM

http://en.wikipedia..../Technical_debt

As i see it things must change(developing side) so some errors won't show up laters on,codes rewritten etc.Its a massive move to do,thats why i was trying to calm people many times before,cause its not that the devs didnt told us,they did,some players just dont realise the work needs to be done to deal with this technical debt.


"The debt can be thought of as work that needs to be done before a particular job can be considered complete or proper. If the debt is not repaid, then it will keep on accumulating interest, making it hard to implement changes later on. Unaddressed technical debt increases software entropy.[/font][font=sans-serif]
As a change is started on a codebase, there is often the need to make other coordinated changes at the same time in other parts of the codebase or documentation. The other required, but uncompleted changes, are considered debt that must be paid at some point in the future. Just like financial debt, these uncompleted changes incur interest on top of interest, making it cumbersome to build a project. Although the term is used in software development primarily, it can also be applied to other professions."

Edited by Odinous, September 14 2014 - 09:00 AM.


#4 EliteShooter

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Posted September 14 2014 - 09:38 AM

You could understand the technical debt as a programming term that means the extra work you'll have to do because you previously used "easy to implement / cheap (quickly written)" code instead of the optimal / best overall solution which has a better design (which obviously will take more time to implement). But the only problem is that the easy quick method will always require modification in the future.

Ward Cunningham describes this concept in 1992 as follows: "Shipping first-time code is like going into debt. A little debt speeds development so long as it is paid back promptly with a rewrite. Objects make the cost of this transaction tolerable. The danger occurs when the debt is not repaid. Every minute spent on not-quite-right code counts as interest on that debt. Entire engineering organizations can be brought to a stand-still under the debt load of an unconsolidated implementation, object-oriented or otherwise."

One more thing to add; a technical debt can result from the work of good programmers under unrealistic project constraints.


What we don't know is whether the quick solutions were a choice by the dev team just because they mean a faster time to market in software development, or they were forced by the sponsors to do so ...

Personally, I think it's the second possibility.

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#5 BurnsHot

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Posted September 14 2014 - 10:14 AM

I added this to the OP.  It could explain why the AU severs are down.

Posted on November 30, 2012, (http://www.forbes.co...onal-marketing/), Mark Long said, "Our server technology has panned out much better than we had hoped. We have dedicated servers on virtual machines. We’re using the cloud as a virtual OS on different cores of a server, which provides greater efficiency. Those machine copies can do anything. We didn’t know if latency would be a problem, but it turns out it’s not an issue at all. We have servers on the East and West Coasts of the U.S., in the UK, Japan and Australia. We get such good pings that we can play on a Japanese or Australian server like it’s downtown Seattle from our Seattle studio. Things work so well that we advanced our plans to go global on Day One. The only territory we aren’t going to be in is China. We’re excited to see what happens as the markets emerge naturally."

#6 SS396

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Posted September 14 2014 - 10:41 AM

Interesting stuff.  Well done BurnsHot.

I don't know that I have anything to add about the reasons for the debt, but I myself think its just a cover for whats really happening and don't feel its the right time to get into that, many of you would just call me crazy and full of conspiracy theories.

One of the things I can add though is that I know why they aren't in China.  In my digging for information I found some info that says theres another company named "KongZhong" that has licensed Hawken from Meteor exclusively for China.  
http://ir.kongzhong....1369&highlight=

Theres even a separate website for it, but it looks like it hasn't been updated in a while.  I'm not sure, I can't read any of it and I'm only going off of the graphics.
http://jj.kongzhong.com/
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#7 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted September 14 2014 - 10:51 AM

View PostSS396, on September 14 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Interesting stuff.  Well done BurnsHot.

I don't know that I have anything to add about the reasons for the debt, but I myself think its just a cover for whats really happening and don't feel its the right time to get into that, many of you would just call me crazy and full of conspiracy theories.

One of the things I can add though is that I know why they aren't in China.  In my digging for information I found some info that says theres another company named "KongZhong" that has licensed Hawken from Meteor exclusively for China.  
http://ir.kongzhong....&highlight=

Theres even a separate website for it, but it looks like it hasn't been updated in a while.  I'm not sure, I can't read any of it and I'm only going off of the graphics.
http://jj.kongzhong.com/
You can't even Google translate much of it either.
Alas, I may be Chinese by blood, but I never did learned much Chinese. I know more Swedish in fact.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#8 DerMax

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Posted September 14 2014 - 11:25 AM

View PostSS396, on September 14 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Interesting stuff.  Well done BurnsHot.

I don't know that I have anything to add about the reasons for the debt, but I myself think its just a cover for whats really happening and don't feel its the right time to get into that, many of you would just call me crazy and full of conspiracy theories.

One of the things I can add though is that I know why they aren't in China.  In my digging for information I found some info that says theres another company named "KongZhong" that has licensed Hawken from Meteor exclusively for China.  
http://ir.kongzhong....1369&highlight=

Theres even a separate website for it, but it looks like it hasn't been updated in a while.  I'm not sure, I can't read any of it and I'm only going off of the graphics.
http://jj.kongzhong.com/

As you can see, the latest news on that website are dated 2013, meaning that the site is as dead as Richard the Lionheart.

Edited by DerMax, September 14 2014 - 11:25 AM.


#9 SS396

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Posted September 14 2014 - 11:34 AM

View PostDerMax, on September 14 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

As you can see, the latest news on that website are dated 2013, meaning that the site is as dead as Richard the Lionheart.

__  uh, sorry but I said I couldn't read it, so I'm not able to "see" it for myself.
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#10 EliteShooter

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Posted September 14 2014 - 11:44 AM

I'm chinese :D









Actually no ...

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#11 DerMax

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Posted September 14 2014 - 11:45 AM

View PostSS396, on September 14 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

View PostDerMax, on September 14 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

As you can see, the latest news on that website are dated 2013, meaning that the site is as dead as Richard the Lionheart.

__  uh, sorry but I said I couldn't read it, so I'm not able to "see" it for myself.

But but... they are on the front page!

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#12 BurnsHot

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Posted September 14 2014 - 12:12 PM

View PostSS396, on September 14 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

I myself think its just a cover for whats really happening and don't feel its the right time to get into that, many of you would just call me crazy and full of conspiracy theories.

If you know something just come out and tell us already.  Does this Tech Debt have anything to do with the Silence_

I'm starting to think that Hughes is getting pulled in different directions from different bosses_  The Chinese apparently bought the license for $18 million dollars.  Maybe they are calling the shots now and we know the China will tell you to pound sand all day long.  Do they suffer from too many cooks in the kitchen_

Here is the article: Hawken publisher collects $18 million in second round of funding.

http://www.polygon.c...ound-of-funding

"Meteor Entertainment raised $18 million in its second round of funding for free-to-play multiplayer online mech battler Hawken, bringing the company's total funding for the title to $28.5 million, reports VentureBeat.

Rustic Canyon Ventures technology investors and Chinese mobile games company KongZhong, publisher for Hawken in China, have joined FirstMark Capital and Benchmark Capital as the game's backers."

#13 SS396

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Posted September 14 2014 - 12:46 PM

View PostBurnsHot, on September 14 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

If you know something just come out and tell us already.  Does this Tech Debt have anything to do with the Silence_

I'm starting to think that Hughes is getting pulled in different directions from different bosses_  The Chinese apparently bought the license for $18 million dollars.  Maybe they are calling the shots now and we know the China will tell you to pound sand all day long.  Do they suffer from too many cooks in the kitchen_

Here is the article: Hawken publisher collects $18 million in second round of funding.

http://www.polygon.c...ound-of-funding

"Meteor Entertainment raised $18 million in its second round of funding for free-to-play multiplayer online mech battler Hawken, bringing the company's total funding for the title to $28.5 million, reports VentureBeat.

Rustic Canyon Ventures technology investors and Chinese mobile games company KongZhong, publisher for Hawken in China, have joined FirstMark Capital and Benchmark Capital as the game's backers."

I can't, I wish that I could but I can't.  The information I have isn't very conclusive, it shows something is going on, but its not as discernible as seeing black from white.  I'm also pretty sure that the people on the forums aren't ready to see it, and it could cause even more doomsday threads.  Thats the biggest reason why I'm withholding the info that I have.

I don't know what this tech debt is that Hughes talks about, nor do I know if its related to the silence, I have a hunch that the silence is because of another reason, but its only a hunch.  You said "different bosses" and I will give you a hint on what I think and its only one single boss thats controlling things and forcing the others to remain quiet.  You've got the companies listed, you just haven't pointed the finger at the big fish yet.  I also don't know the exact reason for why, I've come to what I think could be a reason why, but again, I have no evidence on a reason.

What I can tell you is your conclusions above are not exactly correct.  You are mixing up things.

The chinese license is completely separate from the investment funding.  The money they raised from venture capitalists Benchmark and Rustic Canyon are not related to it.

Edited by SS396, September 14 2014 - 12:56 PM.

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#14 Pelax

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Posted September 14 2014 - 01:00 PM

Meh.. old news from 2012. But that's how Chinese market works - you wanna come in with your product to our country_ We will allow it for a substantial shares. China will handle all from there now. But only in China. But perhaps China will expand their policies some day...

That's not Europe's or US' 'free trade' market.

#15 DerMax

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Posted September 14 2014 - 01:40 PM

Info on investments (for those interested): http://www.crunchbas...r-entertainment

#16 SS396

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Posted September 14 2014 - 01:51 PM

View PostDerMax, on September 14 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Info on investments (for those interested): http://www.crunchbas...r-entertainment

Ah, some good valid info and sleuthing going on there.  Well done.

I myself like this page the best.
http://www.crunchbas...ights/investors


Its interesting to see the links from Trion, to Riot, to Red 5, to eBay and Instagram.  Its like a page of winners that just keeps going and going.

It certainly explains why they used specific software like Zendesk and Vivox.

The biggest thing on that listing is its related to the supposed to be 10 Billion dollar company SnapChat.

Edited by SS396, September 14 2014 - 01:54 PM.

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#17 DerMax

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Posted September 14 2014 - 02:02 PM

View PostSS396, on September 14 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

View PostDerMax, on September 14 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Info on investments (for those interested): http://www.crunchbas...r-entertainment

Ah, some good valid info and sleuthing going on there.  Well done.

I myself like this page the best.
http://www.crunchbas...ights/investors


Its interesting to see the links from Trion, to Riot, to Red 5, to eBay and Instagram.  Its like a page of winners that just keeps going and going.

It certainly explains why they used specific software like Zendesk and Vivox.

The biggest thing on that listing is its related to the supposed to be 10 Billion dollar company SnapChat.

The list goes on and on. It even has Twitter in it. But how is it related to SnapChat_

Edited by DerMax, September 14 2014 - 02:02 PM.


#18 SS396

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Posted September 14 2014 - 02:23 PM

Because Benchmark invested in SnapChat and told the kids not to sell to facebook for 3 billion dollars a few months ago.  Now its estimated at 10 billion.  They are just laughing their way to the bank, I'm not sure that I think they are in it for anything other than just making the most money it possibly can.  It doesn't seem like they are looking to make things better, only to make the most massive amounts of money possible.
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#19 DerMax

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Posted September 14 2014 - 02:32 PM

View PostSS396, on September 14 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Because Benchmark invested in SnapChat and told the kids not to sell to facebook for 3 billion dollars a few months ago.  Now its estimated at 10 billion.  They are just laughing their way to the bank, I'm not sure that I think they are in it for anything other than just making the most money it possibly can.  It doesn't seem like they are looking to make things better, only to make the most massive amounts of money possible.

Meaning that if something fails to monetize well, they'll just kill it to not lose any more money_

That's odd, because Mitch Lasky of Benchmark seems to be pumped up regarding Hawken and F2P games in general, as can be seen in a number of interviews found here:

http://venturebeat.com/tag/hawken/

Edited by DerMax, September 14 2014 - 02:33 PM.


#20 SS396

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Posted September 14 2014 - 02:45 PM

View PostDerMax, on September 14 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Meaning that if something fails to monetize well, they'll just kill it to not lose any more money_

That's odd, because Mitch Lasky of Benchmark seems to be pumped up regarding Hawken and F2P games in general, as can be seen in a number of interviews found here:

http://venturebeat.com/tag/hawken/

I really don't have an answer for that man, I wish I did.  All I can say is maybe he's not so pumped up for Hawken anymore because it didn't grow as fast as he witnessed League of Legends firsthand.  I mean, all in all, they tried to replicate the explosion that LoL had and for some reason, it just didn't happen.  Maybe they have given up, I don't know, but my hunch is this, that "big fish" is the guy in control, and he's the reason why everyones been silenced cause he's the one with the controlling stock in Meteor.  Maybe he's trying to keep the company from hemorrhaging more money until he can find someone else to invest and he can get out.

I'd think that losing 10 million bucks is ok if I was going to make a few billion in the next few months, but then again, I'm not a greedy business man thats had nothing but winners on my investment listing and doesn't want to see the first failure tarnish my record.

While digging for info, I found this a week or two back and it pretty much cemented things for me.
https://community.pl...s-to-the-devil/
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