137 replies to this topic

[Sylhiri]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 15 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

What I do know is that in the past _______, ________ developers, have faced what could be considered major "technical debt" issues, causing them to revamp the game 3 times, completely redoing systems and balance.

AsianJoyKiller, on September 15 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

...as far as I know, ________ is their only game. Their first game.

Whole situation is crazy. ________ is a first time studio who somehow got backed to the tune of tens of millions of dollars...

...If they hadn't gone on developing the game in the mindset that they were better and smarter than their community in every single regard, they probably never would have had to overhaul the game multiple times.

Why does this seem familiar...

[SS396]

Sylhiri, on September 15 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Why does this seem familiar...

Yeah, I was feeling a bit of deja vu when I was reading that a second ago.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Sylhiri, on September 15 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Why does this seem familiar...

I've always said that Adhesive kept making the same mistakes that Red5 did. Up until a few months ago, the development process of both games was eerily similar, and the only difference was that Red5 kept making the mistakes first.
I know I made text-walls about the similarities multiple times, specifically for HAB and the Technician.

I might have seemed crazy at the time, but my rants about where these sort of actions would take them don't see so far-fetched now.

[EliteShooter]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 15 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

I've got a high fever right now

1- Laugh at me a lot.
2- Make 2 slices of onion (2 millimeters think each).
3- Put them on the back of your feet.
4- Wear a sock to keep them there.
5- Sleep.
6- Wake up stronger and finer than ever.
7- Thank me a lot.





No joke.

[BurnsHot]

Now that someone else (AJK) has weighed in on Firefall.  I will go ahead and talk about it.

Its kind of funny that I was ignorant to all of AJK's postings about Firefall, but pretty much came to the same conclusions as to the "eerily similar" development track. I'll point out other aspects that caught my attention.

What I've read about Firefail is that they started out trying to be a PVP Esports game.  They heavily invested in it, and the game play and mechanics were well received by players, but there was a problem.

There weren't enough players joining the game for PVP.

The CEO's looked at the bottom line and decided that the PVP aspect of the game was not where most of the players were spending their time.  The CEO decided to remove PVP from the open beta which, as you can imagine, pissed off the PVP player base.

The company practically did a 180 and focused on creating Player vs Environment content/quest and crafting to attract and keep players.  From what I can tell, now that the game is on Steam,  they have since added PVP back into the game but it is walled off until your char reaches level 30 and even then its just a small portion of the game.

I didn't want to believe that a game company would scrap an entire idea but apparently its happened with Firefall.  After reading the article, it made me think. Could something like what happened to Firefall happen to Hawken_

With the recent infusion of Money from the Chinese, I don't think that Hawken is struggling right now.  There is the separate issue of growing the player base and retention that is weighing on them. If they cannot figure out how to do that then we all lose, the investors and the core player base.

Could ADH be considering expanding the PVE content with more co-op bot destruction_  Will they add more of an MMO aspect to the game or even some kind of crafting to attract more players/spending customers_  I don't know whats in store, but any company is going to follow the money and that means this game might be in for a drastic change.

If you think I'm crazy read this one quote from the old CEO of Red5, Mark Kern:

"As you know, Firefall started with PvP.  We have gone through several iterations, and for some time, pursued the controversial e-Sports route. As many of you know, it’s not working very well. Our last big attempt was a pure PvP eSports mode, Jetball. While very fun, it’s a high-skill game and doesn’t attract many of our players (less than 3 percent PvP in Firefall).”  


The part about it being a high-skilled game that doesn't attract many players worries me the most.

If you are interested you can read the Firefall article here: http://www.gamefront...studios-part-1/

Edited by BurnsHot, September 16 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

A large part of what was wrong about Firefall's PvP was largely balanced related.

At first they had it in their head that they would be the first MMO to successfully make PvE and PvP gear one and the same. As you might image, when the quality of the gear is dependent on RNG drops and grinding, that doesn't end up well.

Plus there were various issues with certain classes being stupidly easy to use while having tremendous amounts of power. Generally, balance issues from pandering to the lowest common denominator of players.

All while intentionally trying to build an eSports game. I don't think they've really ever understood what it means to have an eSports viable game. You don't just slap a bunch of features (such as spectator mode and replays) on a game and it suddenly becomes an eSport. You actually have to design the mechanics to be fun and interesting to watch.

The last Firefall PvP competitive meta I saw was basically everybody bunches together for easy healing, and the two teams stay as far away from each other as possible, while their snipers try to take someone out. Nobody goes on the offensive till the other team loses a player. Before that, it was something like snipers were completely useless, so don't take one, and follow your medic/Jug combo around as Assaults.

EDIT:
Burns, the thing about Jetball is that only the gamemode was high-skill.
All the mechanics of shooting, moving and whatnot were still low-skill derpiness.

Think of chess.
An incredibly nuanced game, but the quality of the match is only as good as the players.

And in videogames, mechanics tend to put a hard cap on the quality of a player. You can only do what the mechanics allow, and if the mechanics of moving, shooting, using abilities, etc. are bad, then it doesn't matter how good the game type is if you're restricted by other means.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, September 15 2014 - 07:54 PM.

[EliteShooter]

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

The part about it being a high-skilled game that doesn't attract many players worries me the most.

A big portion of gamers look for things that will satisfy them about themselves.

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

http://www.geekwire....-office-closes/

[EliteShooter]

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

http://www.geekwire....-office-closes/

*facepalm*

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

**SNIP** wrong company removing since its in error

Edited by ThatDamnedBoedy, September 15 2014 - 08:53 PM.

[Silverfire]

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

http://www.glassdoor...ews-E218571.htm

despite the anonymity this might shed more light in some ways.

It sheds no light as Hawken was produced by Meteor Entertainment NOT Meteor Games which is listed here in your link.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

http://www.glassdoor...ews-E218571.htm

despite the anonymity this might shed more light in some ways.

Wrong company.

[BurnsHot]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 15 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Burns, the thing about Jetball is that only the gamemode was high-skill.
All the mechanics of shooting, moving and whatnot were still low-skill derpiness.

EliteShooter, on September 15 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

The part about it being a high-skilled game that doesn't attract many players worries me the most.

A big portion of gamers look for things that will satisfy them about themselves.

I guess to dumb it down, it seems like Hawken does not appeal to the mass Sheep.  Not enough of them stick around maybe due to the high learning curve of the game.  Plus we have Wolf Smurfs getting fat off the Sheep and further reducing the herd.

The more I think about it, the Technician makes a lot of sense now.  I guess the Devs looked at the numbers too and that was their driving force in introducing a Sheep friendly mech.

The Dev silence could indicate a major change to the current version of Hawken and a move in the direction of a more Sheep friendly game (modes, mechs, etc).

We are just outsiders.  The devs probably know more intimate details about what happened to Firefall and probably don't want to make the same mistakes or they just might follow Firefall's example and revamp the entire game and I'm not talking about going back to the old Hawken.

I'm talking about appealing to the mass Sheep that graze on PVE content all day long.

Edited by BurnsHot, September 15 2014 - 08:52 PM.

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

hell they still list their main address on the website as the office they closed in Seattle.  They say on their jobs site they are based in LA but neither google maps nor bing maps reveal the location of their supposed office.  For all we know Meteor is just a bank account and PO Box somewhere in LA.

The company size is listed as being 11-50 and I suspect that 11 is a close number and probably only includes one or two senior people and some temp staff and an office manager.  Most likely they are searching for new sources of funding and some way to enhance promotion.  

I remember when they let their art staff go.  Y'know the stuff you all pay money for_  They fired their moneymakers.  Haha.haaaaaaa.  Whatever.

and yes apparently wrong company.

Edited by ThatDamnedBoedy, September 15 2014 - 08:51 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

The more I think about it, the Technician makes a lot of sense now.  I guess the Devs looked at the numbers too and that was their driving force in introducing a Sheep friendly mech.

The tech was marketed as a less skill-intensive option for players.

It was Vanu's baby. But what can you expect from a guy who also thought the older turret modes didn't have any major issues_

[SS396]

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

hell they still list their main address on the website as the office they closed in Seattle.  They say on their jobs site they are based in LA but neither google maps nor bing maps reveal the location of their supposed office.  For all we know Meteor is just a bank account and PO Box somewhere in LA.

No, you might not know the address but many of us do, and it doesn't matter unless you live in the area and would like to go there.

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

The company size is listed as being 11-50 and I suspect that 11 is a close number and probably only includes one or two senior people and some temp staff and an office manager.  Most likely they are searching for new sources of funding and some way to enhance promotion.  

That number might still be too high.  Not sure though.

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

I remember when they let their art staff go.  Y'know the stuff you all pay money for_  They fired their moneymakers.  Haha.haaaaaaa.  Whatever.

Whats so funny_  Don't you realize that the art assets we are using currently were done years go_  Who's to say that there isn't gigs of art sitting on a server waiting to be implemented.  The camo's are not that hard to add to the game.

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

and yes apparently wrong company.

Yes, yes it was.  You are going to have to spend a little more than 2 minutes searching on google to get any information that we haven't already discussed in this and AJK's other thread.

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

SS396, on September 15 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

hell they still list their main address on the website as the office they closed in Seattle.  They say on their jobs site they are based in LA but neither google maps nor bing maps reveal the location of their supposed office.  For all we know Meteor is just a bank account and PO Box somewhere in LA.

No, you might not know the address but many of us do, and it doesn't matter unless you live in the area and would like to go there.

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

The company size is listed as being 11-50 and I suspect that 11 is a close number and probably only includes one or two senior people and some temp staff and an office manager.  Most likely they are searching for new sources of funding and some way to enhance promotion.  

That number might still be too high.  Not sure though.

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

I remember when they let their art staff go.  Y'know the stuff you all pay money for_  They fired their moneymakers.  Haha.haaaaaaa.  Whatever.

Whats so funny_  Don't you realize that the art assets we are using currently were done years go_  Who's to say that there isn't gigs of art sitting on a server waiting to be implemented.  The camo's are not that hard to add to the game.

ThatDamnedBoedy, on September 15 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

and yes apparently wrong company.

Yes, yes it was.  You are going to have to spend a little more than 2 minutes searching on google to get any information that we haven't already discussed in this and AJK's other thread.

no I don't wanna go there.  And that isn't the point.  The point is that their contact page still lists erroneous information and they have shown zero initiative in updating it.  Which leads one to believe that they are in a search for more money to fund the game.  

As to the whether or not t hey have more art to release...I'm on the side that they probably have a backlog of a few things, but nothing that will inspire a horde of people to spend money on it enough to monetize the game properly.  The company has zero presence on the web aside from a few job postings for technical positions and honestly looks terrible.  And the whole thing is funny in a tragic sense.  I laugh with a tear in my eye.

There are plenty of other FPS games out there however and there is at least one other mech game.  Its no FPS but it is a decent sim.  So I will continue to play this game in the hopes that it does come back to life.  I am not however holding my breath.

[EliteShooter]

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

I guess to dumb it down, it seems like Hawken does not appeal to the mass Sheep.  Not enough of them stick around maybe due to the high learning curve of the game.  Plus we have Wolf Smurfs getting fat off the Sheep and further reducing the herd.

The more I think about it, the Technician makes a lot of sense now.  I guess the Devs looked at the numbers too and that was their driving force in introducing a Sheep friendly mech.

The Dev silence could indicate a major change to the current version of Hawken and a move in the direction of a more Sheep friendly game (modes, mechs, etc).

We are just outsiders.  The devs probably know more intimate details about what happened to Firefall and probably don't want to make the same mistakes or they just might follow Firefall's example and revamp the entire game and I'm not talking about going back to the old Hawken.

Well, HAWKEN was never made to be an MMO. Just like you said, it appeals to people who love badass robots, and appreciate challenge, which is such a big part of this amazing game.



The grinding and the smurfing problems are also a great thing you pointed out to. Especially since stuff has to be unlocked, then bought. That's a tedious thing for players who just want to acquire everything and then go at it. They should totally get rid of the weapons-items-internal locking and leave whoever has enough to get whatever he wants. That could also encourage buying HC codes.

Smurf accounts are an expected result of the lack of players. It's caused by it, and it contributes to it. Though I look at the community events as a thing that's starting to limit, not end, but limit this problem, as they provide pro players with a better more satisfying environment.


Hughes said that HAWKEN will not drastically change. And I'll be totally honest with you, I don't think he's lying. He said it with confidence, and I'm sure, that when he said that, he was aware or has expected this cheese (the current silent, BS ...) to happen. So I eliminate that possibility, even though, when it comes to business, we all know that nothing else matters more than the money, and promises could be broken as easy as pie! And hopefully that won't happen.




HAWKEN has been getting closer and closer to the kind of game that will satisfy what you called sheep. You know that, I know that, we all know that. We played the open beta HAWKEN together for a while, and we know how different it is now; Very different, much easier gameplay.

Any further major modifications, or a total revamp to make the game a totally sheep friendly game will do one thing; make us all quit it for good, GARENDAMNTEED.

[HugeGuts]

BurnsHot, on September 15 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

Could ADH be considering expanding the PVE content with more co-op bot destruction_  Will they add more of an MMO aspect to the game or even some kind of crafting to attract more players/spending customers_  I don't know whats in store, but any company is going to follow the money and that means this game might be in for a drastic change.

I can see a PvE reboot saving Hawken. Though the question then is would it actually have interesting and unique game play, or just a bare bones grind fest_

[StubbornPuppet]

To tap back in to something a few others were pondering...

Adhesive Games might still have a few people working, but seeing as the 4 top executives from Meteor Entertainment (not Games) are all now with other companies... I just don't think M.E. exists any longer.