208 replies to this topic

[Duralumi]

I'm gonna keep saying it, tech isn't OP if you shoot him. He can be killed in 2 shots for god's sake, just shoot him and you're good!

What MMR are the servers that you're playing on at if you can simply just "shoot the tech"?

A competent Tech is gonna be using everything possible as a barrier between you and it.

 

 

What if being healed by a tech made you unable to shoot while being healed ? i think this would solve the incin-tech massacre problem. And you would still maintain mobility while healing as opposed to just holding down 'c'. Also the green beam is ridiculous. Remove that and give the tech something like the bruiser's ability.

Far too much griefing potential.

[-Tj-]

Oh hey, lemme just lob a grenade over the map and BAM, tech's ded, not it's 6v5 and my team wins. gg.

 

It already does, what are you talking about?

 

Does it? Last I recall it doesn't show up on radar if it's just healing, since I've heard Techs healing through walls but not showing on radar. Shooting, yeah, but not healing. Maybe it does only if it's actually healing or something.

 

Anyway, I'm not suggesting a "one grenade and boom" reduction, that's just ridiculous. It isn't meant to front line any battles, and it repairs itself as it repairs other mechs. If it's properly protected then it shouldn't be an issue.

[DisorderlyMechanic]

All i can say is anyone who wants to get rid of the tech is just butthurt because they can't deal with it. Rather than trying to remove the tech from the game wouldn't it be easier to ask how to deal with it?

[Dr_Freeze001]

Does it? Last I recall it doesn't show up on radar if it's just healing, since I've heard Techs healing through walls but not showing on radar. Shooting, yeah, but not healing. Maybe it does only if it's actually healing or something.

 

Anyway, I'm not suggesting a "one grenade and boom" reduction, that's just ridiculous. It isn't meant to front line any battles, and it repairs itself as it repairs other mechs. If it's properly protected then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

 

I actually tested this out not so long ago, and it's the damaged mech that shows up on radar. This can be either the tech (when he's damaged), the mech he's repairing, or both. Also note that this does not linger, so the second you're not actually repairing armor, even when still connected,  the radar signature disappears.

 

The problem with the 'If it's properly being protected' argument is that the being instakilled doesn't requite you to be anywhere close to the team. Lob a grenade over, detonate it, and gone is the tech without him or his team ever knowing it was coming.

 

Reducing the tech's armor is reducing the time he has to react to getting shot at, which is pretty difficult already. Not every map gives sufficient cover. Even now, if someone focuses you down the chance of you escaping is quite low.  

 

 

 

 

What MMR are the servers that you're playing on at if you can simply just "shoot the tech"?

A competent Tech is gonna be using everything possible as a barrier between you and it.

 

 

Far too much griefing potential.

 

 

And a competent player will focus the tech first. I play around the 2200 mmr range with people like rozer, kopra and apples. I used to play against Vodka People before they went is a vodka-induced coma. Blockades are the reason you can detonate TOW's and grenades in mid air, and they do a lot of damage. Use the splash damage on your weapon of choice. If a scoot wants me dead I will die, no matter how well I green beam or try to run away.

 

Good players will fight good players, and if this isn't the case then it's a fault of matchmaking, not the technitian.

 

But that again is the point of sticking to your team, so that they can kill the scoot or raider or infil faster than it can kill you. 

[Brawler_Yukon]

So I've read every post in this topic and I can safely say that most of these ideas wouldn't work because they fundamentally change what the tech is, which just doesn't work because you might as well just remove the tech and get another A-Class striker instead. What really needs to happen is that they either need to reduce the healing beams healing by 5-10% and balance that out by giving it 30 more health, or change the beams tactics, change it to be that the healing beam is a projectile instead that does a set amount of repair, but has low RoF. And concerning the Incinerator, reduce the Inc. heat gathering by 50% for the tech, so it doesn't nerf both of them into the tech never healing the Inc because there's no point, but doesn't make them as good as they are now. Attrition instead of a literal brick wall.

 

 

3. Redox-02, PN-223. Really? These are the weapons you've got? One does AoE debuff with a slow projectile, and the other's a short-range low-damage three shot burst. Almost any tech worth his salt will use the Hawkins RPR so he's not entirely useless in a fight.

 

</opinion>

 

 

I have to wonder what people do with the PN-223, because I use it and it's amazingly effective as a finisher, and even in base combat it's highly effective at ripping through enemy health. Using it and the Deconstructor you can do some suicidal but rewarding moves that really work, so I honestly don't see why you'd even bother with the RPR since the PN-223 has a enough RoF and low enough heat that you can 1v1 a lot of B-classes on your own. Maybe I'm just fighting bad players.

[Dr_Freeze001]

Alright, An idea has come up:

 

When connected to a friendly mech reduce movement speed by 75%. The tech would take the role of a repair station more than a pocket health dispenser., being easier to hit and kill, removing  the potential for a kill-ball and overall changing the team dynamic to a slower, defensive play-style.

[Brawler_Yukon]

Alright, An idea has come up:

 

When connected to a friendly mech reduce movement speed by 75%. The tech would take the role of a repair station more than a pocket health dispenser., being easier to hit and kill, removing  the potential for a kill-ball and overall changing the team dynamic to a slower, defensive play-style.

75% is far too much, you're actively punishing the Tech for doing their job, reduce it to like 35%, or make it that they receive a 15% damage debuff, making them easier to damage but not sugar glass weak.

[GalaxyRadio]

Alright, An idea has come up:

 

When connected to a friendly mech reduce movement speed by 75%. The tech would take the role of a repair station more than a pocket health dispenser., being easier to hit and kill, removing  the potential for a kill-ball and overall changing the team dynamic to a slower, defensive play-style.

 

Just one word, NO

 

For example, take AA in Siege on Origin, only to heal a teammates, using air Dodges + Ground dodges try to stick to your team and avoid getting killed after just 2 seconds is with 100% of my max Speed already very hard. If i loose any speed, i would mostly die instantly before i can even reach the aa and this said with 2-3 teammates around me.

 

The only thing what makes the technician not 100% of the time a glass broken mech is only and i said this for sure only my tactic and speed. If i loose this, the technician would be worthless in any highspeed and filled with action games. I would die in Wreckage constantly with that, as i have to run all the time. It would also kill my "heal and still stick to teammates move" Healing while dodging forward to heal and move together behind boosting slow classes. Many times iam also healing teammates in the air using air dodge to avoid getting killed instantly or fly to another level around corner or from abouve to middle plattform. If i loose airspeed as well, i could only play as a slow mobil repairing station far away from the action, so teammates have to come to me instead i come to them.

 

Galaxy Radio

[Dr_Freeze001]

Just one word, NO

 

-snip-

 

Galaxy Radio

 

 

I agree with you completely, but other people think tech is OP. 

 

Trying to find a compromise. Taking the speed away while repairing would make you vulnerable, thereby making you have to decide between running for your life and trying to live it out. 

 

I say to shoot the tech. They say they can't hit him. So I suggest we make him slower is certain situation and make the tech easier to get shot.

 

The problem is that the question: "Is the tech OP" isn't properly answered yet, so there is no answer to it.

Edited by Dr_Freeze001, 25 March 2015 - 04:13 AM.

[RedVan]

I didn't read the entire thread, but my opinion on the tech is all I'm going to post right now...

 

The tech was the biggest change to hawken that drove me away.  I didn't quit as soon as the tech came, I played that patch quite a bit, but I just got more and more pissed off at it.

 

Why?

 

1.  I don't feel tech is a good fit in an arena shooter.  I cannot think of another that had something similar.  That said, breaking the mold of "arena shooter" isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I just feel like, between self repair and hp orbs, there is plenty of healing that keeps gameplay broken up in a more "arena shooter" sort of way.  This brings me to my next point.

 

2.  Blobs.  Since the tech patch, fighting has condensed far more into mech blobs.  2 (hopefully) blobs just moving around the map.  Kinda takes away some of the fluidity of the combat imo.  I know a big reason for the inclusion of the tech was so that people could get back into the fight sooner, which I don't really mind, I just never felt out of the fight for long in the first place.  I say 2 (hopefully) blobs because of my 3rd point

 

3.  One team has tech, other doesn't.  GG.  If all players are equally skilled, generally the team with a tech is going to win.  In PUBs, a tech can make one team roll over their opponent.  2 techs.  I'm sure many of us have been in matches with 2 techs vs 0 techs.  Really, how tard is that, especially if they have C classes in the mix.  The easy solution is to get a tech on your team.  Well, given the unlock method of hawken, that isn't necessarily always possible.  Even if it is possible, I don't believe that there should be mechs that essentially mandate the same mech is played on the other team.  Bringing me to my fourth point.

 

4.  "Just shoot the tech".  Yes, there are mechs that are quite good at taking out techs.  Keep in mind a fairly equally skilled match, that isn't nearly as easy as people make it sound when they write it in a forum.  Aside from it not being nearly as simple as that, why should one mech be the defining factor of whether a team is able to conquer the other team?  If your team can never take out the tech, odds are your team has lost.  So even if both teams have someone who excels at taking techs out, the game still revolves around taking out the tech.  I, for one, like to play TDM, not "Kill the Tech".  I feel it dumbed gameplay down significantly as it centered focus of combat around one mech.  Before, a team could decide what strat they wanted to use, and who would be focus fired first to best achieve that strat.  And it could change depending on what part of the map they were in.  Now, tech is the #1 goal all day every day.

 

 

How would I fix it?

 

Take it out.  But I know that isn't happening, so here is my idea:

 

Buff the damage capability of the tech, but only allow it to heal someone who is already in the healing position.  This would speed up healing, but give much more emphasis to your team not taking damage, as players would need to account for their loss of contribution, as well as the techs loss of contribution to damaging the enemy.  Make the special ability something that can heal while a player is not in healing position already.

[GalaxyRadio]

I dont have a problem, if the tech could only heal, cause k/d ration is nothing important, only having fun playing is important to me.

 

Get rid of Hawken RPR or the red Weapon from technician and give him something else, so a tech can't do any damage, but get something else as for it.

 

There are many matches, where i did some kills too, because my teammates died while healing and the damaged enemy was almost dead so i finished them off. I would like the idead of having the Torch as healing beam slightly reduced, also get lower exp from healing and for the main "not anymore weapon, i would say "tool" like 1 can give you a short duraction Shield while holding down left mousebutton and you can also heal, but if you do both the heat generation is very high.

 

And as a second tool (main weapon would be only debuff without doing any damage), instead of a shield maybe you can drop your own heal orbs with half capacity as the normal one, but using it only every 1-2min or so. 

 

This would make the technician to a fully support mech role without any chance to fight back. 

 

I dont know, if this would make the technician worthless, because i can't kill anymore, but i had to test this out first to decice if this would break this mech or not. Maybe this could be done with some non official fights between equaly skilled teams (not clans teams so mixed up because every clan have really strong players can even break clan fights). But to get really some ideads, if this works, you have to make rounds without tech, then 1 team with technician some rounds, then the other with some rounds, then both having them and then with changing technician to whatever it will be and run the same rounds again. It would, of course, takes some days/weeks to get this done and some people willing to test this out. 

 

I would so as Dr. Freezer iam sure, there are some other really good technician in the game not playing them very often, but if they do, they are equally skilled to Dr. Freezer.

 

Galaxy Radio

[Grollourdo]

the tech aint op cuz every mech INCLUDING the tech has advantages and down falls 

 

 

if a mech had NO weakness and only advantages then that mech to me is considered OP 

 

the tech is quick and all and can heal alies (advantages)

 

but he is VERY fragile (lowest hp of the game) and doesnt have that high of a dammage rating 

 

 

so conclusion : tech to me isnt op and there fore doesnt need to get nerfed, crippled or anything

[Grollourdo]

I didn't read the entire thread, but my opinion on the tech is all I'm going to post right now...

 

The tech was the biggest change to hawken that drove me away.  I didn't quit as soon as the tech came, I played that patch quite a bit, but I just got more and more pissed off at it.

 

Why?

 

1.  I don't feel tech is a good fit in an arena shooter.  I cannot think of another that had something similar.  That said, breaking the mold of "arena shooter" isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I just feel like, between self repair and hp orbs, there is plenty of healing that keeps gameplay broken up in a more "arena shooter" sort of way.  This brings me to my next point.

 

2.  Blobs.  Since the tech patch, fighting has condensed far more into mech blobs.  2 (hopefully) blobs just moving around the map.  Kinda takes away some of the fluidity of the combat imo.  I know a big reason for the inclusion of the tech was so that people could get back into the fight sooner, which I don't really mind, I just never felt out of the fight for long in the first place.  I say 2 (hopefully) blobs because of my 3rd point

 

3.  One team has tech, other doesn't.  GG.  If all players are equally skilled, generally the team with a tech is going to win.  In PUBs, a tech can make one team roll over their opponent.  2 techs.  I'm sure many of us have been in matches with 2 techs vs 0 techs.  Really, how tard is that, especially if they have C classes in the mix.  The easy solution is to get a tech on your team.  Well, given the unlock method of hawken, that isn't necessarily always possible.  Even if it is possible, I don't believe that there should be mechs that essentially mandate the same mech is played on the other team.  Bringing me to my fourth point.

 

4.  "Just shoot the tech".  Yes, there are mechs that are quite good at taking out techs.  Keep in mind a fairly equally skilled match, that isn't nearly as easy as people make it sound when they write it in a forum.  Aside from it not being nearly as simple as that, why should one mech be the defining factor of whether a team is able to conquer the other team?  If your team can never take out the tech, odds are your team has lost.  So even if both teams have someone who excels at taking techs out, the game still revolves around taking out the tech.  I, for one, like to play TDM, not "Kill the Tech".  I feel it dumbed gameplay down significantly as it centered focus of combat around one mech.  Before, a team could decide what strat they wanted to use, and who would be focus fired first to best achieve that strat.  And it could change depending on what part of the map they were in.  Now, tech is the #1 goal all day every day.

 

 

 

 

I see that u wont realy pay atention to this thread anymore but still XD ima reply to u XD

 

the thing is that 

 

(to me)

 

Hawken is about team work right? 

 

 

well generally all mechs of the team counts, 

the goal isnt about killing the tech, its a team strategy to eliminate a tech to then take out the remaining team,

its all team work and tactics, 

 

if the other team has tech, its not nececarily the reason u ll lose, its the game play and the tactics that matter, 

 

if the other team has tech , of course they have an advantage, healing and all, 

but they also have a disadvantage, 

 

1 they now "depend" on the tech (usually if its a good team, if not then .... wow ..... they are scatered and tech isnt in a group etc u know what i mean)

2 they now have a week spot, the tech it self , i know that alot of people say "then just shoot the tech" but its true, if u eliminate the tech then u criticaly criple the enemy team.

 

 

 

lets say both teams are equally skilled,

 

even if they have the tech u can allways counter, 

 

the only way i think a team can lose against an organized team (usually when theres a tech the team is organized lol (with alot of exeptions of course)) is a dissorganised team,

 

in hawken tech or no tech usually, the organized team kills the unorganized theam right? etc all the possibilitys etc.....

 

then theres skill, learn how to counter a situation 

 

if ur gettin rolled over, dont look at all the problems, think of what u can do to counter the problems and therefore learning new counters and all XD

 

 

idk if i put all my ideas out but atm i think i did XD

 

 

groll XD

 

feel free to brain storm or point out things that might be wrong or right XD

[MomOw]

I like discussion between GalaxyRadio and Dr_Freeze when it comes about techie :-)

 

I agree that a techie can in some match break the balance, and that a techie require less skill than other mechs (as openly stated by the previous team).

 

Now if you remove the insane symbiosis between the techie and the incinerator (remove the passive heat absorption of the incinerator is an option) and if you either change its ability to pop an orb and/or increase the heat generated by the helix you'll nerf a bit the techie and add some skill (pop the orb wisely, or think before healing whatever mech is in front of you to avoid useless overheating).

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

Having read through this thread it sounds like some people have never played a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock. Hawken is just a mech version of the same game. Stating any mech is "OP" implies that it can effectively destroy statistically significant more Mechs than can effectively destroy it. So if there is a fairly close 50/50 balance between pro and con, that is just part of the game. Even if we don't like how that forces us to change our game play. (Heck... play 1-on-1 DM and the Technician is at a 100% disadvantage!) In the end

 

IMHO: I feel like some are arguing that they stopped liking playing as much because "adding Spock and Lizard to the traditional game made the game unplayable" when in reality it just made it more complex and forced a strategy/playstyle change, not actually making it qualitatively/quantitatively "worse".

 

The points I have read in this thread regarding "advantages and disadvantages" seem to predominantly be focused on tactics, map builds, and game functionality (the whole "show on radar when healing" thing.) All of which seem to be to be "part of the game". Having played the game as a tech (and probably not very well) my opinion is that the tech can make the difference in a "stand there and slug it out" but in reality if there is a lot of jumping and dodging and sprinting the tech's effectiveness is greatly reduced. Not to mention, if the team is even moderately spread out or taking the fight to an area with not much cover the Tech is pretty much Fuzzy Bunnied! So for the Tech to make the most difference the team its on needs to adapt its tactics to take advantage which means the other team can now adapt as well. (Say, put a Rocketeer, Grenadier, and/or a Sniper up on a high position and rain fire on the "less mobile" opponent focusing field of fire on traditional "hiding" areas but also having the ability to provide supporting fire on the objective. In the mean time having the remaining team members assault and secure the objective.)

 

IMHO The only point that doesn't seem to have a functional counter balance in game currently is the Tech + Incinerator combination. I have seen the argument for making the Incinerator not able to pull any heat from the Tech, but that doesn't seem right as it kinda nerfs the Incinerator more than the Tech and eliminates that aspect of Incinerator play. ("Incinerator is OP" being another thread completely...) So I would go with "reducing the heat absorption rate from a Tech" because it achieves breaking the "unstoppable symbiotic" relationship between the two that everyone is stating/claiming and can be made to "make sense" when built into the storyline/lore. ("The Technician mech has a heat efficient design which allows for longer functioning of its primary and secondary weapons/tools. Unfortunately, after deployment to the field, it was discovered by the pilots that this same design caused challenges for the heat absorption devices on the Incinerator. Thus the Incinerator can only harvest XX% of the heat from the Technician that it normally would from other Mechs.")

 

Just my $0.02, feel free to rip apart as appropriate.

Edited by oSPANNERo, 25 March 2015 - 07:35 AM.

[Brawler_Yukon]

 

Buff the damage capability of the tech, but only allow it to heal someone who is already in the healing position.  This would speed up healing, but give much more emphasis to your team not taking damage, as players would need to account for their loss of contribution, as well as the techs loss of contribution to damaging the enemy.  Make the special ability something that can heal while a player is not in healing position already.

That would make it very interesting while still giving it a way to actively help it's teammates, and give it a reason to stick to people. This isn't all that bad of an idea.

 

 

 

I don't have a problem, if the tech could only heal, cause k/d ration is nothing important, only having fun playing is important to me.

 

Get rid of Hawken RPR or the red Weapon from technician and give him something else, so a tech can't do any damage, but get something else as for it.

 

Galaxy Radio

 

That's a very bad idea, you'd be turning an already weak mech into a worthless mech by giving them no options to fight back if they're friends are dead, you've literally just turned it into a free kill for the enemy. Taking away the support's only means of defense wouldn't fix anything, it would just make the support relegated to a walking dispensary that when the rest either run away or die, is just free pickings.

 

 

-snip-

Just my $0.02, feel free to rip apart as appropriate.

I don't think there's much to rip into considering you're just stating how you as  tech player find that the Tech is fairly well balanced as is, and that the only real problem is the Tech+Inc combo, which is unanimously agreed to be a little bit over powered and needs tuning. Honestly the only thing I could say you got wrong is the idea that the team should conform to having a tech, instead of the tech conforming to how the team plays. But that's just my 2¢.

Edited by Brawler_Yukon, 25 March 2015 - 06:49 AM.

[MomOw]

Having read through this thread it sounds like some people have never played a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock. [snip]

 

You mean Bulbasaur-charmander-squirtle game ?

[Brawler_Yukon]

You mean Bulbasaur-charmander-squirtle game?

 

I personally prefer the chattur'gha-ulyaoth-xel'lotath(-mantorok) game.

[Titanus]

i love the tech.  i do quite well using it, i also do quite well killing it.  

 

i can hold my own on a 1 vs 1 and about half the time squeak out a win against any class, but rarely do i lose when i fight a tech using any other mech.   their armour is just so paper thin.  

 

when my team comes up against another team using a tech i focus on that tech, after its dead most of the time its team will follow very quickly.  a good team should play well with or without a tech.  apart from healing, the tech doesn't offer that much offence, when im in the middle of a battle i rarely use my offensive weapon as i need to keep my heat as low as possible.  

 

i dont think the incinerator effect should be changed as well as i often play as a tech and there is no incinerator on my team.  i also play as an incinerator and a lot of time dont have a tech on the team.  

 

changing balance now seems counter productive

 

we need more maps, mechs, game modes.  priorities people

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

<SNIP>. Honestly the only thing I could say you got wrong is the idea that the team should conform to having a tech, instead of the tech conforming to how the team plays. But that's just my 2¢.

 

 

Thanks for the leniency on my post!   I appreciate not going down in flames since I haven't posted much since the last forum went down.

Perhaps I could clarify my statement/opinion/thoughts a little more when it comes to "conforming" play styles:

 

I think the reality is that style in general for a team needs to adapt as a whole based on composition of the team and composition of the enemy. If you have a team of all fast mechs (A & B) and there is one slow mech ©, its hard for the slow mech to adapt to how those fast Fuzzy Bunnies would normally play. Not because the slow mech doesn't want to, but more because they simply can't because they can't move as quickly. And if the Fast Mechs don't adapt their play style, you are going to end up with a slow mech solo on the battlefield and likely to be in a touch of trouble. So all pilots need to "give" a little. The only other option is the slow mech pilot giving up and swaping his mech out for a fast mover which is kinda sucky if that pilot likes the slug it out mechs. (Which in turn can lead to early game abandonment, swapping servers constantly, etc...)

I know this example isn't Technician specific but I think its a bit more of a "Black and White" example of adapting play style being a bit of a two way street. The technician can't survive without adequate cover (I think this was "agreed upon" by most parties assuming the definition can be mechs, terrain, or play style.). So if you have a bunch of players that tend to select open areas of battle, areas with high vantage points looking down on them, provide little supporting cover, or any other factor that eliminates that "cover" element you are really reducing the battlefield sustainability and effectiveness of a Technician while the Technician can do little about it other than find a good place to "take cover" and hope his/her teammates come by at some point or just accept that once they reach the actually area of the battle that they will be taken out every 30 seconds or so.

 

But perhaps I am thinking more "campaign"/"strategy" and less "FPS"?

[Kmaleon73]

But they are saying, you say that Tech should just heal and not attack, it is illogical, is a doctor, is also in Shooters games, the doctor attacks and heals all depends on when the game can attack or just heal, regardless of the ability of each soldier, it seems to me that as this set the fuse is good because it can relatively attack and defend not have the ability to resurrection and that also limits the power of attack or defense team, I actually to tech it would not change for me is perfect as this from the moment he was introduced

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

Again, may be taking this too "real world"/"Litteral"/"Strategic" but I compare the Technician to an IRL Army Medic.

 

1. Primary responsibility is healing of wounded soldiers
2. Should instruct wounded soldiers to continue firing/fighting back if possible while being treated
3. Most combat medics carry a personal weapon, to be used to protect themselves and the wounded or sick in their care.
4. When and if they use their arms offensively, they then sacrifice their protection under the Geneva Conventions.

So based on this, it appears the current Technician is fairly well mapped to IRL:

1. Paper Thin Armor + Relatively Weak "weapon" + Strong repair tool
2. Can heal mechs while they fight
3. Paper Thin Armor + Relatively Weak "Weapon"
4. Loosing the "self healing" functionality if they go on the offensive

 

So the only thing that I can think of as possibly being an outlier is the "red beam" debuff functionality of the Helix Repair Torch also healing the technician. So effectively "rewarding" the Technician for attacking the enemy and providing a secondary "attack" weapon?

So perhaps append "remove healing functionality of red beam" to my previous "reduced heat donation to the Incinerator" suggestion? Or make use of the red-beam in its current incarnation preclude the use of the other weapon? Ethier would remove one of the "advantages" that the Technician has when "attacking" over other mechs. The second idea would allow it to still be used but in a "defensive" manner while running away.

 

But I am not sure I am sold on either idea as they feel half baked. 

 

Another idea along the "need more mechs" line of thought is spin off the "Red Beam" completely to a new CBRNE/Combat Engineer style support mech? Maybe it would be one of the primaries but with extended range? With a secondary that is Multi function like the current Repair Torch but has the characteristics of the Grenade Launcher. It would launch area style damage or debuff attacks but can have detrimental affects to their own team mates?  Maybe lays minefields, deploys Hawken Virus clouds (that dissipate after fixed time), EMP blasts that fry radar till next regen (longer efect than the current "item"), etc.  With "mobile turret" special ability buffing soaking up front damage but maybe not the active debuff for damage from the rear.

 

Maybe the counter balance would be that Class C mechs in mobile turret mode could boost through the minefields with significantly reduced damage and Preditors could be uneffected by EMP or Hawken Cloud when cloaked. (Or something like this.) This being in addition to weak armor like the Technician and slow like a Class C 

 

Thoughts?  (Well other than that whole "new mech" idea probably needing its own thread beyond taking away the red-beam from the Technician all together.)

Edited by oSPANNERo, 25 March 2015 - 09:39 AM.

[RespawningJesus]

Honestly, I don't ever recall anyone ever saying that the Tech was OP. It is just a powerful mech.

The problem the Tech has is the fact that it directly influences the flow of a battle. If one team has a Tech, more than likely, the other team will need a Tech. Not only that, but both teams need to stick to their death ball so that they can keep their Tech as safe as possible. If a team doesn't do this right, then their team will fall apart. This basiclly makes the objective become: kill the Tech. How dull.

Now of course, this is assuming both of our teams are of similar skill. No matter what happens, teamwork will always be OP, so if one team has that teamwork going on, then they are going to win no matter what, irregardless if they use the Tech or not.

The problem lies in the fact that the game was never originally designed for so much sustain. Anyone can heal themselves. They can either take a knee, and heal up, or gather repair orbs that they take from their enemies, or by dropping it themselves. And then we have a Tech, which also heals. And unlike orbs, the Tech can heal anyone, anywhere. (Orbs a
stay in one place.)

So the trick is to make it so that it doesn't end up being a race to finish off the tech. So you end up having to nerf the sustain of the Tech and try nerfing it in such a way that the Tech does not become useless, or in a way so that the Tech no longer directly heals people, but still fills that support role.

[M4st0d0n]

I want a G2Tech with two green beams.

[AMISH KOMMANDER]

The tech isnt an issue unless he is not focused. I'd say that would be nice to see a change in a mech but instead have his special ability apply a dmg absorbing shield that lasts 5-10s. the "Tech" or "Technician" is supposed to heal/ fix mechanical issues. So removing his heal in place of a shield just makes it useless and doesnt fit the "Technician" name. Its like saying, "lets replace the snipers' long range bullets and give it spread shots instead." Doesnt make any sense. But I do like the idea of granting a shield with the repair torch.

[Grollourdo]

Having read through this thread it sounds like some people have never played a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock. Hawken is just a mech version of the same game. Stating any mech is "OP" implies that it can effectively destroy statistically significant more Mechs than can effectively destroy it. So if there is a fairly close 50/50 balance between pro and con, that is just part of the game. Even if we don't like how that forces us to change our game play. (Heck... play 1-on-1 DM and the Technician is at a 100% disadvantage!) In the end

IMHO: I feel like some are arguing that they stopped liking playing as much because "adding Spock and Lizard to the traditional game made the game unplayable" when in reality it just made it more complex and forced a strategy/playstyle change, not actually making it qualitatively/quantitatively "worse".

The points I have read in this thread regarding "advantages and disadvantages" seem to predominantly be focused on tactics, map builds, and game functionality (the whole "show on radar when healing" thing.) All of which seem to be to be "part of the game". Having played the game as a tech (and probably not very well) my opinion is that the tech can make the difference in a "stand there and slug it out" but in reality if there is a lot of jumping and dodging and sprinting the tech's effectiveness is greatly reduced. Not to mention, if the team is even moderately spread out or taking the fight to an area with not much cover the Tech is pretty much Fuzzy Bunnied! So for the Tech to make the most difference the team its on needs to adapt its tactics to take advantage which means the other team can now adapt as well. (Say, put a Rocketeer, Grenadier, and/or a Sniper up on a high position and rain fire on the "less mobile" opponent focusing field of fire on traditional "hiding" areas but also having the ability to provide supporting fire on the objective. In the mean time having the remaining team members assault and secure the objective.)

IMHO The only point that doesn't seem to have a functional counter balance in game currently is the Tech + Incinerator combination. I have seen the argument for making the Incinerator not able to pull any heat from the Tech, but that doesn't seem right as it kinda nerfs the Incinerator more than the Tech and eliminates that aspect of Incinerator play. ("Incinerator is OP" being another thread completely...) So I would go with "reducing the heat absorption rate from a Tech" because it achieves breaking the "unstoppable symbiotic" relationship between the two that everyone is stating/claiming and can be made to "make sense" when built into the storyline/lore. ("The Technician mech has a heat efficient design which allows for longer functioning of its primary and secondary weapons/tools. Unfortunately, after deployment to the field, it was discovered by the pilots that this same design caused challenges for the heat absorption devices on the Incinerator. Thus the Incinerator can only harvest XX% of the heat from the Technician that it normally would from other Mechs.")

Just my $0.02, feel free to rip apart as appropriate.

I completely agree with you in every point man XD

ALSO,
I suggested in a previous thread something for incin ? tech

Ima bring it back here cuz this was mentioned XD

WHY NOT make incin instead of taking all heat from all alies he also does for everyone even enemys,

In the end,

1 enemy's can take advantage of this so it could create a counter and all XD

2 INCINS POWER DOESNT INCREASE XD but the heat absorbed from one mech is decrease since in in absorbs from others too

3 its pretty logic in reality XD how can something extract heat so precisely that it takes ONLY its teammates?

4 it becomes more a support afterwards

5 check out the thread lol too lazy to find all the other arguments XD

6 may another thing cuz the incin might be still over powered to the eyes of some other people?
Incin takes damage if he has too much heat? Its logic and yeah
(I never played in in begor so yeah just tossing my ideas XD)

[FlamingBeaker]

I really, really think RedVan's idea of the Tech only being able to heal mechs already in the healing position is the most elegant fix.

 

I was going to post a suggestion to have the Heal Beam run off of a separate, limited tank (in addition to being able to overheat). Heal tank empty, no heals for you. Refills slowly. Not able to sustain a deathball for very long. Maybe even make it run off of EU when playing in a Seige match. Launch or heals? - choose wisely...

 

But I still think RedVan's idea is better.

[Grollourdo]

I really, really think RedVan's idea of the Tech only being able to heal mechs already in the healing position is the most elegant fix.

I was going to post a suggestion to have the Heal Beam run off of a separate, limited tank (in addition to being able to overheat). Heal tank empty, no heals for you. Refills slowly. Not able to sustain a deathball for very long. Maybe even make it run off of EU when playing in a Seige match. Launch or heals? - choose wisely...

But I still think RedVan's idea is better.

Wow guys.... What's the point of healing some one who is healing themselves? Yeah they'll come back a bit quicker what's the point they are already healing


Normally (if the player is skilled and not dumb XD) the player will heal at some where safe and all so why need a tech???

Mechs already heal reliably fast so what's the point???

[MomOw]

I agree with grollourdo, healing repairing mechs is useless.

 

let's sum up what's wrong with the tech in its actual state : 

- OP symbiosis with the incinerator

- too easy to use

- cause deathballs even more deadly

These are 3 different problems and there are many ways to solve them.

 

An idea came up : make the torch efficiency decrease if you hold the mouse button.

 

It's simple and it could some many of the issues stated above, the "green beam" providing full efficiency for a few seconds.

-> it deals with incin' / tech combo as continuous healing will be less efficient

-> it adds some skill (timing) to the techie playstyle

-> it limit the deathball stuff as it will limit continuous healing

 

here below an example :

- heal 2x actual HPS for the first 0.5s

- heal 1x actual HPS for the next 1.5s

- heal 1/2x actual HPS thereafter

add a cooldown of 3s to get full healing capability back

Edited by MomOw, 26 March 2015 - 01:38 AM.

[defekt]

How would I fix it?

 

Take it out.  But I know that isn't happening, so here is my idea:

 

Buff the damage capability of the tech, but only allow it to heal someone who is already in the healing position. 

All cogent and sensible stuff.

I've had similar thoughts about improving the Tech's individual combat ability, up to a par with the A-class average, and reining in its healing capacity (and getting rid of that sticky beam nonsense); essentially making its primary function to fight with a secondary nod toward support, i.e., healing.  Whilst I'm not over-keen on Techs healing mechs that are already kneeling down, I haven't put my thoughts into words but you have so you get the cookie. 

[Dr_Freeze001]

I agree with grollourdo, healing repairing mechs is useless.

 

let's sum up what's wrong with the tech in its actual state : 

- OP symbiosis with the incinerator

- too easy to use

- cause deathballs even more deadly

These are 3 different problems and there are many ways to solve them.

 

An idea came up : make the torch efficiency decrease if you hold the mouse button.

 

It's simple and it could some many of the issues stated above, the "green beam" providing full efficiency for a few seconds.

-> it deals with incin' / tech combo as continuous healing will be less efficient

-> it adds some skill (timing) to the techie playstyle

-> it limit the deathball stuff as it will limit continuous healing

 

here below an example :

- heal 2x actual HPS for the first 0.5s

- heal 1x actual HPS for the next 1.5s

- heal 1/2x actual HPS thereafter

add a cooldown of 3s to get full healing capability back

 

After thinking and considering option, trying to write replies, this does seem to be the best. The main problem is that tech is too easy to use, and there are a few solutions to it, with each promoting different gamestyles. These are of course all related to the Helix's mechanics.

 

- Remove the sticky factor (promotes situational awareness, aggressive play )

- Add a delay before connecting, a "warmup" period for the ability (promotes timing and predicting situation, being defensive, pocket-teching)

- Decrease healing over time (promotes moving from target to target, healing everybody)

- Others I forget.

 

Out of all the above, MomOw's idea does seem to promote the best kind of teching.

 

If any one change should be made, that would be it. Use the same indicator used for showing reload time to show the effectiveness of the repair and it would be good.

 

 

Question tho, does the same apply to the deconstructor?

Edited by Dr_Freeze001, 26 March 2015 - 02:39 AM.

[Grollourdo]

I agree with grollourdo, healing repairing mechs is useless.

 

let's sum up what's wrong with the tech in its actual state : 

- OP symbiosis with the incinerator

- too easy to use

- cause deathballs even more deadly

These are 3 different problems and there are many ways to solve them.

 

An idea came up : make the torch efficiency decrease if you hold the mouse button.

 

It's simple and it could some many of the issues stated above, the "green beam" providing full efficiency for a few seconds.

-> it deals with incin' / tech combo as continuous healing will be less efficient

-> it adds some skill (timing) to the techie playstyle

-> it limit the deathball stuff as it will limit continuous healing

 

here below an example :

- heal 2x actual HPS for the first 0.5s

- heal 1x actual HPS for the next 1.5s

- heal 1/2x actual HPS thereafter

add a cooldown of 3s to get full healing capability back

 

Thanks man XD 

 

I realy think the tech is not op

 

 

as i said in SOOOO many posts but keep on getting ignored XD

 

EVERY MECH has advantages and dissadvantages XD

[Superkamikazee]

I think the Technician should be able to actually heal without using its ability, but maybe the Repair Torch shouldn't be shooting an auto-seeking heal beam, instead of that I personally would like to have an automatic weapon, that fires many bullets very fast and shoots little heal orbs, which seek the team members a little bit, like the Seeker. Of course it should keep the range it has now.

 

I would be happy with nearly everything, just the system of an auto-seeking heal beam should be removed imo.

 

 

In my opinion the tech is way too passive. It needs to be more offensive and require more effort than just pressing the rmb. I think the primary weapons are fine (maybe except for the redox). I would change the helix torch this way:

• Remove sticky beam.
• Make it shoot red pellets like the incinerator mama for damage
• Make it shoot green pellets to heal

As for ability you can make it:

• Provide AOE heals for nearby mechs for X seconds every Y second, with self heal.
• Or drop X repair orbs every Y seconds

Then adjust the amount of armor and movement speed accordingly.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Great ideas, which I feel are the best directions if Tech is to remain in the game, here's my spin on them.

 

Perhaps no beam heal, Tech shoots a health orb (orb bullets?), direct hits grant  entire value of healing that an orb is associated with. There is also splash damage, and detonation available for health orb shots. They do not stay on the ground, direct hit, or splash (splash orb particles fancy PhysX usage). Red beam can stay, maybe it deals less damage, but is also used towards the techs ability. Red beam health stealing is used towards filling a tank that when activated buffs a few shots of health orb bullets. Adjust heat  and mech armor accordingly. This gives tech a higher "SKILL CEILING" (I can use buzz words too).

Edited by Superkamikazee, 26 March 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[Plantblock]

I supose decreasing the angel at which the beam sticks to an target would also increase the ''skill ceiling'' of the tech at least a bit, couse at the moment you can heal someone who is like 90° from your current position.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

 

Great ideas, which I feel are the best directions if Tech is to remain in the game, here's my spin on them.

 

Perhaps no beam heal, Tech shoots a health orb (orb bullets?), direct hits grant  entire value of healing that an orb is associated with. There is also splash damage, and detonation available for health orb shots. They do not stay on the ground, direct hit, or splash. Red beam can stay, maybe it deals less damage, but is also used towards the techs ability. Red beam health stealing is used towards filling a tank that when activated buffs a few shots of health orb bullets. Adjust heat  and mech armor accordingly. This gives tech a higher "SKILL CEILING" (I can use buzz words too).

 

 

That's what I suggested and people shot down my suggestions... :|

[Superkamikazee]

That's what I suggested and people shot down my suggestions... :|

 

Not sure why they would. Direct hits reward accuracy, which is tough when a berserker is in combat zipping up, down, and around. Splash / detonation allows a lower skilled player a chance to fill the role with some effectiveness. Red beam use towards orb bullet buff adds some depth. Adjust the ability cool down timer accordingly to keep it under control. 

 

If you really want to balance it out, maybe the health orb bullets can health both enemy and ally. This would encourage direct hits over splash. Splash is a risk factor. Not sure how everyone would feel about something like that.

Edited by Superkamikazee, 26 March 2015 - 06:19 AM.

[Dr_Freeze001]

That's what I suggested and people shot down my suggestions... :|

 

(I'm wondering what the lore behind that technology could be.)

 

Also, how would it work with repairing items? The "shooting healing orbs" works on Axes because they can repair, but if you drop a repair orb near to an item it does not. 

 

Blocking a small hallway with people shooting at you and green-beaming to give your team some time to flank is a very useful tactic. As a tech you can bait people that way. Green-beaming off of a blockade is very much part of the tech meta, and removing this mechanic would completely break that.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Not sure why they would. Direct hits reward accuracy, which is tough when a berserker is in combat zipping up, down, and around. Splash / detonation allows a lower skilled player a chance to fill the role with some effectiveness. Red beam use towards orb bullet buff adds some depth. Adjust the ability cool down timer accordingly to keep it under control. 

Originally, I meant it for the Tech G2... But since the original tech was such a problem, I was thinking the mechanics I thought up for it would lessen the impact of the original tech.  They said it would be useless in comp play.  I dunno, maybe I made too many changes.  Here's the topic: https://community.pl...e-tech-changes/ Maybe if the tech was changed to a C class, like in my G2 Tech suggestion, it could work.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 26 March 2015 - 06:22 AM.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

I agree with grollourdo, healing repairing mechs is useless.

 

let's sum up what's wrong with the tech in its actual state : 

- OP symbiosis with the incinerator

- too easy to use

- cause deathballs even more deadly

These are 3 different problems and there are many ways to solve them.

 

An idea came up : make the torch efficiency decrease if you hold the mouse button.

 

It's simple and it could some many of the issues stated above, the "green beam" providing full efficiency for a few seconds.

-> it deals with incin' / tech combo as continuous healing will be less efficient

-> it adds some skill (timing) to the techie playstyle

-> it limit the deathball stuff as it will limit continuous healing

 

here below an example :

- heal 2x actual HPS for the first 0.5s

- heal 1x actual HPS for the next 1.5s

- heal 1/2x actual HPS thereafter

add a cooldown of 3s to get full healing capability back

 

 

I supose decreasing the angel at which the beam sticks to an target would also increase the ''skill ceiling'' of the tech at least a bit, couse at the moment you can heal someone who is like 90° from your current position.

 

How about version these two together with a small/medium armor buff? (With or without dropping red-beam all together.)

 

Having played the Tech with A's and B's bouncing allllllll over the place while being targeted by Snipers and Rocketeers it would be near impossible to get any worthwhile healing on them and stay alive without at least some form of "Auto Tracking". (Forms of auto-tracking have already been set as a precedent with the Seeker and Hellfire weapons.) And remember, if a Tech is not "hooked up" via orange/green beam they are not healing. Not to mention, the limited range of the Helix means that more often I am trying to jam the torch up someones 4th point of contact. (Envision "Pin The Tail on the Donkey" except with a real donkey, who is moving, in a minefield, filled with cactus, while you are inebriated...) So IMHO removing tracking all together would, quite possibly, make the Tech not worth playing. (Effectively "removing it from the game" which might suit some just fine.)

 

Again, I am still solidly in the "Tech is not OP" camp but if something *HAS* to be changed, then I'd at least like to steer that change a little.

Edited by oSPANNERo, 26 March 2015 - 06:28 AM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

(I'm wondering what the lore behind that technology could be.)

 

 

Take a look here:http://hawken.mirror..._40#entry521395

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 26 March 2015 - 06:24 AM.