208 replies to this topic

[Dr_Freeze001]

Take a look here:http://hawken.mirror..._40#entry521395

 

I was wondering more about the way it's deployed. When you drop a repair charge it's a small device that opens up, and out of that comes the vitrolium. However, how would you be able to shoot it?

 

Well, I guess they're not much larger than predzels, so it should be no problem. Also, if you can beam them from your Helix it should be possible to put them into a bullet-type container.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

I was wondering more about the way it's deployed. When you drop a repair charge it's a small device that opens up, and out of that comes the vitrolium. However, how would you be able to shoot it?

 

Well, I guess they're not much larger than predzels, so it should be no problem. Also, if you can beam them from your Helix it should be possible to put them into a bullet-type container.

Yep.  Also, it's Vitalium (or the yellow health orbs right?)  Hence why I thought up all that, it makes sense... Well, at least I think it does.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 26 March 2015 - 06:33 AM.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

Maybe "Grenade Launcher" style tool/weapon with similar behaivor except healing rather than damage? (Might be a bit easier on the developers since it would hopefully allow them to reuse some code.)

 

"The Cannister Launcher"? Would also make sense with the idea of moving over to a Class B or Class C chassis.

 

Perhaps a "Heavy Tech"?

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Maybe "Grenade Launcher" style tool/weapon with similar behaivor except healing rather than damage? (Might be a bit easier on the developers since it would hopefully allow them to reuse some code.)

 

"The Cannister Launcher"? Would also make sense with the idea of moving over to a Class B or Class C chassis.

 

Perhaps a "Heavy Tech"?

That's a good idea!  For the secondary mode, it could have use as an AoE, where it expands out as a weak deployable field that hurts enemies.  I dunno, I'm just spouting out ideas now.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

I was wondering more about the way it's deployed. When you drop a repair charge it's a small device that opens up, and out of that comes the vitrolium. However, how would you be able to shoot it?

 

Well, I guess they're not much larger than predzels, so it should be no problem. Also, if you can beam them from your Helix it should be possible to put them into a bullet-type container.

 

I think of a repair charge similar as a containment field device that holds the Vitallium. Just like the Shield or Barricade, there is actually something physically there generating the function.

 

If you think of a canister containment vessel that has Vitallium inside of it (like a test tube with a cork) and then you launch/throw it. Once that container breaks apart, there is nothing left to contain the Vitallium so it quickly dissipates. (Unlike the continuous containment field of the Repair Charge.)

So, in theory, only the mechs in the immediate area upon the canister/vessel/testtube breaking open would be able to take advantage of absorbing from the Vitallium cloud before it dispersed.

 

The canister would break open in two conditions: Impact (with ground or mech) or remote detonation (small onboard charge to break apart the container.)
 

Revisiting my earlier "grenade launcher like" idea, I think one aspect that would need to be different is "No Bounce" for the canisters since, technically, they are activated by impact.

[Dr_Freeze001]

I'm very much thinking these ideas are becoming more and more OP than the tech currently is. 

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

What honestly comes to mind is the "Fat Man" from the Fallout Series but with a glowing yellow/orange canister as ammo:

 

Edited by oSPANNERo, 26 March 2015 - 10:41 AM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

I'm very much thinking these ideas are becoming more and more OP than the tech currently is. 

Yeah...sorry 'bout that.  Anyway, the tech is not a bad mech in general.  There are just some situations that make the tech unbalanced.  Unfortunately, it seems those situations come up a lot. Aka Incin + Tech.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

I'm very much thinking these ideas are becoming more and more OP than the tech currently is. 

 

I agree you would have to do this *VERY* thoughtfully to prevent further OP but it seems to have the possibility of addressing a decent number of the complaint/request areas thus far:

 

- Remove the sticky factor (promotes situational awareness, aggressive play )

- Add a delay before connecting, a "warmup" period for the ability (promotes timing and predicting situation, being defensive, pocket-teching)

- Decrease healing over time (promotes moving from target to target, healing everybody)

- it deals with incin' / tech combo as continuous healing will be less efficient

- it adds some skill (timing) to the techie playstyle

- it limit the deathball stuff as it will limit continuous healing

- direct hits grant  entire value of healing that an orb is associated with

- There is also splash damage, and detonation available for health orb shots.

- They do not stay on the ground, direct hit, or splash (splash orb particles fancy PhysX usage)

- so a tech can't do any damage, but get something else as for it. (Tactics with the "Canister Launcher" would lead you to staying back from firefight)

- If you really want to balance it out, maybe the health orb bullets can health both enemy and ally.

Edited by oSPANNERo, 26 March 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

Yeah...sorry 'bout that.  Anyway, the tech is not a bad mech in general.  There are just some situations that make the tech unbalanced.  Unfortunately, it seems those situations come up a lot. Aka Incin + Tech.

 

Incin + Tech is *one* use case that can be addressed by a simple mod to the Incin reducing the absorption rates from the Tech.

 

So are we trying to empty the ocean when simply turning off a tap will do?

[Brawler_Yukon]

I think of a repair charge similar as a containment field device that holds the Vitallium. Just like the Shield or Barricade, there is actually something physically there generating the function.

 

If you think of a canister containment vessel that has Vitallium inside of it (like a test tube with a cork) and then you launch/throw it. Once that container breaks apart, there is nothing left to contain the Vitallium so it quickly dissipates. (Unlike the continuous containment field of the Repair Charge.)

So, in theory, only the mechs in the immediate area upon the canister/vessel/testtube breaking open would be able to take advantage of absorbing from the Vitallium cloud before it dispersed.

 

The canister would break open in two conditions: Impact (with ground or mech) or remote detonation (small onboard charge to break apart the container.)
 

Revisiting my earlier "grenade launcher like" idea, I think one aspect that would need to be different is "No Bounce" for the canisters since, technically, they are activated by impact.

So you want burst healing tech? Wouldn't that just make it a tiny version of the Grenadier? I'm not complaining, I'm played burst medic in other games and it's still fun and requires some modicum of skill, but at that point it's just a G2Gren in all but name. However, if worse comes to worst, I can live with burst medic, however; You'd have to revamp the ability because added heals to the canisters would be fine, but 1min+ cool-down is far too long.

Edited by Brawler_Yukon, 26 March 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[MomOw]

I still think that a decreasing efficiency of the torch will do the job while being simple to implement, with maybe a narrower sticky beam and something to compensate. Is there any way to change that thread to a poll after other ideas comes out ?

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

So you want burst healing tech? <SNIP>

 

<SNIP> I am still solidly in the "Tech is not OP" camp but if something *HAS* to be changed, then I'd at least like to steer that change a little.

 

I guess I am just looking for cool creative ways to keep the Technician a "Combat Medic" and not a "Combat Lifesaver" while remaining fun and worthwhile to play.

[Brawler_Yukon]

I still think that a decreasing efficiency of the torch will do the job while being simple to implement, with maybe a narrower sticky beam and something to compensate. Is there any way to change that thread to a poll after other ideas comes out ?

See, but the sticky helps Techs when they have ass teammates who refuse to stay in line of site, or jump around far too much for the tech to actually help them. 

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

See, but the sticky helps Techs when they have ass teammates who refuse to stay in line of site, or jump around far too much for the tech to actually help them. 

 

+1

 

Or even at least allow the Tech to help themselves. (Techs can't replenish armor/health without being "attached" to someone via orange/green beam.)

 

So if you debuffed the angle of the sticky beam you would at least need to buff the armor rating.

Edited by oSPANNERo, 26 March 2015 - 11:16 AM.

[QusaTalma]

Here's a crazy idea.

 

Take away the green beam effect.

In it's place add an effect that burst heals for all of the heat left until overheat.

This would then overheat your mech.

 

This would mean that techs that weren't healing all that much could give a big boost to one mechs hit points, at the expense of taking themselves out of the fight for a bit.

 

On the other hand, techs that are constantly healing wouldn't be able to use this ability all that effectively.

 

I think if we combined this with HPS degrading over time, it would force techs to think carefully about when they heal someone.

-Do I sporadically heal everyone for small amounts at a time, or do I save it and burst heal the mechs as they are about to die?

[Grollourdo]

Guys ... The technician is not op we dont need to Nerf or cripple him ...

The only thing that we need to stop concerning the technician is the incinerator - technician combo

I posted a few post about my ideas about it already early in this thread ... I'm going to repost it if I need to later on....

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

<SNIP>
add an effect that burst heals for all of the heat left until overheat.

This would then overheat your mech.

 

This would mean that techs that weren't healing all that much could give a big boost to one mechs hit points, at the expense of taking themselves out of the fight for a bit.

 

 

Almost a "phoenix effect"? (Reborn from the Fire/Heat?)

 

One way to maybe tweak it is that the amount of healing dealt by the effect is tied to the amount of heat capacity you have available.

 

Example:

 

Technician has used 0% heat capacity

Triggers Phoenix Effect

Generates 100% of healing capability *SPLIT EQUALLY* among the damaged mechs in splash radius (Think like how the EU stations work.)
Now Tech is at 100% heat capacity.

Trigger Phoenix Effect

Generates 0% of healing capability

Waits till he cools down to 50% heat capacity

Triggers the Phoenix Effect

Generates 50% of healing capability *SPLIT EQUALLY* among the damaged mechs in splash radius

Tech is now back at 100% heat capacity

Wash-Rinse-Repeat

And its an all or nothing use each time like a detonation/explosion.

 

Would have to muck a little with cool down times...

 

 

<SNIP>

Again, I am still solidly in the "Tech is not OP" camp but if something *HAS* to be changed, then I'd at least like to steer that change a little.

 

Edited by oSPANNERo, 27 March 2015 - 12:19 PM.

[davek1979]

I always have to laugh when I see Tech boys cry at the suggestion of making healing a skillshot. It's precious. :-) If you are only secure when you have cheap-ass autoaim, you should seriously consider uninstall. The less people are playing Tech the better the match, always, without fail. The game has enough healing mechanics, you are not needed.

[Nov8tr]

I always have to laugh when I see Tech boys cry at the suggestion of making healing a skillshot. It's precious. :-) If you are only secure when you have cheap-ass autoaim, you should seriously consider uninstall. The less people are playing Tech the better the match, always, without fail. The game has enough healing mechanics, you are not needed.

TOTALLY agree. The Tech does not need fixed, nerfed, upgraded, downgraded, changed or repaired. It needs to be REMOVED. It should never have been here in the first place. It was a bad idea no one wanted and they made it anyhow. We told them then we did not want it after it was released but they did not listen. There is nothing to consider. It does not make the game better. It takes away from it. It is not a tool, it is a hindrance. It is for lazy people. I will not play with a Tech in the game any longer. I will stand by my decision. It is a crutch and any attempt to justify it is lame. It has no place in this game or any game with the playstyle of Hawken. This is a arena style game. It is not Dr Kildare saves Bobby. Time to do the right thing and euthanize it. That would be the humane thing to do.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

 

I always have to laugh when I see Tech boys cry at the suggestion of making healing a skillshot. It's precious. :-) If you are only secure when you have cheap-ass autoaim, you should seriously consider uninstall. The less people are playing Tech the better the match, always, without fail. The game has enough healing mechanics, you are not needed.

 

I feel the same way when people complain about the weapon raise delay after boosting. Or pretty much any "Why isn't Hawken just like UT" style complaint.

 

Then again, if I am going to comment on that thread and be a dissenting opinion, I at least attempt to be constructive instead of a sad troll...

Edited by oSPANNERo, 27 March 2015 - 01:15 PM.

[Brawler_Yukon]

I love how instead of actually wanting to fix stuff they literally just want it to be Fred vs Fred match so that nobody has a play style different than them. First you remove the Tech, because "Waaaah, da tech iz healin ppl, n ahm naut gud enuf 2 get over it n fight smarter." Then goes the Incinerator because "Waaah, everybody can fight longer n I can't deel wif eet" then goes the Rocketeer and Bruiser, because "waaah, it auto locks and dodge is too hard 5 me" then goes the Sharpshooter and Reaper because, "waaaah, they have accurate weapons that do more burst damage than mine do." What a bunch of whiny babies, Learn to play the game instead of just complaining about how you're not good enough to deal with the Tech. The Tech doesn't need to be removed, you need to be better at the game you pansies. 

Edited by Brawler_Yukon, 27 March 2015 - 01:25 PM.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

TOTALLY agree. The Tech does not need fixed, nerfed, upgraded, downgraded, changed or repaired. It needs to be REMOVED. It should never have been here in the first place. It was a bad idea no one wanted and they made it anyhow. We told them then we did not want it after it was released but they did not listen. There is nothing to consider. It does not make the game better. It takes away from it. It is not a tool, it is a hindrance. It is for lazy people. I will not play with a Tech in the game any longer. I will stand by my decision. It is a crutch and any attempt to justify it is lame. It has no place in this game or any game with the playstyle of Hawken. This is a arena style game. It is not Dr Kildare saves Bobby. Time to do the right thing and euthanize it. That would be the humane thing to do.

 

"We" told them? I don't remember being asked my opinion or weighing in back in the good old days... did I miss an invitation? ::check junk mail folder::

And its certainly your discretion to not play in a game *WITH* a Tech and not have to play in a game *AS* a Tech. You get the option to opt-out which is a cool part of the game. Wouldn't it be cool if I got the choice to opt-in to playing as a Tech without taking away your options and discretion? Oh *PHEW*, I can!

 

Good thing we both can have our opinions an play styles in the same game universe. (Its kinda like smoking cigarettes, I don't do it myself and I tend to avoid restaurants and bars where people do but I don't think we should destroy cigarettes.)

 

In the end, I think the thread you were looking to participate in is here since I believe you and @FakeName have similar opinions: Officially OP Mechs are ...

 

As this thread is titled "Fixing the Tech" perhaps a more creative, thoughtful, and quantitative answer than "euthanize it" is warranted? Perhaps? Maybe?

Edited by oSPANNERo, 27 March 2015 - 01:34 PM.

[davek1979]

I WAS BEING CONSTRUCTIVE with 0% trolling!
Removing the damn thing is the only logically sound and constructive solution.

[davek1979]

And I still like how no one welcomed the skillshot suggestion! :-)
Peepz maining Tech will defend its cheap, lazy mechanics no matter what. Saying there's more to it than just holding the button down while occassionaly changing the recipient of your magic beam is the little brotherly tap on the shoulder people give each other to justify any and every logical nonsense that somehow binds them together.
You are adorable folk, keep it up.

[Dr_Freeze001]

Well, looks like this "we" is 5% of people polled. Slight nerf it is, get MomOw's solution in there.

 

 

 

 

The Technician has always been a controversial mech, and that shows here.

 

 

It’s clear that a lot of people aren’t a fan. 26 people (67%) are in favor of some sort of nerf or for it to be removed completely, while only 13 (33%) want it to stay as it is or be buffed. This subject had one of the most interesting distributions of votes by MMR.

 

[M4st0d0n]

Well, looks like this "we" is 5% of people polled. Slight nerf it is, get MomOw's solution in there.

 

I'll just put this here cause I think it'll be a trend soon.

 

N=42.

 

What was the question again?

[Dr_Freeze001]

 

What was the question again?

 

No question, just a reaction.

 

Well, guess the question still hasn't changed, and that would be "is tech OP/how can we fix it". And the answer would be a slight nerf using MomOw's solution.

[M4st0d0n]

It's a Hitchicker's Guide to The Galaxy Reference.

 

You cant draw conclusions from a pool of 42 players. It's well done and it's encouraging to see that kind of effort, but it will never be enough to back up any arguments in regard of balance.

[Dr_Freeze001]

It's a Hitchicker's Guide to The Galaxy Reference.

 

You cant draw conclusions from a pool of 42 players. It's well done and it's encouraging to see that kind of effort, but it will never be enough to back up any arguments in regard of balance.

 

Ah, guess it's been too long since I saw it. 

 

Well, it's as much a valid answer as "It's just OP, remove it" is a valid argument. At least it involves more than one isolated opinion.

 

 

We've spend 3 pages discussing the issue and I think we'e gotten to a good conclusion. Of course, if anyone else wants to give ideas, please feel free to. But the main question has been answered, and the answer definitely isn't "remove the tech".

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

Well, looks like this "we" is 5% of people polled. Slight nerf it is, get MomOw's solution in there.

 

 

HOLLY FUZZY BUNNY! That is a great thread and really puts some good initial numbers and math to these questions. *THANK YOU* for linking to it. I particularly like the tie between MMR and the selected response.

 

It's a Hitchicker's Guide to The Galaxy Reference.

 

You cant draw conclusions from a pool of 42 players. It's well done and it's encouraging to see that kind of effort, but it will never be enough to back up any arguments in regard of balance.

 

I concur that the sample size is low and methodology needs a buff to draw a true scientific conclusion (the OP even mentioned several places where respondents did something that he wasn't expecting). HOWEVER, its a fantastic nudge to show that this type of analysis can be done if desired.

[Plantblock]

Why not just make some servers where the tech is diseabled, so that the people that dont want to play with a tech in the match dont have to?

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

And I still like how no one welcomed the skillshot suggestion! :-)
Peepz maining Tech will defend its cheap, lazy mechanics no matter what. Saying there's more to it than just holding the button down while occassionaly changing the recipient of your magic beam is the little brotherly tap on the shoulder people give each other to justify any and every logical nonsense that somehow binds them together.
You are adorable folk, keep it up.

 

Maybe an additional area for the next version of the study that @Dr_Freeze001 linked would also include how much time voters on the Technician question have actually played *as* a Technician and/or *against* a Technician.

 

My two areas of interest would be:

 

1) Does more play time against Technicians correlate with more moderate nerfing suggestions. (Suggesting that practice against the Tech allows the development of strategies to more "easily" mitigate the impact of the Tech on the enemy team.)

 

2) Does more play time as a Technician correlate with more moderate nerfing suggestions. (Suggesting that playing as a Technician makes you more aware of its shortcomings (armor) and its capabilities (the heal beam not being magically sticky in a 360* sphere).)

 

My bet, based on the limited initial data presented in the thread along with my own personal (but limited) experience is that the more time playing as and against the Tech would center respondents more on the "as is" or "nerf slightly" area with better overall correlation than MMR.

But this is just a hypothesis suggested for further research, not even a theorem or law!

[M4st0d0n]

Ah, guess it's been too long since I saw it. 

 

Well, it's as much a valid answer as "It's just OP, remove it" is a valid argument. At least it involves more than one isolated opinion.

 

 

We've spend 3 pages discussing the issue and I think we'e gotten to a good conclusion. Of course, if anyone else wants to give ideas, please feel free to. But the main question has been answered, and the answer definitely isn't "remove the tech".

 

There's far more than 54% of 42 people that started to hate the game with the tech introduction and they are not here to talk about it. But of course, devs could hardly remove it now. People have spent currency on it. 5% of 42 people failed to realize that.

[reznog]

Yes, things do need to change, but you guys cant be serious about removing the tech...

Since the addition of the Tech sitting down to repair isn't part of the meta anymore and deathballs are greatly encouraged. Siege matches are susceptible to extreme snowballing and TDM tend to turn into stalemates. Currently defensive play is favored so much that a decisive push  turns into destruction of the attacking team most of the time.

 

The real issue, in my opinion, isn't the tech, but its ability, along with the abundance of deployable Repair charges allowing players quick repairs while staying close to the fight.

How about fixing both at once? Rework the Techs ability to drop a single Repair Charge on activation and scrap them as an item.

This way the tech can still put out burst healing, but stops it from completely healing a mechs in the middle of a fight.

 

And to anyone running Repair Charge + Repair Kit on their A-class: Don't even dare to complain, you know its OP.

 

Edit:

 

- change it's ability to pop an healing orb.

 

Missed this on my first readtrough, gg there.

Edited by reznog, 28 March 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[davek1979]

There's far more than 54% of 42 people that started to hate the game with the tech introduction and they are not here to talk about it. But of course, devs could hardly remove it now. People have spent currency on it. 5% of 42 people failed to realize that.

It's not only what you spent money on, but also in what context.

ADH had absolutely no qualms messing with the game with absolutely zero care for what people spent money on.

A ton of people who bought into Vanguard Initiative are no longer here because the game went south so dramatically.

 

So no worries, the new devs can remove the abomination. The 5% realized that long before you did.

[FlamingBeaker]

Someone's probably suggested this already, but what if we remove the Tech's ability to heal itself using either of its beams?

 

Deconstructor could still strip off enemy armor, but make it evaporate instead of healing the Tech.

 

Tech would have to heal itself like the rest of us plebs (hit C or nom nom health orb).

 

Incin + tech would still be OP....until you scratch the Tech's paint job.

 

You could try to double up on Techs, but then your team is seriously down on heavy hitters.

 

Tech would crumple faster going 1 vs 1 (it's a support mech, after all).

 

 

 

edited "it's" to "its" (Python reference needed)

Edited by FlamingBeaker, 28 March 2015 - 06:33 AM.

[Brawler_Yukon]

No question, just a reaction.

 

Well, guess the question still hasn't changed, and that would be "is tech OP/how can we fix it". And the answer would be a slight nerf using MomOw's solution.

MomOw's solution was to turn the Tech into a stationary Health pylon that did nothing for it's team and barely affected anything, if that's only a slight nerf I don't want to know what a heavy one is.

[Mergaz]

They should change the support not to be a cure, but to add damage to the Allies and reduce damage from enemies through secondary weapon modes.

Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[Brawler_Yukon]

They should change the support not to be a cure, but to add damage to the Allies and reduce damage from enemies.

That is an interesting idea. it would alleviate the death balls and still provide a use for tech, but you'd need to re work the ability, unless the ability would be the normal orange beam and thus do the minor "okay" healing it does now alongside the DR and power boost.