152 replies to this topic

[CrimsonKaim]

(TL;DR version at the bottom)

 

Incinerator, Assault (any kind of it: G2, Fred, Assault and Zerker just as Vulcan Grenadeer, etc.) and ofcourse Flak cannons.

 

 

Why? Because the skill required in these mechs is incredibly low (excluding flak weapons). 

 

Example (repeated several times): 

 

In a 2000-2400 MMR match I used Infiltrator on several maps. Average KDR: 1.2 Average points: 200 (TDM)

I play this mech since years and have fully equiped it with internals and items. 

 

Now do the same with a Fred (weak version of Assault):

 

In a 2000-2400 MMR match I used a Fred on several maps. Average KDR: 1.9 Average points: 350 (TDM)

I never played this mech, not even when I started playing Hawken (bought Infiltrator right away with MC). I didn't use any internals. I only used one scanner, shield and a HE charge.

Additional point: I never overheated and I didn't even use my ability ONCE.

 

 

You can see a very clear difference here. There are several factors joining together but I first want to go to the Inci ...

 

 

In a 2000-2400 MMR match I used the Incinerator on Uptown and Prosk. Average KDR: 1.7 Average points: 300 (TDM)

I dont' play this mech very often and I miss like half of my shots, maybe even more.

However, I can push a whole damn team with a technician in my back away from my team due to this tremendous amount of damage it can deal forever.

This mech is absolutely gamebreaking and needs either to be removed temporarily or to be changed/nerfed.

 

 

Now, why does it come to this enorm imbalance?

 

 

One factor (for Assaults) is definately the low heat generation over time. AS mentioned above, I never overheated even though I fire my weapons whenever I saw an enemy, wehater I deal significant damage or not.

Cover was never an option. I didn't use my whole heat capacity yet and was always dominant in teamfights. Even burst mechs were no problem for my old scrappy fred.

In the case of beeing close to overheating, just wait for 3 seconds and everything is fine.

Additionally, instant damage (not beeing forced to aim in front of a moving target, instead aim directly one it) makes the whole shootign really easy and removes an extra amount of skill required.

 

The same applies for the Incinerator and every other sustained mech. While some mechs differ in secondaries and abilities as well as class and stats, the weapons are the same.

 

 

 

These matches are facts and can't be argued with. Maybe the Infiltrator or the Heta-Scout are not as good in teamfights as Assaults but guess why.

 

 

 

Now to the Flak weapons. I played the Flak scout and find it very easy to hit agile A-classes. 

Why?

Because instant damage. 

Before I move on, why is it harder to hit with slug/sabot rifles? They have instant damage as well!

Because a shotgun has many bullets and a large shooting radius comapred to the semi fire slug/sabot.

The thing is, you don't have to aim as accurate as with the Sabot to deal damage. While you don't deal the full amount of damage with a Flak if you don't aim properly, the slug/sabot will deal etiher 0% or 100% damage.

 

Now close combat shotguns are essential in shooters and I don't want them to be removed. But, as mentioned in my To-Do list, add actual bullets like the Raider's Corsair-KLA shotgun mode. 

Invent new bullet types, how about a shotgun EOC?

 

Back to the topic, Flak has got an excelent burst damage. I don't mind this BUT! It also got some serious DPS damage. That's what makes it so damn, well in my view, OP. It is OP, I say and I am not using this. Why? Because Infiltrator hasn't got it. It used to have it, but it was OP according to the alpha testers. Maybe it's not the weapon on the mech but the weapon itself?

 

 

So this is my opinion and I didn't change it since I started playing Hawken and saw my first enemy Flak Scout.

 

 

EDIT: 

 

Some suggestions:

 

- Remove 3-second-insta-cooldown for heat.

- Increase weaponspread of most sustained weapons or reimplement recoil (increased weapon spread after a large amount of shots fired/take a break)

- Increase damage of the Flak cannon slightly while reducing its rate of fire drastically or repalce every Flak cannon ingame with T32 Bolt (Especially for Scout)

- Give Incinerator a clip which needs to be reloaded at some point. Prevents from shooting forever. Plus give him heat cooldown like every other mech (without 3 second insta cooldown)

 

 

TL;DR version: Sustained mechs and Flak OP, plz change/nerf

 

Have a nice day! :]

Edited by FakeName, 24 March 2015 - 11:00 PM.

[crockrocket]

I honestly don't think any mech is inherently op.

inb4 high vs low tiers start arguing

Edit: okay I lied, I do think incin is op. That is all.

Edited by crockrocket, 24 March 2015 - 09:50 AM.

[Zdragow]

I honestly don't think any mech is inherently op.

inb4 high vs low tiers start arguing

 inb4 pilot skill variations

[CrimsonKaim]

 inb4 pilot skill variations

 

Ye, was defeated by a 1900 Assault in my 2200 Infiltrator. Skill variotions in mechs I see

[crockrocket]

Ye, was defeated by a 1900 Assault in my 2200 Infiltrator. Skill variotions in mechs I see

Implying it's unheard of for a 1900 MMR pilot to defeat a 2200 MMR pilot? Seriously?

[CrimsonKaim]

Implying it's unheard of for a 1900 MMR pilot to defeat a 2200 MMR pilot? Seriously?

It is not a wonder, but this happens several times. Wit hseveral palyers on several maps, in the same mechs.

[TheVulong]

Not gonna go too much into details and just gonna say that from my personal experience the most OP mechs are Incinerator with Papa(highest DPS in the game + huge splash from the big secondary) and Grenadier with Vulcan(that amount of HP with that amount of DPS that comes from the new ability is just too good in comparison to Vulcan Vanguard or Vulcan Brawler).

[Elite_is_salty]

I was blessed by the chance of playing against thirdeye playing vulcan grend in a TPG game. It's too damn sad.

 

Hawken would be a glorious game without sustained weapons.

[CrimsonKaim]

I was blessed by the chance of playing against thirdeye playing vulcan grend in a TPG game. It's too damn sad.

 

Hawken would be a glorious game without sustained weapons.

 

I need a star fuction. Gives 100 likes at once.

[Merl61]

The idea of sustained vs burst is one that deserves to be discussed. At the moment, sustained is good, but not broken. It may be too good, but it is not game breaking. Mechs like heat infil are still viable at high tier play. Rev gren is another example of a very viable burst mech. The idea that piloting a sustained mech takes no skill whatsoever is totally misguided. You do not suddenly become the best player in the game when you hop in an assault. If you are getting much lower scores in an infil vs the CRT, maybe you're just bad at infil. Just my two cents. Also, fake. I really want to 1v1 you. Any mech you want. I'll be back to my setup on Friday. Hope to meet you then. GGs.

Merl

[peacecraftSLD]

The mechs are not OP, maybe Incin but you can deal with it.

 

Learn the match up and fight the mechs on your own terms. The mechs haven't changed for some time now. We all know or have an idea what each mech can do so you should already have an idea how to fight them. This doesn't account for the pilot skill, just what the mech can do.

[Interrobang87]

I have no idea where this sustain is op thing came from. Imo is rediculous. In order for sustain to be effective it requires continuous line of sight.

I.e. if you're being beaten by sustain, use the dam cover, your positioning is bad. Sustain had been underpowered since forever cause hawken is a defensive game.

Viva LA sustain!

[Nept]

These matches are facts and can't be argued with.

Edited by Nept, 24 March 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[Vdragon]

Not gonna go too much into details and just gonna say that from my personal experience the most OP mechs are Incinerator with Papa(highest DPS in the game + huge splash from the big secondary) and Grenadier with Vulcan(that amount of HP with that amount of DPS that comes from the new ability is just too good in comparison to Vulcan Vanguard or Vulcan Brawler).

This, no other mechs are OP.

[StubbornPuppet]

There are no OP mechs, just OP players.

[CrimsonKaim]

 

 

Well, wit hthis I mean you can't change the stats of the matches. These are data/statistics, which can't be argued

[PoopSlinger]

You forgot G2Raider on your list of OP mechs. 

[Amidatelion]

Goddammit, Nept beat me to it. Except I was going to use "OP" but that was before I got to the above-quoted line.

 

Well, wit hthis I mean you can't change the stats of the matches. These are data/statistics, which can't be argued

 

False. These are not facts. There is nothing to back them up. These are stories.

 

This is sorta where we need AJK, because the whole post is rife with errors, the first and foremost (even before your cocksure arguing that it "can't be argued with") being personal experience, even over 20 games, even over 100 games, does not constitute reliable data.

 

Ever.

 

Period.

 

Come back with a complete, interpretable data set divorced from your subjective viewpoint.

 

The second major error is lumping all those mechs into "assault" (I'll do you a favour and not assume that you are actually equating the Assault to a Gren, let alone a G2) as their class, weapon combos and abilities result in massive differences in the ways those identical sustain and burst weapons perform and therefore how those mechs perform.

 

The third is you functionally contradict your entire goddamn argument against sustain mechs by presenting a case for a burst weapon. In case you haven't noticed, you are arguing two separate things - mechs and weapons - and your argument is therefore... somewhat incoherent. Better to say that sutained weapons are in need of a nerf, because holy fuzzy bunny if you're arguing the Grenadier needs a nerf I don't really know what to say.

 

I'm trying to be as generous as possible here because the sustain vs burst discussion should happen. It just shouldn't happen anywhere near these anecdotes. Which is what they are. Being subjective experiences. And not data.

Edited by Amidatelion, 24 March 2015 - 12:16 PM.

[OmegaNull]

Goddammit, Nept beat me to it. Except I was going to use "OP" but that was before I got to the above-quoted line.

 

This is sorta where we need AJK, because the whole post is rife with errors, the first and foremost (even before your cocksure arguing that it "can't be argued with") being personal experience, even over 20 games, even over 100 games, does not constitute reliable data.

 

Ever.

 

Period.

 

Come back with an appraisable data set divorced from your subjective viewpoint.

 

The second major error is lumping all those mechs into "assault" (I'll do you a favour and not assume that you are actually equating the Assault to a Gren, let alone a G2) as their class, weapon combos and abilities result in massive differences in the ways those identical sustain and burst weapons perform.

 

The third is you functionally contradict your entire goddamn argument against sustain mechs by presenting a case for a burst weapon. In case you haven't noticed, you are arguing two separate things - mechs and weapons - and your argument is therefore... somewhat incoherent. Better to say that sutained weapons are in need of a nerf, because holy fuzzy bunny if you're arguing the Grenadier needs a nerf I don't really know what to say.

 

I'm trying to be as generous as possible here because the sustain vs burst discussion should happen. It just shouldn't happen anywhere near these anecdotes. Which is what they are. Being subjective experiences. And not data.

Personally, I feel balance as far as weapons go are pretty good right now. Most mechs are balanced as well with (personally) the exception of Incinerator and Tech.

[Nightfirebolt]

I still maintain that all of the mechs are extremely well balanced, and that most complaints of this sort boil down to nitpicking.

 

If this game wasn't well balanced, we would see top tier matches comprising of mostly the same types of mechs, but we don't. Instead we see a healthy mix of sharpshooters, assaults, infiltrators, zerkers, scouts, incinerators, reapers, predators, vanguards, brawlers, and techs.

 

Why do you think that is? It's not because any one mech has a distinct advantage.

 

Think about it.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 24 March 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[TheFrostnessMonster]

Most mechs aren't OP (Tech and Incinerator are slight exceptions), though it may seem that way to some players at certain times due to having a bad team that abandons you at the first sign of trouble, or the other player using an 'OP mech' has a good team that supports each other.  It could be a mix of both.  I had one game where I went 25-3 with trusty Fred; my team had good coordination and communication, while the other was all running more or less solo, and they were easily picked off.  I've also had times where I have been obliterated while playing as my loyal Fred.  And not because of OP mechs, but because the other team had something called communication, and they stuck together.  The balance is fine as it is now, with the exception of Tech and Incinerator.

[Sylhiri]

If this game wasn't well balanced, we would see top tier matches comprising of mostly the same types of mechs, but we don't. Instead we see a healthy mix of sharpshooters, assaults, infiltrators, zerkers, scouts, incinerators, reapers, predators, vanguards, brawlers, and techs.

 

I think you missed some mechs.

[Gunmoku]

TL;DR version: Sustained mechs and Flak OP, plz change/nerf

 

Have a nice day! :]

 

 

 

I thought we were better than this, guys.  Sustained and burst damage are going to be par for the course, it's two different styles of play.  There's always something that will seem OP, but really is just at the fringes of the meta-game and seems like it doesn't belong.  A good sense of balance, in my opinion, is one where something SEEMS overpowered but really is not. 

 

The only real overpowered mechs so far are the Technician and Rocketeer, for two different reasons.  The Technician because it does heals and damage both too well, it needs to do one or the other.  The Rocketeer, while its damage is reasonable, requires little skill from the player to use effectively.  It's a lazy mech and the missile launchers should have their tracking nerfed significantly to allow for higher skill ceilings.

[Nightfirebolt]

I think you missed some mechs.

 

Yeah, probably. I just listed those ones because those are the mechs I see used most often off the top of my head - and that's 11 out of the 18 mechs on the roster. If the number is even higher, then the balance is even healthier than I thought. 

[Merl61]

 
I thought we were better than this, guys.  Sustained and burst damage are going to be par for the course, it's two different styles of play.  There's always something that will seem OP, but really is just at the fringes of the meta-game and seems like it doesn't belong.  A good sense of balance, in my opinion, is one where something SEEMS overpowered but really is not. 
 
The only real overpowered mechs so far are the Technician and Rocketeer, for two different reasons.  The Technician because it does heals and damage both too well, it needs to do one or the other.  The Rocketeer, while its damage is reasonable, requires little skill from the player to use effectively.  It's a lazy mech and the missile launchers should have their tracking nerfed significantly to allow for higher skill ceilings.

What. The. Actual. Fuzz. /facepalm I am really tired. But tl;Dr you are so misguided. The rocketeer is garbage in comp play, as Hellfires are easy to avoid and the maximum dps is low. Tech has terrible DPs and a really low health pool. Trying to justify that the tech is in any way shape or form a good offensive mech is wrong. I regularly take down aimbotting techs in the open with just about every mech. It's just not good.

[FRX23]

The sustained weaps once they had an up, were fine IMHO.

 

Beside the TTK was reduced and i think it's the problem, you have less time under sustained fire to be destroyed.

 

And the less armor, the more chance you have to waste heat/dps on your frag with shotgun/burst weaps.

 

Also a mech game without sustained weaps is not a mech game i'ts another COD/Quake clone.

[Hyginos]

Hawken would be a BORING game without sustained weapons.

 

FTFY.

 

With that said, sustain is a bit strong. That may, however, be solely due to the accessibility of the damage. SMC certainly need tweaking.

 

 

Ye, was defeated by a 1900 Assault in my 2200 Infiltrator. Skill variotions in mechs I see

 

And I solo killed IareDave in a zerk on zerk once. the AC+ARK build must be OP.

 

Anecdote does not make a correlation, especially in a game where a single lucky TOW can win a fight.

[peacecraftSLD]

 

... especially in a game where a single lucky TOW can win a fight.

This is true.

[apollo96]

I feel strongly that even if the flack seems op and other mechs, is simply just User error, meaning not everyone will be able to master a certain mech. This leads me to my conclusion; every mech has unique weapons and abilities so set them apart from other mechs, (obviously) but is that very sense that makes Hawken unique. When going against a scout, don�t you take extra precaution and make sure you enough fuel and health to take the scout down? Same goes if you�re going against a Heavy class mech. Pilots are the ones with so much skill, that it makes it seem like mechs are OP.

[RedVan]

Infil has GL which is the most lolOP of all secondaries... As well as an AR, which is sustained and has long range. Scout is pretty pathetic next to infil

[Duralumi]

Scout is pretty pathetic next to infil

 

Every passing day I wish more and more that the Scout had the Breacher instead of the Mini Flak.

 

come to think of it i just want the Breacher on something that is not the predator because it is a sexy sexy gun

Edited by Duralumi, 24 March 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Every passing day I wish more and more that the Scout had the Breacher instead of the Mini Flak.

 

come to think of it i just want the Breacher on something that is not the predator because it is a sexy sexy gun

I'd say the Breacher or the Re-Flak would fit the Scout well.

[Superkamikazee]

Thread jack, I just want the Bruisers ability to be more user friendly. I need more time damn it.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

I know a little about Flak.

 

In a Brawler, it's hella powerful, but you can run away.  In a Scout, you can put your secondary where I have to step in it, or you can just use Heat.  Or Grenadier.  I can't come close to a good Gren pilot, though I can kill an Incin by damage from far enough away, then get close.

 

I know my weapon inside out.. ReFlak, too, when I use it.  To beat me 1v1, you have to disrupt my timing.  Merl's one who is very (very) good at doing this to me.  If you let me dictate the timing, you're dead, period.

 

The game is balanced, and the weapons balanced, as Amid said, by a large datapool.  Multiple-regression analysis was (probably) done, and the DPS coefficients to balance the number of kills by weapon type (and mech type) was done.  This was a while ago, and done on the entire population - which includes a heck of a lot more lower-MMR players than higher-MMR players.  Those lower-MMR players tend to spam the firebutton/hold it down during a fight, and miss alot.  Higher-level players who know their mech and weapon don't miss a lot.   SMC needs tweakage because the pool of people who can use it has gotten better over time, since that last analysis.

Incin is broken.  Gren is too good when people who really learn the weapons it carries use it, and the lower-MMR players avoid it, so I'm for a bit of a nerf (but I'd love to analyze the data).

 

The flak is not OP.  It's the pilot. 

[Hyginos]

Infil has GL which is the most lolOP of all secondaries... As well as an AR, which is sustained and has long range. Scout is pretty pathetic next to infil

 

Remembering that

-TOW is much easier to use than GL

-Scout has a much higher walk speed (the infil walks the same as a pred, and only half an ms less than the raider)

-Infil has about 30% smaller radar radius than the scout

-flak cannon hurts in close corner play

 

I would say the comparison is perhaps a bit more complex than you give it credit for.

Edited by Hyginos, 24 March 2015 - 06:42 PM.

[crockrocket]

 

-Infil has about 30% smaller radar radius than the infil

 

INFIL HAS NO RADAR?!

[Hyginos]

INFIL HAS NO RADAR?!

 

Derp. I'm bad at keyboard. (edited)

Edited by Hyginos, 24 March 2015 - 06:42 PM.

[Xacius]

I honestly don't think any mech is inherently op.

inb4 high vs low tiers start arguing

 

The argument was over the second he pressed the "Post New Topic" button.  

[RedVan]

Remembering that
-TOW is much easier to use than GL
-Scout has a much higher walk speed (the infil walks the same as a pred, and only half an ms less than the raider)
-Infil has about 30% smaller radar radius than the scout
-flak cannon hurts in close corner play

I would say the comparison is perhaps a bit more complex than you give it credit for.

GL isn't much harder than TOW... Really, the only downside the GL has compared to TOW is range... But at those ranges, TOW isn't that great either...

Walk speed is irrelevant. Scout walk speed is not saving it from anything lol

Flak hurts, but all one needs to do is cause a miss and you've immediately decreased their DPS immensely.

Edited by RedVan, 24 March 2015 - 07:04 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

 

Back to the topic, Flak has got an excelent burst damage. I don't mind this BUT! It also got some serious DPS damage. That's what makes it so damn, well in my view, OP.  It is OP, I say and I am not using this. Why? Because Infiltrator hasn't got it. It used to have it, but it was OP according to the alpha testers. Maybe it's not the weapon on the mech but the weapon itself?

 

 

So this is my opinion and I didn't change it since I started playing Hawken and saw my first enemy Flak Scout.

 

 

TL;DR version: Sustained mechs and Flak OP, plz change/nerf

 

Why are you making comments on Flak supposedly being extremely overpowered when you just openly admitted that you've ignored the huge nerfs it's had and don't even use the weapon in the first place?

Edited by JeffMagnum, 24 March 2015 - 07:14 PM.