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#121
BaronSaturday

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I'm saying that there should be feedback from more than just the best players. Yes, it would be best to get balance stuff from people who know how to play the game. But more than top tier players play this and there are balance issues with different tiers. A good median should be reached. If this balance change effects a sizable portion of the playerbase, sure, but in a game where mechs have various uses, having one that's OP or UP only in specific spots in high tier games needs discussion from more than just the top tiers.


The problem with finding the median between high tier balance and low tier balance is that high tier players are going to find the things to exploit. We'll have a situation where a very small number of mechs will be viable and competition will disapear. We already have the orb lord thing and that's with the game being balanced at the top end. Hellfires are garbage because they balanced for the middle tier. Those are both problems. One was exploited by the high end, while the other wasmade boring by the low end. Balance the game at the top.

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#122
nilesy

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All you do is complain Fakename... honestly, you are only 2200 mmr, maybe thats why everything seems OP to you because 2200 mmr is not that great



#123
Hyginos

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All you do is complain Fakename... honestly, you are only 2200 mmr, maybe thats why everything seems OP to you because 2200 mmr is not that great

 

Can we please not judge the validity of people's opinions based on their heroku profile? Ad hominem fallacies are not productive.

</channelingAJK>

 

EDIT: you appear to have come to the forums solely to tell off FakeName.


Edited by Hyginos, 17 April 2015 - 08:04 AM.

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#124
Arkhaun

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Some suggestions:

 

- Remove 3-second-insta-cooldown for heat.

- Increase weaponspread of most sustained weapons or reimplement recoil (increased weapon spread after a large amount of shots fired/take a break)

- Increase damage of the Flak cannon slightly while reducing its rate of fire drastically or repalce every Flak cannon ingame with T32 Bolt (Especially for Scout)

- Give Incinerator a clip which needs to be reloaded at some point. Prevents from shooting forever. Plus give him heat cooldown like every other mech (without 3 second insta cooldown)

 

 

TL;DR version: Sustained mechs and Flak OP, plz change/nerf

 

Have a nice day! :]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

how about just making the heat rate build faster on sustained weapon fire so if ur goin full dakka you pay for it more 

that and the mama needs a retool bad

it shouldnt give your heat to them but instead just give them heat without you losing it


Edited by Arkhaun, 17 April 2015 - 08:36 AM.

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#125
Panzermanathod

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Pman,

I don't know that this has really come across: if you're posting on this forum to offer your opinion, the stats say youre better Skilled than 95% of the population.

Should we disallow your opinion alongside the others here?

 

Why are we talking about disallowing opinions?

 

The problem with finding the median between high tier balance and low tier balance is that high tier players are going to find the things to exploit. We'll have a situation where a very small number of mechs will be viable and competition will disapear. We already have the orb lord thing and that's with the game being balanced at the top end. Hellfires are garbage because they balanced for the middle tier. Those are both problems. One was exploited by the high end, while the other wasmade boring by the low end. Balance the game at the top.

 

But if people are going to find exploits... they're going to find exploits no matter what, I think.

 

Also I thought Hellfires were generally useless at high tier.


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#126
nilesy

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Can we please not judge the validity of people's opinions based on their heroku profile? Ad hominem fallacies are not productive.

</channelingAJK>

 

EDIT: you appear to have come to the forums solely to tell off FakeName.

 

So I am not allowed to browse the forums for news on updates? I specifically replied to him because all he ever posts are invalid complaints <OP mechs> <OP sustained damage> My mmr is the same as his but I choose to play the game instead of running to the forums whenever I get beaten...

 

EDIT: you appear to have judged the validity of my opinion based solely on an assumed motive


Edited by nilesy, 17 April 2015 - 09:34 AM.


#127
Call_Me_Ishmael

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@pman, re why

Probably because I'm being an irritated fuzzy bunny today, and read more into your reply than was there.

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You should call me Luna.


#128
Sp3ctrr

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OP says Fred is Over-Powered.

 

I like how diplomatic you are.


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#129
Grizzled

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So I am not allowed to browse the forums for news on updates? I specifically replied to him because all he ever posts are invalid complaints <OP mechs> <OP sustained damage> My mmr is the same as his but I choose to play the game instead of running to the forums whenever I get beaten...

 

EDIT: you appear to have judged the validity of my opinion based solely on an assumed motive

I assume nothing with your motives, your actions speak for you.

 

1. made profile today, 

2. posted 2 comments trashing on Fakename.

3. posted 1 comment above, not denying that you were here to trash him, but defending right to be here, where your only action that others can see, is trash him.....

 

please, prove me wrong, have something cogent to add to the forums as a whole, or at least deny outright that you were here to trash him! 



#130
n3onfx

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I assume nothing with your motives, your actions speak for you.

 

1. made profile today, 

2. posted 2 comments trashing on Fakename.

3. posted 1 comment above, not denying that you were here to trash him, but defending right to be here, where your only action that others can see, is trash him.....

 

please, prove me wrong, have something cogent to add to the forums as a whole, or at least deny outright that you were here to trash him! 

 

Don't bother, I remember his username. He joined for some games on EU during a match on Bunker, got lucky cleaning up wounded mechs and proceeded to badmouth everybody in the server saying how much he was better than everybody. Next game he was there from the start, got trashed, raged and left. 


Edited by n3onfx, 18 April 2015 - 01:23 AM.

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#131
CrimsonKaim

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All you do is complain Fakename... honestly, you are only 2200 mmr, maybe thats why everything seems OP to you because 2200 mmr is not that great

 

 

Hmmmm...


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#132
crockrocket

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All you do is complain Fakename... honestly, you are only 2200 mmr, maybe thats why everything seems OP to you because 2200 mmr is not that great

K fuzzy bunny you


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#133
Nov8tr

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#134
CrimsonKaim

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So we can do it like Greece and Germany. "We agree on the fact that we don't agree."

Would anyone agree on that? :D

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#135
Jerv

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The problem with finding the median between high tier balance and low tier balance is that high tier players are going to find the things to exploit. We'll have a situation where a very small number of mechs will be viable and competition will disapear. We already have the orb lord thing and that's with the game being balanced at the top end. Hellfires are garbage because they balanced for the middle tier. Those are both problems. One was exploited by the high end, while the other wasmade boring by the low end. Balance the game at the top.

 

~Balance at the top and drive the other 90% of the player base away... sounds like a good business plan to me!

 

Seriously though, it makes the most sense to balance it for the median where the majority of players are. If I gave you a choice between five $100 bills or fifty $20 bills, which would you take? Before you answer, remember the cold, hard fact that the devs aren't making Hawken for charity. I'm not sure there are enough people in the top 0.5% of Hawken players to put food on the dev's tables or pay for the servers.

 

When you do min/max munchkinism, your meta is going to be considerably different than for the average "got outta work and wanna blow stuff up!" player. Thus, the top end will never be truly balanced without ruining the game for the majority simply because the top players are the type of players that look for every exploit anyways, and the means to prevent that generally lead to imbalances at the lower, less competitive levels. I don't think I've seen a video game yet that was equally balanced at all levels without being simple to the point of being quite restrictive. Do you want to simplify Hawken by, say, removing items altogether to prevent "orb lording"?

 

You won't make everyone happy, so it's best to just try to maximize the number that you do please.


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#136
Hyginos

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~Balance at the top and drive the other 90% of the player base away... sounds like a good business plan to me!

 

Balancing to the top level does not by any means necessitate alienating the remainder of the player base. Riot Games, for example, does it all the time.

 

There will always be a meta, and that meta will pretty much always vary a bit by skill level. The thing is the quality of the meta matters less and less as player skill decreases because the players of lower skill will have a more varying skill set and often be less capable of abusing the finer points of whatever mechanics define the meta as it exists at a higher level.


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#137
Arkhaun

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Balancing to the top level does not by any means necessitate alienating the remainder of the player base. Riot Games, for example, does it all the time.

 

There will always be a meta, and that meta will pretty much always vary a bit by skill level. The thing is the quality of the meta matters less and less as player skill decreases because the players of lower skill will have a more varying skill set and often be less capable of abusing the finer points of whatever mechanics define the meta as it exists at a higher level.

riot games... *sideshow bob groan*


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#138
IareDave

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~Balance at the top and drive the other 90% of the player base away... sounds like a good business plan to me!

 

Seriously though, it makes the most sense to balance it for the median where the majority of players are. If I gave you a choice between five $100 bills or fifty $20 bills, which would you take? Before you answer, remember the cold, hard fact that the devs aren't making Hawken for charity. I'm not sure there are enough people in the top 0.5% of Hawken players to put food on the dev's tables or pay for the servers.

 

When you do min/max munchkinism, your meta is going to be considerably different than for the average "got outta work and wanna blow stuff up!" player. Thus, the top end will never be truly balanced without ruining the game for the majority simply because the top players are the type of players that look for every exploit anyways, and the means to prevent that generally lead to imbalances at the lower, less competitive levels. I don't think I've seen a video game yet that was equally balanced at all levels without being simple to the point of being quite restrictive. Do you want to simplify Hawken by, say, removing items altogether to prevent "orb lording"?

 

You won't make everyone happy, so it's best to just try to maximize the number that you do please.

 

 

Do you want to simplify Hawken by, say, removing items altogether to prevent "orb lording"?

That's funny. I didn't know there was any complicated gameplay elements at play when a player sits on an orb and tanks damage from 2 oncoming players. Much movement, much wow. 

 

Balance at the top and drive the other 90% of the player base away... sounds like a good business plan to me!

Exaggeration at it's finest. Please, do some browsing on the forums as to what we actually want before you start throwing around these posts. 

 

Seriously though, it makes the most sense to balance it for the median where the majority of players are. If I gave you a choice between five $100 bills or fifty $20 bills, which would you take? Before you answer, remember the cold, hard fact that the devs aren't making Hawken for charity. I'm not sure there are enough people in the top 0.5% of Hawken players to put food on the dev's tables or pay for the servers

No, that doesn't make any sense at all. You don't balance a game from the opinions of a lesser skilled player - that's how you break balance. As to your last opinionated claim, a majority of the top players have spent hundreds of dollars since the launch of this game, and quite a few comp. players from the TPG league have just dished out $120 or so for the new private servers. You might want to update those numbers next time. 


Edited by IareDave, 24 April 2015 - 12:37 PM.

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#139
Panzermanathod

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I think some of this is subjective reasoning and some of this is simply high tier guys trying to get rid of an annoyance.

 

I mean, I don't find the Incinerator to be particularly OP (I'd sooner say the Scout is more OP), and anyone who says the PPA is very easy to use might not actually have used it all that much.

 

And I get why some want the tech to be nerfed due to its abilities (although I think it's removal is a bit much).

 

I don't think this is fully "noobs vs elites" and shouldn't be strictly treated this way. Even a mid tier MMR person might have more varied experience with a mech than someone with higher MMR.

 

This is why I said everyone's opinions (Or the ones who have half decent knowledge of the game at the very least) have to be listened to as well. I realize that the higher tier guys would know far more than others, but it doesn't mean that everyone but the over 2000 club have absolutely no say in all this. There are many different ways a match can go with many playstyles and many optimal and not so optimal tactics.



#140
GGGanjaMan

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I mean, I don't find the Incinerator to be particularly OP (I'd sooner say the Scout is more OP), and anyone who says the PPA is very easy to use might not actually have used it all that much.

 

 

LOL! Yeah the scout is so OP! I'm totally with you on this bro, I hear it from EVERYONE! Let's nerf scouts and buff incinerators and assaults! Yup, that would balance the gameplay around the median tier wouldn't you say?

 

Then after those changes are made, due to the very small playerbase of this game, you will likely have some of those high tier players pop into your games... then we can all play incinerators and assaults, and when they proceed to dominate you completely with just much better aiming and positioning than you could ever achieve, and rack up scores in the 1000s, then only will we dream of the good ole' days where we actually had a chance against them when they fuzzy bunnyed around in those squishy scoots that died in 3 shots.


Edited by GGGanjaMan, 24 April 2015 - 01:57 PM.


#141
Panzermanathod

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I'm not saying Scouts are OP. I'm saying that, if I were to go off and saying which mechs are OP, I'd sooner say Scout than Incinerator.



#142
GGGanjaMan

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I'm not saying Scouts are OP. I'm saying that, if I were to go off and saying which mechs are OP, I'd sooner say Scout than Incinerator.

 

Comparing a scout to an incinerator, can you detail what about the scout compares as OP to the incinerator?

How many hits does it take to kill a scout with your secondary? How many hits does a scout need to kill you with theirs?

Is it the scout's infinite firing potential with no weapons downtime ever?

Is it the scout's C-class HP combined with B-class speeds/mobility?

Is it the scout's incredibly huge splash damage that also simultaneously overheats enemies?

Is it the scout's ability to absorb heat from other friendly mechs to allow it to fire even more infinitely and allow a tech to heal it forever?

 

Just any sort of detailed justification for when you make statements like that would mean a lot. Or maybe it all comes down to who can aim and who can't?



#143
Panzermanathod

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Just any sort of detailed justification for when you make statements like that would mean a lot. Or maybe it all comes down to who can aim and who can't?

 

 

I think some of this is subjective reasoning and some of this is simply high tier guys trying to get rid of an annoyance.

 

 There are many different ways a match can go with many playstyles and many optimal and not so optimal tactics.

 

I never said I was beyond such subjective reasoning, just that some of the other reasoning here is probably subjective as well. That being said, as I've said before, I've seen far more capable/annoying Scouts than capable Incinerators.

 

Also Incin drains heat from enemies as well. It drains heat from everyone.



#144
Kittles

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Personally I find the Demolitions mech to be OP.

 

That Flak+GL combo does not belong on such a fast B class!



#145
Epsilon_Knight

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Nerf breacher Reaper.  Also heat+gl Predator is a bit much, along with miniflak Berserker.

 

I'd like to see these mechs balanced.



#146
Jerv

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IareDave - People like you are why I am having a hard time giving Hawken a chance.

 

Hawken exists solely for the top 1% of players to have their tournaments, so go ahead, keep YOUR game.


Still recovering from a neurological incident, spent a couple months learning how to walk without a cane,

figured I'd try a fast-paced game to see if I could get my reflexes back to where they were.

Garage:

A - Infiltrator, Reaper, Technician, Scout

B - Assault (x2), Predator, Raider

C - Brawler, Vanguard, Incinerator


#147
Aregon

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All you do is complain Fakename... honestly, you are only 2200 mmr, maybe thats why everything seems OP to you because 2200 mmr is not that great

Nilesy. Dude. I want you to define what is the average, what is bad, what is good in the MMR system, because you seem like a genius.
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#148
IareDave

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IareDave - People like you are why I am having a hard time giving Hawken a chance.

 

Hawken exists solely for the top 1% of players to have their tournaments, so go ahead, keep YOUR game.

You disregard my last post completely and instead compile a sentence out of your salty tears as if you know a single thing about me. I've played this game for over 2 years, spent $200+, hosted various community tournaments, participated in new player training programs, invited players on reddit to duel/learn from me, and I'm still here, supporting the game I love... and you?

 

If you're gonna leave, the door's wide open. 


Edited by IareDave, 25 April 2015 - 12:39 AM.

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#149
Nept

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IareDave - People like you are why I am having a hard time giving Hawken a chance.

 

Hawken exists solely for the top 1% of players to have their tournaments, so go ahead, keep YOUR game.

 

Bit of a whiny git, aren't you?

 

There, now you can avoid Canada, Eurasians, males, athletic people, graduate students, and people who post on internet forums.


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#150
Xacius

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God I fuzzy bunnyng love these forums.  



#151
BariumBlue

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Very relevant video:

 

Vanguard turret is great example; it's great for mid/lower tier players, as it's fairly powerful and easy to execute, but is made suboptimal when other, more skill-intensive strategies are used.

 

I guess it's OK to balance the game for different skill-tiers, as long as each tier provides varied and interesting gameplay. In the end, low-tier, mid-tier, and high-tier are going to have different optimal strategies, so it might be better to embrace that rather than reject it.

 

Though I do dislike the idea of some mechs becoming obsolete at higher tiers.


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#152
Nov8tr

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"Nov8tr" is pronounced "INNOVATOR"

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#153
Meraple

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Nerf breacher Reaper.  Also heat+gl Predator is a bit much, along with miniflak Berserker.

 

I'd like to see these mechs balanced.

PN-223 Incinerator is obviously the most OP, do you even know anything about this game?






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