132 replies to this topic

[reVelske]

There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why players need to see MMR of servers/players. Hide that fuzzy bunny so people can get on with just playing the god damn game.

[Meraple]

There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why players need to see MMR of servers/players. Hide that fuzzy bunny so people can get on with just playing the god damn game.

I generally don't find it too fun to play in servers of less than ~2100-2200 average MMR.

I find it fairly useful to be able to see the average MMR of servers on herokuapp before I log into the game.

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 18 June 2015 - 06:48 AM.

[Pelanthoris]

 

The four bottles represent one role each. (No n role like flanker, front liner, etc.) Let's say for example the first bottle represents a player's ability to fight in a team. The 5th bottle pours water in this one. Let's say 0.8 l. In the other bottles is also water poured in but for each only 0.2 l.

When I read this I was about to post "The few times I played with you and all your posts on the forums show me that your bottle of team play is empty!"

 

Then I read this

Me for example, I am a true solo player and will most likely not stay at my team. My playstyle only works out if my team does not consist of these 0.8 l bottle players which need a specific factor, in this example more teamplayers. Because without me, their playtsyle won't work out as they don't have the support to archieve their goal. This will result in my playstyle not working out because I can't flank if there is no front line.
And this is a major factor for raging players, trust me, it is.

which makes me happy, as i can see you acknowledge it.

 

On completely separate note, I made this because I think mmr in itself is broken. My proposal is also broken in many places, but it would solve some things described here by others.

[reVelske]

I generally don't find it too fun to play in servers of less than ~2100-2200 average MMR.

I find it fairly useful to be able to see the average MMR of servers on herokuapp before I log into the game.

 

Server star rating system says hi.

 

And I'm sure you'll survive not being able to cherrypick.

Edited by reVelske, 18 June 2015 - 06:52 AM.

[HHJFTRU]

I was happier before I learned how to monitor my MMR.

I'm trying (hard) to observe MMR as a practical thing which is used for matchmaking/balancing and not for measuring my e-peen  skill.

For competitive fun I'd love to see regular tournaments with prizes (like MC, emblems, exclusive camos 'n' stuff) with leagues divided to rookie/low/mid and high tier.

[Meraple]

Server star rating system says hi.

 

And I'm sure you'll survive not being able to cherrypick.

Even 2200 servers aren't in my MMR range - however I do want to play in them.

Servers of 2300 or over are very rare in EU. (Those are high enough for me to get in through Server Browser.)

That's when I queue up, and hope I land in that specific server.

 

The star rating system displays everything out of your MMR range as 0-star, so it doesn't help there.

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 18 June 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[reVelske]

Too fussy.

 

I guess it's an inevitable issue for people at the higher end of MMR in a game with relatively low population. But honestly, this is one of the very few cases I'd use the overused term "DEAL WITH IT". Getting bad games is something we all have to deal with in every other competitive multiplayer game, be it MOBA, FPS or RTS, Hawken should be no exception, game shouldn't cater for people's desire to cherrypick.

Edited by reVelske, 18 June 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Even 2200 servers aren't in my MMR range - however I do want to play in them.

Servers of 2300 or over are very rare in EU. (Those are high enough for me to get in through Server Browser.)

That's when I queue up, and hope I land in that specific server.

 

The star rating system displays everything out of your MMR range as 0-star, so it doesn't help there.

 

Struggles of farming MMR points like Bill Gates farms money :P

Do it like me: Intentionally lower your MMR so you can easy peasy join a match.

 

 

But still, MMR restrictions are bad, even with lower MMR it is hard to find a match :/

[Meraple]

Do it like me: Intentionally lower your MMR so you can easy peasy join a match.

And then when I play normally afterwards, it goes up again.

I don't want to do boring things like those half the time I play this game.

But whatever, smurfs work as well.

 

 

But honestly, this is one of the very few cases I'd use the overused term "DEAL WITH IT". Getting bad games is something we all have to deal with in every other competitive multiplayer game, be it MOBA, FPS or RTS, Hawken should be no exception, game shouldn't cater for people's desire to cherrypick.

It's not just about me, most players in a <2000 server don't enjoy me playing there.

[TheButtSatisfier]

The only true measure of a player's skill is how many times they're accused of hacking in a week.

[CrimsonKaim]

There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why players need to see MMR of servers/players. Hide that fuzzy bunny so people can get on with just playing the god damn game.

 

Then I want the KDR stats back (in-match). :]

[reVelske]

It's not just about me, most players in a <2000 server don't enjoy me playing there.

 

Those jackasses can DEAL WITH IT as well. And I bet they'd fuzzy bunny less if they didn't know about your MMR.

 

Then I want the KDR stats back (in-match). :]

 

Except your KD are there, or are you just bad at doing math?

[Hyginos]

It's funny how most of the players (if not all of them) who praise this current system with words such as 'brilliant & working well' are all in the top of the leaderboard with mmr of 2500 or above. Why would you want a change in a system that makes you look good ?

 

I think this is an interesting note, but it also works both ways. Why would you advocate for a system that makes you look bad?

 

The only relevant metric in determining how good the system is, IMO, is how close the average match is.

[CrimsonKaim]

 

Except your KD are there, or are you just bad at doing math?

 

 

I didn't think I had to tell you that I mean the public KDR stats. 

[reVelske]

What public KDR stats?

[coldform]

Community organized gameplay seems to be the way to go for me - tpg/scrims/clan practice/war wed/sssdm/try-weeklys/server "crashing"(like crashing a party IRL) with team speak chums = playing pub matches ~30% of the time. So like 3 matches out of every 5 that I play are organized by MM/MMR. Because of these organized matches my MMR is probably skewed.

I only care about my PSR now.

[Aregon]

Imagine if the MMR was completely invisible, and the only way of knowing its existence was that team balance seemed to take some pattern.

Who came up with the genius idea of showing it anyway? 

[CrimsonKaim]

What public KDR stats?

 

 

These:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Plus the three "Top 3" ratings. Most kills, most score and most deaths. Especially the most deaths were the shaming spots, you better never stood there ;P

[DerMax]

These:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Plus the three "Top 3" ratings. Most kills, most score and most deaths. Especially the most deaths were the shaming spots, you better never stood there ;P

That's KDA, not KDR, you goof. reVelske was trying to point that out.

 

And yeah, I totally liked seeing players' KDAs.

Edited by DerMax, 18 June 2015 - 08:15 AM.

[reVelske]

I thought scores have always the better epeen measurement in a high TTK game. Besides, best K/KDR player already get listed in the end game scoreboard, if you aren't there, you not important, clearly.

Edited by reVelske, 18 June 2015 - 08:15 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

That's KDA, not KDR, you goof. reVelske was trying to point that out.

 

And yeah, I totally liked seeing players' KDAs.

 

Kill-Death-Ratio or Kill/Deaths/Assist (-ratio aka KDAR), we don't have to be that specific, do we?

 

I thought scores have always the better epeen measurement in a high TTK game. Besides, best K/KDR player already get listed in the end game scoreboard, if you aren't there, you not important, clearly.

 

Well I don't think so, since the only thing you have to do in order to archieve a hig hscore is either killstealing or deaing raw damage or in case of a siege game, farm EU. 

Strategic kills like killing the tech, flanking, etc. are 1. harder to do and 2. take a lot more time than just holding LMB and RMB. 

I think a score bonus for killing Technicians should do, it would make players force the TEchnician more which is good ._.

 

Whatever, for the highscoreboard, yea, that's true, you are right. Still most deaths missing :P 

I remember the times where it was possible to have the highest score plus the highest amount of deaths, always a "shame winner" haha :D.

[DerMax]

Kill-Death-Ratio or Kill/Deaths/Assist (-ratio aka KDAR), we don't have to be that specific, do we?

The screenshot you showed there doesn't have any ratios in it. It just shows KDA and a bunch of other stuff. Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

[reVelske]

Well I don't think so, since the only thing you have to do in order to archieve a hig hscore is either killstealing or deaing raw damage or in case of a siege game, farm EU. 

Strategic kills like killing the tech, flanking, etc. are 1. harder to do and 2. take a lot more time than just holding LMB and RMB. 

I think a score bonus for killing Technicians should do, it would make players force the TEchnician more which is good ._.

Well, KDA isn't gonna show what you've been killing, whilst accumulating score via dealing damage is exactly what offsets "killstealing" - something that is incredibly likely and meaningless in high TTK game. And collecting EU? That's doing a good job and should be rewarded in most circumstances.

 

I much rather see people who've been doing high amount of damage have some presence on the scoreboard than to have nothing to show for it beyond Assist score (which is gonna get outshined by Techs anyways), meanwhile KDA is beyond pointless on Siege.

 

Stop derailing your own thread you halfwit.

Edited by reVelske, 18 June 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[Flifang]

No system is without flaws, however this system can be improved a lot. Unfortunately fixing the matchmaker would be a lot easier with a larger player pool. The mmr gap will lessen over time, and the population will change over time. This is a pretty big thing that needs to be done but will have to take time if they're going to do it right. I'm pretty sure there is a math equation out there that could be used to predict how any MM changes will effect the population but I'm not aware of any with enough variables to take into account everything that it needs to in what calculates MMR

[CrimsonKaim]

Well, KDA isn't gonna show what you've been killing, whilst accumulating score via dealing damage is exactly what offsets "killstealing" - something that is incredibly likely and meaningless in high TTK game. And collecting EU? That's doing a good job and should be rewarded in most circumstances.

 

I much rather see people who've been doing high amount of damage have some presence on the scoreboard than to have nothing to show for it beyond Assist score (which is gonna get outshined by Techs anyways), meanwhile KDA is beyond pointless on Siege.

 

Stop derailing your own thread you halfwit.

 

 

It's not my thread, lolz. But with the damage score, people will obviously just pick damage mechs. Sustained, sniper or a Technician to farm points. Don't tell me this is right. Especially if you focus on unskilled players, it is way too easy to farm points. And farming points will, by the way, increase your MMR even though if you are just farming points and don't do anything skillful. 

 

It is no challenge to stay at your team with an Assault and deal some damage to enemies. These are the palyers who have a higher MMR than their worthy and even skilled opponents. 

 

The problem with Score being the representative value for MMR increase/decrease is that you don't play the gamemode well or what the gamemode needs. MA for example needs silos while capturing a silo gives you 0 score. A bunch full of "score farmers" will most likely lose against a team of palyers who actually understand and play the gamemode right.

 

 

MMR would work way better if it isn't reliant on only one factor, which is score compared to the average MMR rating of the server in combination with the average score archieved over time. 

In addition, respect the gamemodes as well, e.g. MA, how many silos captured, time spent in combat at silo (attacking, defending) and take kills and deaths as well as damage dealt and score less int oaccoutn since it has less to do with MA. 

Ofcourse, if the whole enemy team is dead, it is fairly easy to capture a silo, lol :D

[CrimsonKaim]

The screenshot you showed there doesn't have any ratios in it. It just shows KDA and a bunch of other stuff. Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

 

[reVelske]

Oh heavens, I genuinely thought you were the one who made the thread, you are both people with mech as profile pic, UNDERSTANDABLE MISTAKE!

 

Also, every mech is a "damage mech" except Tech who has its own ways of accumulating points, and KDA does not somehow solve this "problem", not that it is one.

 

Last I checked, there are a lot more that go into MMR calculation than score, so moot point, not like KDA somehow offer anything better or meaningful.

 

 

[LaurenEmily]

Last I checked, there are a lot more that go into MMR calculation than score, so moot point, not like KDA somehow offer anything better or meaningful.

 

Pretty sure it's just how much points a player scores compared to the other players on the server, the MMR increase/decrease being relative to the average MMR of the server. Also i believe i read somewhere that if you are in a match less than 2 minutes it doesn't count at all.

 

KDA is pretty completely irrelevant in it.

Edited by (KDR) LaurenEmily, 18 June 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Oh heavens, I genuinely thought you were the one who made the thread, you are both people with mech as profile pic, UNDERSTANDABLE MISTAKE!

 

 

Maybe I should write my name in my profile pic so you don't get confused next time :P

 

 

But for KDA/KDR/whatever. I think this should be taken into account, especially in TeamDeathmatch since it is the most important factor for winning. I'd rather prefare a player with stats like 8/1/4 Score: 214 than a player with stats like 15/13/11 Score: 389. The one with the most score is, by far, not the best since he was way more deaths than the first player. And in TDM, kill count is the only thing that counts, so why not calculate the ratings for KDA in TDM, silos caputred in MA and whatsoever?

[StubbornPuppet]

Well, the fact is that the matchmaker has to use something to try to make more balanced matches - that is MMR.  We all know it's there and any attempt from developers to hide it is just going to raise even more complaints and suspicion.  Transparency is very important to building trust - in this case, showing us exactly what figure Hawken uses to determine a players fitness helps us see how matchmaking and team balancing is supposed to work.  It helps alleviate unfounded complaints about it not working or being skewed.  Hide it away... and people will use their imaginations and fears to come up with all sorts of false accusations about how it works.

[reVelske]

"Transparency"? What? What the crap are you on about? Dev already explained how matchmaking currently work, what more "transparency" do you need? Do you need them to provide you with every formula and every value available in the game codes? How would any of these help you in any way shape or form? MMR value itself serve absolutely no purpose beyond epeen measurement for us, WE as players do NOT need to see them, they exist purely for the matchmaking system to use.

 

MMR exist in many MANY other competitive multiplayer games, most of which do not even give them away in any way shape or form, and I can guarantee you that vast majority of the players couldn't give less crap about it. Hell, I've never even heard of MMR prior to people flexing it around like epeen on this god damn board.

[CrimsonKaim]

Well maybe you are a special kind of insider and knows things we don't know.
Where did the devs explained how mm works? And yes with Formulars please 'cause this is what we are looking for.

And yes players jeed to know how a game works so they can plan their actions in order to archieve smth.

[LaurenEmily]

Locking the mmr stats away forever is only like the second biggest wish i have about this game right now. It would be such a big load off my mind when i play.

[reVelske]

Where did the devs explained how mm works? And yes with Formulars please 'cause this is what we are looking for.

 

https://community.pl...ome-adjustments

 

One of the many threads Josh explained matchmaking formula adjustments, what more do you need?

 

 

And yes players jeed to know how a game works so they can plan their actions in order to archieve smth.

 

That is so incredibly vague. I NEED TO KNOW THIS INFO SO I CAN MAYBE DO STUFFS AND LIKE... MAKE STUFF HAPPEN.

 

Again, MMR does nothing constructive for the players, any speculation of people going to poopoo their pants because it's not there is just frankly speculation aka horsedung. Will SOME people whine? Of course, people don't like change and they whine just about anything and everything, will it have any actual impact on the enjoyability of Hawken? Heavens no, not negatively, it's been tucked away from the playerbase in just about every other competitive multiplayer game on the market, and those games have bitchier brats than what Hawken has, and they are getting on with their lives just fine.

Edited by reVelske, 18 June 2015 - 10:36 PM.

[Nept]

Locking the mmr stats away forever is only like the second biggest wish i have about this game right now. It would be such a big load off my mind when i play.

 

Then I'm going to suggest not giving a good god damn about MMR!

[BaronSaturday]

So we really missed the point like two pages ago...

[JeffMagnum]

There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why players need to see MMR of servers/players. Hide that fuzzy bunny so people can get on with just playing the god damn game.

"Transparency"? What? What the crap are you on about? Dev already explained how matchmaking currently work, what more "transparency" do you need? Do you need them to provide you with every formula and every value available in the game codes? How would any of these help you in any way shape or form? MMR value itself serve absolutely no purpose beyond epeen measurement for us, WE as players do NOT need to see them, they exist purely for the matchmaking system to use.

 

MMR exist in many MANY other competitive multiplayer games, most of which do not even give them away in any way shape or form, and I can guarantee you that vast majority of the players couldn't give less crap about it. Hell, I've never even heard of MMR prior to people flexing it around like epeen on this god damn board.

re, or are you just bad at doing math?

 

Again, MMR does nothing constructive for the players, any speculation of people going to poopoo their pants because it's not there is just frankly speculation aka horsedung. Will SOME people whine? Of course, people don't like change and they whine just about anything and everything, will it have any actual impact on the enjoyability of Hawken? Heavens no, not negatively, it's been tucked away from the playerbase in just about every other competitive multiplayer game on the market, and those games have bitchier brats than what Hawken has, and they are getting on with their lives just fine.

 

low-MMR peasant detected

[DerMax]

low-MMR peasant detected

High-mmr peasant detected xD

[reVelske]

at 200-250ms, I consider 1750MMR to be pretty decent, especially since I literally cannot hit any half-decent A-class.

 

N-not like I want high MMR or anything, so don't get the wrong idea!

Edited by reVelske, 19 June 2015 - 01:52 AM.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

The only true measure of a player's skill is how many times they're accused of hacking in a week.

 

I haven't even been accused of hacking one. ;( I still haven't graduated from Hawken! 

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 19 June 2015 - 07:31 PM.