108 replies to this topic

[crockrocket]

 

At the risk of fracturing the player base, is everyone sure we don't need a few new gametypes with their own rules? Skill tiers that limit what mechs/internals/"Rules of Game Physics" apply? It's a Unreal Engine game, and a neat thing about UT was the Mutators (e.g. Low Grav, Instagib, others). Sure would be nice if there were things like  "High TTK mod", "No Techs Mod", "Classic Pre-Ascension Rules Mod",etc.

I think everyone wants more gamemodes, that's certainly a unique way of looking at these issues though. As you say, I think at this point such modes would fracture the playerbase, but down the line I think it would be amazing to have an array of options like that. Of course, those will also be very expensive in terms of time and money.

[TheVulong]

tickle post:

 

Air Compressor:

The air compressor is literally the only thing that gives aerial play any viability whatsoever. When you fly, you aren't using cover systems, or are only using them in a very basic way AND IF YOU ARE you are allowing projectile splash weapons to be more effective, because you are obviously near a wall of some sort. If you're not utilizing cover systems while in air, projectile splash weapons will be less effective against you in 85% of the cases, but you're also not in cover. Take away the air compressor and flying (as opposed to jumping or bunny hopping, which obviously have their place without the AC) is 100% useless.

 

I think in general, aerial play is severely underpowered in every mech except the berserker, which in addition to being the fastest mech in flight, has the highest DPS and health of any A class, plus a DPS boosting ability. If you're concerned about the AC on account of the berserker, don't be. If reloaded has any stake in the AC debate, I'm positive the berserker will be looked at hard. Tweaking aerial play in general is a hard task, and I'm not up to scratch when it comes to discussing aerial balance (given that I never use it). However, the one thing I think absolutely needs to be done is:

Remove the level requirement for AC. As I said, AC practically unlocks aerial play, and allowing users to essentially buy into aerial options without leveling up is likely the greatest Pay to Win aspect of the game.

From what i've red, it makes me think that you view the aerial play as the main way people should be playing this game now, and fully ground oriented play is just a sub-par option we should never go back to.

 

Also, when talking about aerial play being underpowered on every mech except Zerker, you really are wrong, because Scout and Infiltrator move almost as fast, and hell, with all their burst damage, they are a much bigger problem when equipped with AC.

[ticklemyiguana]

From what i've red, it makes me think that you view the aerial play as the main way people should be playing this game now, and fully ground oriented play is just a sub-par option we should never go back to.

 

Also, when talking about aerial play being underpowered on every mech except Zerker, you really are wrong, because Scout and Infiltrator move almost as fast, and hell, with all their burst damage, they are a much bigger problem when equipped with AC.

Goodness no. I think it should be an option, which it currently really isn't.

 

As far as the infil and scout are concerned, I've yet to see them be issues, but there is likely a separation of experience there.

 

I would like to respond to the notion of burst damage being problematic when facing an aerial opponent.
Burst play requires rapid changes in movement, both in terms of dodging and boosting, which cannot be accomplished in air. In effect, significant aerial play seems to force one to use sustained weapons, which is why the berserker seems to be so problematic.

Ground based play gives the user a far greater range of control, and also wastes less fuel, making it superior for most playstyles.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 24 March 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[DieselCat]

Maybe I'm making an oversimplified observation here, but haven't we seen this same tug-of-war over and over re: TTK, view from newish player vs view from the top, Ascension vs non-Ascension? When you're new to the game (or playing with HIGH PING / a different country), high TTK, hellfires, lack of Air Compressors, Technicians, weapon spread (think Flak shotgun spread vs Hawkins-RPR or Sabot), and high dodge cooldowns all seem great. As you become more experienced (or are talented enough for competitive play) these things become impediments - high TTK leads to deathballs and slugfests  while low TTK places a premium on accuracy and speed, hellfires are derided as 'skillfires', Air Compressors become nearly essential, certain items (scanner) and mechs (Tech/ Tech + C-Class) are avoided as unbalanced or unfair, etc.

 

At the risk of fracturing the player base, is everyone sure we don't need a few new gametypes with their own rules? Skill tiers that limit what mechs/internals/"Rules of Game Physics" apply? It's a Unreal Engine game, and a neat thing about UT was the Mutators (e.g. Low Grav, Instagib, others). Sure would be nice if there were things like  "High TTK mod", "No Techs Mod", "Classic Pre-Ascension Rules Mod",etc.

 

Yes, I know. First things first - keep the game up and running. Later, we'd have to rewrite the game from scratch. But instead, how about a gametype or two that brings back some of the 'old' stuff or rules for those who want it? Or limits the mechs or maps you can choose from, or new maps with more aerial platforms to use that AC for? Or a gametype for high ping players or guests from halfway around the world instead of x miles from USEast?

 

 

 

 

TL;DR : 

 

We're all saying "this thing is broken", or "that thing is is fine, leave it alone".  

What if the real problem is that we're not being accomodating enough for both sides? Aren't we trying to attract more players of all skill levels and tastes?

 

 

I agree...I've always liked the idea of having the option of playing, say ranked matches where your scores determine where you are on a leaderboard. Ranked games would be allowed to use any and all uses the game offers.  

Also having an option of a custom match where a player has a list of predetermined game rules...i.e ..what mechs are allowed, no techs, techs but on both teams, what internals and items are allowed or not..etc. These mod rules would be determined by the player that starts the custom game and any players that joins in would be subject to these rules.

I use to play a lot of Supreme Commander and it had these type of game modes which were used very successfully. 

I also agree that this type of idea is getting a bit ahead of things but a little food for thought for down the road that can have a direct effect on the issues now being discussed may help resolve them later on.

 

*+ 

[talon70]

Death balling happens without techs all the time. The way spawning happens is more responsible than tech especially on a map like bunker.

 

edit: Make the Tech and Incin totally toxic to one another! If they get too close for too long, the tech freaks out and red beams his own team until there is a violent explosion taking any mech near it out. [due to the quantumly  entangled circuitry being opposite]

Edited by talon70, 23 March 2015 - 09:13 PM.

[xRequiem]

AC:
Maybe increase the fuel it uses. Definitely make it more accessible.

I personally like it less for the ability to dodge in midair and more for the utility of dodging out of jump pads and the "airdodge up a slanted ledge" trick. That may just be me. 

 

 

Tech:

Increase the heat it generates, maybe slow down the heal rate. Tech + Incin should not mean infinite heals with no worry of overheating. 

 

 

Incin:

Lower the splash range or feather the damage more. Such huge AoE at that rate of fire shouldn't do that much damage. 
Lower its base health or lower is movement speed, maybe both. At least change something. Second highest C-class health, just under first highest C-class walk speed, pulls heat off of nearby mechs, and the capacity to deal the damage it does? Pick something that isn't "All of the above" and tweak the mech. 

Just as an idea due to stuff I notice - Punish the Incin more for overheating. The thing is "Heat Management: The Mech" but has the least amount of downtime on overheat. I can rain fiery death forever, have an ability to vent my heat as well, and still suffer the least consequence of any mech that overheats? Try again. Not exactly something that would really affect higher level players, but it came to mind. 

Edited by xRequiem, 23 March 2015 - 10:07 PM.

[crockrocket]

Death balling happens without techs all the time. The way spawning happens is more responsible than tech especially on a map like bunker.

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet. In my experience this is almost entirely responsible for deathballs (bunker is a perfect example).

I don't know what the solution for this is since you can't just set the spawn points due to camping. Perhaps decrease the spawn timer?

[Houruck]

i think an item that could, when deployed, could force mechs to the ground and stay on the ground for a limited time.

As much as I hate those bees, I am not a fan of this. It reminds me of the notorious stunlock.

Stop complaining and trying to nerf everything that makes this game playable for me at 260+ms.
You're going to make this game even harder D:
 
Incin is fine.
Tech is fine.
Air compressor is fine.
Everything is fine.

[DaPheel]

The AC has damaged things like corner poking and the "tango" style dancing fights. Not only that, but it feels like a mandatory choice on my mechs. For the record I have been using it on my Grenadiers and A classes because i feel i need to in order to compete with others that use it, without it i am missing a whole movement option.

 

I would like to see how increasing airbourne fuel consumption played out. Less fuel means a smarter playstle and people would have to pick and choose their moments to use it, rather than abuse it.

 

I think the best way to break the Technician/Incinerator combo would be to stop the incinerator leeching heat from the tech and prevent the tech from healing an Incinerator that is shooting. This would stop the forever heal/shoot and force the incinerator to drop back into cover for healing and allow the other team to push back during this time, as opposed to "flee teh deathball". Some tech/incin games are like watchin a benny hill video.....

[n3onfx]

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet. In my experience this is almost entirely responsible for deathballs (bunker is a perfect example).

I don't know what the solution for this is since you can't just set the spawn points due to camping. Perhaps decrease the spawn timer?

 

Bunker is a problem that goes much farther than the general way spawning happens in the game. It's just so small and open that if one of the two teams manages to kill something like 3 or 4 players on the other team without losing more than one themselves spawnlocking happens. And this only needs to happen once to get the ball rolling out of control.

 

You can see where the players will spawn from across the map and keep picking off the players spawning before they can regroup and this until the end of the game. The problem is exacerbated when Sharpshooters and Rocketeers can supress the players that just spawned from across the map while the rest of the team closes in on them. Making sure that team will never be able to regroup until the end of the game.

 

It's just a very bad map design for Hawken and should serve as an example on how not to design maps for this game.

[NSCL]

 

Balance – Tipping the scales

As of right now things are pretty balanced for the most part. There are, however, a few things that can be changed. One thing (as mentioned before in a previous post), is the importance to make it so weapons can be modified on a per mech basis. One example is anything using a flak or an assault rifle. As things are setup currently on the backups (by horrible design from poor or lazy programing), to modify a single weapon on a single mech modifies them all! To put this further into context, let’s say the Assault needs to have a slight adjustment to the assault rifle because it is too strong and where the berserker is too weak (not saying they are, just using as an example here).

 

Currently, to change the DPS or even weapon spread on the AS would modify it on both mechs! So if one is already strong, it gets stronger and the same came be said for the weaker ones. This desperately needs to be fixes but would require a huge amount of work to redo it. Pretty much requiring the entire system used to be gutted and start fresh.

Now, that is not saying it is going to be easy; but the extra time would make any kind of weapon balancing MUCH easier in the future.

 

I have this idea. It is radical, it will rather not be implemented in near future, and I will probably make separate thread about it, but here it is:

 

Let's change a weapons, for "old set" of mechs, to the brand new ones.

 

We should face it, the first mechs were designed the "cheap way". Because of that, we have whole bunch of mechs with nearly the same loadouts (ex. CR-T and assault, vanguard and grenadier etc.). And special abilities don't make enough difference. I would like to have unique primary weapon on all (or at least most of) mechs and more variety in secondary weapons. Or something like Incinerator have - one secondary weapon with 3 variations.

 

This will also kill the problem with weapon modification. But I'm aware that it's a bit unorthodox solution    

Edited by NSCL, 24 March 2015 - 03:42 AM.

[shosca]

Also, when talking about aerial play being underpowered on every mech except Zerker, you really are wrong, because Scout and Infiltrator move almost as fast, and hell, with all their burst damage, they are a much bigger problem when equipped with AC.

 

Not according to the stats. Scout gets a 32% speed penalty for staying in the air. Infil gets about 20% speed penalty.

Edited by shosca, 24 March 2015 - 05:22 AM.

[PoopSlinger]

Put me down for wanting Air Dodge on every mech.  Maybe increase the fuel required to air dodge, but put it on every mech.  The more varied and wilder movements makes for more exciting fights and gameplay.

[Superkamikazee]

Can we open up a discussion as to what kind of game Hawken even is? Arena shooter or mech shooter? 

 

It's clear we can't have a mix of both, that ship came, went, and sank to the bottom of the deepest of oceans. The next outing there needs to be clear decision which genre this game fits into, and which genre will be best received. Niche (mech) + niche (arena) doesn't mean fans of both will automatically gravitate and enjoy the mix. 

[Houruck]

I feel old when someone says arena shooters have a niche market.
I do not think we need to categorise the game like that but it was never meant to be a simulator.

Edited by Houruck, 24 March 2015 - 06:20 AM.

[OmegaNull]

I feel old when someone says arena shooters have a niche market.
I do not think we need to categorise the game like that but it was never meant to be a simulator.

That I can agree with. It's Hawken!

[Superkamikazee]

I feel old when someone says arena shooters have a niche market.
I do not think we need to categorise the game like that but it was never meant to be a simulator.

 

That's because you and I are old. The kids love them MOBA's, so much so devs are putting MOBA elements in shooters, see Overwatch, and Gigantic. That's only the start of it, so yes, Arena shooter, niche.

 

That I can agree with. It's Hawken

 

 

And it didn't work out. I don't want to be the debby downer, but that pitch won't cut it in todays shooter market, and less so on PC. Sorry.

[Duralumi]

Ah, so is this the suggestion thread then?

In that case, my idea for the Tech is to do three things:

• Remove the Helix Repair Torch
• Move the Red0x into the Secondary slot
• Give Technician a passive AoE damage reduction (something like 5-10%) that stacks (barely, so three or so techs would only grant a 15-20% damage reduction)

This changes a number of aspects about the Tech:

1. It makes the advantages that the Technician provides conditional. Whereas healing is a benefit that is always relevant unless the target is a full HP (which they're unlikely to be in the middle of a fight), damage reductions/multipliers are only relevant upon the target taking damage.
2. Gives the Technician a more active role on the battlefield. This means that the contribution it brings to the team is additive, rather than multiplicative (a technician couldn't do jack squat if your teammates are bad or heavily out-skilled).
3. Stops the Technician from being a laughing stock on its own. Combining the Red0x with primary weapons will boost their damage output noticably above the norm.
4. Gives the Technician more equally spread synergy across the game's roster. Currently the favoured ally of a Technician is a C class due to their larger health pool. Damage modifiers aid every class equally.

 

/techrant

The Technician adds yet another source of health on top of Hawken's already existant plethora of healing sources. The reason there are so many resources already in existence is because, like Heat and Fuel, Health is a resource. The Helix causes inflation in the "economy of health" by decreasing the value of each individual unit, as it provides a steady, infinite source of it.

 

When health is less of a resource, chip damage is less of a factor. When chip damage is less of a factor, the opposing teams no longer have a multitude of windows of varying size and effectiveness through which they can extend their presence (and say, move a bit closer to the silo), what instead happens is that there ends up being an increasing number of tiny windows of extreme effectiveness (if one person dies on a team or moves away from the fight for whatever reason, it can lead to a multikill or even wipe in a matter of seconds).

 

Deathballs may exist without the Technician, but they are much, much less potent because it will need to break up from time to time for repairs due to the slowly accumulating damage it takes in confrontations. Its these break-ups that allow the other team to push in and dismantle it.

 

The reason the Tech/Incin combo is so stupid is because both mechs trivialize the value of a resource in their own fashion; the Incinirator is the lesser evil in this duo however, because its trivialization is passive. If the Incinirator could actively siphon heat from mechs it'd be as big an issue as the Technician because suppresssion/staggering your shots would be less of a tactical choice.

/endtechrant

 

Technician and Helix Repair Torch are pretty much interchangable in this post. Sorry if you get confused.

Edited by Duralumi, 24 March 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[LRod]

Personally, I could care less about the AC, but do like the suggestion to make it available to everyone.  If you want to add it to your loadout...go for it.  If you hate the air game and want to focus on ground game...go for it.

 

As for changes to the Tech and Incin; I love Devotion's suggestions for nerfing the Tech's abilities while also adding buffs to the green-beam cool down period and boosting armor.  I also love Omega's suggestion for modifiying the Incin's heat dispersion ability.

 

As for Cap'n Josh actually paying attention to the community..."you had me at hello". 

[deidarall]

So I made a very very short little vid meant as a introduction to the wind walking issues. 

 

 

I plan to cover more duels and to better flesh out ideas in another follow up vid. Note btw how hard the zerk actually is to hit, even for a hitscan mech when he uses the elevation limits, and the fact that he can pretty much dodge even on ground due to there being no fuel cost for dodging on ground so once he closes distance with the air jazz there is no real risk for doing so cause even in a worst case he can still dodge once he hits ground.

 

Also take into account the situation awareness. If I had been fighting a normal boosting mech at the start of the engagement I would have been able to keep track of the brawler, however due to that fact I have to start looking up to fight, I really have no idea what this guy is doing. The wind walking is quite simply too powerful of a tool in terms of effecting the pace of gameplay, which is why I think the option of removing it is actually a valid view not to be discounted, as I do not see how one could make it otherwise fair in terms of how it compares to the ground work movement system. 

Edited by deidarall, 24 March 2015 - 08:40 AM.

[OdinTheWise]

As much as I hate those bees, I am not a fan of this. It reminds me of the notorious stunlock.

 

how is it anything like a stun lock, it doesnt have to restrict mobility, just restrict height 

[Nept]

I'm posting something I wrote for an AC thread from the previous forums.  Many of the players currently debating AC participated, and many of the same points were raised.  You can view the thread here, minus page "6" (which is unfortunate, for that's where the debate was quelched).  It's worthwhile noting the poll at the top, wherein ~42% felt that the internal should be made universal, ~24% felt that it should remain as is, ~19% felt that it should be limited to a particular mech, and ~15% felt another solution was in order.  In other words, at least 66% of respondents enjoyed AC's inclusion in the game while 19-34% [The 34% being an extremely generous allocation of the 15% who desired another solution] felt either that its presence should be limited or that another tweak should be found. 

 

As for context, the post was written as a counterargument to Deadman_Tim's assertion that AC provided an imbalance of benefits for the user.  One of his foundational assertions (and one which was incorrect) was that I was a predominantly A-class player who was arguing for my own benefit - hence my focus on that topic at the beginning of the post.  At the time, The_Vulong and DerMax - along with several Vodka People players - agreed with his assessment.  On these new forums, I've also seen denials by those same players that high ping plays into their dislike of the air compressor.  It's worth noting that on the previous forums, their high ping was made a factor in these discussions.  Aregorn, for instance, noted the high ping that the Russian players possessed.  It's likely, then, that ping played a part in their opinions.  Unfortunately, you can't balance for high ping - something that The_Vulong (amongst many others) noted.

 

Anyway, here's the post.  It obtained far more "likes" than anything else in the thread, and that it effectively ended the conversation.  If anyone's able to access page 6 of those archives, I'd greatly appreciate their help.

 

 

Since I've yet to see a decent analysis, I've decided to provide one:

 

Tim and company argue that AC detracts from the game's skill by providing players an “ultra-low risk” maneuverability option. There is also the possibility that they want AC removed for their own gain; that is, that its removal would benefit their performance by reducing Hawken's aiming requirements.

 

Leon and I are arguing that AC adds to the game's skill (and that its removal would lower the game's skill ceiling) by forcing players – including those players using proximity-heavy splash weaponry – to strike targets possessing expanded maneuverability options. In other words, AC decreases the system's redundancy and adds another uncertainty to the aiming process. We believe that Hawken should emphasize aiming ability alongside tactical positioning, and that AC actually contributes to tactical variation (and thus, to the skill ceiling). There is also the possibility that we want AC emphasized for our own gain; that is, that its presence provides us the means to circumvent tactical positioning. I think it's particularly telling, though, that both myself and Leon main classes that would only benefit from AC's removal – at least regarding ease-of-use. Tim's assertion that it doesn't matter whether I mean A-classes is quite incorrect: the fact that I don't main A-classes and yet want AC to remain a core gameplay component indicates my desire for a skill-based and challenging game.

 

An additional complication is the standard which was set by Hawken's earlier gameplay – gameplay which heavily favoured splash weaponry. Although splash weaponry within Hawken requires that shooters compensate for travel times, the most utilized secondary splash weapons are remote-detonation or auto-tracking – features that dramatically drop the skill ceiling. Additionally, Hawken's overwhelmingly powerful radar, when combined with remote detonation or mine-laying capabilities, dumbs down the game's aiming requirements dramatically. I would also argue that the type of gameplay it promoted (spamming splash from behind corners) could hardly be termed “skillful tactical positioning”. Finally, the projectile travel times have always been quite low, and the mechs have been largely ground-locked (or slooooowly floating through the air).

 

Given this context, it's unsurprising to see splash-heavy players upset by the aiming requirements introduced through the air compressor. Although the air dodges themselves are easily struck by strong players, there is certainly a learning curve involved. Players who believe that air dodging negatives projectile-based weapons, however, are deluding themselves. Strong players – my team amongst them – hit high percentages of their projectile shots (Heat Cannon, Saare Launcher, Redox, EOC, etc.) against air dodging opponents. They are also able to hit direct TOW's quite easily. AC requires from players a higher skill level than has typically been present in Hawken, so it's bound to ruffle some feathers. No, you no longer possess the overwhelming, easy-aim advantage you once did; but no, you're certainly not neutered – provided you learn to aim and position yourself a bit better.

 

It's also worth noting that pings too far above 110-120 render this type of aiming difficult. Dermax, for example, relied heavily upon splash and approximated aiming to fare decently with his 200 Ameri-ping. I can udnerstand why such players are dismayed by AC's presence, but I cannot have their inconvenience decrease the game's skill ceiling further. I would much rather see Hawken's server locations expanded so that they too might compete within their respective regions.

 

Edited by Nept, 25 March 2015 - 03:06 AM.

[RedVan]

So I made a very very short little vid meant as a introduction to the wind walking issues. 

 

 

I plan to cover more duels and to better flesh out ideas in another follow up vid. Note btw how hard the zerk actually is to hit, even for a hitscan mech when he uses the elevation limits, and the fact that he can pretty much dodge even on ground due to there being no fuel cost for dodging on ground so once he closes distance with the air jazz there is no real risk for doing so cause even in a worst case he can still dodge once he hits ground.

 

Also take into account the situation awareness. If I had been fighting a normal boosting mech at the start of the engagement I would have been able to keep track of the brawler, however due to that fact I have to start looking up to fight, I really have no idea what this guy is doing. The wind walking is quite simply too powerful of a tool in terms of effecting the pace of gameplay, which is why I think the option of removing it is actually a valid view not to be discounted, as I do not see how one could make it otherwise fair in terms of how it compares to the ground work movement system. 

 

Do see my response to this video here:  https://community.pl...for-all/?p=4835

 

 :)

[Nov8tr]

Yeah I can see where tweaking the air would be good. Sure a high end player can take out somebody in the air. True. Don't remove it though, it is fun. But do the best you can to fix it to make most people happy. We all know it is impossible to make everyone happy.

 

Now the tech. I hate techs. I hated them the day they came out. They cause far more trouble then they are worth. I would prefer they not only take them out but set fire to all of them in a blaze of glory. BUT they probably won't. They may just fix em. Shrug. Hey I'm not the boss. :p Now you get to fix someone else's bad idea. Not fair, but hey, reality 101. Good luck Josh. :D

[defekt]

Enjoyable video, Tree.  Thanks for taking the time to make it.  I'm not going to drop into a point-by-point analysis of it, mostly because I've not played this game for many months and no longer feel qualified to do so, but I will pick up on one or two points that stand out for me.  (In addition, I think RedVan makes some excellent points in his linked reply.)

 

Firstly, when you're going 1v2 you're almost always going to come off worse.  Situational awareness is as much about knowing where the rest of your team is as it is about tracking the enemy.

 

Secondly, the vertical deflection limit is the thing that annoyed me most about dealing with bees: I couldn't hit them but they still seemed to be able to hit me.

 

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly from my point of view, air play allows a mech to deliver maximum DPS whilst in full retreat; faster in some cases than some mechs can boost to keep up with - remembering that the chaser can't attack whilst boosting.  (The Zerker is clearly the outstanding example here, but other mechs are still able to make excellent use of the air game.) It used to be a Hawken characteristic, mentioned several times by previous designers -- and this goes way back to Alpha 1 when back-dodge/boosting was first called for -- that Hawken needed to be all about the attack and things like back-dodge and retrograde boosting that allowed people to attack whilst in full retreat didn't sit well with where ADH (at the time) wanted Hawken to go. 

 

I honestly don't know what needs to be done to satisfy everyone -- hell, I don't even think that's possible -- but if I was pressed to come up with a few suggests I'd probably contribute the following:-

• Sort out the Zerker first. It's an outlier and needs to be reined in.

• If the air game is to be a thing then give it to everyone; don't gate it behind progression.

• Make it adhere to the same fundamental rules that ground work operates under, in that back-pedalling (back-drifting) is slow and cumbersome. (If a mech wants to make a full retreat it should be a rule that in order to do that you must turn your guns away from your pursuer.)

• Fix it so that positive aiming deflection is able to hit air targets in situations where the airborne target is still able to hit you.

• Bring back some of the fuel management for dodging.

Edited by defekt, 25 March 2015 - 04:09 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

Well whatever happens with AC I hope it's the right decision. Last thing Hawken needs is a mechanic that alienates or becomes off putting for new players. March 2014 Hawken had 3000+ players, by December 2014 barely hitting 300 players. I don't want a repeat of that.

[RedVan]

 

Enjoyable video, Tree.  Thanks for taking the time to make it.  I'm not going to drop into a point-by-point analysis of it, mostly because I've not played this game for many months and no longer feel qualified to do so, but I will pick up on one or two points that stand out for me.  (In addition, I think RedVan makes some excellent points in his linked reply.)

 

Firstly, when you're going 1v2 you're almost always going to come off worse.  Situational awareness is as much about knowing where the rest of your team is as it is about tracking the enemy.

 

Secondly, the vertical deflection limit is the thing that annoyed me most about dealing with bees: I couldn't hit them but they still seemed to be able to hit me.

 

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly from my point of view, air play allows a mech to deliver maximum DPS whilst in full retreat; faster in some cases than some mechs can boost to keep up with - remembering that the chaser can't attack whilst boosting.  (The Zerker is clearly the outstanding example here, but other mechs are still able to make excellent use of the air game.) It used to be a Hawken characteristic, mentioned several times by previous designers -- and this goes way back to Alpha 1 when back-dodge/boosting was first called for -- that Hawken needed to be all about the attack and things like back-dodge and retrograde boosting that allowed people to attack whilst in full retreat didn't sit well with where ADH (at the time) wanted Hawken to go. 

 

I honestly don't know what needs to be done to satisfy everyone -- hell, I don't even think that's possible -- but if I was pressed to come up with a few suggests I'd probably contribute the following:-

• Sort out the Zerker first. It's an outlier and needs to be reined in.

• If the air game is to be a thing then give it to everyone; don't gate it behind progression.

• Make it adhere to the same fundamental rules that ground work operates under, in that back-pedalling (back-drifting) is slow and cumbersome. (If a mech wants to make a full retreat it should be a rule that in order to do that you must turn your guns away from your pursuer.)

• Fix it so that positive aiming deflection is able to hit air targets in situations where the airborne target is still able to hit you.

• Bring back some of the fuel management for dodging.

 

Dam out of likes again after just getting 2 back to use :(

 

But I do like this post.

[defekt]

Dam out of likes again after just getting 2 back to use :(

 

But I do like this post.

;)  That's okay. 

[deidarall]

Firstly, when you're going 1v2 you're almost always going to come off worse.  Situational awareness is as much about knowing where the rest of your team is as it is about tracking the enemy.

 

Secondly, the vertical deflection limit is the thing that annoyed me most about dealing with bees: I couldn't hit them but they still seemed to be able to hit me.

 

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly from my point of view, air play allows a mech to deliver maximum DPS whilst in full retreat; faster in some cases than some mechs can boost to keep up with - remembering that the chaser can't attack whilst boosting.  (The Zerker is clearly the outstanding example here, but other mechs are still able to make excellent use of the air game.) It used to be a Hawken characteristic, mentioned several times by previous designers -- and this goes way back to Alpha 1 when back-dodge/boosting was first called for -- that Hawken needed to be all about the attack and things like back-dodge and retrograde boosting that allowed people to attack whilst in full retreat didn't sit well with where ADH (at the time) wanted Hawken to go. 

 

 

1, the situation awareness I was addressing was not directly related to team awareness, it is about awareness of what is happening around you, when your forced to look up, your forced to lose a lot of visual cues around you for managing where you are in space, and overall have less of a idea of what is going on around you, it makes actually countering  the air player harder, as they when they look down at you, have much better spacial awareness. I do not directly mind that I lost, or was double teamed, I mind that in it puts me into a situation that I am on the back foot in a much much larger manner than I think is necessary, in terms of pacing, 2v1 already has a large edge I would argue compounding that is not needed, mostly due to pacing.

 

2, I know, and it is not that really aiming up and down that is hard, it is doing it while trying to manage the limit, AND stay aware of where you are in space, something the air player is having less trouble with due to his vantage point. 

 

 3, that is the thing, wind walking can be used to press, and fall back and do damage, it is annoying from a pacing point of view, when I talk about these issues, I am not always coming or thinking about it from a balance point of view as redvan often seems to. Balance is related to pacing and how the game plays, but balanced is not always going to be best  for pacing.

 

When we for example talk about removing radar for all, it is a balanced idea, but I think we all admit it would change pacing, and when we talk about pacing changes, which is what wind walking does, we are talking about something that is not directly about balance but about the ideals of the game design. 

 

I think Redvan is wrong when he brings up old pre-alpha vids as a boon to his view, I think it simply proves it was once a idea that was left behind, and was brought back again, and personally I think it's effects on pacing show us why. He keeps putting blame on how we are reacting based on skill, which only goes so far. Look in the vid I admit to not playing perfectly, that was not the point, it was to show that it is not so simple to deal with as people are at times painting it out to be.

 

Look I have not played the game for the longest nor am I "Da best" but I think over and over people telling me it is just my problem is silly. 

 

Also I said before, it was a intro vid with a single duel to prove a point, the zerker was able to press well with air work, and he was not just super simple to hit. Why? Cause he played it well, but I think it also shows how awkward it can be to fight in a spacial manner cause at the end of the day I am looking up, and when I talk about awareness then I am not talking about the team or anything like that the simple fact of looking up is that your blind to the ground, while the man in the sky knows exactly where you are. It adds to the awkwardness, and this happens all the time with several mechs, that awkward feeling of looking up and losing where you are in space while also having to deal with the elevation limit. A example of that is getting killed by the scout on the ground and being forced to look away from the brawler that quickly and losing track of him.

 

 

Here is my actual response redvan: https://community.pl...findpost&p=5218

 

I <3 you~~~~

Edited by deidarall, 25 March 2015 - 10:17 AM.