108 replies to this topic

[OmegaNull]

***Please Note: Below are opinions and suggestions. Not a game design document***

 

 

Hawken, Movement, and how to make things more �Grounded� into something more cohesive

 

Pre-Ascension, the movement mechanics were much different than they are now. Currently, with air compressors there is a dynamic to gameplay that seems to just be �added on�. I think that maybe offering tweaks to this and finding a way to make it more cohesive with the game would be great. I love the extra movement speed, but it just seems off sometimes, at least with the heavies. A heavy mech shouldn't be able to float as well as they do... 

 

By no means should AIR COMPRESSOR SHOULD NOT BE REMOVED OR NERFED into the ground. Just tweaks, that is it. 

 

 

Now, with that out of the way, I want to just give how I really feel about air compressor overall: It is awesome. The extra movement speed is nice, but sometimes I feel that it may need tweaked, in some cases buffed a bit. It may just be that it needs to be left alone overall. Please, for the love of every man and child, DO NOT REDUCE ACCURACY WHILE IN THE AIR! Speaking with Nept (privately) pointed out it would be a horrible, horrible decision. 

Furthermore, this is an item that should be accessible to more people. I think that really boils down to it. 

 

And to sum it all up:

 

Don't touch the AC. Leave it exactly the same.

The two polar opinions on this are to either entirely remove the AC or to make it a default include on every mech. Including it on every mech would free up space for other internals, making flight even more a part of the game then it already is, so don't do that. Removing it on the other hand would take an element of depth out of the game that a lot of people really enjoy. Okay, so how about a compromise? Well, I for one have yet to hear a suggestion to nerf the AC that wouldn't completely invalidate it, effectively removing it from play. Buff? I know Devotion suggested making it a two slot internal, but I think that would make the AC more prevalent by freeing up the the 3-slot spot for something else (air-dodging orb lord? Nah I'm good).

TL;DR: Community is divided on this, and the best compromise is the current solution.

 

EDIT:

 

 

Don't do that, people with more smurfs get more voting power.

 

 

 

 

A good player can land shots against ground targets, as well as targets in the air. If a good player can land shots against targets on the ground, but cannot hit them reliably in the air - then you just found your weakness.

When I first joined Omni i exclusively played the heat scout and could land all of my shots on ground targets but flustered as soon as mechs(typically A classes but some Bs) took to the sky, my accuracy plummeted. So what did I do? I took my teammates and had them float in the sky until I could land my shots.

The takeaway from this - learn from your mistakes, maximize your strengths, and minimize your weaknesses. above all, practice. Instead of jumping on the very easy to ride anti x mechanic bandwagon.

 

Deathballs - The Heals and Feels

This is something that has bothered more for a long time and I have never really voiced my opinion here. Personally, Tech breaks the game. It promotes death balling, reduces the importance of strategic healing (before, you got orbs from a kill, not from items or another mech) and having to drop out of the fight for a drone heal. Before, death balls were there, but nowhere near as bad as they are now and could be broken up with enough of an assault or sustained pressure.

 

 Now, they are self-sustained game breaking issues of a greater problem. Either the Tech needs to be fixed or completely removed. This promotes clumping, less reliance on a team kill and personal skill, and more of a reliance on a single item or thing. Couple this with the incinerator, it further promotes and exacerbates the issue. Now a team doesn�t have to worry about not only healing, but heat as well! Two of the most self-limiting systems in the entire game! Yes, it speeds things up but it is a nightmare and near bullish to play against. Once it starts it is a never ending feedback into the system. Not to mention how demoralizing it is!

 

 

Balance � Tipping the scales

As of right now things are pretty balanced for the most part. There are, however, a few things that can be changed. One thing (as mentioned before in a previous post), is the importance to make it so weapons can be modified on a per mech basis. One example is anything using a flak or an assault rifle. As things are setup currently on the backups (by horrible design from poor or lazy programing), to modify a single weapon on a single mech modifies them all! To put this further into context, let�s say the Assault needs to have a slight adjustment to the assault rifle because it is too strong and where the berserker is too weak (not saying they are, just using as an example here).

 

Currently, to change the DPS or even weapon spread on the AS would modify it on both mechs! So if one is already strong, it gets stronger and the same came be said for the weaker ones. This desperately needs to be fixes but would require a huge amount of work to redo it. Pretty much requiring the entire system used to be gutted and start fresh.

Now, that is not saying it is going to be easy; but the extra time would make any kind of weapon balancing MUCH easier in the future.

 

 

In conclusion, things as they are at the moment are okay, but they do require a massive overall or possible tweaking. Something that is going to take time, but in my eyes, feels to be something needed. 

 

 

Possible Community Proposals

 

Incinerator

Omega's Suggestion 

Spoiler

As I was walking to my car and with the incinerator on my mind, I think gold may have come out. The incinerator's passive ability is something that I think should be turned INTO an ability. Remove the butt stomp and instead turn its heat vamp ability from allies (and enemies) into something that does the following:

 

X heat intake over X time

For X amount of time. I would propose at least 10 seconds and have to cool down for 30-45 seconds. 

 

Also make it so that the heat capacity (25%?) is increased for this period of time (since it will now have a much greater heat source), kinda like an overclocked mode. However, there is a strict penalty that is in play IF you are over the heat limit when the ability ends: overheat but for 1-2 seconds longer. Since the damage of the incin is related to the its heat capacity, it also acts like an overcharge state. Increase damage as well. 

 

When the ability is not active, its heat vamp is off.

Devotion's Suggestion

Spoiler

i have a huge list of grievances with the incin's design honestly. all existing mechs have a modular design: 3 primaries, 1 secondary, 1 ability that influences stats, excepting pred/infil (even turret mode is a series of stat adjustments). the incin is inherently imbalanced because it pushes beyond that: it's got an additional heat absorption passive, firing the saare decreases it's heat, it has a moba ability for it's active, and it also delivers heat on saare hit. i wouldn't mind all hawken mechs being redesigned to this standard, but as it stands it is objectively gifted over other mechs.

 

beyond that, it just feels like it's kind of all over the place. it is too punishing against mechs that rely on ground based movement like raider/assault while not having enough game against airborne targets. it has an optimal fighting distance by design, but if you're even slightly farther than that, you essentially have to choose which one of your weapons you want to consistently hit with. the ppa is the only weapon which sees play, which means that there are two ded weapon selections. because the ppa generates so much heat, players only use the alternate saare fire, which means there's a ded weapon fire option as well. because it's weapons wind up, it prefers to continuously fire, which is awkward for covert map movement. this isn't even touching on the stats, like it being tied (i think?) for fastest c in game.

 

there are a lot of values that can be tweaked on the incin, but i think the best short term solution is to rebalance the stats (slightly less hp, less move speed, move weapon dps around, increased fuel tank), while internally working on a long term redesign.

 

Tech

 

Devotion's Suggestion

Spoiler

technician:

1. decrease the rate of heal
2. decrease the rate of green beam
3. decrease the heat of tech primaries
4. decrease the cooldown of green beam
5. increase the tech's hp

in a 6v6 tdm environment, a tech vs. an uncoordinated team is overwhelming. i think one of the things i'd like to move away from the most is sustain in general, and the tech is the worst culprit. the problem with sustain is that the numbers are too high and sustain is too strong relative to expected dps; by green beaming someone, you almost guarantee an invincible mech. while nerfing the tech's heal values across the board seems heavy, i think the buffs in heat, cooldown and hp are enough to rebalance the tech in a still competitive manner.

 

 

 

Air Compressor

 

N3onfx's Suggestion

Spoiler

 

I've touched on this on another topic so I'll just link it here, but I think it's more the air mechanics that need to be adjusted than the air compressor itself. The way I see it the AC is just a catalyst for the air mechanics being a bit off. The main culprits being how low the fuel consumption of flying is and how easily and fast you can adapt your aim while flying. Tweaking those values would keep the depth and thinking added by AC without having to make sweeping changes to a game many love as is.

Please keep in mind it's always the people unhappy with the current situation that are the most vocal. Unless you do a poll and let it up for some time you just can't know if the majority is just keeping silent because they like the situation as is. Pleasing a vocal minority without giving it enough time is dangerous.

 

Here is my view on it, for what it's worth : https://community.pl...for-all/?p=3288

Omega's Suggestion

Spoiler

The more that I thought on this and with accordance to merl's and N3onfx's post, I think he is right. The issue has to do more with air dynamics (speed of which mechs move in the air) than anything else. The item itself is likely not really an issue at all (hence why I edited my post).

 

OdinTheWise's Idea

Spoiler

 

 

i think an item that could, when deployed, could force mechs to the ground and stay on the ground for a limited time. 

 

 

Teeth_03's Suggestion

Spoiler

 

My 2 cents:

 

Give everyone the AC

 

Change the air mechanics so its a give-take kind of thing. Give your mech the ability to be harder to hit, but make it so it takes more damage in the air, and maybe the weapons recharge slower (more power goes to the thrusters to keep you in the air right?)

 

 

Other Balance Suggestions

Devotion's Suggestions on balance

Merl's Stance

Spoiler

Ok. If josh is reading this thread I need to make something clear. The air game is weak. The berserker needs to be managed. That is obvious. On every other mech though, going in the air is almost always a bad idea. I do not run air compressor on almost anything. Why? It wastes fuel and encourages use of the air which is not a good thing. I don't even use ac on zerker, and neither does Dave (arguably the best zerker pilot in hawken). What internals could possibly be better than the air compressor? The orb internals. They are far superior, yet the cry from the majority of people is to nerf something that is already balanced. Why? Most people are not sufficiently skilled to utilize the orb meta. Anyone can pop on an air compressor and stomp newbies. If you can't hit those people, you need to get better. Don't give up! Don't nerf things that are already balanced! Improve your game. You can't take on a zerker in the air in the open in your eoc infil? Have you considered that you are out of position? No. You blame the "overpowered" internal/weapon/mech for your demise. That's why you aren't good enough to deal with them yet. Not because they can't be dealt with. Because you refuse to improve to the point where you have the ability to do so. 

Is sustained too strong overall? Maybe. Is it game breaking? No. The air game is in a great place. It adds depth to the battlefield, while not being a necessity for success. I know that I am going to receive flak for this. Go ahead. It doesn't change the facts. Josh, please balance the game to the right standard. Not for the people who refuse to improve. Thank you, and I'll see you on the battlefield.

Merl

 

EDIT Update:

Added more expanded view on first section. 

 

Added Suggestions section as per Josh's idea (<3)

Edited by OmegaNull, 23 March 2015 - 06:42 PM.

[Merl61]

People in the air are easy to hit as it is. Ask any high level player. The ground game is much better. Come on omega. You're better than this.

[OmegaNull]

I was siding with the EU guys here. Yes they are easy to hit (mostly) but it just doesn't fit right. That was my point. Just my point of view, take it or leave it. 

 

Sorry I had let my mind ramble on something. Resolved and updated. Read it and was like, "What the hell did I just write?".

Edited by OmegaNull, 23 March 2015 - 12:23 PM.

[Guns_N_Rozer]

good Point Omega    will be better if A class mech has low Air speed like C class have ( for an example Brawler).

 

                                        since A class mech has low health ,orb lord idea is ok but when its on a C class mech ....it's too difficult .

[Guns_N_Rozer]

People in the air are easy to hit as it is. Ask any high level player. The ground game is much better. Come on omega. You're better than this.

Agreed 

[Sylhiri]

People in the air are easy to hit as it is. Ask any high level player. The ground game is much better. Come on omega. You're better than this.

 

Hell with sustain hitscan you don't even need to lead or worry about weapon delay.

 

Cover? Spacebar! :3

Edited by Sylhiri, 23 March 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[OmegaNull]

I edited things. lol

[Superkamikazee]

I'm all for a more "grounded" Hawken. I've always said something wasn't right with the air game in Hawken. As much as Hawken is an arena shooter, at it's core, it's gaming hook so to speak, is that it's a post apocalyptic mech FPS. The mechs need to feel like big, heavy, lumbering hunks of metal death not some plastic action figure bees zipping about the skies the entire match.

 

I'm also in agreement about the Incinerator Tech death ball situation. 

 

Finally, I had no idea about the weapon tweaking quirk. Weapon adjustments need to be done on a per class basis, even if it's the same weapon. So again, agreed.

 

Anyways, not to burst this euphoric high everyone's on here about Hawkens second coming, but I think we are probably months, if not a year away from seeing any substantial changes within Hawken. I mean Josh still has to hire a team, and then that team needs to get familiar with Hawken, issues, quirks, and all before anything gets worked on. Maybe we should wait for an official thread from Josh asking for suggestions or something.

[deidarall]

People in the air are easy to hit as it is. Ask any high level player. The ground game is much better. Come on omega. You're better than this. 

 

Not really, I can provide video examples of this sometime, but your just not right if it was so simple to hit a ton of people would not be using the air game, and a ton of people are using the air game. If the zerker a light mech with little hp was so simple to hit in the air it would never wind walk due to low hp, but they use air all the time cause it is a good way to press damage and your fairly hard to hit. Look people are not just imagining this issue, you have to debate it instead of dismissing it at every turn. 

 

 Also do not imply omega is lesser cause he has a different view of the matter than you do. It is simply not needed. 

[OmegaNull]

I'm all for a more "grounded" Hawken. I've always said something wasn't right with the air game in Hawken. As much as Hawken is an arena shooter, at it's core, it's gaming hook so to speak, is that it's a post apocalyptic mech FPS. The mechs need to feel like big, heavy, lumbering hunks of metal death not some plastic action figure bees zipping about the skies the entire match.

 

I'm also in agreement about the Incinerator Tech death ball situation. 

 

Finally, I had no idea about the weapon tweaking quirk. Weapon adjustments need to be done on a per class basis, even if it's the same weapon. So again, agreed.

 

Anyways, not to burst this euphoric high everyone's on here about Hawkens second coming, but I think we are probably months, if not a year away from seeing any substantial changes within Hawken. I mean Josh still has to hire a team, and then that team needs to get familiar with Hawken, issues, quirks, and all before anything gets worked on. Maybe we should wait for an official thread from Josh asking for suggestions or something.

The truth be spoken! I am fine with things taking their time. Just wanted to voice my opinions. 

[StubbornPuppet]

I've found that the Air Compressor has become an essential component to remain competitive.  And, even though I am a scrubby player, I think that does help illustrate Omega's point about the air game.  Hell, I've even started putting it on my C-Class mechs so I don't get hit as often when I have to jump up to lob a shot over a hill or object.  And the really good players know how to use the air-dodge to instantly break a locked on Hellfire volley (I don't know how myself, I've done it a few times, but some guys are just pointless to lock Hellfires on to because they just jump up, dodge once and the missiles go flying off into oblivion).

 

I'll also concur that, while the sped up Hawken is still very enjoyable... I think I preferred it more when the mechs and time-to-kill were a bit slower.  I just felt like good positioning and strategy were more paramount at that point - where now it is all about getting close to enemies as quickly as possible and then dashing, jumping and boosting around while you pick away at them.  I hate MechWarrior, so I'm not saying make this like that at all.  Just saying I, personally, preferred the times of playing it smart with your mech and weapons took precedence over the ability to keep yourself aimed at an opponent while performing hyperactive acrobatics.

 

I'm not a fan of removing the Tech.  I like having that kind of mech in the game... but I do agree it needs many small adjustments to prevent the common complaints.  I'd rather think about fixing/adjusting the things that cause balance issues than jumping to the popular, "get rid of it altogether" mantra.

[CrimsonKaim]

I agree with omega in the most parts, no, every part.

[Duralumi]

Definitely agreed on the deathball part.

R E M O V E H E L I X

The Tech can be salvaged, but dedicated support roles have gotta go. The same sort of problems would arise if the Incinerator could actively siphon heat from teammates.

Edited by Duralumi, 23 March 2015 - 01:42 PM.

[capnjosh]

Figured I'd chime in, since this is a rather important topic.  Keep hammering at it, btw!  This is good so far.  My afternoon is extra-loaded today and tomorrow, but I'm going to be paying attention to this thread.

 

What if I asked you guys to put together a proposal that approaches a design doc?  Think of it as asserting a specific design, then when people respond it's to a very specific thing... then, you can adjust it.  Ultimately, I suspect we may have a set of topics that have the most current proposal/design in the original post... then people can "like" it (maybe that would help quantify demand for various features).

 

I don't want to hijack the topic, so if anyone is game for the proposal/design doc thing... maybe i've just committed Omega to having to update his original post again ;)

 

It seems there are 2 different topics so far:

 

1. the air compressor - how to make it "more balanced"

2. the tech/incinerator combo - how to make it "more balanced" without removing them

[OmegaNull]

Figured I'd chime in, since this is a rather important topic.  Keep hammering at it, btw!  This is good so far.  My afternoon is extra-loaded today and tomorrow, but I'm going to be paying attention to this thread.

 

What if I asked you guys to put together a proposal that approaches a design doc?  Think of it as asserting a specific design, then when people respond it's to a very specific thing... then, you can adjust it.  Ultimately, I suspect we may have a set of topics that have the most current proposal/design in the original post... then people can "like" it (maybe that would help quantify demand for various features).

 

I don't want to hijack the topic, so if anyone is game for the proposal/design doc thing... maybe i've just committed Omega to having to update his original post again ;)

 

It seems there are 2 different topics so far:

 

1. the air compressor - how to make it "more balanced"

2. the tech/incinerator combo - how to make it "more balanced" without removing them

 

I am fine with this. 

[Interrobang87]

It seems there are 2 different topics so far:

1. the air compressor - how to make it "more balanced"
2. the tech/incinerator combo - how to make it "more balanced" without removing them

Holy hell I love this guy. Reads the forums and RESPONDS asking for constructive feedback? WHAT?!

The King is dead! Long live the king!

Edited by Interrobang87, 23 March 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[Hrono]

never mind

Edited by Hrono, 23 March 2015 - 01:47 PM.

[n3onfx]

 

1. the air compressor - how to make it "more balanced"

 

 

I've touched on this on another topic so I'll just link it here, but I think it's more the air mechanics that need to be adjusted than the air compressor itself. The way I see it the AC is just a catalyst for the air mechanics being a bit off. The main culprits being how low the fuel consumption of flying is and how easily and fast you can adapt your aim while flying. Tweaking those values would keep the depth and thinking added by AC without having to make sweeping changes to a game many love as is.

Please keep in mind it's always the people unhappy with the current situation that are the most vocal. Unless you do a poll and let it up for some time you just can't know if the majority is just keeping silent because they like the situation as is. Pleasing a vocal minority without giving it enough time is dangerous.

 

Here is my view on it, for what it's worth : https://community.pl...for-all/?p=3288

 

edit: words

Edited by n3onfx, 23 March 2015 - 01:47 PM.

[Houruck]

People in the air are easy to hit as it is. Ask any high level player. The ground game is much better. Come on omega. You're better than this.

:|

[Hrono]

People in the air are easy to hit as it is. Ask any high level player. The ground game is much better. Come on omega. You're better than this.

Don't worry bro, no offence taken.

[Interrobang87]

I love the AC for helping me navigate the map and do cool things. For example on prosk (need more maps like it sans bridge) flying across rooftops like spiderman to escape/engage/position.

I hate it for the close fighting bumblebee's that are super hard to track directly above you.

I don't know of a solution but that's how I feel

[devotion]

Figured I'd chime in, since this is a rather important topic.  Keep hammering at it, btw!  This is good so far.  My afternoon is extra-loaded today and tomorrow, but I'm going to be paying attention to this thread.

 

What if I asked you guys to put together a proposal that approaches a design doc?  Think of it as asserting a specific design, then when people respond it's to a very specific thing... then, you can adjust it.  Ultimately, I suspect we may have a set of topics that have the most current proposal/design in the original post... then people can "like" it (maybe that would help quantify demand for various features).

 

I don't want to hijack the topic, so if anyone is game for the proposal/design doc thing... maybe i've just committed Omega to having to update his original post again ;)

 

It seems there are 2 different topics so far:

 

1. the air compressor - how to make it "more balanced"

2. the tech/incinerator combo - how to make it "more balanced" without removing them

hi josh. i made a post regarding some of my personal thoughts on balance here: https://community.pl...ce-suggestions/. my thoughts on the incin are here: https://community.pl...ions/#entry2610

[Merl61]

Ok. If josh is reading this thread I need to make something clear. The air game is weak. The berserker needs to be managed. That is obvious. On every other mech though, going in the air is almost always a bad idea. I do not run air compressor on almost anything. Why? It wastes fuel and encourages use of the air which is not a good thing. I don't even use ac on zerker, and neither does Dave (arguably the best zerker pilot in hawken). What internals could possibly be better than the air compressor? The orb internals. They are far superior, yet the cry from the majority of people is to nerf something that is already balanced. Why? Most people are not sufficiently skilled to utilize the orb meta. Anyone can pop on an air compressor and stomp newbies. If you can't hit those people, you need to get better. Don't give up! Don't nerf things that are already balanced! Improve your game. You can't take on a zerker in the air in the open in your eoc infil? Have you considered that you are out of position? No. You blame the "overpowered" internal/weapon/mech for your demise. That's why you aren't good enough to deal with them yet. Not because they can't be dealt with. Because you refuse to improve to the point where you have the ability to do so.

Is sustained too strong overall? Maybe. Is it game breaking? No. The air game is in a great place. It adds depth to the battlefield, while not being a necessity for success. I know that I am going to receive flak for this. Go ahead. It doesn't change the facts. Josh, please balance the game to the right standard. Not for the people who refuse to improve. Thank you, and I'll see you on the battlefield.

Merl

[Houruck]

...The orb internals. They are far superior, yet the cry from the majority of people is to nerf something that is already balanced. Why? Most people are not sufficiently skilled to utilize the orb meta. 

I actually run health orbs and related internals on my main Scout and heavily rely on it. 

What would be this "advanced orb meta" people can not utilise?

[Sylhiri]

Is there any way around "If you disagree, your not skilled enough" debate? It would be nice to have something more productive.

Edited by Sylhiri, 23 March 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[deidarall]

Ok. If josh is reading this thread I need to make something clear. The air game is weak. The berserker needs to be managed. That is obvious. On every other mech though, going in the air is almost always a bad idea. I do not run air compressor on almost anything. Why? It wastes fuel and encourages use of the air which is not a good thing. I don't even use ac on zerker, and neither does Dave (arguably the best zerker pilot in hawken). What internals could possibly be better than the air compressor? The orb internals. They are far superior, yet the cry from the majority of people is to nerf something that is already balanced. Why? Most people are not sufficiently skilled to utilize the orb meta. Anyone can pop on an air compressor and stomp newbies. If you can't hit those people, you need to get better. Don't give up! Don't nerf things that are already balanced! Improve your game. You can't take on a zerker in the air in the open in your eoc infil? Have you considered that you are out of position? No. You blame the "overpowered" internal/weapon/mech for your demise. That's why you aren't good enough to deal with them yet. Not because they can't be dealt with. Because you refuse to improve to the point where you have the ability to do so. 

Is sustained too strong overall? Maybe. Is it game breaking? No. The air game is in a great place. It adds depth to the battlefield, while not being a necessity for success. I know that I am going to receive flak for this. Go ahead. It doesn't change the facts. Josh, please balance the game to the right standard. Not for the people who refuse to improve. Thank you, and I'll see you on the battlefield.

Merl 

 

 

A ton of mechs can use air dodge for many situations, also really the balance of it is not the main reason I dislike it, it is simply not fun to fight, and really it again is not good for the feel of the gameplay. Again the wind walking is a simple way to manage distance that was not in place before and pretty much ruins the abrasive feeling of the game. Again your dismissing views on the matter in the vein of "There not good enough to give proper feedback." and I simply do not buy that. Omega has been around forever, I have been around forever, the EU guys have been around forever, so you do not get to play the "Well clearly your just not good enough" Card. Also depth is great! When it does not ruin the system in place the wind walking ruined foot work based dueling in a big way, and it has not been the same to play hawken sense. 

 

That being said ord lording is a issue but it is not as annoying or as ruining as the AC, or wind walker mechs in general, wind walking transcends cheesing, it quite simply perverts the gameplay. Also I think it is safe too say a good number of people are "Good enough" to have a good idea of what they are talking about in this thread. 

 

EDIT: Also everyone pretty much orb lords it is just good, too good, :P

Edited by deidarall, 23 March 2015 - 02:22 PM.

[deidarall]

My honest suggest of AC, and the wind walking? Just remove it. Cull it, kill it with fire, focus on the tight ground work and move on. With maybe just a few choice mechs being wind walker mechs and all others having 12/12/12 levels if air movement. 

 

Failing that, it needs to be much slower, have aiming issues, and should be focused on a different design idea. 

 

Imagine your in a dagger fight,  and you decide to risk it all by throwing the dagger, if it works your wound your foe and get a edge over the fight, if you missed your out of position and should be hammered down. That should be the air gameplay in hawken, a utility jump or movement only used with thought and great risk, as it is now it is a way to just constantly fight when in combat and it is just annoying. Partly due to how uniform it is, and partly cause it is just not really fitting end. 

[OmegaNull]

Figured I'd chime in, since this is a rather important topic.  Keep hammering at it, btw!  This is good so far.  My afternoon is extra-loaded today and tomorrow, but I'm going to be paying attention to this thread.

 

What if I asked you guys to put together a proposal that approaches a design doc?  Think of it as asserting a specific design, then when people respond it's to a very specific thing... then, you can adjust it.  Ultimately, I suspect we may have a set of topics that have the most current proposal/design in the original post... then people can "like" it (maybe that would help quantify demand for various features).

 

I don't want to hijack the topic, so if anyone is game for the proposal/design doc thing... maybe i've just committed Omega to having to update his original post again ;)

 

It seems there are 2 different topics so far:

 

1. the air compressor - how to make it "more balanced"

2. the tech/incinerator combo - how to make it "more balanced" without removing them

 

 

I just want to add in something here in regards to air compressor. There are just minor things that I think need to be done with it. Nothing crazy or ridiculous. Actually, it may in the end need a buff. We just gotta experiment and see. I really do not think there is a huge issue overall with AC.  

 

Is it really annoying for other players? Yes. Is it game breaking, no. 

[ZombieBiscuit]

Leave my high ping tech alone. :(

 

Stop being hator gators

[Fantus_Longhorn]

Ok. If josh is reading this thread I need to make something clear. The air game is weak. The berserker needs to be managed. That is obvious. On every other mech though, going in the air is almost always a bad idea. I do not run air compressor on almost anything. Why? It wastes fuel and encourages use of the air which is not a good thing. I don't even use ac on zerker, and neither does Dave (arguably the best zerker pilot in hawken). What internals could possibly be better than the air compressor? The orb internals. They are far superior, yet the cry from the majority of people is to nerf something that is already balanced. Why? Most people are not sufficiently skilled to utilize the orb meta. Anyone can pop on an air compressor and stomp newbies. If you can't hit those people, you need to get better. Don't give up! Don't nerf things that are already balanced! Improve your game. You can't take on a zerker in the air in the open in your eoc infil? Have you considered that you are out of position? No. You blame the "overpowered" internal/weapon/mech for your demise. That's why you aren't good enough to deal with them yet. Not because they can't be dealt with. Because you refuse to improve to the point where you have the ability to do so.

 

Stop making this about how good players (that you've never played against) may or may not be. It's not about whether someone has the ability to hit a target the size of a shed, anyone who is playing this game can do that. What's being questioned is whether that flying brick-shithouse is any fun to fight against. Sure, it's fun as hell to buzz around in the air (again, anyone can do it) but it's annoying as all hell and a pain in the arse to play against.

 

This was posted multiple time in the previous forum and it's worth posting again:

 

https://youtu.be/BRBcjsOt0_g(Extra Credits: Counterplay)

 

(It wouldn't embed for some reason so I just linked instead)

[bluebaron201]

***Assumption: Keep mechanics and mechs in game for additional diversity.***

 

~Air dodging~
 
Relevant Attributes:
Item sizes
run & boost speed, acceleration (ground vs air)
fuel consumption (ground vs air)
fuel
fuel regeneration
hit points
heat

What is the real problem?

Looking at the stats of air speed vs ground speed provided in game by hawken(valid statistics?) only the berserker has a faster than ground speed movement in the air. All other mechs are slower in the air than on the ground. Is it air movement in general or is it really only the berserker that we are concerned with? Does removing the viability of this option change viability of other mechs? Is there a meaningful internal/item build beyond "orb lords"?

 

The above attributes could be tweaked to further change the risk-reward for any mech. What do you think are important attributes to tweak in order to balance air movement while maintaining a fair risk-reward for exposing yourself in the air. I do not feel hit points should be reduced as the "alpha strike" mechanic of the old hawken was never enjoyable and I would prefer to avoid this(preference argument). Increased fuel consumption in air has been mentioned elsewhere to increase the risk(equally?). Other more subtle changes might be reducing/increasing the air acceleration and max air speed for some mechs.

 

I see a number of comments about increasing fuel consumption for air dodges/movement but what other attributes are safe to tweak?

 

~Tech & Incinerator~

Weapon attributes:

Damage per shot

shots per second (never to continuous; x times per second)

heat generation

overheat

heat capacity

scaling with heat

range (damage falloff, damage cutoff)

accuracy

 

Mech attributes:

run & boost speed, acceleration (ground vs air)
fuel consumption (ground vs air)
fuel
fuel regeneration
hit points

 

What is the real problem with tech and incinerator? Keep in mind the attributes above(or unmentioned) when describing your opinion. What are the roles of the tech and incinerator? Healer and glass cannon?

 

I do not have a solid understanding on the tech and incinerator so I will offer no opinion as what I might consider overpowered may just be a lack of knowledge/experience.

 

Hope this helps,

bluebaron201

Edited by bluebaron201, 23 March 2015 - 03:02 PM.

[IareDave]

A good player can land shots against ground targets, as well as targets in the air. If a good player can land shots against targets on the ground, but cannot hit them reliably in the air - then you just found your weakness.

When I first joined Omni i exclusively played the heat scout and could land all of my shots on ground targets but flustered as soon as mechs(typically A classes but some Bs) took to the sky, my accuracy plummeted. So what did I do? I took my teammates and had them float in the sky until I could land my shots.

The takeaway from this - learn from your mistakes, maximize your strengths, and minimize your weaknesses. above all, practice. Instead of jumping on the very easy to ride anti x mechanic bandwagon.

Edited by IareDave, 23 March 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[Nightfirebolt]

Please keep in mind it's always the people unhappy with the current situation that are the most vocal. Unless you do a poll and let it up for some time you just can't know if the majority is just keeping silent because they like the situation as is. Pleasing a vocal minority without giving it enough time is dangerous.

 

 

This. A thousand times this.

 

Please, PLEASE, new devs - do not assume that every Hawken player is on the forums and speaking their opinion. There are plenty of people who are playing the game, are silent, and completely satisfied with the way things are and would not want things to drastically change.

 

I highly recommend taking a poll. Send an email to every account holder with some pointed questions and see what type of responses you get.

 

As for my own personal opinion on the topic at hand, I don't have any huge problems with the way Tech and Incinerator work. Incinerator is always going to suck at shooting air targets unless the SAARE is redesigned. But this is a good thing. Faster mechs with air compressors can negate the advantage that the Incinerator has vs. ground targets. I've dive bombed a Tech/Incin combo with a zerker many times to great effect. I know it's "rock, paper scissors"-y, but there's always going to be a certain amount of that in any game that has different classes, no matter what. We already have 18 different mechs in the game and I assume that Reloaded will want to add more. At a certain point, diversification becomes specialization. What other direction could they go?

 

Thus, I do not agree that Tech should be removed completely, nor do I agree that Incinerator should have its abilities gutted. Support and suppression classes are fun to play, especially in a team-based game. Unless you exclusively play deathmatch, playing specific roles is par for the course. If we're going to remove the Tech, we may as well remove all of the sniper classes and the Predator while we're at it, and pre-emptively decide not to add any more new mechs to the game after that, too. Because hey, we can't upset the hardcore players who will nitpick about every minor difference the mechs have, right?

 

I'd like to remind people that this game is extremely balanced compared to other games out there. Let's not screw with things too much, okay?

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 23 March 2015 - 03:35 PM.

[crockrocket]

Don't touch the AC. Leave it exactly the same.

The two polar opinions on this are to either entirely remove the AC or to make it a default include on every mech. Including it on every mech would free up space for other internals, making flight even more a part of the game then it already is, so don't do that. Removing it on the other hand would take an element of depth out of the game that a lot of people really enjoy. Okay, so how about a compromise? Well, I for one have yet to hear a suggestion to nerf the AC that wouldn't completely invalidate it, effectively removing it from play. Buff? I know Devotion suggested making it a two slot internal, but I think that would make the AC more prevalent by freeing up the the 3-slot spot for something else (air-dodging orb lord? Nah I'm good).

TL;DR: Community is divided on this, and the best compromise is the current solution.

 

EDIT:

 

 

I highly recommend taking a poll. Send an email to every account holder with some pointed questions and see what type of responses you get.

 

Don't do that, people with more smurfs get more voting power.

Edited by crockrocket, 23 March 2015 - 03:38 PM.

[Nightfirebolt]

 

Don't do that, people with more smurfs get more voting power.

 

That's a good point. But still, the raw data they would collect would be a greater sample than those who actually post on the forums.

[OmegaNull]

Don't touch the AC. Leave it exactly the same.

The two polar opinions on this are to either entirely remove the AC or to make it a default include on every mech. Including it on every mech would free up space for other internals, making flight even more a part of the game then it already is, so don't do that. Removing it on the other hand would take an element of depth out of the game that a lot of people really enjoy. Okay, so how about a compromise? Well, I for one have yet to hear a suggestion to nerf the AC that wouldn't completely invalidate it, effectively removing it from play. Buff? I know Devotion suggested making it a two slot internal, but I think that would make the AC more prevalent by freeing up the the 3-slot spot for something else (air-dodging orb lord? Nah I'm good).

TL;DR: Community is divided on this, and the best compromise is the current solution.

 

EDIT:

 

 

Don't do that, people with more smurfs get more voting power.

You both have very solid points and I do agree that currently with the more feedback given, the best way is to leave AC alone. 

 

Now for incin, I think it needs to be gutted and redone. 

[Nept]

Please keep in mind it's always the people unhappy with the current situation that are the most vocal. Unless you do a poll and let it up for some time you just can't know if the majority is just keeping silent because they like the situation as is. Pleasing a vocal minority without giving it enough time is dangerous.

 

This. A thousand times this.

 

Please, PLEASE, new devs - do not assume that every Hawken player is on the forums and speaking their opinion. There are plenty of people who are playing the game, are silent, and completely satisfied with the way things are and would not want things to drastically change.

 

I'd like to remind people that this game is extremely balanced compared to other games out there. Let's not screw with things too much, okay?

 

These posts highlight my major concern after watching what's unfolded re: AC complaints and CptJosh's response.  The people who are complaining about the AC are the same few (6-8) who constantly complained about the mechanic in the previous forums.  Please do not assume that they constitute a majority perspective.

[Sylhiri]

These posts highlight my major concern after watching what's unfolded re: AC complaints and CptJosh's response.  The people who are complaining about the AC are the same few (6-8) who constantly complained about the mechanic in the previous forums.  Please do not assume that they constitute a majority perspective.

 

Same for the people who support the current AC.

Edited by Sylhiri, 23 March 2015 - 03:57 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

 

2. the tech/incinerator combo - how to make it "more balanced" without removing them

the problem as i see it is not a  balance problem but a tech problem. the incinerator is decently balance on its own. the tech tends to cause a team to bunch up and become a death ball, and stall progress for both sides of pushes. as the fact that mech can heal on their own all ready, and the fact that there are health orbs as well makes the tech redundant on a fundamental level. hawken is fundamentally an arena shooter which doesnt really have a place for medics.

 

as for AC, i like it. hawken is fundamentally a arena shooter which are very fast paced and adds a depth of strategy. TBH i think it should be made as a default feature and not an internal.

[Nept]

Same for the people who support the current AC.

I'd say that it's the same for the people who would like to see the AC made universal.