108 replies to this topic

[Rei]

A good player can land shots against ground targets, as well as targets in the air. If a good player can land shots against targets on the ground, but cannot hit them reliably in the air - then you just found your weakness.

When I first joined Omni i exclusively played the heat scout and could land all of my shots on ground targets but flustered as soon as mechs(typically A classes but some Bs) took to the sky, my accuracy plummeted. So what did I do? I took my teammates and had them float in the sky until I could land my shots.

The takeaway from this - learn from your mistakes, maximize your strengths, and minimize your weaknesses. above all, practice. Instead of jumping on the very easy to ride anti x mechanic bandwagon.

Very much this. I don't like that people will just take the easy route  and complain about a mechanic before learning how to fight against it. There are some things that are flat out broken, but I don't feel like air compressor is one of them. It gives people a nice option which is why it's also 3 slots, where you have to balance between if you want that or full orblord setup.

 

My personal feelings about incin though... Man there are a lot of ways this can go. First off, I think it's a ridiculous mech. It creates a ton of heat on people, has ridiculous DPS, and doesn't overheat ever while doing 3 shots of PPA + large fireball. There are a few ways to go about this and I'll just list some possibilities to make incin actually have to think about heat management?

1. Lower rate of fire on LARGE fireball. Bigger weapon should have longer cooldown? Makes sense. Makes it so you have to stagger PPA shots more too.

2. Increase heat gen of ppa even more? This would let people still have their fast AOE when full on heat with their secondary, but won't let them be as mindless with their primary.

3. Decrease the heat reduction from secondary. Similar idea as the 2nd. It's just to mess with the balance between firing PPA and secondary at the same time. You'll generate more heat than you use if you fire 3 primary + 1 secondary.

 

If incin has to deal with actual heat management, then it will most likely do less DPS overall to maintain a consistent fire. I personally think the large fireball needs a longer cooldown since it's a huge AOE, does good damage, and GENERATES HEAT on people. It absolutely destroys other C classes. If you wanted it to still generate heat on hit, make it less or make it less often because it gets a little crazy sometimes too.

[Zilph]

I want to give my two cents but it's really not my place to speak on a lot of these things, considering I've never used air compressor or been in competitive play.

 

One of my cents for air compressor is that if it stays, it should no longer be this optional thing to purchase, it should just be available to all. I remember when my friend started off, got absolutely destroyed by zerkers swarming in the air. Surprisingly he didn't complain, but rather he was bummed out that he'd have to grind out the HC and ranks to get this ability, all while being destroyed by those who already had it.

 

If everyone has it however, then it's because it stays, and, well... A lot of people here either want it gone or want it in, and we can't please everyone. Not unless we keep it and tweak it to meet a consensus, which I support. How it gets tweaked? What gets changed about it? That's where I stop and say, 'not my place to speak' because I personally haven't usd and and I can't reasonably say what specific advantage it gives over other players.

 

My other cent, not related to air compressor at all, is for weapon balancing. Yeah, things need to be changed on a per mech basis, for example, berserker's weapons getting a 'slight' nerf, but because of its damage boost, still brings the weapons above the normal damage output. It's an example, chill, I don't want to actually speak about changing zerker. But my suggestion would be to also expand the arsenal we have on mechs, not just three primary weapons. Sure ,I don't expect everyone to get a rev gl, or even the seeker... But having the assault rifle on some mechs that get the vulcan, or even that new tech weapon on some of the assault mechs. It would also allow us to have some of the newer weapons (tech burst gun as an example, but any other unique weapons on upcoming mechs) on older mechs, and not just exclusive to the new mechs they come out with. It wouldn't hurt having the breacher, or eoc on other mechs too, I love that weapon.

 

Along with this, secondary weapon choice wouldn't hurt either. No, I don't expect everyone to get a helix torch either, but it wouldn't hurt to have a choice between tow or grenade launcher when applicable, some people have a preference and I can't see that hurting. 'Maybe' hellfire choice on some mechs, but I don't expect that either. 

 

Of course,I don't mean having every choice for every mech, that would be chaos. The last thing i want is to have the only difference between mechs be stats and the ability.

 

Just a suggestion, just food for thought. Good idea? Or... terribad?

[Nept]

Very much this. I don't like that people will just take the easy route  and complain about a mechanic before learning how to fight against it. There are some things that are flat out broken, but I don't feel like air compressor is one of them. It gives people a nice option which is why it's also 3 slots, where you have to balance between if you want that or full orblord setup.

 

My personal feelings about incin though... Man there are a lot of ways this can go.

 

1. Lower rate of fire on LARGE fireball. Bigger weapon should have longer cooldown? Makes sense. Makes it so you have to stagger PPA shots more too.

2. Increase heat gen of ppa even more? This would let people still have their fast AOE when full on heat with their secondary, but won't let them be as mindless with their primary.

3. Decrease the heat reduction from secondary. Similar idea as the 2nd. It's just to mess with the balance between firing PPA and secondary at the same time. You'll generate more heat than you use if you fire 3 primary + 1 secondary.

I think I'd rather see the mech's splash damage heavily feathered.  And perhaps have the splash radius reduced.

Edited by Nept, 23 March 2015 - 04:17 PM.

[Rei]

I think I'd rather see the mech's splash damage heavily feathered.  And perhaps have the splash radius reduced.

That would work too, but the DPS on the PPA + the secondary is nuts. I agree feathering will soften the blow a lot (hue hue I'm so funny), but the total damage is still there as well as the lack of thought on heat management. I'm not familiar enough with BBY or MMA to know how well they synergize with the secondary, because I wouldn't want to make their synergy worse just because of PPA, I would probably adjust PPA and reduce splash.

[Superkamikazee]

The communtiy is clearly divided regarding the AC. Its to the point Reloaded may have to consider play test groups from outside the community to gather any useful information.

Its going to be tough nailing down what works best for Hawken. And the best solution is ultimately going to be the one that alienates the least number of new comers. AC has to be balanced with ground combat, neither can have the advantage, but each should have a situational purpose.

Personally the current AC feels like it has a significant advantage. Fuel isn't taxed enough, and splash damage forgives inaccuracy. Yes tows can be detonated, but that's an added skill requirement vs a tow just smashing the ground and splash damaging. One could call that a skill gap, I call that an advantage to being in the air. The same can be applied to other weapons, unfortunately not all weapons can detonate like the tow, leaving air combat at more of an advantage.

This leads me to conclude one thing, if the AC stays maps need to be reevaluated. The maps we have were never designed around the current meta. The meta has evolved and changed so much meanwhile the maps haven't adjusted accordingly. If air combat is to remain maps need to close lines of sight when air borne, close the air advantage gap a bit with fair level design.

Hopefully that doesn't come off complainy, just trying to share another view on AC Gate.

[crockrocket]

These posts highlight my major concern after watching what's unfolded re: AC complaints and CptJosh's response.  The people who are complaining about the AC are the same few (6-8) who constantly complained about the mechanic in the previous forums.  Please do not assume that they constitute a majority perspective.

 

Same for the people who support the current AC.

 

I don't recall ever making such a post on the old forums...

Point is, this is an issue that goes both ways. The opinions expressed on the forums, ESPECIALLY until new account activation is up, cannot reflect the opinions of the entire Hawken community. The best we can hope for is that they provide enough of an opinion sample for the devs to make a well informed decision.

Definitely consider over the coming week that there is an entire segment of the Hawken population that is unable to voice their opinions as of yet; arguably the segment who's opinion should be heard the loudest. What new players think is vitally important for player retention and the game's survival.

[Sylhiri]

I wouldn't care about the hover fighting or the AC if the map cover wasn't an issue. No one has yet coined in the fact you can fly over the majority of cover while before AC it was never an issue due to risk and reward.

 

Maps have been made around the limited amount of air mechanics.

 

Maps are a problem.

 

Maps are also very expensive in both time and money to change.

 

What are you going to do about it.

[Analysis]

I've never been a fan of AC since that internal gives a massive advantage against anyone not using it.

 

With AC you can dodge out of lifts and peak around corners without much danger. The lift balance issue could be partially addressed by making the jump pads directional instead of having a predetermined path. The corner poking I'm talking about is when a user can float around a corner and quickly retreat safely with an air dodge. A user without AC must take a gamble by floating or remain at ground level to see around the corner(both of which are easier to predict). Against splash based weapons floating also gives a advantage over being on the ground. If a splash based weapon misses you while your in the air it has nothing to hit, but if you are on the ground the weapon can hit nearby terrain. I'm not sure if this is true of all mechs or not, but for some mechs at least mech acceleration and speed appears to be higher in the air compared to the ground. If you also consider that a mech playing on the ground is largely playing on a 2 degree plane and an air mech is playing in a 3 degree plan it is also easy to another advantage. 

 

Suggestion for AC

-Consume more fuel

-increase time between dodges. If a ground dodge is 1 second make an air dodge 1.8-2 seconds.

[OmegaNull]

I've never been a fan of AC since that internal gives a massive advantage against anyone not using it.

 

With AC you can dodge out of lifts and peak around corners without much danger. The lift balance issue could be partially addressed by making the jump pads directional instead of having a predetermined path. The corner poking I'm talking about is when a user can float around a corner and quickly retreat safely with an air dodge. A user without AC must take a gamble by floating or remain at ground level to see around the corner(both of which are easier to predict). Against splash based weapons floating also gives a advantage over being on the ground. If a splash based weapon misses you while your in the air it has nothing to hit, but if you are on the ground the weapon can hit nearby terrain. I'm not sure if this is true of all mechs or not, but for some mechs at least mech acceleration and speed appears to be higher in the air compared to the ground. If you also consider that a mech playing on the ground is largely playing on a 2 degree plane and an air mech is playing in a 3 degree plan it is also easy to another advantage. 

 

Suggestion for AC

-Consume more fuel

-increase time between dodges. If a ground dodge is 1 second make an air dodge 1.8-2 seconds.

I think that would be a bad idea. Trying to make the dodge in the air different than on the ground? That just sounds.. absurd to me! If anything, at least make it consume a little more fuel and make it more accessible. Other than that, leave it alone. 

[XPloyt]

 

I actually run health orbs and related internals on my main Scout and heavily rely on it. 

What would be this "advanced orb meta" people can not utilise?

 

I think that's tongue-and-cheek for "Not many have really bothered to maximize the potential of the orbs during gameplay" - couple the orbs from both item usage(which includes other players' orbs laying about the field) and players' death-orbs with the extractor internal to perpetuate a cycle of more deaths via the means of exceptional accuracy and juking your opponent into mistakes with the Berserker; that's Dave. 

 

This predicates upon Merl's post claiming the orb's superiority over the ac (granted they are fundamentally different): I agree that orbs trump the air compressor, when health is the bigger component of the game as it stands, over maneuverability; there's an item for it, can be acquired from a killed player - friend or foe - a weapon and an internal designed to replenish it, and an internal to acquire it faster from the field. In the low ttk meta, survivability is more desirable and advantageous with plenty-o-health to go around as opposed to landing a hit or juking damage with an air-dodge, even if it means securing a kill or surviving the now-eradicated threat because your boost is now low, continuing the vulnerability.

 

While I find the idea of utilizing orbs on the field the best way possible not only entertaining, I believe it should have a place to stay in the games meta,  however I've never cared to explore it and find it a bit cheesy in thinking that it's a legit tactic - I'm talking Dave-specific. I can't talk down on that strategy because it's one I never explored. Is it right to say that it's a legit tactic only because it seems overpowering when only one(or some) of the best players use it, or is there something off with the orbs and Berserker? Obviously, the topics of these are both being explored, so I digress, but I figured I would at least try to enlighten individuals who may not be aware of that particular use of the orbs, and hopefully remain objective about it when considering balancing issues.

 

Edited by XPloyt, 23 March 2015 - 05:10 PM.

[OmegaNull]

That does bring up abother subject. I really am burned over orb lording. It is something that needs to be nerfed a bit. 

[OdinTheWise]

i think an item that could, when deployed, could force mechs to the ground and stay on the ground for a limited time. 

[OmegaNull]

That would be pretty cool! I like it!

[OdinTheWise]

 

-increase time between dodges. If a ground dodge is 1 second make an air dodge 1.8-2 seconds.

this is a very poor idea

[comic_sans]

i think an item that could, when deployed, could force mechs to the ground and stay on the ground for a limited time. 

 

I like this idea a lot.  As devotion pointed out in his thread, we're sorely lacking on crowd control items, and this is a unique way to bring some balance without removing or directly nerfing AC.  Plus, it lets people who are devoted to ground play swat the people who use the thing they don't like right out of the sky, making it satisfying as well.  I would say just to be obvious that jumping and ground boosting should not be affected, though that could be another item in its own right.  Make a thread, will you?

 

I think this would work on a pub level, but unless orblording is made less effective in some respect, I don't think it will affect the comp meta at all.  I'm not very involved in comp play, but I play with people who are a good deal (almost exclusively just because skill/mmr range) and I have a fair idea of what it's like.  I think managing the playstyle proven to be most effective by the best would also be necessary at the same time instead of considering nerfing the second best thing alone.

Edited by comic_sans, 23 March 2015 - 05:30 PM.

[crockrocket]

i think an item that could, when deployed, could force mechs to the ground and stay on the ground for a limited time. 

 

Do I sense a new life ahead for the ISM?

 

EDIT: That was mostly a joke, I'm not sure that pucks would be the best embodiment for this mechanic. Something more like an emp or ism pulse that originates at your mech when used might be more effective.

Edited by crockrocket, 23 March 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[Analysis]

I think that would be a bad idea. Trying to make the dodge in the air different than on the ground? That just sounds.. absurd to me! If anything, at least make it consume a little more fuel and make it more accessible. Other than that, leave it alone. 

The point is an air dodge is worth more than a ground dodge.

[OdinTheWise]

The point is an air dodge is worth more than a ground dodge.

not true

[OmegaNull]

The point is an air dodge is worth more than a ground dodge.

That is not true by any means. Both dodges are valuable and have a place, the only issue that I really think here is making it accessible earlier. 

[teeth_03]

My 2 cents:

 

Give everyone the AC

 

Change the air mechanics so its a give-take kind of thing. Give your mech the ability to be harder to hit, but make it so it takes more damage in the air, and maybe the weapons recharge slower (more power goes to the thrusters to keep you in the air right?)

[ZombieBiscuit]

Stop complaining and trying to nerf everything that makes this game playable for me at 260+ms.

 

You're going to make this game even harder D:

 

 

 

Incin is fine.

 

Tech is fine.

 

Air compressor is fine.

 

Everything is fine.

Edited by Z?mbieBiscuit, 23 March 2015 - 05:56 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

My 2 cents:

 

Give everyone the AC

 

Change the air mechanics so its a give-take kind of thing. Give your mech the ability to be harder to hit, but make it so it takes more damage in the air, and maybe the weapons recharge slower (more power goes to the thrusters to keep you in the air right?)

nice ideas but too hard to implement. my personal opinion is to direct counter to arial combat if you cant fight them in the air. i personally dont care to use such a thing because i dont have a problem with the AC, but an item to counter air combat is an elegant solution in my oppion

[deidarall]

I'll just.....

 

Put this here....

 

 

 

Now, on to the serious matter what I think of this Hawken, this game-play is great, but it is more float-y than the early days. In part due to the air dodge mechanics put in place when Ascension hit.  

 

This is not really directly a issue with air dodge in terms of the concept, but the air dodge, and the air dynamics in general now quite simply make hawken flow in a very very different way than it did before. While air dodge does arguably effect balance in a negative manner with weapons such as Rev Gl, my main issue with it is that it makes game-play feel a bit more spongy than I remember hawken originally being. Of course I admit it has been a long while sense I have played old hawken, but I think the focus on foot work without the extra dimension of people using air dodge floating tactics, and how this effects duels and other aspects of aim and game play sort of leads to this feeling. Moving in the air feels a lot like running in Tf2, or skiing in tribes but not quite so robust or interesting,  and you can sort of tell in my view that it was added on later, with weapons like EOC that are very clearly meant for a game focused on ground work, as well as knowing that the ground work system feels more direct, and is more robust.  

 

I would suggest trying to make ground work more central for most mechs, and having the air dodge tricks somehow limited, I personally think it hurts how abrasive the game should feel in a odd way, in old Hawken that abrasive jerky feeling made it feel much more interesting, nearly every shooter ever is float-y and flows, they own that, and it works, but Hawken was/is full of jerk dodging and therefore it danced to it's own tune it flowed in it's own way with choices being moment to moment, and still does, but the tune is blunted now with the constant way air dodge killer bees just float around in some cases, and it just feels awkward at points. 

 

There is also the aspect of fuel management which is less important than it used to be, which I dislike, dodging used to take up fuel, which made players more thoughtful in my view, and made game play more abrasive and tense which I enjoyed. I would suggest bringing that back as apposed to allowing dodge to be used in the manner that it is. These two ideas in my view are the most important things. Hawken needs to feel a bit more like it did before in my view, cause that was when it was most unlike any other shooter I played and it hooked me like a fish hooked to fried chicken on a summer Sunday morning. 

 

 

 

 

Moving on, I would like to talk about abilities lightly. Let's start with heavy mechs, these abilities are in Hawkens history the hardest to get right the old guard devs never cracked it, with only Vanguards turret mode being really good at doing something interesting and unique.  Signs that Turret mode was being left behind were it's removal from Gren, and the fact that the Incen lacks turret mode and instead has a replacement. 

 

Quite simply I disagree with it's removal from gren, I would suggest instead making turret mode for gren more support based, with it perhaps giving a limited AOE buff to mechs or filling out some other support role, it might also be a good idea to actually consider a idea where grens turret mode lets him walk at normal speed without dodge but provides a sort of buff to his firing depending on what primary he is using. Perhaps the Vulcan can fire mini exploding bullets and people down. 

 

The point is please consider turret mode carefully for gren, I do suggest adding it back as a support focus, also consider something like that for brawler turret mode, some or of AOE healing perhaps.

 

Turret mode and heavy mechs overall should focus on pretty much being the core of a team with the most powerful supporting powers. Try to embody that.

 

Otherwise Light mechs have a good set of powers focused around more solo play, and med mechs are set up pretty well as well. It is really just heavy mech powers that are often horrid, mainly with the original three in Brawler, Rocketeer, and Gren, those are your problems in getting the turret mode powers right.

 

 

Lastly, there is the splash of secondary weapons, I sort of miss the old TOW and Nade a bit, and while I do not like the idea of them being as extreme as the game was in it's first day of open beta, I still wish the splash was a bit larger, with the better hold the game has over feathering the splash damage I think it might not be bad to bring the slow firing big TOW back, with a slightly more fast firing but bigger splash nade as well. What do you guys think about this.

 

Ciao- I am a tree

 

I love you all 

 

 

 

 

Top expand on my ideas regarding air dynamics, what it allows is for mechs to keep proper distance without foot work. It also allows retreat or pushing with constant damage without foot work. There are also many cases where the limited directional options of foot work are just not going to cut to compared to wind work. 

 

What this means is that the foot work based duels are not going to happen as much. Also wind work lets players care less about keeping proper distance overall, as rockateers and other mechs use it very simply as a easy way to keep distance. It is very powerful in making the game derpy and spongy feeling as players sort of just use simple wind work to keep distance or decide distance, and  this is before adding in stuff like air dodge, and other options. It is annoying to fight just cause it is so awkward to be looking up at these mechs, and they have the ability to constantly adjust while you move forward with boost, able to fire down at you while are trying to gain ground. That is why it is such a go to, cause it lets you passive decide distance in a very simple not very risky manner, as apposed to boosting which will not allow you to shoot. 

 

I don't really like how simple it is to keep distance with air work, it brings out a passive sustained play style too a fault where everyone plays it safe. 

 

 

Plus I will raise a point. Did we really need a more complex movement system than this? I mean I really miss the tightness of the focused foot work play-styles, and I think the air play is just not going to compare to how that felt. 

 

https://youtu.be/vmXEwcdMwtg?t=13m54s

 

 

 

 

 

Lets not forget heavy mech stuff, turret mode should be master race! For the face anyway.... and only in  some cases.... But ya, I pretty much mantain my view on the air stuff it was not needed. 

[OmegaNull]

DAMMIT TREE!

[shosca]

1. AC is fine by itself, if you're going to change anything remove the pilot level wall so that people can get it early on.

2. See Nept's or Rei's suggestions.

[deidarall]

DAMMIT TREE!

 

 

 

 

I am legit.

 

I love you btw.

[OmegaNull]

[LEmental]

This whole thread is way too early in coming up.  The focus should be more on the new player expirence and getting things to be playable.  As of right now things are balanced enough to have a very interesting meta.

 

The technician is gamebreaking in TDM and that's really about it.  Every team MUST have one, but is that a bad thing?

 

Rapair Charges are top tier in strength.  I don't think anyone will argue against that.  But just because something is really good, doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed.

 

I think drastic changes are a bad idea.

 

If we are going to get into this debait (this early in the transition), we should look at the broader problem, which is the recovory from a fight is very quick.  This makes it so if you have an advantage you need to press it, or your out playing of your opponent is lost.  Repairing like normal is an interesting trade because you can easily be shot at.  Using Rapair Charges doesn't loose you much as you can still haev 1 or 2 other items.  A technician's loss in damage doesn't compair to the healing it is capable of.

 

With air compressor, it takes too much leveling to have access to this game changing item.

 

At any rate, I don't trust OmegaNull in compiling a game design document that reflects the community at large.  Just saying...

[OmegaNull]

I am more than glad to hand it off or take input. 

[OdinTheWise]

This whole thread is way too early in coming up.  The focus should be more on the new player expirence and getting things to be playable.  As of right now things are balanced enough to have a very interesting meta.

 

The technician is gamebreaking in TDM and that's really about it.  Every team MUST have one, but is that a bad thing?

 

Rapair Charges are top tier in strength.  I don't think anyone will argue against that.  But just because something is really good, doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed.

 

I think drastic changes are a bad idea.

 

If we are going to get into this debait (this early in the transition), we should look at the broader problem, which is the recovory from a fight is very quick.  This makes it so if you have an advantage you need to press it, or your out playing of your opponent is lost.  Repairing like normal is an interesting trade because you can easily be shot at.  Using Rapair Charges doesn't loose you much as you can still haev 1 or 2 other items.  A technician's loss in damage doesn't compair to the healing it is capable of.

 

With air compressor, it takes too much leveling to have access to this game changing item.

 

At any rate, I don't trust OmegaNull in compiling a game design document that reflects the community at large.  Just saying...

i agree that it is a little early but its good to discus this now. if we are talking about access, my opinion is to just make it a general game mechanic available to all mechs

and i agree to not trust omeganull to compile a list. 

[OmegaNull]

i agree that it is a little early but its good to discus this now. if we are talking about access, my opinion is to just make it a general game mechanic available to all mechs

and i agree to not trust omeganull to compile a list. 

I wouldn't even trust myself to compile a list. Just got... well um. IDK holding them torch? Can I pass this fuzzy bunny off to someone?

[coldform]

Just my two cents on the topic of dethballs:

 

It has been my experience that the simplest solution to the dethball question is communication.  first, ensuring that players can see a dethball coming, and what to do in the event you are facing one.  at this point, there are clearly defined tactics as to dissolving a dethball.  if in-game communication were more effective, then a team could stand a chance at organizing well enough to accomplish this.

 

On the flipside, if a team is communicative and is forming a dethball of their very own, then the strategy for countering can become much more difficult to execute... which, in my opinion, either enriches the gameplay further, or dissolves it down to chess-like maneuvering becoming paramount to gameplay.

 

I dunno for sure, tho.  This is, after all, an arena shooter.  JM2C.

[ticklemyiguana]

tickle post:

 

Air Compressor:

The air compressor is literally the only thing that gives aerial play any viability whatsoever. When you fly, you aren't using cover systems, or are only using them in a very basic way AND IF YOU ARE you are allowing projectile splash weapons to be more effective, because you are obviously near a wall of some sort. If you're not utilizing cover systems while in air, projectile splash weapons will be less effective against you in 85% of the cases, but you're also not in cover. Take away the air compressor and flying (as opposed to jumping or bunny hopping, which obviously have their place without the AC) is 100% useless.

 

I think in general, aerial play is severely underpowered in every mech except the berserker, which in addition to being the fastest mech in flight, has the highest DPS and health of any A class, plus a DPS boosting ability. If you're concerned about the AC on account of the berserker, don't be. If reloaded has any stake in the AC debate, I'm positive the berserker will be looked at hard. Tweaking aerial play in general is a hard task, and I'm not up to scratch when it comes to discussing aerial balance (given that I never use it). However, the one thing I think absolutely needs to be done is:

Remove the level requirement for AC. As I said, AC practically unlocks aerial play, and allowing users to essentially buy into aerial options without leveling up is likely the greatest Pay to Win aspect of the game.

 

Technician:

Contrary to what some would present as popular belief, the tech is not gamebreaking. It does however give the game a different feel from the game without a technician. The reader can experience this for themselves by simply finding a game without a technician in it.

 

The technician gives another repair option, on top of the four already existing- the repair drones, repair internals, canned orbs, and dropped orbs (and EU collector in siege). This is a lot of heal options for an arena shooter. I don't think the issue is the tech necessarily, so much as it is the ease with which repairing can be accomplished. (Though if we're looking at the tech/incin combo, we can discuss that in the incinerator section.)

 

So, under the title of "Technician" I'd like to look at repair possibilities.

 

A. One could add heat to certain types of heals. Repair torch, canned orbs, you name it. It would lessen the heal's effectiveness in combat, and the rate of heat transfer could be tweaked to effectiveness.

 

B. The technician's repair could be limited to solely it's ability, albeit with a decreased cooldown. The helix torch, for most of the game, could simply provide a damage reduction bonus to the target - a shield of sorts.

 

C. The repair drone's effectiveness could be nerfed, giving the technician a special place in the game. Such a nerf could be that a repair drone can only get you to 75%, or perhaps is much slower, or takes longer to get in and out of.

 

Any of these, I think, would address a lot of the concerns expressed.

 

(W)Incinerator:

The incinerator has the highest speed for a C mech, is 50 health away from having the highest health in the game, has absurd DPS and burst potential, drains your teammates heat without any thought, gives heat to opponents under fire, and of course, with a little skill, has completely infinite fire.

 

When paired with a technician, the incinerator effectively gains the highest health in the game, as the heat drain aspect allows a permanent heal beam possibility.

 

That's a lot of stuff it has going for it, but I really think some very subtle shifts would bring it in line swiftly. Obviously, suggestion B. for the technician would largely alleviate the wombo combo that is incin/tech.

 

A suggestion that OmegaNull brought up, and I twisted a little dealt with turning the passive heat drain ability into the incin's active ability. This would also address the technician problem somewhat. Press F to drain heat from nearby axes. I think this could be utilized in such a fashion that you hold F to continue draining heat for up to five seconds, and if you reach overheat level, you explosively discharge your heat, ie: the buttstomp.

 

I've previously toyed with the idea of a reduction in the incinerator's speed and reducing it to an artillery vehicle, but truthfully I'd like to keep that the zone of the grenadier. Perhaps we should consider reducing its health to 700 or 725.

DO NOT remove the infinite fire aspect. Though this is a big contributor to the incin's OPness, it also makes it very unique and helps solidify it's position in a pilot's arsenal. Doing things like nerfing DPS a tad, or taking some of the other suggestions, could help relegate the incin to the support role it was always intended to fulfill.

 

Orb Meta:

This must change. It is the least fun component of the game, both for the user, and the victim, and at high tiers of play, is entirely necessary to stay relevant. I don't want a single one of those things to be the case in this game, ever.

 

A. The obvious. Reduce the canned orb's capacity to 60 in order to bring it in line with the detonator.

 

B. Same as suggestion A. for technician. Add heat to the orbs, so that they are less effective in combat.

 

C. Give the orbs an AOE. If the enemy is close enough, they will be healed at a set percentage as well.

 

D. (Credit to LEmental) Disallow the ability to be healed from multiple orbs at a time. The rate of healing from several orbs, especially when coupled with the extractor, can easily surpass that of a tech's green beam. I haven't run any numbers on that, but unless there's some sort of cap that I'm unaware of, it's algebraically valid.

 

 

 

Thank you for the consideration.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 23 March 2015 - 07:52 PM.

[crockrocket]

tickle post:

 

Air Compressor:

The air compressor is literally the only thing that gives aerial play any viability whatsoever. When you fly, you aren't using cover systems, or are only using them in a very basic way AND IF YOU ARE you are allowing projectile splash weapons to be more effective, because you are obviously near a wall of some sort. If you're not utilizing cover systems while in air, projectile splash weapons will be less effective against you in 85% of the cases, but you're also not in cover. Take away the air compressor and flying (as opposed to jumping or bunny hopping, which obviously have their place without the AC) is 100% useless.

 

I think in general, aerial play is severely underpowered in every mech except the berserker, which in addition to being the fastest mech in flight, has the highest DPS and health of any A class, plus a DPS boosting ability. If you're concerned about the AC on account of the berserker, don't be. If reloaded has any stake in the AC debate, I'm positive the berserker will be looked at hard. Tweaking aerial play in general is a hard task, and I'm not up to scratch when it terms to discussing aerial balance (given that I never use it). However, the one thing I think absolutely needs to be done is:

Remove the level requirement for AC. As I said, AC practically unlocks aerial play, and allowing users to essentially buy into aerial options without leveling up is likely the greatest Pay to Win aspect of the game.

I think you're spot on about AC, although I still wouldn't be opposed to an air countering item as earlier opposed in this thread. And, as much as I'd hate to see my beloved zerker nerfed, I'll admit that it's worth consideration. That being said, I really hope it doesn't have to come down to a zerker nerf.

[OmegaNull]

tickle post:

 

Air Compressor:

The air compressor is literally the only thing that gives aerial play any viability whatsoever. When you fly, you aren't using cover systems, or are only using them in a very basic way AND IF YOU ARE you are allowing projectile splash weapons to be more effective, because you are obviously near a wall of some sort. If you're not utilizing cover systems while in air, projectile splash weapons will be less effective against you in 85% of the cases, but you're also not in cover. Take away the air compressor and flying (as opposed to jumping or bunny hopping, which obviously have their place without the AC) is 100% useless.

 

I think in general, aerial play is severely underpowered in every mech except the berserker, which in addition to being the fastest mech in flight, has the highest DPS and health of any A class, plus a DPS boosting ability. If you're concerned about the AC on account of the berserker, don't be. If reloaded has any stake in the AC debate, I'm positive the berserker will be looked at hard. Tweaking aerial play in general is a hard task, and I'm not up to scratch when it terms to discussing aerial balance (given that I never use it). However, the one thing I think absolutely needs to be done is:

Remove the level requirement for AC. As I said, AC practically unlocks aerial play, and allowing users to essentially buy into aerial options without leveling up is likely the greatest Pay to Win aspect of the game.

 

Technician:

Contrary to what some would present as popular belief, the tech is not gamebreaking. It does however give the game a different feel from the game without a technician. The reader can experience this for themselves by simply finding a game without a technician in it.

 

The technician gives another repair option, on top of the four already existing- the repair drones, repair internals, canned orbs, and dropped orbs (and EU collector in siege). This is a lot of heal options for an arena shooter. I don't think the issue is the tech necessarily, so much as it is the ease with which repairing can be accomplished. (Though if we're looking at the tech/incin combo, we can discuss that in the incinerator section.)

 

So, under the title of "Technician" I'd like to look at repair possibilities.

 

A. One could add heat to certain types of heals. Repair torch, canned orbs, you name it. It would lessen the heal's effectiveness in combat, and the rate of heat transfer could be tweaked to effectiveness.

 

B. The technician's repair could be limited to solely it's ability, albeit with a decreased cooldown. The helix torch, for most of the game, could simply provide a damage reduction bonus to the target - a shield of sorts.

 

C. The repair drone's effectiveness could be nerfed, giving the technician a special place in the game. Such a nerf could be that a repair drone can only get you to 75%, or perhaps is much slower, or takes longer to get in and out of.

 

Any of these, I think, would address a lot of the concerns expressed.

 

(W)Incinerator:

The incinerator has the highest speed for a C mech, is 50 health away from having the highest health in the game, has absurd DPS and burst potential, drains your teammates heat without any thought, gives heat to opponents under fire, and of course, with a little skill, has completely infinite fire.

 

When paired with a technician, the incinerator effectively gains the highest health in the game, as the heat drain aspect allows a permanent heal beam possibility.

 

That's a lot of stuff it has going for it, but I really think some very subtle shifts would bring it in line swiftly. Obviously, suggestion B. for the technician would largely alleviate the wombo combo that is incin/tech.

 

A suggestion that OmegaNull brought up, and I twisted a little dealt with turning the passive heat drain ability into the incin's active ability. This would also address the technician problem somewhat. Press F to drain heat from nearby axes. I think this could be utilized in such a fashion that you hold F to continue draining heat for up to five seconds, and if you reach overheat level, you explosively discharge your heat, ie: the buttstomp.

 

I've previously toyed with the idea of a reduction in the incinerator's speed and reducing it to an artillery vehicle, but truthfully I'd like to keep that the zone of the grenadier. Perhaps we should consider reducing its health to 700 or 725.

DO NOT remove the infinite fire aspect. Though this is a big contributor to the incin's OPness, it also makes it very unique and helps solidify it's position in a pilot's arsenal. Doing things like nerfing DPS a tad, or taking some of the other suggestions, could help relegate the incin to the support role it was always intended to fulfill.

 

Orb Meta:

This must change. It is the least fun component of the game, both for the user, and the victim, and at high tiers of play, is entirely necessary to stay relevant. I don't want a single one of those things to be the case in this game, ever.

 

A. The obvious. Reduce the canned orb's capacity to 60 in order to bring it in line with the detonator.

 

B. Same as suggestion A. for technician. Add heat to the orbs, so that they are less effective in combat.

 

C. Give the orbs an AOE. If the enemy is close enough, they will be healed at a set percentage as well.

 

 

 

Thank you for the consideration.

 

 

I think you're spot on about AC, although I still wouldn't be opposed to an air countering item as earlier opposed in this thread. And, as much as I'd hate to see my beloved zerker nerfed, I'll admit that it's worth consideration. That being said, I really hope it doesn't have to come down to a zerker nerf.

Agreed

[LEmental]

stuff

I agree.  I'm not sure your solutions are right, but I feel you are on the right track.

ADD: Multiple orbs shouldn't be able to heal a single mech.

 

Would you agree that every TDM team should run a technician?  And if yes, we must consider if that is a problem.

[ticklemyiguana]

I agree.  I'm not sure your solutions are right, but I feel you are on the right track.

ADD: Multiple orbs shouldn't be able to heal a single mech.

 

Would you agree that every TDM team should run a technician?  And if yes, we must consider if that is a problem.

As a significant force multiplier, any ORGANIZED team should always have a technician. The tech also gives an organizational advantage to a disorganized team, so unless everyone's playing A and B classes, the answer is the same.

[crockrocket]

I agree.  I'm not sure your solutions are right, but I feel you are on the right track.

ADD: Multiple orbs shouldn't be able to heal a single mech.

 

Would you agree that every TDM team should run a technician?  And if yes, we must consider if that is a problem.

 

There are more than 6 mechs, so I would argue that if any single mech is a win condition in pubs (not organized, competitive play), then that mech is OP. I do not believe the tech is necessary to win in pubs. Of course, that is not the only factor as to whether or not it's OP (I don't think it is).

[FlamingBeaker]

Maybe I'm making an oversimplified observation here, but haven't we seen this same tug-of-war over and over re: TTK, view from newish player vs view from the top, Ascension vs non-Ascension? When you're new to the game (or playing with HIGH PING / a different country), high TTK, hellfires, lack of Air Compressors, Technicians, weapon spread (think Flak shotgun spread vs Hawkins-RPR or Sabot), and high dodge cooldowns all seem great. As you become more experienced (or are talented enough for competitive play) these things become impediments - high TTK leads to deathballs and slugfests  while low TTK places a premium on accuracy and speed, hellfires are derided as 'skillfires', Air Compressors become nearly essential, certain items (scanner) and mechs (Tech/ Tech + C-Class) are avoided as unbalanced or unfair, etc.

 

At the risk of fracturing the player base, is everyone sure we don't need a few new gametypes with their own rules? Skill tiers that limit what mechs/internals/"Rules of Game Physics" apply? It's a Unreal Engine game, and a neat thing about UT was the Mutators (e.g. Low Grav, Instagib, others). Sure would be nice if there were things like  "High TTK mod", "No Techs Mod", "Classic Pre-Ascension Rules Mod",etc.

 

Yes, I know. First things first - keep the game up and running. Later, we'd have to rewrite the game from scratch. But instead, how about a gametype or two that brings back some of the 'old' stuff or rules for those who want it? Or limits the mechs or maps you can choose from, or new maps with more aerial platforms to use that AC for? Or a gametype for high ping players or guests from halfway around the world instead of x miles from USEast?

 

 

 

 

TL;DR : 

 

We're all saying "this thing is broken", or "that thing is is fine, leave it alone".  

What if the real problem is that we're not being accomodating enough for both sides? Aren't we trying to attract more players of all skill levels and tastes?

Edited by FlamingBeaker, 23 March 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[TheVulong]

I think that would be a bad idea. Trying to make the dodge in the air different than on the ground? That just sounds.. absurd to me! If anything, at least make it consume a little more fuel and make it more accessible. Other than that, leave it alone. 

I'd say increasing the air dodge coldown is a great idea - it would make you put a little bit more thought into where and how you move while in the air.