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Get what I mean? XD
weapon raise delay after boosting
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Started by
?FTD? eXeon
, Mar 24 2015 03:23 AM
539 replies to this topic
#401
Posted 28 April 2015 - 11:13 PM
Grollourdo
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#402
Posted 28 April 2015 - 11:19 PM
?FTD? eXeon
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I think the delay should stay ... Its a negative to being fast....
If we ask to remove it it think it would be like if we asked to be able to walk around and shoot while in repair mode....
There are already 4 negatives applied to you WHILE boosting, Why do you need to negatively impact a player after hes stopped boosting? Why don't all the negatives of boosting extend after hes stopped boosting instead of just one? I'll answer them for you
edit: fuzzy bunny memegenerator, what happened to her holding goosebumps :(
Edited by Exeon, 28 April 2015 - 11:19 PM.
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Fix The Delay
#403
Posted 28 April 2015 - 11:27 PM
Xacius
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I think the delay should stay ... Its a negative to being fast....
If we ask to remove it it think it would be like if we asked to be able to walk around and shoot while in repair mode....
no
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#404
Posted 28 April 2015 - 11:46 PM
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Oh OK ... XD lol
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#405
Posted 28 April 2015 - 11:48 PM
Grollourdo
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But yeah my point of view you take a risk by boosting...
That's all XD
My opinions XD feel free to flame me XD lawl
That's all XD
My opinions XD feel free to flame me XD lawl
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#406
Posted 28 April 2015 - 11:50 PM
Xacius
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But yeah my point of view you take a risk by boosting...
Boosting is risky enough as it is. Boosting causes you to generate a radar signature, and you lose the ability to shoot weapons.
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#407
Posted 28 April 2015 - 11:52 PM
ticklemyiguana
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Spoiler
#408
Posted 29 April 2015 - 12:06 AM
Grollourdo
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Lawl spam... XD
You guys got a point tho XD its very true...
You guys got a point tho XD its very true...
Edited by Grollourdo, 29 April 2015 - 12:07 AM.
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#409
Posted 29 April 2015 - 12:54 AM
?FTD? eXeon
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89,196 A's in that waaaaay..........please tickle.....
That video is definitely a great example of how strong defensive play is
Edited by (DuckTheFelay) Exeon, 29 April 2015 - 12:55 AM.
Fix The Delay
#410
Posted 29 April 2015 - 12:56 AM
Panzermanathod
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I want to know, outside of one on one, how would lack of delay make the game less defensive?
I mean, in a normal mech on mech battle, defensive maneuvers would be, I dunno, necessary, right?
As for a group going against another group... I heard someone say it would help in pushing. How? If the enemy sees you, chances are you don't want to boost into enemy fire and/or leave your team. If you are flanking, boosting will give you away.
If a group of enemies are huddled up somewhere and the game essentially becomes a shoot out, what would no delay really accomplish? One would still use cover whenever the can, either by running or boosting. Even then you're trying not to take too much damage.
Really, what constitutes this game as being too defensive? I mean, you already have Turret Mode being considered a joke by higher players, Despite being a wide open area a lot of players hate Bunker for it's size and lack of cover. You have healing and people running to places for cover but when you get right down to it, in a score based game you really don't want to give your opponent points if you can help it, nor do you want to spend time waiting to respond if you have to hold an area.
The game has no back dash. Fleeing is a ticket to get yourself shot in the back.
Someone tell me how this game is too defensive.
Edit: Also I just realized there was a video. It's 5 AM and I need sleep.
Edited by Panzermanathod, 29 April 2015 - 12:57 AM.
#411
Posted 29 April 2015 - 01:27 AM
Xacius
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"I want to know, outside of one on one, how would lack of delay make the game less defensive?
I mean, in a normal mech on mech battle, defensive maneuvers would be, I dunno, necessary, right?
As for a group going against another group... I heard someone say it would help in pushing. How? If the enemy sees you, chances are you don't want to boost into enemy fire and/or leave your team. If you are flanking, boosting will give you away."
The delay bypass added a lot to both defensive and offensive play. Players on the defensive could openly engage and maneuver while defending, and players on the offensive could press up, maneuver, and fire more frequently while pushing. Because we had more tools to work with, we didn't have to depend on cornerplay nearly as much. The game is currently too defensive, as explained below, and the delay bypass could at least give offensive players something more to work with.
"If a group of enemies are huddled up somewhere and the game essentially becomes a shoot out, what would no delay really accomplish? One would still use cover whenever the can, either by running or boosting. Even then you're trying not to take too much damage."
You'd have less of an incentive to run, imo. If the enemy can boost after you and fire at you while you try to escape, you're often better off fighting than running. If the enemy has to wait 500ms after every boost before they can fire, they have to slow down and wait before they can shoot, making it even easier for you to escape.
"Really, what constitutes this game as being too defensive? I mean, you already have Turret Mode being considered a joke by higher players, Despite being a wide open area a lot of players hate Bunker for it's size and lack of cover."
- Nearly omniscient radar.
- Remote-detonation splash weaponry that can nullify an enemy's approach before they even round the corner.
- Repair orb meta that favors standing still over maneuvering, as maneuvering would move you off of the orb(s).
- The actual mechanism by which mechs maneuver and increase their speed disables their weapons.
- All mechs have a dodge.
- The majority of items are defensively-oriented. Scanner, Radar Jammer, Shields, Barricades, Repair Charges, and even EMPs. Offensive items like the detonator and HE charge pale in comparison.
- All mechs can hold C and repair, thereby restoring their health. Run -> repair. Back to 100% strength.
So, yeah. Take your pick, lol.
Turret mode is another issue, and even Bunker has a considerable amount of cover. Dem hills.
"You have healing and people running to places for cover but when you get right down to it, in a score based game you really don't want to give your opponent points if you can help it, nor do you want to spend time waiting to respond if you have to hold an area.
The game has no back dash. Fleeing is a ticket to get yourself shot in the back."
Except, in order to chase, the user has to boost, which disables their weapons.
Edited by Xacius, 29 April 2015 - 01:37 AM.
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#412
Posted 29 April 2015 - 01:32 AM
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True
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#413
Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:21 AM
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IZ THT Y U GOT REKT EARLEAR?
Nobody can compete against such devilishly handsome players, isn't that an established fact by now?
#414
Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:34 AM
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I'm not saying Bunker has no cover. I'm saying that there are people who hate Bunker because, in part, of "little cover". I'm fine with Bunker myself.
And also... honestly a good balance still needs to be worked on, but I disagree, personally, with the idea that Hawken needs to be overly offensive.
Get rid of Turret mode, nerf radar, nerf orb lording (which I admittedly agree with), remove raise delay for more combat options, get rid of Jammer, nerf the tech, murder the tech, corner play isn't that good, nerf healing, get rid of healing, nerf the orbs, Last Eco is terrible because of choke points, buff A Class HP...
It's like some of you just want purely aggressive play more rewarded all the while wanting defensive options to go down.
#415
Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:21 AM
AsianJoyKiller
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Because the game ALREADY HEAVILY FAVORS DEFENSE.It's like some of you just want purely aggressive play more rewarded all the while wanting defensive options to go down.
Are you, for some reason, under the impression that offensive and defensive gameplay are anywhere near equally balanced right now?
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#416
Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:29 AM
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Are you, for some reason, under the impression that offensive and defensive gameplay are anywhere near equally balanced right now?
And also... honestly a good balance still needs to be worked on, but I disagree, personally, with the idea that Hawken needs to be overly offensive.
Wut?
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#417
Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:44 AM
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It's like some of you just want purely aggressive play more rewarded all the while wanting defensive options to go down.
It's more that we want defensive play brought into line with offensive play because good players are tired of playing against other good players in the currently kinda boring fashion that the meta demands. If you want to win, you have to do the most effective thing, and right now the most effective thing is both well-defined and really cheesy, and some of us remember when that cheese's effectiveness was greatly reduced and the thing we find fun about the game, which is its plethora of movement options, was stronger.
I feel it important to say that one of the main goals of any player of any game should be to become skilled at it, so balancing for those that understand all aspects of the game should, in my mind, be favored over balance for all levels since everyone will ostensibly become some degree of skilled, enough to take advantage of their greater understanding and define a greater space between skilled and inexperienced.
Basically, when the weapon raise delay was not working as intended, it was a great deal more fun for all the vocal players in this thread, me included. The concepts of exploiting the glitch or the perceived divide between players that knew and players that didn't are irrelevant; the point is that the play that was experienced by those that knew was just plain more enjoyable, and we're trying to explain why. Those that did play without the delay also had to learn about it at some point, which means we did experience the game without at least long enough to form an opinion. It is worth noting that, almost unanimously, those that recognized and utilized the delay-bypass are in favor of it, while those that did not actually experience the free-wheeling fun it provided are against.
I feel like the only purpose of all this repetition is saying the concept in a way that is understandable, so excuse me if all this has been heard before; I'm trying to find the wording that gives us common ground and agreement.
Edited by comic_sans, 29 April 2015 - 09:49 AM.
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#418
Posted 29 April 2015 - 10:10 AM
?FTD? eXeon
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And also... honestly a good balance still needs to be worked on, but I disagree, personally, with the idea that Hawken needs to be overly offensive.
Get rid of Turret mode, nerf radar, nerf orb lording (which I admittedly agree with), remove raise delay for more combat options, get rid of Jammer, nerf the tech, murder the tech, corner play isn't that good, nerf healing, get rid of healing, nerf the orbs, Last Eco is terrible because of choke points, buff A Class HP...
It's like some of you just want purely aggressive play more rewarded all the while wanting defensive options to go down.
I dont know why I'm doing this again, I know its futile but, free bump =).
Who suggested that hawken should be overly defensive? You cant take every suggestion made on the forum that adds aggression and assume everyone who wants one of them wants any of the others.Admittedly I woudl like to see turret mode removed, radar slightly nerfed, orbs lording made less effective(especially multiple orbs at once), and the raise delay removed.
No one has suggested defensive options go down, reduced in effectiveness maybe @orb lording. And no one is trying to make the game all about aggression, we just want to be able to be aggressive without being crippled which as comic explained, forces you to play a very specific way unless you're insane.
Fix The Delay
#419
Posted 29 April 2015 - 10:13 AM
AsianJoyKiller
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Wut?
It is a simple question, based on the tone of your post which implied that offensive and defensive options are nearly equal, if not already in favor of offense. I want an explicit answer so I don't have to try and interpret your vague, nebulous ideas about where balance is.
Do you believe that offensive and defensive balance are currently equal? Yes or no.
EDIT: Also, the addition of more offensive options does not necessitate the reduction of defensive options. That is fallacious logic.
Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 29 April 2015 - 10:14 AM.
#420
Posted 29 April 2015 - 10:22 AM
Panzermanathod
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The concepts of exploiting the glitch or the perceived divide between players that knew and players that didn't are irrelevant; the point is that the play that was experienced by those that knew was just plain more enjoyable, and we're trying to explain why.
(((I stated before that the bug exploit and outright delay removal are not exactly the same. No delay at all is doing more than the exploit did. This adds ground movement capability so I wouldn't call it irrelevant.)))
It is worth noting that, almost unanimously, those that recognized and utilized the delay-bypass are in favor of it, while those that did not actually experience the free-wheeling fun it provided are against.
(((And some people liked free movement in the N64 version of Resident Evil 2. It doesn't mean I see that as an improvement for the game, just that it removes some of the identity of the game by giving it an option the game wasn't built around. And please stop saying that I'm against it purely because I didn't experience it. I'm not saying no delay is outright terrible, I've only said that the game is fine with a delay.)))
I feel like the only purpose of all this repetition is saying the concept in a way that is understandable, so excuse me if all this has been heard before; I'm trying to find the wording that gives us common ground and agreement.
(((I may not understand all the nuances no delay will bring (although, again, no delay and bug exploit aren't exactly the same due to what can be done. And given that such a delay removal would be openly known and open more options than the exploit, those that did play with the exploit in an older version of the game (or not) would have more relatable experience ), but I understand the bulk of the reasoning behind the delay removal.
I just don't agree with some of it. )))
Who suggested that hawken should be overly defensive?
(((do you mean offensive?)))
You cant take every suggestion made on the forum that adds aggression and assume everyone who wants one of them wants any of the others.
(((No, but I can see that a lot of the major complaints *are* for lowering defensive options)))
No one has suggested defensive options go down,
(((You mean like Turret mode?
But, okay, I'll concede that the issue is more lowering defensive effectiveness.)))
we just want to be able to be aggressive without being crippled which as comic explained, forces you to play a very specific way unless you're insane.
(((What "specific" way? Just so we're clear. Honest question.)))
It is a simple question, based on the tone of your post which implied that offensive and defensive options are nearly equal, if not already in favor of offense. I want an explicit answer so I don't have to try and interpret your vague, nebulous ideas about where balance is.
(((I gave you an explicit answer. I gave it to you twice.)))
Do you believe that offensive and defensive balance are currently equal? Yes or no.
(((No)))
EDIT: Also, the addition of more offensive options does not necessitate the reduction of defensive options. That is fallacious logic.
(((Was that to me or in general?)))
Edited by Panzermanathod, 29 April 2015 - 10:23 AM.
#421
Posted 29 April 2015 - 10:25 AM
IareDave
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Aggression is still king imo. Setting the tempo in matches forces them to play your game. The issue for me is chasing targets who know how to kite. It is difficult to get the takedown on someone kiting, especially in duel scenarios, because of this sluggish delay.
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#422
Posted 29 April 2015 - 10:37 AM
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Also, I think it needs to be said that those of us in favor of the removal are because it already was a proven effective and balanced buff, not because it might be.
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#423
Posted 29 April 2015 - 11:15 AM
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Aggression is still king imo. Setting the tempo in matches forces them to play your game. The issue for me is chasing targets who know how to kite. It is difficult to get the takedown on someone kiting, especially in duel scenarios, because of this sluggish delay.
Being aggressive does not mean you set the tempo and it most certainly does not mean you choose the location of the battle. There are many ways of doing that from a defensive position and more often than not that is what most players do because its easier to do due to defensive benefits.
#424
Posted 29 April 2015 - 11:34 AM
Superkamikazee
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You're correct on that front, kind of. I believe what AJK is arguing is that you don't know how significant the gameplay changes are.
Anyone with average processing capabilities can understand that the delay is going to effect gameplay, especially considering the fact that we've spelled it out numerous times already. Lol.
The significance of the delay on gameplay is pretty big, and to argue against it without knowing exactly what the significance is, let alone its degree of severity, is pointless.
I fully understand the extent of the delay's removal will have on combat. I'm simply not in favor of that change, and several previous mechanic changes.
Not sure what you're getting at, and why you feel people don't understand how gameplay will change. Maybe some people just aren't in favor of the game play style you favor, or feel is best for Hawken. You're in favor for this change, similarily as you were for #increasethespeed, #ACstandard, because you prefer a faster paced, hyper responsive Hawken. I personally prefer Hawken something a bit different. If Hawken is supposed to be this twitchy-esque arena thing, then delay removal makes sense. What hawken should be, play like, and what makes a mech game is purely a matter of opinion.
Anyyyyyyyywayzz, I'm not a huge fan of Hawkens current pace / meta, a few particulars actually. It's decent enough where I can enjoy it for the most part, but it's not ideally what I'm looking for. Problem is Hawken is the closest thing to what I'm looking for in a mech FPS, so I play it. A lot actually, I'm a huge sucker for mechs, even if they feel like twitchy tin can action figures.
LOL.
Edited by Superkamikazee, 29 April 2015 - 11:43 AM.
No crew
#425
Posted 29 April 2015 - 11:42 AM
IareDave
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Being aggressive does not mean you set the tempo and it most certainly does not mean you choose the location of the battle. There are many ways of doing that from a defensive position and more often than not that is what most players do because its easier to do due to defensive benefits.
Perhaps your level of aggression in the game isn't good enough to set the tempo but I speak from personal experience. Example: Test arena, I push hard in mid and pin my opponent in cover using TOWs giving me opportunity to take higher ground. You can play defensive all you want but then you'd be greeted by splash damage.
EDIT: Kinda like those heat duels we had aye Leon 
Edited by IareDave, 29 April 2015 - 11:49 AM.
#426
Posted 29 April 2015 - 11:58 AM
Panzermanathod
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#427
Posted 29 April 2015 - 12:21 PM
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If and when the time allows, maybe the devs (if they believe this is a big enough issue, haven't heard anything from them on this subject as of yet) can remove the delay for some kind of trial period, see how it plays out with the entire community and then make a decision on whether to keep it, maybe increase it a bit or reinstall it again. Whichever seems to work best.
Personally, I don't care which way it goes as long as the game plays the same way for everyone. I'm sure I can adapt to which ever method may be implemented. And if this forum community issue on this topic is ever resolved, I'd like to see a giant lock placed on this thread. Too much animosity going on here.
#HawkenForLife
First of all, you garbage tier sock merchant, I said most of us.
You Norwegian fart market.
#428
Posted 29 April 2015 - 12:26 PM
CraftyDus
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If and when the time allows, maybe the devs (if they believe this is a big enough issue, haven't heard anything from them on this subject as of yet) can remove the delay for some kind of trial period, see how it plays out with the entire community and then make a decision on whether to keep it, maybe increase it a bit or reinstall it again. Whichever seems to work best.
Personally, I don't care which way it goes as long as the game plays the same way for everyone. I'm sure I can adapt to which ever method may be implemented. And if this forum community issue on this topic is ever resolved, I'd like to see a giant lock placed on this thread. Too much animosity going on here.
We've already had the trial period. It was good. It is now sorely missed.
EOC Raider, Bolt Pred, Rev Gl Gren, EOC Infil, All the Reapers, Father, Expert in Guitar Kung Fu, and Founder of TPG Hawken
#429
Posted 29 April 2015 - 12:52 PM
Panzermanathod
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We've already had the trial period. It was good. It is now sorely missed.
There's new players now, and the delay exploit was a while back. A trial (and not an exploit) would be good.
Also, maybe I'm crazy, but I just don't see the jump exploit and full delay removal as the same thing. It's like Street Fighter Alpha 3, and saying that X-ism has the same blocking capabilities as V and A-ism despite the fact that in X-ism you cannot block in the air.
#430
Posted 29 April 2015 - 01:26 PM
raging_squirrel
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We've already had the trial period. It was good. It is now sorely missed.
Has I understand it, that wasn't a trial period. It was a bug some players became aware of and exploited it. The prior devs then fixed it back as they originally intended it to work.
#HawkenForLife
First of all, you garbage tier sock merchant, I said most of us.
You Norwegian fart market.
#431
Posted 29 April 2015 - 01:43 PM
CraftyDus
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Has I understand it, that wasn't a trial period. It was a bug some players became aware of and exploited it. The prior devs then fixed it back as they originally intended it to work.
No.
Including the delay after boosting was motivated purely for aesthetics.
How many times does that need to be simply explained?
Not to "fix a bug"
Not to "remove an exploit"
But because somebody didn't like the way it matched the animation.
Many players consider this very short-sighted and clumsy.
The consequences of this move were largely ignored in it's execution.
I hope eventually if it is explained enough, you guys will understand what is being discussed here.
EOC Raider, Bolt Pred, Rev Gl Gren, EOC Infil, All the Reapers, Father, Expert in Guitar Kung Fu, and Founder of TPG Hawken
#432
Posted 29 April 2015 - 02:15 PM
raging_squirrel
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No.
Including the delay after boosting was motivated purely for aesthetics.
How many times does that need to be simply explained?
Not to "fix a bug"
Not to "remove an exploit"
But because somebody didn't like the way it matched the animation.
Many players consider this very short-sighted and clumsy.
The consequences of this move were largely ignored in it's execution.
I hope eventually if it is explained enough, you guys will understand what is being discussed here.
I never once said anything about animations or that this delay is being viewed as clumsy. For someone that profess to have a vast amount of experience here, you seen very confused over what this actually was.
Please re-read my post, you may then understand what I said, which isn't what you are making me out to say.....seriously dude 
#HawkenForLife
First of all, you garbage tier sock merchant, I said most of us.
You Norwegian fart market.
#433
Posted 29 April 2015 - 02:24 PM
AsianJoyKiller
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I never once said anything about animations or that this delay is being viewed as clumsy. For someone that profess to have a vast amount of experience here, you seen very confused over what this actually was.
Please re-read my post, you may then understand what I said, which isn't what you are making me out to say.....seriously dude
He obviously understood what you said, and you obviously aren't understanding what he said.
#434
Posted 29 April 2015 - 02:32 PM
raging_squirrel
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Please go away !
#HawkenForLife
First of all, you garbage tier sock merchant, I said most of us.
You Norwegian fart market.
#435
Posted 29 April 2015 - 03:05 PM
Xacius
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Please go away !
When in doubt, back out!
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#436
Posted 29 April 2015 - 05:15 PM
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Took me forever to read all this.. Gotta say, Im in favor of delay removal. Id like my L-dodges being useful for more than baiting a TOW
Edited by Lion_ThunderPants, 29 April 2015 - 05:16 PM.
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#437
Posted 29 April 2015 - 05:31 PM
?FTD? eXeon
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So removing the delay has gone from increasing the speed of hawken to making it more twitch-esque of a shooter, please people.
There's new players now, and the delay exploit was a while back. A trial (and not an exploit) would be good.
Also, maybe I'm crazy, but I just don't see the jump exploit and full delay removal as the same thing. It's like Street Fighter Alpha 3, and saying that X-ism has the same blocking capabilities as V and A-ism despite the fact that in X-ism you cannot block in the air.
How is walking after boosting and having no delay any different from boosting then jumping and having no delay exactly? I'm not seeing how that works out in your brain at all
Also, if you want to see how to play as meta as possible, go watch the video in the WAAAAAAAAY link with 89000's A's linked by tickle above. Against equally skilled team the one that pushes without spending many minutes in drawn out dodgeball matches until both teams have drained each other of all the orbs on their team and start to wittle down the enemies health enough to have a strong enough lead that pushing into their defensive position doesn't matter.
I feel like Dave is just trolling at this point, getting the best cover(or higher ground) available on a map seems like the most intelligent defensive thing you can do. Just because you're firing your weapons to suppress your enemy doesn't make what you're doing offensive, just makes you smart. I bet once you got to said cover you stayed there until you acquired a health lead large enough to make you feel safe for pushing, then you became aggressive.
Fix The Delay
#438
Posted 29 April 2015 - 05:48 PM
IareDave
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I feel like Dave is just trolling at this point, getting the best cover(or higher ground) available on a map seems like the most intelligent defensive thing you can do. Just because you're firing your weapons to suppress your enemy doesn't make what you're doing offensive, just makes you smart. I bet once you got to said cover you stayed there until you acquired a health lead large enough to make you feel safe for pushing, then you became aggressive.
It doesn't necessarily matter what you make of it, unless you consider what I do defensive then you'd be wrong. To me playing defensive involves a lot of kiting, burst fire and dip back into cover, and overall letting them come to you. If you ever dueled me you'd know that's the opposite of what I do since my weakness is corner play and my strength is getting them into the open and out dpsing them. In order for me to get them in the open I either take advantage of their misplay, or push them until I get them in a suitable spot - that is what I call aggression.
Edited by IareDave, 29 April 2015 - 05:57 PM.
#439
Posted 29 April 2015 - 06:16 PM
?FTD? eXeon
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It doesn't necessarily matter what you make of it, unless you consider what I do defensive then you'd be wrong. To me playing defensive involves a lot of kiting, burst fire and dip back into cover, and overall letting them come to you. If you ever dueled me you'd know that's the opposite of what I do since my weakness is corner play and my strength is getting them into the open and out dpsing them. In order for me to get them in the open I either take advantage of their misplay, or push them until I get them in a suitable spot - that is what I call aggression.
I agree with how you define offensive and defensive play, my comment was mainly based on your comment of 'taking higher ground'. I assumed you meant you were using the pillars as a defensive position since they make heat cannon far easier to hit on anyone not at equal height or higher usually. How exactly are you forcing players out into the open though, I'd like to use this if you'd explain it, your 'push them until i get them in a suitable spot' statement I mean. I've always been a big fan of open engagements, pushing in on a SS from the opposite side of prosk has to be one of the most fun things possible in this game.
Fix The Delay
#440
Posted 29 April 2015 - 06:25 PM
Panzermanathod
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How is walking after boosting and having no delay any different from boosting then jumping and having no delay exactly? I'm not seeing how that works out in your brain at all
(((I said that the exploit, which was canceling the delay with a jump, and removing the delay altogether are objectively different. I never said anything about walking)))
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