539 replies to this topic

[?FTD? eXeon]

I'm very curious how those of you who were bypassing this delay feel after having played the game as it is now for some time. I havent played much since the change but, I'm not as upset about the gameplay as I was when they first implemented it. I still kind of feel like I'm choosing between survivability and damage when I'm caught into a close quarter situation as an A mech, how have you guys adapted?

 

Anyone elses input is wanted as well

 

out of topic suggestion: Different raise delay for A/B/C mechs

 

late edit: Something JeffMagnum did a bit ago

 

I�m glad to see so much support for getting rid of the weapon raise delay.

 

 

It�s pretty clear that people want it either shortened or gotten rid of entirely. I�d ideally like to see it go, but reducing it would be fine too. The first two responses predictably have a higher average MMR than the third one, but it�s honestly not as large of a gap as I expected.

 

 

 

This info comes from a rather small portion size, you can see more of the info in this thread: https://community.pl...pinions/?p=7115

Edited by Exeon, 29 March 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[TheVulong]

Just make a small hop in the air when you're about to attack - with proper timing you'll keep the momentum and will have your weapons ready to fire right when you need them to.

 

Answering the topic: people adapted just fine and nobody seems to have an issue with it so i'd say leave it as is. There's no need in fixing something that's not broken. 

[PoopSlinger]

I have finally learned not to hop after every boost.

[Kopra]

You can try syncing your weapon reload times to your movement while taking the delay into accord, but you will have to be more crafty with your movement. Works wonders with weapons like Flak.

[Ker4u]

i just started playing more rader after that change ;]

[Xacius]

Just make a small hop in the air when you're about to attack - with proper timing you'll keep the momentum and will have your weapons ready to fire right when you need them to.

 

Answering the topic: people adapted just fine and nobody seems to have an issue with it so i'd say leave it as is. There's no need in fixing something that's not broken. 

 

While I adapted fine, I preferred the game before the weapon raise delay.  Combat felt more fluid back then, primarily because I could transition between boosting and attacking without a noticeable "hitch" every time I stopped boosting.  If it were removed again, I'd probably play a hell of a lot more than I do now.

 

"Answering the topic: people adapted just fine and nobody seems to have an issue with it so i'd say leave it as is. There's no need in fixing something that's not broken. " 

This stagnant mentality hinders progress that would otherwise benefit the game.  Your not having an issue with it does not equate to "nobody seems to have an issue with it." 

 

If given the ability to test a reduced weapon-raise delay, I'd wager that most players would prefer it over the current 500ms delay after every boost.  

Edited by Xacius, 24 March 2015 - 02:14 PM.

[crockrocket]

I was never around before the delay, but I must say reducing or eliminating it sounds awesome

[Crminimal]

It would be a godsend to be honest, the change really broke up the fluidity of the gameplay. Not so much for those that didn't get used to doing it, or don't rely so heavily on movement. It may seem trivial but I really can't get over it. 

[mittens800]

I still think the delay is pointless.  Makes no sense to me.

[Duralumi]

Forcing the weapon raise delay just made A-classes weaker than they already were and removed an element of gameplay that felt incredibly natural, smooth and increased the game's skill ceiling.

It also indirectly buffed sustained weaponry because people had less movement options in the open.

 

 

There's no need in fixing something that's not broken. 

It wasn't broken in the first place.

IIRC they only forced the delay because "it was not intended so it's wrong".

Edited by Duralumi, 24 March 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[OmegaNull]

I barely notice anymore. Though, as Xacius says, I prefered the game before the weapon delay. Allowed for some more... interesting shield play and whatnot. 

[Ker4u]

Forcing the weapon raise delay just made A-classes weaker than they already were and removed an element of gameplay that felt incredibly natural, smooth and increased the game's skill ceiling.

It also indirectly buffed sustained weaponry because people had less movement options in the open.

 and what bothers me the most it buffed defensive play, which was already by far the most effective way to play the game.

Hope devs will at least change  how radar works.

[comic_sans]

I got used to it and don't really miss it, but if it gets removed again I won't miss how it is.

[bacon_avenger]

The reason behind it makes sense to me.

 

You boost, the weapon 'arms' go back.  It takes some time for them to 'snap' back into place after the boost is done.

 

IIRC, vana stated that it was a bug that the hop would negate that delay.  I honestly don't recall if it was there in CB or earlier.

[Nept]

The reason behind it makes sense to me.

 

You boost, the weapon 'arms' go back.  It takes some time for them to 'snap' back into place after the boost is done.

 

IIRC, vana stated that it was a bug that the hop would negate that delay.  I honestly don't recall if it was there in CB or earlier.

YOUR POST IS IRRELEVANT BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT A TOP-TIER PLAYER.

 

#COOLCLIQUE

[Hyginos]

I honestly forgot about it. Probably a result of playing the same patch for months.

 

As for removing/tweaking it: sure why not. Sounds fun.

[Xacius]

The reason behind it makes sense to me.

 

You boost, the weapon 'arms' go back.  It takes some time for them to 'snap' back into place after the boost is done.

 

IIRC, vana stated that it was a bug that the hop would negate that delay.  I honestly don't recall if it was there in CB or earlier.

 

A bug, sure, but it added to gameplay and made transitioning from boosting to firing feel smooth.  Bug or not, if it enhances gameplay then it should be looked at as a potential feature.  

 

That animation can always be tweaked as well.  

Edited by Xacius, 24 March 2015 - 07:41 PM.

[TheVulong]

"Answering the topic: people adapted just fine and nobody seems to have an issue with it so i'd say leave it as is. There's no need in fixing something that's not broken. " 

This stagnant mentality hinders progress that would otherwise benefit the game.  

What kind of progress are you talking about? Do you want the game to be even faster? If so, i'd suggest leaving it alone and checking the new UT that's being developed right now, it should give you everything you want Hawken to be so desperately. 

 

 

Forcing the weapon raise delay just made A-classes weaker than they already were and removed an element of gameplay that felt incredibly natural, smooth and increased the game's skill ceiling.

decreased*  Abusing bugs doesn't count for something that requires skill IMO.

[hestoned]

if there was to be no delay after jumping then there needs to be no delay after any type of movement. otherwise its just a glitch. which it was. like i said before this HEAVILY favors AC/heat/scout more thany any other mech in the game. its like you guys want people to hate scout more than they already do. if you guys really want to you can just press the heal button after boosting to help slightly cancel the weapon raise animation. of course this requires you to not be at full health.

[OdinTheWise]

if the delay goes, cool. if it doesnt go away, it wouldnt effect me that much either at this moment

[Nept]

I think it unnecessarily slows an already (to me) slow game.  Would enjoy seeing the delay decreased.

[Xacius]

if there was to be no delay after jumping then there needs to be no delay after any type of movement. otherwise its just a glitch. which it was. like i said before this HEAVILY favors AC/heat/scout more thany any other mech in the game. its like you guys want people to hate scout more than they already do. if you guys really want to you can just press the heal button after boosting to help slightly cancel the weapon raise animation. of course this requires you to not be at full health.

 

That was fixed a while ago.  You can't bypass the delay anymore through those means.  Even if you could, you'd still be stopping all momentum in the process.  

 

 

What kind of progress are you talking about? Do you want the game to be even faster? If so, i'd suggest leaving it alone and checking the new UT that's being developed right now, it should give you everything you want Hawken to be so desperately. 

 

 

decreased*  Abusing bugs doesn't count for something that requires skill IMO.

 

It's not a matter of speed, but one of fluidity.

 

"decreased*  Abusing bugs doesn't count for something that requires skill IMO."

Does a bug automatically reduce a mechanic to a skillless action?  

 

If so, then the entire SSBM community would like to have a discussion with you.  

Edited by Xacius, 24 March 2015 - 11:47 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I could adjust to left moving me right, and right moving me left with practice. Technically reversed controls aren't broken.
But that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

The issue to me, is that this mechanic makes Hawken feel clunky, and more importantly, unresponsive.

And before someone makes the argument that "of course they're clunky, they're mechs", I'm going to ask you to go play Zone of the Enders. Tell me if those mechs feel clunky. "Clunky" is not a requirement for a mech game. But I digress.

The issue of unresponsiveness is HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE. Generally, not just as gamers, but as humans we absolutely hate losing control of our bodies. This is why when people get stunned in games, they get angry. This is why people don't like games with poor, unresponsive controls. This is why people bang monitors when the computer is unresponsive, as a desperate attempt to gain any sort of control. And the weapons raise delay is a loss of responsiveness. A loss of control.

 

Having control is such a base pleasure that losing it intuitively feels bad. So the question to ask is, "Why are we doing this, and Is it worth making people feel bad for this?"

And if only a certain weapon is gaining an unfair advantage without the delay, then perhaps that weapon needs to be adjusted.

[TheVulong]

It's not a matter of speed, but one of fluidity.

Even then, up untill this point i never saw anyone complaining about how the game became less fluid or less responsive due to the fixed weapon raise delay, neither in the game nor on the forums. You guys are the first.

 

 

Does a bug automatically reduce a mechanic to a skillless action?  

Yes, if this bug gives you serious advantage over people who don't know or refuse to abuse it.

[PoopSlinger]

Unfortunately hestoned has a point. New players would do nothing but despise the scout. Him and clusterbm would be damn near unstoppable. Especially with cluster's 16 ping on east

[Lucier]

Even then, up untill this point i never saw anyone complaining about how the game became less fluid or less responsive due to the fixed weapon raise delay, neither in the game nor on the forums. You guys are the first.

 

Then you must not have visited the forums when the bug was fixed. Some people were rather annoyed by it. I know, because I was one of them.

 

I don't think anyone is asking for the bug to be reintroduced as it was. We just want the post-boost firing delay to be reduced, jump or no jump.

 

#reducethedelay

[TheVulong]

#reducethedelay

Stop with that, would ya?

[Superkamikazee]

I'd like to try the game without the weapon up delay. And while you're at it, nerf radar. I forgot how annoying radar is in this game.

[StubbornPuppet]

For my worthless two cents on the whole question:

 

I'm more inclined towards keeping the weapon firing delay after boosting than having weapons being instantly able to fire the moment a player lets go of the boost button.  To me, it feels like that's the way it "should" be... like how it would really work if these mechs were real.  IF the mechs were still able to fire WHILE boosting, I might feel differently... but they don't.  It just seems to me that having no delay after boosting or landing from a jump is just one more step towards the "twitch shooter" genre that I despise.

 

IF it came down to removing the weapon delay after boosting/landing, I'd sure hope that it comes with a slight decrease in mech speed and a slight increase in time-to-kill.  I do not want to increase the pace of Hawken any more than the last major update.

[StubbornPuppet]

Oh, also, "what's wrong with the radar?"  I just don't have any issues with it and am left wondering after reading this topic.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

For my worthless two cents on the whole question:

 

I'm more inclined towards keeping the weapon firing delay after boosting than having weapons being instantly able to fire the moment a player lets go of the boost button.  To me, it feels like that's the way it "should" be... like how it would really work if these mechs were real.  IF the mechs were still able to fire WHILE boosting, I might feel differently... but they don't.  It just seems to me that having no delay after boosting or landing from a jump is just one more step towards the "twitch shooter" genre that I despise.

 

IF it came down to removing the weapon delay after boosting/landing, I'd sure hope that it comes with a slight decrease in mech speed and a slight increase in time-to-kill.  I do not want to increase the pace of Hawken any more than the last major update.

 

^^^THIS

 

That said, It sounds like we are having a clash between two styles of gaming (WARNING: I AM BEING VERY GENERAL):

 

"Simulators" that strive to be realistic

and

"Fantasy" where gamplay is more important

 

If this were a "Mech Simulator" similar to Panzer Elite or Iron Front: Liberation 1944 then I would argue that the delay of returning the arms after "flight"/boost makes sense. Letting the arms fall back would reduce the stress on the arms and make the mech semi more areodynamic to increase speed/reduce fuel.

 

If this is a "Mech Fantasy" simialr Gundam or Evangelon then who wants/needs a delay? I should be able to shoot while repairing! Forget about over heat! CARRY ALL THE WEAPONS! Etc

 

So it seems Hawken is trying to find its identity between the two schools of thought as an FPS with combatants that are more traditionally suited for spread out play.

 

Thus I don't think you can ever please all the people all the time and it ends up a "creative decision" on the part of the Devs and the question/answer will be debated for eternity...

 

</trippy-ranty-preachy-thing>

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

This dichotomy is actually mentioned here in this thread: https://community.pl...nd-suggestions/

 

4:39 AM - DerMax: That I understand.  But everyone has their vision of "The Ideal Hawken," and everyone will try their best to convince Josh to go that direction.  What we need to do is agree on things before presenting them to Josh.  It is very difficult, but it must be done.  There will be many holy wars along the way.  Some people want Hawken to be a gritty, post-apocalyptic, closer-to-MWO game.  Some want it closer to UT.

[mittens800]

There will be no agreement.

Also tons of people complaining about this when the "bug" was "fixed".

[IareDave]

I was around before the delay was implemented but at the time I was still a new and upcoming player and wasn't involved in the competitive scene. Now, having extensive experience in this game and other fast paced shooters, I would love to have this delay removed to further give the game a faster paced feel. Because lets be honest, the game isn't very fast (and that includes scout). 

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

I guess the question becomes "Is the game intended to be fast paced"? (Really a question only the Devs and PMs and Creative Directors can answer.)

 

If "Yes" then all for removing the delay.

 

If "No" then all for leaving the delay.

If "Dunno" then all for not making any changes till a unified concept and direction is solidified.

[devotion]

Abusing bugs doesn't count for something that requires skill IMO.

gather round, children, while i sing the tale of gunz online

[AsianJoyKiller]

Oh, also, "what's wrong with the radar?"  I just don't have any issues with it and am left wondering after reading this topic.

Radar in Hawken makes you damn near omnicient. It's extremely powerful when you compare it to the radar of many other shooters.

[Xacius]

Yes, if this bug gives you serious advantage over people who don't know or refuse to abuse it.

 

The same argument can be made for people that modify graphics settings, or turn up FOV in the config menu.  

 

By your logic, we should probably remove the remote-det on secondary weapons because people that have knowledge of it possess a distinct advantage over those that don't.  We'd also need to get rid of extra crosshair customization, internals, items, and any other feature that takes time to understand/comprehend.  

 

Bug or not, a feature is a feature.  Once fixed, its implementation should be considered in the event that it added something to the game.  Did you know that the entire "skiing" component of Tribes was originally a bug?  In later iterations of the franchise, the developers took that bug and built the games around it.  Tribes wouldn't be what it is today without that "bug."

 

I'm sick of this "bug==bad" mentality.  All it demonstrates is a lack of higher processing.  

Edited by Xacius, 25 March 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Xacius]

Radar in Hawken makes you damn near omnicient. It's extremely powerful when you compare it to the radar of many other shooters.

 

I ran out of likes for the day.  

[OmegaNull]

I always like bugs, especially the ones that did add gameplay value. Honestly, the "bug" we are talking about was enjoyable. Really did ad a lot of insane movement potential and really wish it was back. 

 

#ReduceTheDelay has begun!