539 replies to this topic

[TheVulong]

Wait, so I can say fuzzy bunny but I can't say s.crub? Well that's bull

Guess it's about time we derail this thread..

[DieselCat]

Reduce the current weapon delay or remove the delay entirely. But either way, please make it so the entire community knows this is a feature everyone is able to use. Not like before where the when ppl that only knew of the glitch (bunny hoop to eliminate the weapon delay) where at an advantage.

 

Make it a known feature that all can use to help create a level playing field.

 

*+

[MomOw]

I would find fluff to remove the weapon delay of primary weapons (a battle tank can fire its minigun on the run but have to be still to shoot its main canon) but I don't think it would be balanced.

[?FTD? eXeon]

Does anyone have a real reason why it would be so bad to completely remove the raise delay? What does it hurt if no one has a delay after boosting? Admittedly I do see reduction as a more logical step but, I don't think I've ever seen a real sound reason behind this terribly clunky delay besides it was intended by the original devs who if my memory serves right related it to call of duty, please correct me if I'm wrong on that last point.

 

I would honestly love to see how the game plays without any raise delay. Some mechs may have to be watched carefully like scout. The game was not that much faster but, you had a lot more of a chance to outplay someone with dodge/boost weaving which has become a lot harder now

[breadeffect]

[TheVulong]

Does anyone have a real reason why it would be so bad to completely remove the raise delay? What does it hurt if no one has a delay after boosting? Admittedly I do see reduction as a more logical step but, I don't think I've ever seen a real sound reason behind this terribly clunky delay besides it was intended by the original devs.

What other reason do you need? Does a dev's word worth nothing to you? If they said it's by design then it's by design. Deal with it.

 

P.S. Yet If you still want another reason, I remember them saying that having no weapon raise delay would make the weapon raise animation look sh*tty and unnatural. 

Edited by TheVulong, 30 March 2015 - 02:32 AM.

[Houruck]

Does anyone have a real reason why it would be so bad to completely remove the raise delay?

Immersion for one. And learning the right timing is a skill you need to master. You guys already forgot when every second thread called the game a CoD with mechs?

Edited by Houruck, 30 March 2015 - 02:46 AM.

[shosca]

"MUH IMMMERRSHUNN!!"

[CrimsonKaim]

Just make a small hop in the air when you're about to attack - with proper timing you'll keep the momentum and will have your weapons ready to fire right when you need them to.

 

Answering the topic: people adapted just fine and nobody seems to have an issue with it so i'd say leave it as is. There's no need in fixing something that's not broken. 

^this

 

 

Keep it as it is, it is not for like 2 seconds and it matches with the visuals.

Before, everyone would hop to fire their weapons instantly. That was simply an exploit and bug using, nothing else. Players got used to a mechanic which was never intendet to exist.

Additionally, insta hop-shots make absolutely no sense, why would your weapons suddenly show in front of you, when you had them just pointing backwards to keep balance so you don't fall on your face while boosting.

The accerleration needed to archieve this would be an endless number of m/s.

 

But as Vulong said, people got adapted and this is, by far, not the major problem in the gamepaly of Hawken.

 

 

Keep it as it is and make no drama out of it.

Edited by FakeName, 30 March 2015 - 04:01 AM.

[?FTD? eXeon]

What other reason do you need? Does a dev's word worth nothing to you? If they said it's by design then it's by design. Deal with it.

 

P.S. Yet If you still want another reason, I remember them saying that having no weapon raise delay would make the weapon raise animation look sh*tty and unnatural. 

No, what a dev thinks matters very little when it comes to how the game feels to play. Because of mech animations is not a good reason to me for a seriously clunky mechanic, I need something that shows there would be a problem if mechs did not have weapon raise delay. By this god awful logic why is there not a grace window to shoot while you first start boosting because the arms have to go down? That logic doesnt sound so good now does it?

Immersion for one. And learning the right timing is a skill you need to master. You guys already forgot when every second thread called the game a CoD with mechs?

Immersion is a fuzzy bunny reason for any mechanic, gameplay should come first. Learning when to shoot is not a reason why theres a raise delay but a clunky hiccup you must deal with because 'reasons'. As to the comments about cod with mechs, most were made by players who didnt even know how to bypass the delay, their comments were likely because of other reasons.

^this

 

 

Keep it as it is, it is not for like 2 seconds and it matches with the visuals.

Before, everyone would hop to fire their weapons instantly. That was simply an exploit and bug using, nothing else. Players got used to a mechanic which was never intendet to exist.

Additionally, insta hop-shots make absolutely no sense, why would your weapons suddenly show in front of you, when you had them just pointing backwards to keep balance so you don't fall on your face while boosting.

The accerleration needed to archieve this would be an endless number of m/s.

 

But as Vulong said, people got adapted and this is, by far, not the major problem in the gamepaly of Hawken.

 

 

Keep it as it is and make no drama out of it.

Just because some used a bug for an advantage doesnt mean you should take it awy from them but,  instead give it to everyone. Skiing from tribes and bunny hopping from other games were bugs iirc, now they're integral parts of some seriously fun FPS. Bugs are not always bad and often lead to more depth in gameplay which in a game thats as shallow as hawken I'd think high skilled players would find more rewarding to play.

 

Can no one give a real reason other than physics, animations, or immersions? Some reason that no delay would be bad

Edited by Exeon, 30 March 2015 - 06:07 AM.

[Fstroke]

How about this? There are more forward movement options than there are retreat options. Mechs have the ability to close distance on their enemies more than abilities to put distance between them.

No fire delay favors close range burst mechs more so than sustained fire weapons, or any mechs that needs to operate at mid to long range.

It makes the concept of having a fire while boosting lockout trivial as some mechs will just be able to circumvent it.

[Ker4u]

How about this? There are more forward movement options than there are retreat options. Mechs have the ability to close distance on their enemies more than abilities to put distance between them.

No fire delay favors close range burst mechs more so than sustained fire weapons, or any mechs that needs to operate at mid to long range.

It makes the concept of having a fire while boosting lockout trivial as some mechs will just be able to circumvent it.

 there are lots of ways to balance out close combat burst mechs having small/no delay if  will become necessary,

but i'm not so sure it is needed because like  FakeName says" assault op".

Edited by Ker4u, 30 March 2015 - 06:26 AM.

[Houruck]

"MUH IMMMERRSHUNN!!"

Immersion was on of the reasons I started playing this game.

 

I know there is a good reason Quake 1 players hated on Quake 2 and its weapon switching delay, spin up and cooldown times. Quake 3 reduced it again and mods like OSP CPMA favoured QuakeWorld like gameplay but Quake 2 still has an active community (especially in Europe).

 

Compare the air control and the weapon delay (especially chaingun and hyperblaster in Q2):

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

In Q1 you can propell someone in the air with a well placed rocket and follow him with your shaft as he flies up because there is no weapon switch delay. Q2 is slower but timing these things makes it more tactical. Got to love a perfectly timed hand grenade kill.

Edited by Houruck, 30 March 2015 - 09:09 AM.

[Fstroke]

there are lots of ways to balance out close combat burst mechs having small/no delay if will become necessary,
but i'm not so sure it is needed because like FakeName says" assault op".

Agree, there are ways to balance it. My point being that if the delay gets removed, there might be other issues that will have to be addressed because of it. If it does get balanced out than whether or not the delay is in the game or not is really trivial, it really becomes a discussion about movement mechanics.

[TheVulong]

No, what a dev thinks matters very little when it comes to how the game feels to play. Because of mech animations is not a good reason to me for a seriously clunky mechanic, I need something that shows there would be a problem if mechs did not have weapon raise delay. 

-First, I doubt that you'll change your mind, regardless of the amount of reasons i'll give you. That has always been the case with you US guys.

-Second, as i've mentioned before, up untill this point nobody has really complained about how clunky the weapon raise is. Because other people, unlike you, understood that this is an intended game mechanic and that's how it should work. 

-Third, you can negate the weapon raise by hopping into the air or dodging to the side, just like before. That way you keep the momentum but also have your weapons ready to fire at the exact time you need them to, if timed properly.

 

P.S. The way i see it, this whole bullsh*ting about the radar being OP, about weapon raise making the game feel clunky and so on is nothing more than you "elite" guys being little princesses that like to run around in their Scouts like headless chickens but don't like being punished for bad decision making. 

[CrimsonKaim]

 

Just because some used a bug for an advantage doesnt mean you should take it awy from them but,  instead give it to everyone. Skiing from tribes and bunny hopping from other games were bugs iirc, now they're integral parts of some seriously fun FPS. Bugs are not always bad and often lead to more depth in gameplay which in a game thats as shallow as hawken I'd think high skilled players would find more rewarding to play.

 

Can no one give a real reason other than physics, animations, or immersions? Some reason that no delay would be bad

 

So you suggest that there should be a ladder for everyone to cilb up to the top of the maps to shoot down everyone from a safe location?

Or how about free weapons choice! Give me back the Flak Infiltrator, or a Breacher Technician.

Ofcourse you would not mind invisible walls to cover you when you will need it and, selfunderstanding, you would not mind if that happens to the enemy as well.

 

You ask for a bug to return and for a mechanic that is simply unlogic and unrealistic.

Let's turn around the spear. Can you give me a reason whic hconnects your gameplay wishes with realism, the design and visuals?

 

This is a serious question, I am really interested in.

[?FTD? eXeon]

How about this? There are more forward movement options than there are retreat options. Mechs have the ability to close distance on their enemies more than abilities to put distance between them.

No fire delay favors close range burst mechs more so than sustained fire weapons, or any mechs that needs to operate at mid to long range.

It makes the concept of having a fire while boosting lockout trivial as some mechs will just be able to circumvent it.

There are no more foward options than there are retreat options, there are exactly the same number for both. No boost delay does make boost/dodge weaving stronger which specifically helps burst weapons, at the moment sustain is king in almost every situation, why buffing burst weapons a little is a bad thing is beyond me. The removal of the delay could be bad but, we played with 10-12 players exploiting the bug and it doesnt play much different from how live is but, aggressive play was a lot less hindered.

 

-First, I doubt that you'll change your mind, regardless of the amount of reasons i'll give you. That has always been the case with you US guys.

-Second, as i've mentioned before, up untill this point nobody has really complained about how clunky the weapon raise is. Because other people, unlike you, understood that this is an intended game mechanic and that's how it should work. 

-Third, you can negate the weapon raise by hopping into the air or dodging to the side, just like before. That way you keep the momentum but also have your weapons ready to fire at the exact time you need them to, if timed properly.

 

P.S. The way i see it, this whole bullsh*ting about the radar being OP, about weapon raise making the game feel clunky and so on is nothing more than you "elite" guys being little princesses that like to run around in their Scouts like headless chickens but don't like being punished for bad decision making. 

You gave me a reason that consisted of because 'bob the dev felt like it should be that way' do you not see how that just sounds like some fuzzy bunny? Your second point is complete BS, the second the raise delay bug was fixed there was a thread up with tons of players complaining about it. You think that the raise delay is all holy and glorious because some dev thought it hsould be in the game not because of any other reason, think for yourself please. You cannot bypass the delay at all through any means, if you let go of boost and jump, dodge, or run you're still waiting .5 seconds to fire.

 

Your last point is just laughable, you seriously have no response to my request for a real reason still so you try and attack the opposing person instead of the opossing point. Its understandable when your arguement is weak to feel upset but to call us princesses is a little rude dont you think?

 

So you suggest that there should be a ladder for everyone to cilb up to the top of the maps to shoot down everyone from a safe location?

Or how about free weapons choice! Give me back the Flak Infiltrator, or a Breacher Technician.

Ofcourse you would not mind invisible walls to cover you when you will need it and, selfunderstanding, you would not mind if that happens to the enemy as well.

 

You ask for a bug to return and for a mechanic that is simply unlogic and unrealistic.

Let's turn around the spear. Can you give me a reason whic hconnects your gameplay wishes with realism, the design and visuals?

 

This is a serious question, I am really interested in.

I'm sorry I didnt clarify that not all bugs should be implemented, there are some that increase the depth(bunny hopping) or make the game more fluid(skiing/raise delay removal) then there are some that completely ruin the game like invisible walls you can hide in. I can give you a reason which connects my gameplay wishes to realism, What fuzzy bunnywit of an engineer is going to design a highly mobile combat unit that cant fire while mobile? The fact that there is a lockout on firing while boosting in itself seems retarded when it comes to realism, if its an issue of balance they could simply add counter weights that shift into place like the arms do.

 

There's still been no real reason as to why there should be a delay besides people feel like it should be there or looks like it should be there.

[CrimsonKaim]

 

 

I'm sorry I didnt clarify that not all bugs should be implemented, there are some that increase the depth(bunny hopping) or make the game more fluid(skiing/raise delay removal) then there are some that completely ruin the game like invisible walls you can hide in. I can give you a reason which connects my gameplay wishes to realism, What fuzzy bunnywit of an engineer is going to design a highly mobile combat unit that cant fire while mobile? The fact that there is a lockout on firing while boosting in itself seems retarded when it comes to realism, if its an issue of balance they could simply add counter weights that shift into place like the arms do.

 

There's still been no real reason as to why there should be a delay besides people feel like it should be there or looks like it should be there.

 

Maybe adding a mechanic whic hallows you to stop boostign (and standign still) instantly with the result that your weapons are ready below 0.1 seconds (still not instantly).

 

E.G. you hit S while holdign shift (shift+s while boosting). Causes a hard break and you are ready to fire.

[Ker4u]

E.G. you hit S while holdign shift (shift+s while boosting). Causes a hard break and you are ready to fire.

 

Shift+s is unrealistic and breaks immersion, i think it should be removed.

Edited by Ker4u, 30 March 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Shift+s is unrealistic and breaks immersion, i think it should be removed.

 

I shift+s all the time! Don't do that :O

[HugeGuts]

Considering everything else about combat is now faster, it makes sense from a consistency standpoint to make the delay faster as well.

 

I don't think it should be removed. I can imagine the arm raise animation would look really janky.

[TheVulong]

You gave me a reason that consisted of because 'bob the dev felt like it should be that way' do you not see how that just sounds like some fuzzy bunny? 

Ok, let me gather all the reasons again, not like they would convince you:

1. Yes, the devs said that feature is intended. Don't know why you disregard that.

2. Complete removal will most likely look goofy as there will be no transition between the time when weapon is raised and when it's held back.

3. There will be less emphasis put on timing that you have to take into consideration when attacking.

 

 

Your second point is complete BS, the second the raise delay bug was fixed there was a thread up with tons of players complaining about it. You think that the raise delay is all holy and glorious because some dev thought it hsould be in the game not because of any other reason, think for yourself please. You cannot bypass the delay at all through any means, if you let go of boost and jump, dodge, or run you're still waiting .5 seconds to fire.

1. Yeah, just like after any other change, people rage about it for a week or so and then let it go. Same was with the fixed weapon raise: people complained for a while, realized that the thing's not that big of a deal and didn't give a single f*ck afterwards.

2. i don't think the weapon raise is "glorious", i just think it should be slightly reduced at best but not completely go away.

3. You cannot bypass the delay but you can keep moving while raising your weapons is what i meant.

 

 

Your last point is just laughable, you seriously have no response to my request for a real reason still so you try and attack the opposing person instead of the opossing point. Its understandable when your arguement is weak to feel upset but to call us princesses is a little rude dont you think?

No, i don't think. I'm fed up with you guys. Gotta let you know.

Edited by TheVulong, 30 March 2015 - 12:40 PM.

[LU0P10]

The game is fine as it is, calm the f*ck down already.

I dunno how someone can say the game is fine as it is... as evidently there has to be something (IMO a lot) wrong when it has so small player base. 

[Niels]

Your last point is just laughable, you seriously have no response to my request for a real reason still so you try and attack the opposing person instead of the opossing point. Its understandable when your arguement is weak to feel upset but to call us princesses is a little rude dont you think?

You dismissed immersion summarily in your previous post, so yeah, I guess he has no good reason. I don't see how ignoring the immersion factor is objective, AT ALL. Truth is, fun is the real metric for many players, for a lot of us both gameplay and immersion matter.

 

And you have yet to show how removing the delay makes a significant difference in gameplay. It seems that past the initial adaptation, not much of value was lost when it was fixed.

 

I'm not even opposed to removing the delay; I think I even voted for it in Jeff's poll. Just saying, your opinion is just as subjective as Vulong's.

[Xacius]

What other reason do you need? Does a dev's word worth nothing to you? If they said it's by design then it's by design. Deal with it.

 

P.S. Yet If you still want another reason, I remember them saying that having no weapon raise delay would make the weapon raise animation look sh*tty and unnatural. 

 

The old developers proved, on numerous occasions, that many of their intentions and implementations made the game worse.  At this point, blindly following their old views is about as stupid as following a suicidal friend off the face of a cliff. 

 

You remember that they gave up on Hawken and went silent for a year, right?  The only reason it's back as because another studio bought the rights to the title.  Lol...

 

Immersion for one. And learning the right timing is a skill you need to master. You guys already forgot when every second thread called the game a CoD with mechs?

 

 

K, so no.  The weapon-raise delay enforces a restriction.  Learning the timing of a restriction is far different than learning the timing of a skill-based mechanic.  Wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee is a great example of a skill-based timing mechanic.  The weapon-raise delay enforces a restriction, and one that takes away from the game at that. 

 

Forcing a 500ms delay after a high-speed maneuvor does not make the game more tactical or skill-based, it simply makes it clunkier. 

 

Note the following video:

http://listenonrepea..._-_WINFILTRATOR

 

If you look carefully, you'll see that I immediately follow up my dodge with a forward boost and a hop.  This video was taken when the weapon-raise bypass was available by jumping. 

 

In the video, I'm outnumbered 3 to 1.  I need to be able to transition rapidly between offense and defense if I'm to both return fire and survive. The weapon-raise bypass allowed players to quickly transition between defensive and offensive states, thereby permitting return-fire amidst defensive combat maneuvors. I'd argue that a rapid transition between offensive and defensive states requires faster thought-processing and emphasizes skill far more than having to wait 500ms after every boost before firing, or "planning things out" ahead of time.  

 

 

 

You dismissed immersion summarily in your previous post, so yeah, I guess he has no good reason. I don't see how ignoring the immersion factor is objective, AT ALL. Truth is, fun is the real metric for many players, for a lot of us both gameplay and immersion matter.

 

And you have yet to show how removing the delay makes a significant difference in gameplay. It seems that past the initial adaptation, not much of value was lost when it was fixed.

 

The main proponents of the #removethedelay campaign were the players that were actively using the bypass mechanic prior to it being fixed.  The best solution would be for the developers to implement a test server with a reduced/removed weapon-raise delay.  That way, everyone could test and provide their opinions on the matter. 

 

I, for one, have demonstrable video footage of the mechanic's usefulness.  Rapid transitioning between defensive and offensive maneuvors is currently hindered by a 500ms delay.  That time is crucial, and currently does nothing but impose an unnecessary, clunky restriction. 

Edited by Xacius, 30 March 2015 - 01:14 PM.

[Hyginos]

I'd argue that a rapid transition between offensive and defensive states requires faster thought-processing and emphasizes skill far more than having to wait 500ms after every boost before firing, or "planning things out" ahead of time.  

 

Allowing the delay to be cancelled increases the maximum number of actions per time and certainly the pace, but I'm not convinced that it actually introduces more skill or thought beyond being aware of it and building muscle memory for it.

 

Removing the delay makes combat easier, if anything, as you would neither have to know of a cancelling mechanic or plan around a delay when evading.

 

That's not to say I don't think the raise delay needs not be changed, I just don't completely agree with your logic.

[Houruck]

In the video, I'm outnumbered 3 to 1.  I need to be able to transition rapidly between offense and defense if I'm to both return fire and survive. The weapon-raise bypass allowed players to quickly transition between defensive and offensive states, thereby permitting return-fire amidst defensive combat maneuvors. I'd argue that a rapid transition between offensive and defensive states requires faster thought-processing and emphasizes skill far more than having to wait 500ms after every boost before firing, or "planning things out" ahead of time.  

What do you mean by defence, dodging? With this video you showed how big of an advantage it was against people unaware of it, nice.

[IareDave]

\

Note the following video:

http://listenonrepea..._-_WINFILTRATOR

 

3/10

[Superkamikazee]

 

 

Note the following video:

http://listenonrepea..._-_WINFILTRATOR

 

 

 

Case in point, that gameplay footage doesn't even look like a mech game at all. What has become of poor Hawken. 

 

I think I've found exactly why concurrent player retention has been so bad, gamers see Hawken as a mech game, they play a bit and all seems well, they move up in MMR to higher skill matches and the game turns into that video. lol

[Xacius]

Allowing the delay to be cancelled increases the maximum number of actions per time and certainly the pace, but I'm not convinced that it actually introduces more skill or thought beyond being aware of it and building muscle memory for it.

 

Removing the delay makes combat easier, if anything, as you would neither have to know of a cancelling mechanic or plan around a delay when evading.

 

That's not to say I don't think the raise delay needs not be changed, I just don't completely agree with your logic.

 

It's not a matter of easier or harder, it's a matter of how combat feels.  IMO, it's certainly more fluid without that delay. 

 

Removing that delay would certainly make combat more interesting.  Players would be able to transition between offense and defense more fluidly, making duels out in the open more than what they are now: i.e. bullet-hose sustained-fire slugfests, where the user with the most health usually wins.  Players should not be penalized so heavily for simply pressing the shift key to boost and mix up movement. 

 

What do you mean by defence, dodging? With this video you showed how big of an advantage it was against people unaware of it, nice.

 

Defense = dodging and/or boosting to avoid fire.  Pretty simple.  That video demonstrated a lot of things.  My superior positioning was the main advantage that I had over those players.  That mechanic simply made positioning/repositioning, as well as returning fire from a defensive standpoint, more skill-intensive and engaging. 

Edited by Xacius, 30 March 2015 - 02:10 PM.

[?FTD? eXeon]

Ok, let me gather all the reasons again, not like they would convince you:

1.1. Yes, the devs said that feature is intended. Don't know why you disregard that.

1.2. Complete removal will most likely look goofy as there will be no transition between the time when weapon is raised and when it's held back.

1.3. There will be less emphasis put on timing that you have to take into consideration when attacking.

 

 

2.1. Yeah, just like after any other change, people rage about it for a week or so and then let it go. Same was with the fixed weapon raise: people complained for a while, realized that the thing's not that big of a deal and didn't give a single f*ck afterwards.

2.2. i don't think the weapon raise is "glorious", i just think it should be slightly reduced at best but not completely go away.

2.3. You cannot bypass the delay but you can keep moving while raising your weapons is what i meant.

 

 

No, i don't think. I'm fed up with you guys. Gotta let you know.

1.1 Do you even know why devs implemented it? I will admit this is almost a valid point but, because Dan the Dev said so isn't a valid reason.

1.2 Animations can be adjusted, this isnt even a real excuse for why we need a raise delay but an effect of it. if there were no raise delay there would be no animation for the arms to raise, :O

1.3 This is not a reason why we need a raise delay but an effect caused by it, think if tribes disabled shooting while skiing or UT disabled shooting .5 seconds after taking a jump pad. No one wants removal of control of their character. The skill increase for removal is far higher than

 

2.X Have you read this thread? Lots of people give a fuzzy bunny, you just want to ignore their opinions, hell go look at my first post, a lot of players want raise delay reduced or removed completely, even you yourself go on to say you want it reduced. Yes, you can move while your weapons raise for .5 seconds, its nice that they give us some control of our mech while we wait to be able to shootoff shooting while you were skiing, lots of fun is had when the control of your character is removed.

 

You dismissed immersion summarily in your previous post, so yeah, I guess he has no good reason. I don't see how ignoring the immersion factor is objective, AT ALL. Truth is, fun is the real metric for many players, for a lot of us both gameplay and immersion matter.

 

And you have yet to show how removing the delay makes a significant difference in gameplay. It seems that past the initial adaptation, not much of value was lost when it was fixed.

 

I'm not even opposed to removing the delay; I think I even voted for it in Jeff's poll. Just saying, your opinion is just as subjective as Vulong's.

I've shown how it would make a significant difference, it allows for more aggressive play and greatly increase the potential to outplay someone through intricate boost/dodge weaving that is currently almost impossible. I dismissed immersion because its a fuzzy bunny excuse and is subjective to his opinion. In my eyes the fact that the weapons arent firable while boosting breaks the immersion for me, if you're fighting a war and your'e designing combat units do you make all their armaments disabled everytime they touch the gas pedal? No, you add counterweights or fix the issue to allow your new combat unit to fire while going forward.

[DM30]

AJK summed up the problem nicely in my opinion: lost control. The current delay doesn't add anything to gameplay, it just robs you of the ability to fight for an arbitrary amount of time.

As it is, if you're caught in a position where rapid maneuvering is necessary to survive (in an open area of a map, for example) those maneuvers help you live a bit longer but you can't fight back while doing so. There's almost no point because if you stop long enough to fire you're taking damage for that span of time where you're powerless. Open conflicts devolve to simple DPS races because of this. Why hamstring yourself with a time window where you're taking damage but can't deal it back when you can just stand and shoot back constantly?

Game mechanics should be designed such that it enables skilled players to push their abilities. When the delay was able to be bypassed higher-skilled players were able to effectively evade and fight back in a single engagement. With the increased delay there's a hard cap. You can evade, or you can shoot back. No matter how proficient you get, eventually you hit that point where the game forces you to pick one or the other. It takes away. It doesn't add anything to the experience.

For those arguing about immersion, getting an immersive "clunky" feel to the mechs shouldn't require clunky mechanics that restrict player abilities. Atmosphere, sound and visual effects offer plenty of opportunities for creating immersion without handicapping what a player can do.

[Fstroke]

There are no more foward options than there are retreat options, there are exactly the same number for both. No boost delay does make boost/dodge weaving stronger which specifically helps burst weapons, at the moment sustain is king in almost every situation, why buffing burst weapons a little is a bad thing is beyond me. The removal of the delay could be bad but, we played with 10-12 players exploiting the bug and it doesnt play much different from how live is but, aggressive play was a lot less hindered.

The lack of a backward boost says otherwise.

And sustained fire/burst fire is as balanced as its ever been. Sustained fire is only really king in open areas, just as it should be, just as the community wanted it.

Edited by Fstroke, 30 March 2015 - 03:42 PM.

[IareDave]

The lack of a backward boost says otherwise.

And sustained fire/burst fire is as balanced as its ever been. Sustained fire is only really king in open areas, just as it should be, just as the community wanted it.

No, sustained is king almost always. You can dash around all you want in your glass cannon scout against an assault but versus a player that can effectively trace your movements then you're doing nothing but delaying the inevitable. This isn't to say burst isnt viable, it's just there ability to effectively corner play doesn't make up for the fact that burst is at a significant disadvantage in an open fights. Sustain is less proficient in corner play than burst, obviously, but do remember nearly every mech has a burst secondary.

[?FTD? eXeon]

The lack of a backward boost says otherwise.

And sustained fire/burst fire is as balanced as its ever been. Sustained fire is only really king in open areas, just as it should be, just as the community wanted it.

Just because you cant see whats behind you does not mean you cannot retreat just as well as you can push. You forget while running from someone the only way for them to keep up with you is by boosting which would give you a signature you can track on your almighty radar, you dont need to see whats behind you to run away.

[Fstroke]

No, sustained is king almost always. You can dash around all you want in your glass cannon scout against an assault but versus a player that can effectively trace your movements then you're doing nothing but delaying the inevitable. This isn't to say burst isnt viable, it's just there ability to effectively corner play doesn't make up for the fact that burst is at a significant disadvantage in an open fights. Sustain is less proficient in corner play than burst, obviously, but do remember nearly every mech has a burst secondary.

Perhaps I misspoke. Those open fights you speak of are where sustained should be winning and corner play is where it should be losing. Before it was balanced, many of the burst weapons were winning the DPS race, as well as their obvious benefits in the corner game.

[Fstroke]

Double post

Edited by Fstroke, 30 March 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Xacius]

Perhaps I misspoke. Those open fights you speak of are where sustained should be winning and corner play is where it should be losing. Before it was balanced, many of the burst weapons were winning the DPS race, as well as their obvious benefits in the corner game.

 

This is because most of the burst weapons had comparable effective DPS to the sustained weapons in addition to their higher initial damage.  

 

Sustained weapons have spread now, but it doesn't bloom and stays constant, making all of them easier to use consistently.  Their dps was fixed and their spread was made constant.  

[Fstroke]

Just because you cant see whats behind you does not mean you cannot retreat just as well as you can push. You forget while running from someone the only way for them to keep up with you is by boosting which would give you a signature you can track on your almighty radar, you dont need to see whats behind you to run away.

That's not what I meant sir. You said there are just as many options to move forward as backward. I said well there is a forward boost but no back boost.

Yes you are right, if you retreat it causes your attacker to have to chase you. That's how its been and we are all comfortable with the 180 and retreat, give your back to get away meta.

Let's present the scenario of maybe a scout pressing on a reaper and the weapon delay does not exist. The scout can continue to close the distance, and have their weapons ready at will, keeping their enemy in their sights, using a hop out of a boost allows it to maintain most of its forward speed, essentially circumventing the fact of a weapon fire lockout. The reaper more comfortable at range, will attempt to keep its distance, but to do this it pretty much has one option and that's turn their back and run. So basically the reaper can't remain engaged with the enemy if it wants to maintain distance.

[Xacius]

Let's present the scenario of maybe a scout pressing on a reaper and the weapon delay does not exist. The scout can continue to close the distance, and have their weapons ready at will, keeping their enemy in their sights, using a hop out of a boost allows it to maintain most of its forward speed, essentially circumventing the fact of a weapon fire lockout. The reaper more comfortable at range, will attempt to keep its distance, but to do this it pretty much has one option and that's turn their back and run. So basically the reaper can't remain engaged with the enemy if it wants to maintain distance.

 

As the scout approaches, every time he's boosting he can't return fire, so he's still at a disadvantage.  If the Reaper is worth their salt, they'll decimate the scout before they even get within viable Flak range (ofc this depends on the starting distance of each, but let's think of half the length of the main frontline bridge for reference).  

 

In the current meta, the time it takes for the Scout to approach, while returning fire, is even higher (due to the 500ms wait after every boost), putting it at even more of a disadvantage than if the delay did not exist.  

Edited by Xacius, 30 March 2015 - 04:59 PM.