539 replies to this topic

[Panzermanathod]

Slower games are not inherently more tactical.

I'm not arguing whether or not slower games are more tactical.

 

I was answering Joykiller's question. And, generally speaking, games that stress tactics are slower. It's been that way for years. That's why people tend to equate tactical games to be slower. I'm not saying that there aren't any fast games that stress tactics (although as someone who has never played UT I will offer no comments as to what tactics the game can have).

[Nept]

As I said,

 

The only reason that slower games are at all associated with tactics is that their skill ceilings are low as balls.  In other words, everyone hits the skill cap much more quickly, and there isn't much difference between players of different ability tiers - certainly not like the differences you'd see in a game like Unreal 2 XMP, UT, or Quake.  As a result, tactics are required at much lower skill tiers than would be seen with most arena shooters (and the upper skill tiers are more populated because they're more easily reached).

 

Which is the actual reason that (I think) people associate slower games with "tactical".

[AsianJoyKiller]

dynasty warriors 8

Hilarious that DW is associated with tactics. That is one of the most mindless hack and slash series I have ever played.

[Panzermanathod]

 

 

Which is the actual reason that (I think) people associate slower games with "tactical".

Well you're wrong for agreeing with me.

 

I win.

 

 

But, yeah, on topic, if there was lowered delay, alright. But eliminated? Ehhh. As I said before, I found the delay to be a mechanic and I never had issue with it. And this is coming from a guy who played a lot of Armored Core.

[Xacius]

Well you're wrong for agreeing with me.

 

I win.

 

 

But, yeah, on topic, if there was lowered delay, alright. But eliminated? Ehhh. As I said before, I found the delay to be a mechanic and I never had issue with it. And this is coming from a guy who played a lot of Armored Core.

 

Yeah, but not having an issue with something isn't a reason to keep that feature in place.  

 

Let's examine the current standing:

Those that prefer the delay, population A, have admitted to actively "not have an issue with it."  

 

Great, so you don't mind that it's here.  However, there exists an entire population B that wants the delay removed.  Therefore, we're at an impasse.  

 

You state that you don't have an issue with the current delay, but would you mind if it was removed or reduced? 

Edited by Xacius, 18 April 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[comic_sans]

Yeah, but not having an issue with something isn't a reason to keep that feature in place.  

 

Let's examine the current standing:

Those that prefer the delay, population A, have admitted to actively "not have an issue with it."  

 

Great, so you don't mind that it's here.  However, there exists an entire population B that wants the delay removed.  Therefore, we're at an impasse.  

 

You state that you don't have an issue with the current delay, but would you mind if it was removed or reduced? 

 

This.  I don't mind so much that it was removed simply because I had a hard time keeping up when it was available, but it was a lot of fun when I was in the zone and capable of utilizing it.  I have no problem with it being in the game or not being in the game, and since it'd buff offensive play, I'd be quite happy with it being re-implemented, plus I've no fear of my cheese being moved and would happily play the slightly different version of the game with the fun goal of mastery in mind.  

 

I might be in the minority, but I really enjoy when this game gets patched and weird changes happen.  I really relish re-asserting my ability by learning and mastering the new systems, and I probably have the most fun doing this out of all my play time.  Like when the incin was released; I was bad at it, but the new thing was fun to learn in the already beloved environment of my favorite game.

 

I also completely agree with thirdeye; I didn't know it was some crazy glitch that only high-tier tryhards used, I just noticed I could do it and knew it was the best way to play offensively, which is what I like.

 

When the distinction comes down to "I don't care" or "I want it", what's to be missed by putting it back in?

Edited by comic_sans, 18 April 2015 - 05:07 PM.

[Nov8tr]

I have been playing games as long as I can remember. Been in computers now for 44 yrs. Been gaming online since 94. I've beta'd 49 games now. I'm 61 and still play. I played Doom since day 1 so long ago. Played the entire series. Hell it was the first game I played online. A BBS with a ISDN connection. I played Unreal since day 1. All of them. UT beta. I played Quake since day 1. All of them. Quake Arena. I use to do 95 out of a 100 headshots. I ruled then. If I had the skill now that I had then I'd own you guys. :D I played Half-Life, still do. I played Tribes including Ascend. I played COD, I played Battlefield. I played the entire MechWarrior series and even beta'd MWO. I've played Hawken since closed beta. I never did get up to the high MMR boys, but I held my own. Some of the people I play with now will tell you there are times my tired old bones remember how. :)

 

My point? I might be old but I do have a little idea about games with skill. It is part of why I originally came to this game. That and the fact there was NOTHING like, Nothing. It was unique. Raw, rough and wild. In my opinion, I'm OK with the delay being eliminated or at minimum reduced. Once again, that is my 2 old pennies worth. Your mileage may vary.

 

*NOTE* Just thought I'd add some of my old game names. Hell you may have played me back then in a different game, lol.

Nov8tr, NoOne, NoBody, Haelis, PeaceOutDude or POD (yeah like the band), I_Come_In_Peace, Insertnamehere or Insert_Name_Here (Till gamesites started making me change it, ROFL.), Duenmar, Rat_In_A_Cage, RageMachine and more. ltr..........

Edited by Nov8tr, 18 April 2015 - 05:18 PM.

[M4st0d0n]

The delay doesn't change the speed of the game.  Please explain how removing the delay would gimp every player with 50+ ping, as you stated earlier.

 

Of course the delay changes the speed of the game. Please note this video :

 

 

As you can see all except one player has ~250 ms ping. I dont even understand why they play the game. If we've both got 250 ms, both low armor, that means if I dodge out of a corner and alphastrike you, even with a 500ms delay, you literaly wont even see why you died. I'll let you do the math with Hawken's "normal"(50-100ms) ping and no delay.

 

I will say this, however: should the delay be reduced, the "jump out of the corner > shoot > air-dodge back into safety" will become even more annoying than it is currently, and it is quite annoying even now.

 

Free damage, no downside.

Edited by M4st0d0n, 18 April 2015 - 06:02 PM.

[?FTD? eXeon]

Of course the delay changes the speed of the game. Please note this video :

 

 

As you can see all except one player has ~250 ms ping. I dont even understand why they play the game. If we've both got 250 ms, both low armor, that means if I dodge out of a corner and alphastrike you, even with a 500ms delay, you wont even see why you died. I'll let you do the math with Hawken's "normal"(50-100ms) ping and no delay.

 

 

Free damage, no downside.

Holy wrong batman. Except your part about not understanding why they play the game, I feel the same way but, its because they love it more than likely. If youve both got low armor and you pop out of a corner you will see what killed you(with or without a 500ms delay), whether your reaction times are quick enough realize someone is boosting on minimap and to account for your delayed keyboard inputs to become game movement is another question. The math of 50-100 ms is the same, are you quick enough to recognize all your surroundings and react appropriately? I'd wager no in your case, sorry.

The downside is your a giant red pimple on the minimap, everyone on the enemy team is doing nothing but watching that minimap waiting for any target to kill and you just gave them one. You also lock yourself out from firing while boosting which is yet another downside to peaking around a corner, if someone were to push you while boosting, they could easily tag you and duck behind cover and you would fire into thin air, you might hit them if youre running full hit scan and have decent reaction times, likely youve already lost the fight at this point though.

Edited by Exeon, 18 April 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

Yeah, but not having an issue with something isn't a reason to keep that feature in place.  

 

You state that you don't have an issue with the current delay, but would you mind if it was removed or reduced? 

 

I'm just starting to get used to the game, having a major change like that will throw me off. I would prefer it to stay the same, and maybe it being reduced would be okay, but removal would throw me off. So, keeping in mind that this is *completely biased and not to be taken seriously*, I would rather it stay the same. Of course, if it does change I'll have to get used to it.

 

You have your reasons for having it removed, and that's fine. Can't fault you over it.

[Xacius]

Of course the delay changes the speed of the game. Please note this video :

 

 

As you can see all except one player has ~250 ms ping. I dont even understand why they play the game. If we've both got 250 ms, both low armor, that means if I dodge out of a corner and alphastrike you, even with a 500ms delay, you literaly wont even see why you died. I'll let you do the math with Hawken's "normal"(50-100ms) ping and no delay.

 

 

Free damage, no downside.

 

 

 

What does that video prove?  He's using a raider, and I didn't see him jump out of boost even once.  If you're inferring that the Raider's ability is a good demonstration of how fast the game would play if the boost delay was removed, you're wrong on that front as well.  The Raider ability increases boost speed by some ludicrous amount, making it faster than the Scout.  

 

The game cannot be balanced around people with high ping.  If it were, we'd be playing with early OB hellfires (autoaim) and every weapon acting like the tech beam, more or less.  

 

That aside, your argument for ping isn't valid.  Let me explain why: 

All mechs dodge faster than they boost.  The current dodge speeds are as follows: 

A's: 46m/s

B's: 41m/s

C's: ? (somewhere around 36-39m/s, not sure exactly)

 

Based on your logic, players that dodge around corners possess a distinct advantage over players with high ping!  We should remove the dodge as well, because it's clearly problematic.  

 

No.  

 

The boost fire delay would make transitioning between boosting and firing more fluid.  We're not changing speeds here.  Think about that for a second.  

 

Again, we can't base design decisions around players with high ping.  It doesn't make for a very exciting game.  

Edited by Xacius, 18 April 2015 - 07:01 PM.

[Xacius]

I'm just starting to get used to the game, having a major change like that will throw me off. I would prefer it to stay the same, and maybe it being reduced would be okay, but removal would throw me off. So, keeping in mind that this is *completely biased and not to be taken seriously*, I would rather it stay the same. Of course, if it does change I'll have to get used to it.

 

You have your reasons for having it removed, and that's fine. Can't fault you over it.

 

Do you think of weapons being immediately available after boosting as a challenge?  I'd find it more accessible, imo.  If you have the Raider, try it out:

1. Activate ability

2. Boost

3. Stop boosting and continue firing.  

 

See how it feels.  

 

The current delay enforces a strange clunkyness that doesn't feel natural.  

[M4st0d0n]

Are you serious? With 250 ping? I was joking but hey let's do the math. Good reaction time could be 50 ms. That's 3 frames assuming you play 60FPS. Add to this turn rate cap and clientside input lag. Then my ping. Then serverside. Then your ping. Then clientside and your reaction time and input lag. Do you know anything about Hawken's servers lag compensation? Oh wait, old devs went down the cliff with that I guess.

 

As for a downside of jump, shoot, AC dodge. You appear on the minimap... ?

Just like when you're shooting, and there's some boom boom noise? Oh, that's risky.

 

Please, no more delay after boosting. And to be fair, no more loosing EOC charge after boosting. No more loosing boosting after boostin. And no radar.

 

Mkay bye.

[Xacius]

Are you serious? With 250 ping? I was joking but hey let's do the math. Good reaction time could be 50 ms. That's 3 frames assuming you play 60FPS. Add to this turn rate cap and clientside input lag. Then my ping. Then serverside. Then your ping. Then clientside and your reaction time and input lag. Do you know anything about Hawken's servers lag compensation? Oh wait, old devs went down the cliff with that I guess.

 

As for a downside of jump, shoot, AC dodge. You appear on the minimap... ?

Just like when you're shooting, and there's some boom boom noise? Oh, that's risky.

 

Please, no more delay after boosting. And to be fair, no more loosing EOC charge after boosting. No more loosing boosting after boostin. And no radar.

 

Mkay bye.

 

Let me preface this with a response to your comment in bold: Do you know anything about anything? 

 

The average human reaction time is 250ms.  With training, it's possible to get that down to around 100ms consistently, but very few people possess such capabilities.  That, however, is beside the point.  You clearly have a misunderstanding as to how servers track and report player movement.  

 

Let me provide you with some insight as to how servers work: 

 

Step 1: You connect to a gameserver.

Step 2: That gameserver tracks your current location, cooldowns, heat, etc, by an exchange of signals between your client and the server.  Most of these variables are simulated on the client, and are sent to the server for verification (this is also how some cheats/hacks work, i.e. by modifying the client-side variables that are sent to the server).   The value that you see (ms) that's reported is the time it takes for a signal to travel full-circle between a client and server.  

 

Now hold on just a minute, Xacius.  You're telling me that when I have a ping of 50ms, I'm only receiving an update every 50ms on my computulator?

Yep! 

 

Golly, does that seem strange.  If that's the case, then why does everything look so smooth? If things was only updated every 50ms, then why doesn't the game look so choppy?

Great question, Xacius! The time in-between is simulated by your client.  Ever gotten disconnected from a game as it's running?  Haven't you ever noticed how all players in the server start walking or moving off in a single direction?  That's your nifty client simulating their next position based on the previous signal received from the server!  This means that if one of the players was walking west, and the server stopped responding, that player would keep walking west (on your client) because that was the last known direction that your client received from the server!  Isn't that swell?

 

This means that, even if you have 250ms, you're going to see that pilot boosting/dodging around the corner.  Your response, however, will be severely delayed, but you'll see them nonetheless.  

Edited by Xacius, 18 April 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

Do you think of weapons being immediately available after boosting as a challenge? 

 

No. Prior to hearing that the delay was something added and not something that was always there I merely thought it was a way to strike a tactical balance between boosting and running. I never found it clunky myself and that's why I don't have any issue with it. It felt natural, at least to me.

 

I mentioned that I'd have to get used to it if it was changed, but only because, as a considerable system change, I need to rework how I use most of my mechs.

 

Also I have a G2 Raider in my garage. I have more than enough Raider time under my belt.

[BaronSaturday]

Maybe it's because I've gotten used to playing MOBAs and their insanely high learning curve when it comes to mechanics, or maybe it's because my shooter experience comes from games like Quake where things like strafe jumping are never explained, but I feel like the game doesn't need to flesh out every little mechanical detail for new players.

I agree with this. To add to it. It doesn't matter how much information you bombard new players with. The more skilled player will win barring luck as a factor.

Also. I like learning the nuances. It's gratifying to go, "ooooooh. Look what I just learned!" To me it is anyway.

[?FTD? eXeon]

No. Prior to hearing that the delay was something added and not something that was always there I merely thought it was a way to strike a tactical balance between boosting and running. I never found it clunky myself and that's why I don't have any issue with it. It felt natural, at least to me.

 

I mentioned that I'd have to get used to it if it was changed, but only because, as a considerable system change, I need to rework how I use most of my mechs.

 

Also I have a G2 Raider in my garage. I have more than enough Raider time under my belt.

The delay was not something added, it was naturally there since the beginning of time, or so the old dev's claimed, iirc please correct me if I'm wrong. You probably don't think its clunky because you likely didn't spend much time playing without the delay if any, judging by your heroku app and previous comments.

Youre adjusting to being able to fire .5 seconds faster after exiting boost, not relearning 30 button combos for mvc3. This is not a very considerable change and you would likely not have to rework the way you use any mech but, it would make dancing a lot easier on everyone.

[Panzermanathod]

You probably won't convince me it's a subjectively "clunky" system considering I've been comfortable with it. I am not using this to say that it shouldn't be removed, nor am I saying that it's objectively not clunky, by the way. At this point I just find it as a difference of opinion.

 

Also, lack of a delay isn't such a small change in the scheme of things. It is changing how many people play the game. And I'm pretty sure the instant it goes away there will be higher level players using it to Boost-shoot-boost others while chasing them (in turn making Raider's skill less useful). It's like Street Fighter Alpha 3 with A-ism and X-ism, the latter's inability to air block changes some aspects of how one uses a character in their approach and defense.

[n3onfx]

The fact that most games that do rely fairly heavily on tactics tend to be slower. You rarely see games that can be described as "High Speed Tactical Action", you know?

 

Did you ever watch competitive RTS? Go watch a korean Starcraft 2 finals and tell me that games that rely on tactics are slow.

[Panzermanathod]

Did you ever watch competitive RTS? Go watch a korean Starcraft 2 finals and tell me that games that rely on tactics are slow.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not slower games are more tactical.

 

I was answering Joykiller's question. And, generally speaking, games that stress tactics are slower. It's been that way for years. That's why people tend to equate tactical games to be slower. I'm not saying that there aren't any fast games that stress tactics (although as someone who has never played UT I will offer no comments as to what tactics the game can have).

[n3onfx]

 

 

I'm just pointing out that "generally games that stress tactics are slower" is not true, there are tactical games that are slow, and some that are fast but I don't see how it is "generally" on the slower side. In fact if you think about the popular titles currently which one could be considered slow and tactical? Mobas are not that slow, Starcraft is pretty damn fast, Counter Strike is very tactical and plays much faster than Hawken (not so much on the positioning side but twitch shooting is a lot more important than in Hawken).

 

If you look on the FPS side you have all the arena shooters that tend to play much faster than everything else, Call of duty and Battlefield that I'd call less tactical than Hawken but rely heavily on twitch-shooting and Counter Strike that is both tactical and fast. What are the tactical and slow shooting games? Mechwarrior and World of Tanks? I still don't see why you say that most of the tactical games are slow.

Edited by n3onfx, 19 April 2015 - 05:05 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

This means that, even if you have 250ms, you're going to see that pilot boosting/dodging around the corner.  Your response, however, will be severely delayed, but you'll see them nonetheless.  

 

Yes that's how clientside prediction works. More or less. Still I consistently hit people dodging behind cover with hellfires. Is it clientside, is it serverside, is it too stronk homing plz nerf? Who knows. Also, Hawken, everyone leads hitscan since 2012. But please keep going, just explain what the delayed response of our little exemple of alphastriking from behind a corner could be. Oh wait you're already dead.

 

So what was the question you asked again?

 

Why removing the delay would gimp 50+ ping players. Well read my answer, read your answer. Peekaboo is strong in this game.

 

Did I say dodge needs to go? No. Did I say this game needs to be balanced around high ping players? No. All of that is pretty much happening in your brain with assumptions. I've been in the stress test yesterday like everyone else who still gives a crap about this game and I hope it will be worth it and Hawken can be as fast and tactical as possible. And hopefully with less cheese and free damage mechanics.

 

The delay was not something added, it was naturally there since the beginning of time, or so the old dev's claimed, iirc please correct me if I'm wrong. You probably don't think its clunky because you likely didn't spend much time playing without the delay if any, judging by your heroku app and previous comments.

Youre adjusting to being able to fire .5 seconds faster after exiting boost, not relearning 30 button combos for mvc3. This is not a very considerable change and you would likely not have to rework the way you use any mech but, it would make dancing a lot easier on everyone.

 

Yup it wont change a thing for me. Will still use EOC and hellfires. The most fun I get out of this game. Sometimes I use SMC too. It's stupidly strong.

 

Combos and timing are good for a game. That's a skill. Why do you want to get rid of it...

[Panzermanathod]

I'm just pointing out that "generally games that stress tactics are slower" is not true, there are tactical games that are slow, and some that are fast but I don't see how it is "generally" on the slower side. In fact if you think about the popular titles currently which one could be considered slow and tactical? Mobas are not that slow, Starcraft is pretty damn fast, Counter Strike is very tactical and plays much faster than Hawken (not so much on the positioning side but twitch shooting is a lot more important than in Hawken).

 

If you look on the FPS side you have all the arena shooters that tend to play much faster than everything else, Call of duty and Battlefield that I'd call less tactical than Hawken but rely heavily on twitch-shooting and Counter Strike that is both tactical and fast. What are the tactical and slow shooting games? Mechwarrior and World of Tanks? I still don't see why you say that most of the tactical games are slow.

 

 

When it comes to FPSs I rarely hear of ones that stress tactics outside of Rainbow Six and SWAT, so I can't really say.

 

And when I say games that stress tactics tend to be slower, I am talking about tactical games in general. Games that require strategy, not just newer titles, but older ones as well. And, again, I said that as an answer to JoyKiller's question as to why people think slower = more tactical. I'm not talking of competitive play, really, just the games in general. I am not saying there aren't many faster games that stress tactics, just that, even if more and more quick tactical games come out, games that are slower and stress tactics and strategy in normal gameplay have been around for such a long time it's simply how it is for some people.

[Xacius]

Yes that's how clientside prediction works. More or less. Still I consistently hit people dodging behind cover with hellfires. Is it clientside, is it serverside, is it too stronk homing plz nerf? Who knows. Also, Hawken, everyone leads hitscan since 2012. But please keep going, just explain what the delayed response of our little exemple of alphastriking from behind a corner could be. Oh wait you're already ded.

 

So what was the question you asked again?

 

Why removing the delay would gimp 50+ ping players. Well read my answer, read your answer. Peekaboo is strong in this game.

 

Did I say dodge needs to go? No. Did I say this game needs to be balanced around high ping players? No. All of that is pretty much happening in your brain with assumptions. I've been in the stress test yesterday like everyone else who still gives a crap about this game and I hope it will be worth it and Hawken can be as fast and tactical as possible. And hopefully with less cheese and free damage mechanics.

 

 

Yup it wont change a thing for me. Will still use EOC and hellfires. The most fun I get out of this game. Sometimes I use SMC too. It's stupidly strong.

 

Combos and timing are good for a game. That's a skill. Why do you want to get rid of it...

 

 

re:Why removing the delay would gimp 50+ ping players. Well read my answer, read your answer. Peekaboo is strong in this game.

I've read your answer.  Consider my inquiry/response:

Are you claiming that a reduced weapon-raise delay would make Peekaboo even stronger in Hawken?  If so, consider the following:  

Having utilized the weapon-raise delay effectively for months before it was removed, I can assure you that it didn't alter Peekaboo very much.  In effect, it encouraged less Peekaboo by giving players more tools to fight out in the open.  When you can immediately respond out of boost, you don't have to sit behind a corner and whittle your enemy down until they're weak enough to be killed in a sustained-fire-slugfest.  You can pursue and actively contest them out in the open because you have the capability to evade their shots and return fire in quick succession.  Did it make you invincible?  fuzzy bunny no.  Your weapons are still deactivated when you boost, so you're essentially trading potential DPS for increased evasion.   Decent players could still predict your movements/utilize air-burst weaponry to put you down.  Additionally, you were limited by fuel.  It's not possible to keep up the dance of dodging/boosting indefinitely, even with a full fuel converter.  Therefore, utilization of the weapon-raise delay in open engagements was risky, in that the player was trading potential DPS for evasion, all while expending fuel that could otherwise have been used to retreat.

 

The main point is that you had more tools to actively engage in combat without cover, with a fair tradeoff to boot.  It was a positive addition to the game, through and through.  

 

Did I say dodge needs to go? No. Did I say this game needs to be balanced around high ping players? No. 

You stated the following in response to the Raider video:

"As you can see all except one player has ~250 ms ping. I dont even understand why they play the game. If we've both got 250 ms, both low armor, that means if I dodge out of a corner and alphastrike you, even with a 500ms delay, you literaly wont even see why you died. I'll let you do the math with Hawken's "normal"(50-100ms) ping and no delay."

 

I'm not sure where you were going with that, but I assumed that you were trying to say that, even if someone was delayed by 500ms, they could dodge from around a corner and fire at you, killing you before you could even see what happened.  I found that rather silly, based on my understanding of how servers work.  Regardless, the delay doesn't change anything in that regard.  Players can shoot immediately after they dodge, delay or no delay.  What's to stop them from dodging out of cover and firing immediately?  

 

Hawken can be as fast and tactical as possible. And hopefully with less cheese and free damage mechanics.

Nothing is free damage.  If anything, holding spacebar and spamming auto-lock weaponry and massive-AOE mines is the closest you can get to free damage in Hawken.  

 

Combos and timing are good for a game. That's a skill. Why do you want to get rid of it...

Yes, combos are good for a game.  Trust me, I played melee competitively for years, and still practice on a semi-competitive level with friends.  Falco DAir2stronk.  The delay, however, does not exemplify "combos" or "skill-based timing."  It's a forced 500ms waiting period after every boost.  Explain to me how that requires skill.  If anything, it'd take more skill to react properly and time your shots around a weapon-raise that responds immediately after every boost.  The dance takes considerably more effort/skill than walking around and dodging occasionally, or boosting in combat and waiting 500ms before you can return fire.

 

There's a distinct difference between timing in a skillful context, i.e. wavedashing, and timing that simply enforces a delay.  The only tactical implication from the current weapon-raise delay is an encouragement of peekaboo and corner-play, rather than an evasion-based pursuit, out of cover, that would otherwise result.  

 

And don't feed me this "the delay makes things more tactical" crap, either.  Let me restate the following: 

utilization of the weapon-raise delay in open engagements was a trade-off.  The player would boost, thereby briefly disabling weapons, and attempt to evade, all while expending fuel that could otherwise have been used to retreat.  

 

With a 500ms delay, there is next to no reason to boost in an open engagement, as you're losing DPS equivalent to the time spent in boost plus an additional 500ms from the unnecessary weapon-raise delay.  That's a huge detriment.  

How does enforcing such a gameplay element stress tactical analysis?  All it does is give you less options to work with.  

Edited by Xacius, 21 April 2015 - 05:35 PM.

[IareDave]

The only thing weapon delay does is dumb down the game into a dps race. You have orbs? You win. You both have orbs? Better hope you don't miss a TOW. You're about to overheat? Boost-dodge a bit until you're ready. The mechanic essentially turns every sustain weapon into a 'point D vulcan', meaning, if you decide to be fancy and boost dodge around with your SMC throwing TOWS then you are simply sacrificing valuable time when the current optimal play is to strafe, dodge when you can, and win the dps.

If I'm in an open engagement against another assault, we both have the same builds, similar skill level, I will win guarnteed if he even thinks about boosting simply because he lost .5s+ of time that could of been used to dps.

[LoC_TR]

What does that video prove?  He's using a raider, and I didn't see him jump out of boost even once.  If you're inferring that the Raider's ability is a good demonstration of how fast the game would play if the boost delay was removed, you're wrong on that front as well.  

Hahaha i didn't boost jump once.. terrible, My aim was trash too. I think I was around 2200 here so I still wouldn't have understood what I was capable of.

[zorin1]

Wow Xacius had a pretty good post.

 

Now that we have physical server and my ping is really low, like 9-14, I have noticed the weapon raise issue.  Since my reflexes are not as fast as you young people, I never really noticed it.  But now, I do.  My MMR has dropped by about 100 because of this.  Or at least, I think this is why it has dropped.  I find myself boosting and trying to fire but my weapon does not do anything.  It has thrown my timing all off now.  And since my MMR has dropped, I have been getting into a lower tier games and the people don't stay together and fight as a team.  So I end up getting killed more because it is always 2 verse 1. 

 

I need Xacius to train me up!!!!

[Silverfire]

-snip-

 

[CrimsonKaim]

The weapon raise delay should stay, especially because of logical realism reasons.
However I would atill listen to him as he has some serious skills and knowledge.

[Xacius]

The weapon raise delay should stay, especially because of logical realism reasons.
However I would atill listen to him as he has some serious skills and knowledge.

How much scrubs could a scrubchuck scrubs if a scrubchuck could chuck scrubs? 

Edited by Xacius, 22 April 2015 - 01:25 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

re:Why removing the delay would gimp 50+ ping players. Well read my answer, read your answer. Peekaboo is strong in this game.

I've read your answer.  Consider my inquiry/response:

Are you claiming that a reduced weapon-raise delay would make Peekaboo even stronger in Hawken?  If so, consider the following:  

Having utilized the weapon-raise delay effectively for months before it was removed, I can assure you that it didn't alter Peekaboo very much.  In effect, it encouraged less Peekaboo by giving players more tools to fight out in the open.  When you can immediately respond out of boost, you don't have to sit behind a corner and whittle your enemy down until they're weak enough to be killed in a sustained-fire-slugfest.  You can pursue and actively contest them out in the open because you have the capability to evade their shots and return fire in quick succession.  Did it make you invincible?  fuzzy bunny no.  Your weapons are still deactivated when you boost, so you're essentially trading potential DPS for increased evasion.   Decent players could still predict your movements/utilize air-burst weaponry to put you down.  Additionally, you were limited by fuel.  It's not possible to keep up the dance of dodging/boosting indefinitely, even with a full fuel converter.  Therefore, utilization of the weapon-raise delay in open engagements was risky, in that the player was trading potential DPS for evasion, all while expending fuel that could otherwise have been used to retreat.

 

The main point is that you had more tools to actively engage in combat without cover, with a fair tradeoff to boot.  It was a positive addition to the game, through and through.  

 

Did I say dodge needs to go? No. Did I say this game needs to be balanced around high ping players? No. 

You stated the following in response to the Raider video:

"As you can see all except one player has ~250 ms ping. I dont even understand why they play the game. If we've both got 250 ms, both low armor, that means if I dodge out of a corner and alphastrike you, even with a 500ms delay, you literaly wont even see why you died. I'll let you do the math with Hawken's "normal"(50-100ms) ping and no delay."

 

I'm not sure where you were going with that, but I assumed that you were trying to say that, even if someone was delayed by 500ms, they could dodge from around a corner and fire at you, killing you before you could even see what happened.  I found that rather silly, based on my understanding of how servers work.  Regardless, the delay doesn't change anything in that regard.  Players can shoot immediately after they dodge, delay or no delay.  What's to stop them from dodging out of cover and firing immediately?  

 

Hawken can be as fast and tactical as possible. And hopefully with less cheese and free damage mechanics.

Nothing is free damage.  If anything, holding spacebar and spamming auto-lock weaponry and massive-AOE mines is the closest you can get to free damage in Hawken.  

 

Combos and timing are good for a game. That's a skill. Why do you want to get rid of it...

Yes, combos are good for a game.  Trust me, I played melee competitively for years, and still practice on a semi-competitive level with friends.  Falco DAir2stronk.  The delay, however, does not exemplify "combos" or "skill-based timing."  It's a forced 500ms waiting period after every boost.  Explain to me how that requires skill.  If anything, it'd take more skill to react properly and time your shots around a weapon-raise that responds immediately after every boost.  The dance takes considerably more effort/skill than walking around and dodging occasionally, or boosting in combat and waiting 500ms before you can return fire.

 

There's a distinct difference between timing in a skillful context, i.e. wavedashing, and timing that simply enforces a delay.  The only tactical implication from the current weapon-raise delay is an encouragement of peekaboo and corner-play, rather than an evasion-based pursuit, out of cover, that would otherwise result.  

 

And don't feed me this "the delay makes things more tactical" crap, either.  Let me restate the following: 

utilization of the weapon-raise delay in open engagements was a trade-off.  The player would boost, thereby briefly disabling weapons, and attempt to evade, all while expending fuel that could otherwise have been used to retreat.  

 

With a 500ms delay, there is next to no reason to boost in an open engagement, as you're losing DPS equivalent to the time spent in boost plus an additional 500ms from the unnecessary weapon-raise delay.  That's a huge detriment.  

How does enforcing such a gameplay element stress tactical analysis?  All it does is give you less options to work with.  

 

Edited wall of text is tedious. Most citations are now out of context. Typical.

 

Of course removing the delay will give an advantage in peekaboo tactics too. It's not because it allows you to pursuit more easily while not being a raider that it wont be even more potent in cornerplays.

 

You play Nintendo with your semi-comp pals, that's cool. Here it's an online shooter. Movement is a technical resource, not just a gameplay feat. So let's just hope they dont keep on going with mayhem servers mk2 lagfest for a standard.

 

And please, just open a new thread to tell us how you feel about EOC and autoaim free damage, plz nerf.

[Daronicus]

My opinions, for what they're worth:  I think at the very least the delay should be severely reduced.  I'd be ok with eliminated entirely, if only to see how it goes.

 

 

Regarding the talk on peekaboo, though:  I honestly don't think the delay affects that sort of play that much.  For the most part, boosting out of cover is a terrible idea because it betrays your position and makes it easy for the opponent to put a TOW where you're about to be.  If you boost at all, you're likely to be boosting back into cover, where you will have time to let your weapons reset before poking your nose out again.  Furthermore, most mechs that you're going to want to peekaboo with have burst weapons, which allow you to fire, boost, wait for weapons to come up, fire, etc. without losing much potential DPS.

 

The only time I ever notice the delay (speaking as a brawler/reaper player) is in-the-open DPS races or knife-fights, where extra mobility and unpredictability in movement are way more important than when you're behind cover.  Against someone with sufficient aiming capabilities, there isn't much I can do except attempt to beat their reaction speeds.  But considering what Xacius just said (reaction speed in skilled players being in the 100-250 ms range), they will always react before I can get my weapons up (500 ms).  That right there is a problem.

 

Also, I think one of the most infuriating things about the delay is how much it punishes chasing.  I'm not sure if it's good or bad for balance that it allows those with a sliver of health to escape more easily, but I do know it's incredibly frustrating.

Edited by Daronicus, 22 April 2015 - 11:50 AM.

[IareDave]

Edited wall of text is tedious.

That editted wall of text gave factual evidence and his personal experience with the topic at hand, and this is your response? Sounds to me like you're running out material... 

 

 

Of course removing the delay will give an advantage in peekaboo tactics too. It's not because it allows you to pursuit more easily while not being a raider that it wont be even more potent in cornerplays.

 

 

 

..Oh wait! You do this thing again where you assume your opinion is fact without any supporting evidence to back up your claim. I learned this cool concept in middle school English class where we would write essays about our favorite poet AND give supporting detail as to why we thought he or she was the greatest. Try it out. 

 

In case you weren't aware sustain is overpowered. Burst mechs are forced to play corners and run away and kite to be effective and even then they still have terrible DPS when compared to smc/ar/vulcan. Removing or lessening the delay will give not only burst mechs, but any type of mech a chance to outwit their opponet even if they are at an HP disadvantage. The game right now is a giant DPS race and if it weren't for TPG rules limiting multiples of certain mechs then the imbalances in hawken comp.  would be even more obvious to the rest of the community. 

Edited by IareDave, 22 April 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[Nept]

Edited wall of text is tedious. Most citations are now out of context. Typical.

 

You play Nintendo with your semi-comp pals, that's cool. Here it's an online shooter. Movement is a technical resource, not just a gameplay feat. So let's just hope they dont keep on going with mayhem servers mk2 lagfest for a standard.

 

You don't get to ignore an entire post which counters your argument under the pretense that it's "tedious".  What's "tedious" is your inability to create a cohesive argument and then discuss it with some civility.

 

So here's something you might understand: You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Signed,

 

The group of players who are much better than you.  At every shooter in existence.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I'd like M4st0d0n to keep posting. For every post he makes, at least 3 high MMR people angrily respond - sometimes with 3x the amount of text. If he's trolling he deserves a blue ribbon. The vigor in this discussion is fantastic.

[Nept]

The problem is that he's not trolling. That quote that Crafty grabbed yesterday explains the situation nicely: 

 

"Stupidity trumps Machiavelli almost every time when you are looking for an explanation." - Robert Foster Bennett

Edited by Nept, 22 April 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

If stupidity limits the conversation, then what's the benefit of writing essay-length rebuttals?

[IareDave]

If stupidity limits the conversation, then what's the benefit of writing essay-length rebuttals?

What good is wisdom if you don't share it?

[Xacius]

What good is wisdom if you don't share it?

Dave getting real up in this fuzzy bunny

[DerMax]

I like this thread. It's fun.