539 replies to this topic

[IareDave]

There are other ways to balance sustain. And your post still doesn't  explain how removing the delay, which the word by definition is to slow something done, won't speed up combat. 

Did I ever say it wouldn't speed up the combat? (hint hint no). Removing the delay is obviously going to speed up the combat, that's an inevitable side effect. Sustain isn't the reason for these changes, removing the delay is an overall improvement to the game. 

[AsianJoyKiller]

One thing I don't get is why opponents of reducing/removing the delay keep making comparisons between high level players and lower skilled players. A high skill player will trash a lower skill player regardless of the delay, and it really doesn't make that huge a difference in how severe the stomping is.

Why are lower skill players not talking about how a reduced/removed delay affects them when facing similarly skilled opponents? Balancing (or debating balance) based on lesser skilled players vs is more skilled players is just insane.

 

So how does a reduced/removed delay significantly and negatively affect gameplay among people who are equally bad at utilizing it to it's full potential?

[Xacius]

 
 
 
Would you prefer us peasants to bow down now and kiss your feet, or later? You guys are really just a bunch elitist little brats, grow the fuzzy bunny up, you're good at a video game, neato. Your word doesn't automatically become some sacred scripture everyone else should worship.
 

There's no weight to the game, and every position you back further removes any weight left to the games mechs. Speed was increased, AC added, TTK lowered, dodge fuel consumption removed, the list goes on. There was some "simminess" before a lot of those changes, mechs took a lot of damage, fuel required more management, AC and speed increases made the feel of the mechs more plasticy (TTK as well).
 

You missed the point. I never said it wasn't an arena shooter, I'm suggesting that all that it will be is an arena shooter with unlimited ammo and overheating. Hawken was first and foremost a mech FPS, that played more like an arena shooter vs what traditionally mech games were expected to be. It was still slow (by todays Hawken standards), mobility was grounded (now it's very similar to COD AW with the AC), and TTK is a joke. There's very little indication that you're piloting a mech besides the turn rate cap, and the HUD. The mechs feel like tin cans, not some lumbering behemoths. Removing the delay will further remove that sense of being in a lumbering machine.
 

So how does boosting into combat not increase the games speed, and increase TTK? Time to engage would be reduced there by shortening engagements, and forget about retreats. I'm of the opinion the games movement speed is too high as it is, any proposals to increase that speed are insane at this point.

 

Well...

 

"Would you prefer us peasants to bow down now and kiss your feet, or later? You guys are really just a bunch elitist little brats, grow the fuzzy bunny up, you're good at a video game, neato. Your word doesn't automatically become some sacred scripture everyone else should worship."

 

You're coming off as a bit hostile here, so let me break some things down and try to come at this from a reasonable point of view.  While I can't speak for Nept, I've been entirely on-topic in this discussion.

 

More importantly, being good at a video game, especially one with ongoing balance changes, is an important aspect of being able to assess the current state of gameplay.  When discussing opinions or arguing, there are multiple aspects to consider from a given POV.  

 

- The speaker's knowledge on the subject. 

- The speaker's credibility, i.e. how their personal experiences relate to the knowledge that they're presenting.  

 

Let me go ahead and bluntly state the following:

I'm not making these arguments with the assumption that everyone should worship my point of view like it's "some sacred scripture."  To infer such an approach is silly, especially when all I've been doing is trying to have a civil discussion.  

 

 

 

There's no weight to the game, and every position you back further removes any weight left to the games mechs. Speed was increased, AC added, TTK lowered, dodge fuel consumption removed, the list goes on. There was some "simminess" before a lot of those changes, mechs took a lot of damage, fuel required more management, AC and speed increases made the feel of the mechs more plasticy (TTK as well). You missed the point. I never said it wasn't an arena shooter, I'm suggesting that all that it will be is an arena shooter with unlimited ammo and overheating. Hawken was first and foremost a mech FPS, that played more like an arena shooter vs what traditionally mech games were expected to be. It was still slow (by todays Hawken standards), mobility was grounded (now it's very similar to COD AW with the AC), and TTK is a joke. There's very little indication that you're piloting a mech besides the turn rate cap, and the HUD. The mechs feel like tin cans, not some lumbering behemoths. Removing the delay will further remove that sense of being in a lumbering machine. 

 

any position I back further removes any weight left to the game mechs?  That's another absurd, false generalization.  I've stated, on numerous occasions, that the immersion/mech factor has been lackluster since Ascension.  I was also one of the most outspoken opposers of that patch.  

 

I'd love to see an increased TTK, but I don't think movement is the core problem.  If you're looking for a slow mech sim you'd be better off in MWO.  Hawken has always been a fast arena shooter.  Further, the best and most immersive versions of the game were even faster than the current iteration.  I'm not intending to be an elitist prick here, but it seems like you don't know what you're talking about.  I've played every version of this game EXTENSIVELY.  

 

Hawken mechs were never meant to be lumbering machines.  We're talking about mechs that are barely taller than 15ft.  Additionally, they're constructed out of a light, fantasy alloy that defies gravity.  Even more funny, they're equipped with rocket thrusters.  

 

Tell me, what's slow about any of that?  

[Superkamikazee]

Did I ever say it wouldn't speed up the combat? (hint hint no). Removing the delay is obviously going to speed up the combat, that's an inevitable side effect. Sustain isn't the reason for these changes, removing the delay is an overall improvement to the game.

I guess that's your opinion. I have my opinion, you can have yours, this back and forth won't convince me your position is correct.
 

Tell me, what's slow about any of that?

I'm not saying I want some MWO lumbering game, I'm simply of the opinion making Hawken any faster isn't necessarily the right decision. And generally the loudest group to speed the game up, add more movement like the AC, has been the higher MMR players. At times it seems as though that set of players forgets there are players of average skill that play this game, and out number them by a staggering amount.

[Fstroke]

One thing I don't get is why opponents of reducing/removing the delay keep making comparisons between high level players and lower skilled players.

That's not exactly a one way street. Lines have been drawn on both sides. Honestly I think players are reacting to a particular thread that basically said "I am smarter and my opinions are more valid because I am better" paraphrasing of course.

I am just speculating.

My biggest pet peeve in this thread is that the opposing side keeps getting lumped into one category as if we all have the same opinion on the matter and simply being deemed "invalid."

It really just makes the conversation futile.

[ThirdEyE]

And generally the loudest group to speed the game up, add more movement like the AC, has been the higher MMR players. At times it seems as though that set of players forgets there are players of average skill that play this game, and out number them by a staggering amount.

Skilled players typically have a better understanding of the game, and they can often identify ways to make the game more fun for everybody.  When I first found out i could bypass the delay I wasn't that great of a player, but I began to enjoy the game more because it felt more responsive and crisp.  One of the most common complaints from new players that I've talked to, many of my IRL friends included, that the game just feels clunky to the average gamer.  We aren't forgetting about the average players, we want to remove aspects that frustrate players of all skill levels.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Skilled players typically have a better understanding of the game, and they can often identify ways to make the game more fun for everybody.  When I first found out i could bypass the delay I wasn't that great of a player, but I began to enjoy the game more because it felt more responsive and crisp.  One of the most common complaints from new players that I've talked to, many of my IRL friends included, that the game just feels clunky to the average gamer.  We aren't forgetting about the average players, we want to remove aspects that frustrate players of all skill levels.

This is a good point.

 

Higher skilled players can see both sides of the issue much better than the lesser skilled players, simply because they've experienced both sides. But if you don't have the skill to fully utilize certain functions, then your understanding is limited.

 

While it may not be the most palatable thing to stomach, the lesser skilled players must acknowledge this inequality of experience and acknowledge it does have an effect on the validity of their arguments.

[Superkamikazee]

Whelp, let's see how things turn out I guess.

[?FTD? eXeon]

I dont see how removing the delay would speed up the game at all. Its not increasing the speed at which any mech moves in any way, air, ground or even turn rate. What it does is allow for players to use boost in combat a lot more freely without instantly losing the dps race. Care to explain how the removal/reduction of the delay would speed up the game?

[Panzermanathod]

I'm assuming faster reactions after boosting and chasing becomes more viable of a tactic. My major concern is the chasing, though. I *know* the removal of the delay will make running from the battle more dangerous because guys are now going to boostfireboostfire after the wounded.

 

I said my piece on the delay, but I still think removing it will require additional balance changes. I think D-Vulcans and Hellfires will become less favorable in higher ranks, the role of Burst weapons will be heightened, and both Raiders will (or at least should) have their abilities reworked, or at the very least the G1.

[Xacius]

I said my piece on the delay, but I still think removing it will require additional balance changes. I think D-Vulcans and Hellfires will become less favorable in higher ranks, the role of Burst weapons will be heightened, and both Raiders will (or at least should) have their abilities reworked, or at the very least the G1.

 

You mean more than they already are?  Lol, no one uses those in high tier.  Even burst weapons are cast aside for their sustained alternatives.  

[IareDave]

You mean more than they already are?  Lol, no one uses those in high tier.  Even burst weapons are cast aside for their sustained alternatives.  

Bruh don't diss my vulcanator. 

[Panzermanathod]

You mean more than they already are?  Lol, no one uses those in high tier.  Even burst weapons are cast aside for their sustained alternatives.  

I said "less favorable" not "not favorable".

 

Also I heard Burst was used more often at higher ranks.

[?FTD? eXeon]

I said "less favorable" not "not favorable".

 

Also I heard Burst was used more often at higher ranks.

Youve been poorly informed, sustain is god 

 

more specifically not vulcan sustain is god, no one uses vulcan unless they're trying to be edgy or for some reason really like that weapon

Edited by Exeon, 23 April 2015 - 08:35 PM.

[n3onfx]

I said "less favorable" not "not favorable".

 

Also I heard Burst was used more often at higher ranks.

 

 

Nearly every Infiltrator playing in the highest tiers use the AR instead of Heat or EOC. The fact that they do this even though the Infilitrator is good a getting in favorable positions for alpha strikes should give you a hint.

[DerMax]

Nearly every Infiltrator playing in the highest tiers use the AR instead of Heat or EOC. The fact that they do this even though the Infilitrator is good a getting in favorable positions for alpha strikes should give you a hint.

:3

[n3onfx]

:3

 

I said "nearly" :D

 

Don't worry I know that whatever far away from battle and cozy place I find to repair I'll eat a full volley of glorious EOC from you in the seconds following the moment I press "R".

[LoC_TR]

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.

[PsychedelicGrass]

Youve been poorly informed, sustain is god 

 

more specifically not vulcan sustain is god, no one uses vulcan unless they're trying to be edgy or for some reason really like that weapon

 That BRRRRRR sound really gets me off..

[CraftyDus]

 That BRRRRRR sound really gets me off..

 

here ya go

 

 

it makes more sense to frame this "us vs them" "higher/lower" skill arguement validity nonsense into an analogy of experience over speculation.

 

People for removing the delay that also played many hundreds of hours without it and were sufficiently AWARE of the mechanics they were subject to, I would consider any insight they could offer.

 

If you haven't played both sides, or weren't even conscious of the mechanic or it's change until one of the more experienced players made it known, I would weigh as significantly speculative.

[Panzermanathod]

Since I've played a lot of Armored Core I'm basing the concept of no delay loosely off that, since the games control *slightly* similarly enough for there to be a comparison.

[CraftyDus]

Since I've played a lot of Armored Core I'm basing the concept of no delay loosely off that, since the games control *slightly* similarly enough for there to be a comparison.

 

I'm guessing there's going to be some disagreements about that stretch

 

Spoiler

[Panzermanathod]

Let me clarify...

 

The pre AC4 Armored Core games play similarly enough to Hawken to make a comparison. I've not played any beyond the PS2 era games (or Formula Front), and the older games to play closer to Hawken than the newer ones.

 

Spoiler

Edited by Panzermanathod, 24 April 2015 - 11:50 AM.

[Nov8tr]

I'm ex military. Let me put this in a military aspect. I would rather have a Admiral run the ship than a Seaman recruit. Why? Experience.

[Nept]

But what if the Seaman recruit were really adamant that he knew what he was talking about?

[Nov8tr]

And everybody in jail is innocent. Just ask em. LOL

 

**EDIT** In answer to Panzermanathod. OH NO, believe me. I guarantee there are innocent people there. Even the justice system acknowledges that. They claim it is better to "error" so they can get the guilty. What?? Yeah I do not imply that no one isn't  innocent by any stretch of the imagination. There are innocent people. I no idea why you put this reply though. Mine was done as a joke in reply to Nept, hehe.

Just as Nept's post was done as a joke to my post above his. I also know the jail situation in many countries is so corrupt that a LOT of people there are innocent. So please do not take my post the wrong way please. Thanks!

Edited by Nov8tr, 24 April 2015 - 01:35 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

That assumes that no one has been sent to jail because they don't deserve it.

[Flifang]

I miss the delay, but then again I remember how absolutely DISGUSTING certain mechs are in the absence of the delay. The game turns into boost-jump-shoot. I remember how more fluid it was but then I also remember how much it became the movement option everyone fell back on. I can't say anything about high tier play because I was still mid tier at best back then but for mid tier the lack of delay made the combat both exciting, and extremely boring at the same time.

At this point I'm on the fence but I am leaning toward keeping the delay there.

[M4st0d0n]

So gents, how's Hawken's smooth clientside prediction fluidness running right now on your computulators?

[?FTD? eXeon]

Let me clarify...

 

The pre AC4 Armored Core games play similarly enough to Hawken to make a comparison. I've not played any beyond the PS2 era games (or Formula Front), and the older games to play closer to Hawken than the newer ones.

 

Spoiler

Dear lord you just compared removal of delay after boosting to a game you can shoot 4 guns while boosting that also home in on the target. You do realize how absolutely unalike these two games are right? Its like comparing zone of enders to unreal tournament except those two are probably closer than hawken & ac4.

 

 

I miss the delay, but then again I remember how absolutely DISGUSTING certain mechs are in the absence of the delay. The game turns into boost-jump-shoot. I remember how more fluid it was but then I also remember how much it became the movement option everyone fell back on. I can't say anything about high tier play because I was still mid tier at best back then but for mid tier the lack of delay made the combat both exciting, and extremely boring at the same time.

At this point I'm on the fence but I am leaning toward keeping the delay there.

What mechs did you think were "DISGUSTING" without the delay? No one is requesting the jump-to-bypass exploitofawesome back, I want the delay reduced/removed for EVERYONE. Your 3rd sentence just seems like you want this to be a mech sim, 'i remember how fluid it was' then you go onto say 'but' like the fact that people using boost+dodge combos in combat is a bad thing....? And lastly, if you were at mid tier I would be incredibly surprised if many or any of the players at that rating were even using the bug, maybe were defining mid differently.

[Panzermanathod]

Dear lord you just compared removal of delay after boosting to a game you can shoot 4 guns while boosting that also home in on the target. You do realize how absolutely unalike these two games are right? Its like comparing zone of enders to unreal tournament except those two are probably closer than hawken & ac4.

 

A) I stated I am comparing Hawken to the older games. Not AC4.

 

B) I said they were slightly similar enough to make a comparison.

 

C) You can't shoot four guns while boosting in the older AC games. Also, the only homing weapons are the missiles and even those have varying limited homing capabilities. Kinda like Hellfires. The most amount of weapons you *can* fire in AC is 2 (3 post-Nexus if you use the new control scheme that gives Internal weapons its own fire button). Hawken is similar.

 

D) Unreal is a FPS. ZoE is High Speed Robot Action. The older Armored Core games and Hawken are more similar than your UT/ZoE comparison.

 

E) Have you played the older Armored Core games?

[Xacius]

A) I stated I am comparing Hawken to the older games. Not AC4.

 

B) I said they were slightly similar enough to make a comparison.

 

C) You can't shoot four guns while boosting in the older AC games. Also, the only homing weapons are the missiles and even those have varying limited homing capabilities. Kinda like Hellfires. The most amount of weapons you *can* fire in AC is 2 (3 post-Nexus if you use the new control scheme that gives Internal weapons its own fire button). Hawken is similar.

 

D) Unreal is a FPS. ZoE is High Speed Robot Action. The older Armored Core games and Hawken are more similar than your UT/ZoE comparison.

 

E) Have you played the older Armored Core games?

 

I've played every single Armored Core game from AC2 through AC5.  Found a jackpot at a gamestop a couple years back and got all of the PS2 ones that I never had a chance to play growing up.  My dream goal is to make an Armored Core esque game for the PC.  All the speed, first person, no auto-aim.  

 

Hawken is no where close to the speed in any of the early Armored Cores, and I don't see how the delay removal would bring the game closer to Armored Core levels.   Even back in the late PS2 Armored Core titles, you could fire while boosting.  AC2, one of the earliest iterations, had the overboost, which was stupidly fast in comparison to the max speed in Hawken.  If overboost existed in Hawken, scaled to Hawken's average mech size, you'd be able to cross the frontline bridge from end to end in less than 4 seconds.  That's fuzzy bunnyng fast.  

[Panzermanathod]

I don't want Hawken to be more like Armored Core. I merely compared the two gameplay wise. I know Hawken will never be like AC, nor should it be. And I've played Every pre AC4 game barring Formula Front. I own all the PS2 ACs myself.

[comic_sans]

 

If overboost existed in Hawken, scaled to Hawken's average mech size, you'd be able to cross the frontline bridge from end to end in less than 4 seconds.  That's fuzzy bunnyng fast.  

 

At risk of derailing this further, I submit that the racecar noise OB made in AC4 was kickin' rad.

Edited by comic_sans, 24 April 2015 - 06:33 PM.

[Flifang]

I had no idea my two cents had the power to invoke such ire, even when I tried to voice how neutral I was on this subject. I mentioned that a few mechs with the boost+jump shoot combo were, "disgusting" because out of all the posts here I didn't see any that mentioned it. If I recall it was a pretty big thing when scouts and brawlers especially could do that. I don't know how you came to the conclusion I was interested in the game as a mech sim by any means as nothing in my post hints in any way towards realism. I have no opinions on shooters, or mech games as this is my first ever of the two I have played more than two hours. Hell, I played since march of 2013 with my fov at 70 and my sensitivity at 30 until about December of last year, so as you can see I'm no experienced competitive gamer. The objective of my post was merely to put a few things on the table I saw as relevant to the topic that I had not seen brought up. I had talked with another person on the subject over teamspeak that remembered these things as well but seemed reluctant to post, and now I can see why. The lack of delay in my opinion made a few mechs very powerful and limited the movement meta to a few maneuvers. I'm not taking any particular side as I could care less knowing my opinion alone will hardly matter when the decisions get made.

[Nept]

[?FTD? eXeon]

I had no idea my two cents had the power to invoke such ire, even when I tried to voice how neutral I was on this subject. I mentioned that a few mechs with the boost+jump shoot combo were, "disgusting" because out of all the posts here I didn't see any that mentioned it. If I recall it was a pretty big thing when scouts and brawlers especially could do that. I don't know how you came to the conclusion I was interested in the game as a mech sim by any means as nothing in my post hints in any way towards realism. I have no opinions on shooters, or mech games as this is my first ever of the two I have played more than two hours. Hell, I played since march of 2013 with my fov at 70 and my sensitivity at 30 until about December of last year, so as you can see I'm no experienced competitive gamer. The objective of my post was merely to put a few things on the table I saw as relevant to the topic that I had not seen brought up. I had talked with another person on the subject over teamspeak that remembered these things as well but seemed reluctant to post, and now I can see why. The lack of delay in my opinion made a few mechs very powerful and limited the movement meta to a few maneuvers. I'm not taking any particular side as I could care less knowing my opinion alone will hardly matter when the decisions get made.

Please elaborate on how you think the ability to bypass the raise delay made these two mechs or any others you feel were very powerful so strong. I know a lot of players complained about scout but, that was not an issue with the raise delay but the players themselves being incapable of adjusting to a turn rate cap game. As for the brawler, I don't think I've heard many people complain about this one, I'd like to hear what you think makes it so broken.

But we really need to talk about this line here,

The lack of delay in my opinion made a few mechs very powerful and limited the movement meta to a few maneuvers.

How in the fuzzy bunny did you come to the conclusion that removing a delay preventing you from firing and almost instantly losing you any fight if you boosted reduces the available movement options? HOW. IN. THE. FUZZY. BUNNY.

 

 

A) I stated I am comparing Hawken to the older games. Not AC4.

B) I said they were slightly similar enough to make a comparison.

C) Long comment, see main post

D) Unreal is a FPS. ZoE is High Speed Robot Action. The older Armored Core games and Hawken are more similar than your UT/ZoE comparison.

E) Have you played the older Armored Core games?

A)My bad, mistyped that, I was referring to your comment of earlier AC's after watching the video you linked

B)They have similar themes, they shoot weapons, and have a boosting mechanic that functions completely different in both games

C)My bad on that number, just threw a random one out, all I could remember from AC is the ability to fire multiple weapons

D) Both ZoE and EU shoot lasers, have melee weapons, have a dodge mechanic which is more similar than the one between AC & HWK, seem to be rather good comparison between 4 games that have almost 0 gameplay similarities.

E)Yes, everyone on the PS & PS2 too long ago

[Flifang]

Again, I guess I didn't make something clear. I'm not here to argue. I don't understand why you sound oh so angry or why you're still talking to me. I've said my stance on it is neutral and that I was bringing my own thoughts to the topic. If you want to dispute what I have to say in a decent manner, please do I'm all ears and I will admit when I'm proven wrong. It baffles me why you address my words with such spite. I'll think twice before posting in these kinds of threads. I hope tomorrow is a better day for you than today was

[Xacius]

Currently, the movement meta is more limited than it would be if the delay was removed.  Just my 2 cents.  

[?FTD? eXeon]

Again, I guess I didn't make something clear. I'm not here to argue. I don't understand why you sound oh so angry or why you're still talking to me. I've said my stance on it is neutral and that I was bringing my own thoughts to the topic. If you want to dispute what I have to say in a decent manner, please do I'm all ears and I will admit when I'm proven wrong. It baffles me why you address my words with such spite. I'll think twice before posting in these kinds of threads. I hope tomorrow is a better day for you than today was

Im sorry if you took offense from my reaction to your conclusion that the removal of the delay would hinder movement. You seem to just take everything negatively when all I've done is ask for examples of what you see is wrong, all you say is, there are problems without the delay. Well, what are they? What makes the scout and brawler very powerful when they have no delay? Sorry the way I wrote upset you