539 replies to this topic

[Fstroke]

wait a minute ..... if we reduce or take away the delay, wouldnt that also kinda indirectly nerf the raider's ability? XD idk

There are many unintended consequences that would arise from such a change. The raiders ability is probably on the bottom of that list because it is still very fast.

I have the opinion that it will have significant impact on the meta in areas it did not intend to. The main problem I see with it is those lobbying for its removal are attempting to broadbrush fix other problems in the current meta. I don't see why we don't just address those problems directly.

[n3onfx]

wait a minute ..... if we reduce or take away the delay, wouldnt that also kinda indirectly nerf the raider's ability? XD idk

 

Not really, when you stop boosting there's a loss in momentum anyways, that and the deceleration allows the other player to know you're probably going to shoot so you can anticipate.

 

Raider's ability still allows to shoot without any loss in momentum and un-predictably. And that's coming from someone who mains Raider and wouldn't be against any buffs ^^

[?FTD? eXeon]

There are many unintended consequences that would arise from such a change. The raiders ability is probably on the bottom of that list because it is still very fast.

I have the opinion that it will have significant impact on the meta in areas it did not intend to. The main problem I see with it is those lobbying for its removal are attempting to broadbrush fix other problems in the current meta. I don't see why we don't just address those problems directly.

I do not want the delay removed because it will fix other problems, i want it removed because having to wait before you shoot is so fuzzy bunnyng annoying and clunky. It also happens to help in areas where the game currently has issues which is why I and others have brought them up, alongside the almost 0 downsides to it other than people being worried that 'it might cause problems', well im still waiting to hear what any of those are if anyone has some. I'd love to hear what you think removing a .5 second delay after boosting will impact significantly.

[StubbornPuppet]

I think it's perfect the way it is - the way it was intended.  These are big stompy robots, not graceful little weightless butterflies with guns that weigh nothing more than a feather.  Also, its about technique - if you know it's going to take a moment to fire after you boost, you might want to think about not boosting or perhaps coming out of it sooner.

 

Besides, the last thing I think Hawken needs is to be "faster".

 

Even from the most superficial standpoint, graphics, it will look silly without it.  When a mech boosts, it's arms drop down and point back - it takes time for them to raise back up to position.  Take it away and they either have a stupid looking visual bug where the arms instantly blip back into the firing forward position OR they have to completly recode the whole animation of boosting for every mech.

 

And still, there was no complaint about this at all until the Adhesive developers fixed the bug that allowed people to avoid the intended delay by jumping out of boost.  They fixed a bug that only a certain percentage of players had figured out and then they all started screaming.

 

This isn't meant to antagonize or to discredit any arguments for removing the delay, just wanted to express my opinion and remind where this whole debate started.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 26 April 2015 - 05:17 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

Speaking of animation, if it was redone so the arms remain up while boosting... why not just have shooting while boosting? How would one justify the fact that the guns are held up, and yet you can't shoot while boosting? You can more easily justify the arms being drawn back by simply going "aerodynamics". And as such the arms need a half second to readjust.

 

Either the guns snap back in place in an instant, or the guns remain up. And if they remain up why not just shoot while boosting? Raider can do it just fine.

 

As an aside this reminds me of people who complained the inability to move and shoot in RE, or tank controls in general, or that Mortal Kombat had a block button.

[?FTD? eXeon]

Here's the simplest argument I can come up with

 

Why should the negative side of boosting extend past its benefit?

 

 

If you want slow lumbering mechs go play MWO please. I do not see how removing the delay will speed up hawken at all, the mechs will still boost, walk, turn, fly just as fast as before BUT, you'll be able to actually utilize all those movement options even in a firefight without the delay, unlike now.

 

Panzer, no one wants to shoot while moving....well, I'm sure some might and those people are insane. I merely want the freedom of movement I once had that no one complained about until people knew about. I'm sure there may be balance issues players didnt exploit well enough when it was possible to do so but, those are fixable through other means, we dont need an excessive negative impact on boosting, one of the  very few movement options in hawken.

[AsianJoyKiller]

The "the (lack of) animation would look silly" argument is a no-go. It's an incredibly flimsy premise to argue upon.

 

If you have ever played a game where you jump the instant you hit the button, or throw a grenade, or punch, or knife, or shoot. If you've ever played one of those games, and hadn't noticed any issues with those animations, then you should have no problem with instant shooting after boosting.

 

There are animation tricks that are always used by videogames to make instant actions feel like they had a windup or prep time. It is common practice, and it is so ingrained as normal by gamers that they never notice its use. And do you know why it's done?

 

It's done to avoid the exact problems that the weapons raise delay has. The feeling of loss of control and responsiveness. The fact that it's inherently detrimental to aggressive action. These are things that developers across the industry have realized are things that generally make gamers feel bad, affect gameplay negatively, and made it standard practice to eliminate.

 

I'm fairly sure I already explained that in this very thread.

[Panzermanathod]

I was just saying, in terms of animation and "immersion", if delay was removed the arms would either have to snap into place (which would look funky), or remain out. And if they remained out, then why not just allow shooting while boosting?

 

I mean, I'm pretty sure either solution wouldn't look right for other players. I am *not* saying delay shouldn't be removed because of animations. I'm saying if it was there would be less justification for the animations. And if you want to show new players this game I think it wouldn't leave a good impression on some if the arms (and only the arms) were snapping into place or having the guns out but, for some reason, you just aren't allowed to shoot.

 

Personally, my thing about the removal of delay involves 2 things.

 

1) You can't *just* remove the delay. This isn't some tiny thing, it's a major shift in balance and changes up a lot of stuff. In this regard, a removal *concerns* me.

 

2) It's a gameplay trait. It's not so much that there's such negative repercussions for it's removal, moreso... well, there's the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Again, it's like people complaining that Mortal Kombat has a block button (not other fighters with it. I generally only hear it for MK). It's one thing to not like an aspect of the game, but sometimes there are things that, personally, I don't find inherently broken or have an issue with.

[StubbornPuppet]

And I'm just saying I disagree.

Hawken is fast and aggressive without making all of the action perpetually instantaneous.  I liked it even more the way it was before Steam and Ascension.

[CraftyDus]

I was just saying, in terms of animation and "immersion", if delay was removed the arms would either have to snap into place (which would look funky), or remain out. And if they remained out, then why not just allow shooting while boosting?
 
I mean, I'm pretty sure either solution wouldn't look right for other players. I am *not* saying delay shouldn't be removed because of animations. I'm saying if it was there would be less justification for the animations. And if you want to show new players this game I think it wouldn't leave a good impression on some if the arms (and only the arms) were snapping into place or having the guns out but, for some reason, you just aren't allowed to shoot.
 
Personally, my thing about the removal of delay involves 2 things.
 
1) You can't *just* remove the delay. This isn't some tiny thing, it's a major shift in balance and changes up a lot of stuff. In this regard, a removal *concerns* me.
 
2) It's a gameplay trait. It's not so much that there's such negative repercussions for it's removal, moreso... well, there's the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Again, it's like people complaining that Mortal Kombat has a block button (not other fighters with it. I generally only hear it for MK). It's one thing to not like an aspect of the game, but sometimes there are things that, personally, I don't find inherently broken or have an issue with.

It wasn't broke in the first place, they just didn't like how it looked.
Instead of fixing the asthetic they lazily added a delay to the movement.
At a significant detriment to established gameplay.
Nerfing movement to make it match the animation nicely is inadvertent and ham-handed.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face.
Remove the delay. It played better without it.

[?FTD? eXeon]

I was just saying, in terms of animation and "immersion", if delay was removed the arms would either have to snap into place (which would look funky), or remain out. And if they remained out, then why not just allow shooting while boosting?

 

I mean, I'm pretty sure either solution wouldn't look right for other players. I am *not* saying delay shouldn't be removed because of animations. I'm saying if it was there would be less justification for the animations. And if you want to show new players this game I think it wouldn't leave a good impression on some if the arms (and only the arms) were snapping into place or having the guns out but, for some reason, you just aren't allowed to shoot.

 

Personally, my thing about the removal of delay involves 2 things.

 

1) You can't *just* remove the delay. This isn't some tiny thing, it's a major shift in balance and changes up a lot of stuff. In this regard, a removal *concerns* me.

 

2) It's a gameplay trait. It's not so much that there's such negative repercussions for it's removal, moreso... well, there's the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Again, it's like people complaining that Mortal Kombat has a block button (not other fighters with it. I generally only hear it for MK). It's one thing to not like an aspect of the game, but sometimes there are things that, personally, I don't find inherently broken or have an issue with.

You seem to be suffering from what I like to call change-itus. As for the animation, please read this thread thoroughly more specifically AJK's posts, even the  one right above you explaining kindly why this is a horrible reason. I'm honestly not opposed to testing shooting while boosting, you should make a thread about this and see how it pans out.

 

As for your first issue, you can just remove the delay(many high level players used this bug for a very long time without even realizing it). The delay is something tiny, its less than .6 seconds of a delay, barely even half a second. What exactly does the removal of the delay change in terms of balance and this other stuff you refer to? You seem to just be scared of change

 

And for your second, in the first 15 words you already deny your first argument. Lets continue with it though, sometimes things seem like they're not broken when you just dont see that they could be made even better. Lets take skiing in Tribes for example, originally skiing was considered a bug. Now at tribes, it is a franchise literally known for its skiing. Hawken once had a bug where there was no raise delay(kinda like how tribes once had a bug with jetpacks allowing players to skii)...see where I'm going with this? I know obviously hawken will not be known for the lack of delay but it is a bug that made their game much better. This also isn't a reason to not remove the delay, this is just you being opposed to change.

 

edit: less mean

Edited by Exeon, 26 April 2015 - 08:11 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

It wasn't broke in the first place, they just didn't like how it looked.
Instead of fixing the asthetic they lazily added a delay to the movement.
At a significant detriment to established gameplay.
Nerfing movement to make it match the animation nicely is inadvertent and ham-handed.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face.
Remove the delay. It played better without it.

^What are you talking about?  The delay was there to begin with, ever since ever.  The only thing that was done was to fix the bug that allowed players to jump out of a boost to skip the delay.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 26 April 2015 - 08:11 PM.

[?FTD? eXeon]

Hawken is fast and aggressive without making all of the action perpetually instantaneous.  I liked it even more the way it was before Steam and Ascension.

I totally agree with you man, I loved it before steam and ascension...when there was the jump to bypass the weapon raise delay =)

Edited by Exeon, 26 April 2015 - 08:12 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

I totally agree with you man, I loved it before steam and ascension...when there was the jump to bypass the weapon raise delay =)

You know damn good and well that's not what I meant :P

[Panzermanathod]

You seem to be suffering from what I like to call change-itus.

 

(((Oh, quiet, you.)))

 

As for the animation, please read this thread thoroughly more specifically AJK's posts, even the  one right above you explaining kindly why this is a horrible reason. I'm honestly not opposed to testing shooting while boosting, you should make a thread about this and see how it pans out.

 

(((I did read AJK's post as I made my reply. )))

 

 

As for your first issue, you can just remove the delay(many high level players used this bug for a very long time without even realizing it). The delay is something tiny, its less than .6 seconds of a delay, barely even half a second. What exactly does the removal of the delay change in terms of balance and this other stuff you refer to? You seem to just be scared of change.

 

(((So you are saying that the removal of the delay will have no major changes in gameplay? In that case the delay can stay, yo.)))

 

And for your second, in the first 15 words you already deny your first argument.

 

(((I was asking a question on how no delay effects animations. My question still stands.)))

 

Lets continue with it though, sometimes things seem like they're not broken when you just dont see that they could be made even better. Lets take skiing in Tribes for example, originally skiing was considered a bug. Now at tribes, it is a franchise literally known for its skiing. Hawken once had a bug where there was no raise delay(kinda like how tribes once had a bug with jetpacks allowing players to skii)...see where I'm going with this? I know obviously hawken will not be known for the lack of delay but it is a bug that made their game much better.

 

(((I don't know if I said this already or not, but don't cite "it was a bug people liked" as a reason to remove the delay. Meta in combat, I get. Issues with a half second of not shooting, I get. Those are reasons. A glitch people liked isn't a good reason. And if it is a perfectly legit reason, then worries over animation quality are nearly as good a reason for not removing the delays..)))

 

 

This also isn't a reason to not remove the delay, this is just you being opposed to change.

 

(((Look at the suggestions board. See how many people make a suggestion only for a bunch of people going, in various ways, NO DON'T DO THAT in some threads. Or are you saying those people are opposed to change because they don't just accept each and every suggestion made. You and others like the idea of the delay being removed and the bug being worked as an actual game feature and if someone doesn't think there was anything wrong with the delay that person doesn't realize it was secretly a terrible idea that could be improved upon by it's removal and those who think that are just fearing change. Or maybe some who played with the glitch in are the ones opposed to change. The change being the removal of the bug and thus no more exploiting a bug in the delay. They want the change not only undone but built upon. They're opposed to the change of there not being a way to mitigate the delay!

 

Or maybe you just have no real basis for claiming I'm opposed to change.)))

 

Edited by Panzermanathod, 26 April 2015 - 08:48 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I was just saying, in terms of animation and "immersion", if delay was removed the arms would either have to snap into place (which would look funky), or remain out. And if they remained out, then why not just allow shooting while boosting?

I'm sorry, did you not see how I mentioned games where you jump instantly, throw grenades instantly, etc.? Have you never played any action games aside from Hawken? Because I guarentee you, these sorts of faux-delay animations exist in any game that requires responsiveness while trying to look like the action is natural and organic.

 

You keep pressing this false dichotomy that the arms must always be at the ready, or they must instantly snap into place. But like I said before, there are animation tricks that are used to make instant actions look believably delayed.

I'm going to state this very simply.

 

You do not have a point with the animation argument. It has been over 2 decades since videogame animators have figured out how to make animations for instant actions look not-instant.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 26 April 2015 - 09:49 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

I'm sorry, did you not see how I mentioned games where you jump instantly, throw grenades instantly, etc.?

 

(((Yes)))

 

Have you never played any action games aside from Hawken?

 

(((Did you read my posts where I compared Hawken to Armored Core?)))

 

Because I guarentee you, these sorts of faux-delay animations exist in any game that requires responsiveness while trying to look like the action is natural and organic.

 

(((Okay)))

 

You keep pressing this false dichotomy that the arms must always be at the ready, or they must instantly snap into place. But like I said before, there are animation tricks that are used to make instant actions look believably delayed.

 

(((And how would this be implemented in Hawken?)))

I'm going to state this very simply.

 

You do not have a point with the animation argument.

 

(((Good, we agree then. Whatever argument I made for keeping the delay did not involve my statements about the animation, actually. I stated this already.)))

[Dew]

TBQH if you're looking for immersion, HAWKEN isn't really the place you should be looking for it.

[?FTD? eXeon]

(((So you are saying that the removal of the delay will have no major changes in gameplay? In that case the delay can stay, yo.)))

Yes, I am saying that there will be almost no major change to gameplay, you will just be able to utilize all the aspects of movement freely. You jump to the best assumptions it just makes me laugh.

(((I was asking a question on how no delay effects animations. My question still stands.)))

Here's a quote you made just above countering this argument yourself, thanks for that btw (((Good, we agree then. Whatever argument I made for keeping the delay did not involve my statements about the animation, actually. I stated this already.)))

No, you were not asking anything related animation, in your two main issues with the removal of the delay you did not make note of the animation of the delay even once. You commented on how it would could a lot of balance changes and 'other stuff' then went on to say in your second issue that "It's not that there are negative reppercussions for the removal of the delay" BUT, you dont think it should be changed because you think its not broken.

(((I don't know if I said this already or not, but don't cite "it was a bug people liked" as a reason to remove the delay. Meta in combat, I get. Issues with a half second of not shooting, I get. Those are reasons. A glitch people liked isn't a good reason. And if it is a perfectly legit reason, then worries over animation quality are nearly as good a reason for not removing the delays..)))

I never said that because it was a bug that peopel liked we should remove the delay, I was pointing out your shortsightedness with your thought process of if its not broken dont fix it. Tribes thought their game was broken so they fixed it(now tribes is in a state without skiing and is 'fixed' like you want your games to be) then they realized that even though it was fixed, it needed refixing because it wasn't good enough, so they readded skiing. Much like how I would like them to remove the raise delay that they 'fixed'.

 

(((Look at the suggestions board. See how many people make a suggestion only for a bunch of people going, in various ways, NO DON'T DO THAT in some threads. Or are you saying those people are opposed to change because they don't just accept each and every suggestion made. You and others like the idea of the delay being removed and the bug being worked as an actual game feature and if someone doesn't think there was anything wrong with the delay that person doesn't realize it was secretly a terrible idea that could be improved upon by it's removal and those who think that are just fearing change. Or maybe some who played with the glitch in are the ones opposed to change. The change being the removal of the bug and thus no more exploiting a bug in the delay. They want the change not only undone but built upon. They're opposed to the change of there not being a way to mitigate the delay!

 

 

Or maybe you just have no real basis for claiming I'm opposed to change.)))

Yes, I think that people who cannot come up with a logical reason for the delay to stay are just opposed to change. By the meaning of those words and your current lack of actual reasoning for the delay you are opposed to change, you have no logical argument for the delay. You've made two arguments and in one of them you literally shot down your first. Your first argument is literally you stating you think that the change could be bad, why? You dont know, you just think it so, you can read through this thread, many people have stated why it would be good or I can reiterate them for you. Your second argument is literally, YOU do not think it is broken so we should keep it that way, this is the same as saying we should remove the delay because I think its broken and we should fix it. No, I've never said that because its not an argument, it is my opinion, an argument is, the raise delay hinder's mechs ability to utilize boost in combat. Please come up with a real reason besides you don't like the idea of change, a real reason not your opinion or a quote from 35 years ago.

 

As for the end of that last paragraph of yours, people who want change are not opposing change, they are merely asking for more change, CHANGELOVERS! I do have a real basis for claiming your opposed to change, you literally have no actual reason to oppose the removal of the delay besides you dont like it.

Edited by Exeon, 26 April 2015 - 10:44 PM.

[M4st0d0n]

Because change is good. It's fluid. And delay is bad. It's like suicide, like throwing yourself off of a cliff. Then you'll become a nazi zombie, with cancer.

Edited by M4st0d0n, 27 April 2015 - 01:59 AM.

[crockrocket]

The fact that this discussion is still going indicates (at least in my mind) a need to test this concept. You (reloaded) have already established the concept of a stress test weekend, how about a no weapon raise delay weekend? Perfect way to test imo, let's settle this once and for all.

[DerMax]

It's funny how some people in this thread talk about the no-delay thing in hypotheticals, as if it were a completely new concept that the game has never seen.

Edited by DerMax, 27 April 2015 - 03:05 AM.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

There's no doubt that the game felt more responsive when jumping to bypass the delay was possible. However, disengagements were also a lot more dangerous and A classes were even more annoying and unfun to fight.

Honestly, Hawken is a complete mess when it comes to balance. Boosting cannot be used for combat because of the delay but neither can one flank using it due to the radar mechanics. Items are what is necessary to break down death balls but the spinning top mechanisms require too close proximity to approach a death ball. (Delay removal would be utterly negligible against death balls, death balls developed prior to the patch on the delay.)

There are simply too many contradictions in Hawken. The only theory I have is that the devs had a very specific vision of how matches would work and then never explained it. (Or perhaps they simply had no idea what the hell they were doing.)

The delay removal or decrease would be a decent idea, but the delay is not the only problem in Hawken. As the situation stands, it would benefit A classes the most, B classes next, and C classes least since the boost speeds vary so much between classes.

It does not matter that much to me, I will still play Hawken regardless. I am confident that delay decrease or terminal would increase enjoyment of control though.

Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 27 April 2015 - 04:03 AM.

[PoopSlinger]

How is this still going?

[Nept]

The fact that this discussion is still going indicates (at least in my mind) a need to test this concept. You (reloaded) have already established the concept of a stress test weekend, how about a no weapon raise delay weekend? Perfect way to test imo, let's settle this once and for all.

 

Not that I mind testing the concept, but it's worth mentioning that continued "discussion" doesn't indicate an unresolved debate.  What's important is who is continuing that discussion, and why.  In America, for example, the "discussion" around global warming continues even though ~99% of climate change scientists agree that's it's both a) a real thing and b) anthropogenic.  And the dissenting 1-2% are either being paid to publish dissenting articles, or have no reputation within the scientific community.  Add to that the fact that the "debate" is only a debate in America, and you've all signs pointing toward manufactured uncertainty being bought by a misinformed/ignorant populace.

Edited by Nept, 27 April 2015 - 04:41 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

 

Yes, I am saying that there will be almost no major change to gameplay, you will just be able to utilize all the aspects of movement freely. You jump to the best assumptions it just makes me laugh.

 

(((If there would be almost no change to gameplay, they why are people so adamant to the delay removal? Even 32W thinks the delay removal will effect balance. Even I've been told that this change would alter the Meta of the game.)))

 

 

No, you were not asking anything related animation,

(((If I take this out of context I am sorry, but. if you are saying what I think you're saying and how you're saying it I totally did ask about the animations. And I later stated that I was never using animations as a reason to keep the delay in. And then I asked AKJ about how exactly would he/she think the animations would be effected. )))

 

 

 

I never said that because it was a bug that peopel liked we should remove the delay, I was pointing out your shortsightedness with your thought process of if its not broken dont fix it. Tribes thought their game was broken so they fixed it(now tribes is in a state without skiing and is 'fixed' like you want your games to be) then they realized that even though it was fixed, it needed refixing because it wasn't good enough, so they readded skiing. Much like how I would like them to remove the raise delay that they 'fixed'.

 

(((Uh huh. .)))

 

Yes, I think that people who cannot come up with a logical reason for the delay to stay are just opposed to change. By the meaning of those words and your current lack of actual reasoning for the delay you are opposed to change, you have no logical argument for the delay. You've made two arguments and in one of them you literally shot down your first. Your first argument is literally you stating you think that the change could be bad, why? You dont know, you just think it so,

 

(((You mean when I stated that the balance changes that the removal of the delay concern me? I can't have concerns over the long term effects of such a change? Or are you still thinking I'm short sighted in this regard as well?)))

 

 Your second argument is literally, YOU do not think it is broken so we should keep it that way, this is the same as saying we should remove the delay because I think its broken and we should fix it. No, I've never said that because its not an argument, it is my opinion, an argument is, the raise delay hinder's mechs ability to utilize boost in combat. Please come up with a real reason besides you don't like the idea of change, a real reason not your opinion or a quote from 35 years ago.

 

(((The boost was a thing that stresses movement over offensive ability. Your boost was limited in extended usage, put you on the radar, and kept you from firing after disengaging for a half second. But you got to where you need to be faster and in some instances allowed you to chase after a fleeing enemy. But barring the Raider boosting as an offensive maneuver was never particularly useful thing.

 

*This* is my reasoning for keeping the delay that I stated before but, eh, this thread is getting dense so I might as well reiterate. The delay is a mechanic, and it worked fine. If you want the boost to be changed into a slightly more offensive viable ability, fine. Of course, I disagree in this regard.)))

 

 

 

As for the end of that last paragraph of yours, people who want change are not opposing change, they are merely asking for more change, CHANGELOVERS! I do have a real basis for claiming your opposed to change, you literally have no actual reason to oppose the removal of the delay besides you dont like it.

 

(((I do have reasons. One of which is that the delay is fine as is. As it was meant to be. I'm not so against it as to find a Hawken without the delay unplayable or anything like that, but if you don't think  me not finding the chance necessary is not a good enough reason, then fine.

 

Plus part of the reason I made that paragraph is because I was proving a point that I could blindly say some people who want the bug back was opposed to change as well. I could say that the older players who want Hawken to be more like an older version are opposed to change. My point is you shouldn't be throwing out words like "You're just opposed to change".

[DieselCat]

#OpposedToChangeKeepTheDelayToMakeTheGameMoreFluid  

 

*+

[Fstroke]

Not that I mind testing the concept, but it's worth mentioning that continued "discussion" doesn't indicate an unresolved debate. What's important is who is continuing that discussion, and why. In America, for example, the "discussion" around global warming continues even though ~99% of climate change scientists agree that's it's both a) a real thing and b) anthropogenic. And the dissenting 1-2% are either being paid to publish dissenting articles, or have no reputation within the scientific community. Add to that the fact that the "debate" is only a debate in America, and you've all signs pointing toward manufactured uncertainty being bought by a misinformed/ignorant populace.

I suppose in this analogy you are the scientist.

Where did all this hay come from?

[?FTD? eXeon]

(((If there would be almost no change to gameplay, they why are people so adamant to the delay removal? Even 32W thinks the delay removal will effect balance. Even I've been told that this change would alter the Meta of the game.)))

 

 

What is the biggest reason to remove this mechanic? It is UNFUN. This is what makes me so adamant about this delay. I played a game for many months that utilized boosting in combat, now I dont play a game that is devolved into boring DPS races. If you can think of any reason that the delay would cause a BALANCE issue that is what I've been looking for throughout this entire thread. In all the time I played using the jump to bypass delay I don't think I've heard of anyone complain about it that played near my mmr range.

 

(((If I take this out of context I am sorry, but. if you are saying what I think you're saying and how you're saying it I totally did ask about the animations. And I later stated that I was never using animations as a reason to keep the delay in. And then I asked AKJ about how exactly would he/she think the animations would be effected. )))

 

I responded to your second issue which was "if it doesn't work dont fix it" paragraph, go read your first issue then the first 15 or 20 words of your second issue and you can plainly see you counter your own argument.

 

(((You mean when I stated that the balance changes that the removal of the delay concern me? I can't have concerns over the long term effects of such a change? Or are you still thinking I'm short sighted in this regard as well?)))

 

No, I think you're just scared of change in this regard. Please let me know what you think the removal of the delay would do to balance that would be an issue, I'm sure I've got experience in any situation you can imagine without the delay, I'm sure there are others that could answer your concerns with actual experience with this.

 

(((The boost was a thing that stresses movement over offensive ability. Your boost was limited in extended usage, put you on the radar, and kept you from firing after disengaging for a half second. But you got to where you need to be faster and in some instances allowed you to chase after a fleeing enemy. But barring the Raider boosting as an offensive maneuver was never particularly useful thing.

 

The last sentence blows my mind, you have no clue what you're talking about if you think boosting is never useful offensively. I will admit the rest of your argument here is sound but, I have a question for you. You're trading off speed for damage when you're boosting but why do you have to lose damage and gain nothing for .5 seconds? Doesn't sound very balanced to me.

 

(((I do have reasons. One of which is that the delay is fine as is. As it was meant to be. I'm not so against it as to find a Hawken without the delay unplayable or anything like that, but if you don't think  me not finding the chance necessary is not a good enough reason, then fine.

 

You thinking the delay is fine, again, is not a reason to keep the delay, if that was the case for everything we'd have things like perfect homing hellfires that are undodgable. And no, I do not find your being against the change a reason at all, you dont' even know how to play the game when you make comments like boosting is never particularly useful.

 

Plus part of the reason I made that paragraph is because I was proving a point that I could blindly say some people who want the bug back was opposed to change as well. I could say that the older players who want Hawken to be more like an older version are opposed to change. My point is you shouldn't be throwing out words like "You're just opposed to change".

 

No one opposed the change to fixing the raise delay bypass bug, people wanted the removal of the delay after it was fixed though. No one wanted it back to how it was before, they wanted the raise delay reduced/removed after you stopped boosting not just when you jumped. So you didn't really prove anything about people being opposed to change, if you come up with a decent reason to keep the delay I'd believe you weren't just opposed to change. For now all I hear is 'Hawken is the way I like it and keep it like that!' which screams CHANGEITUS.

Edited by Exeon, 27 April 2015 - 06:30 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

 

What is the biggest reason to remove this mechanic? It is UNFUN.

 

(((So you've harped at me for using subjective reasoning then use subjective reasoning yourself. I))

 

I responded to your second issue which was "if it doesn't work dont fix it" paragraph, go read your first issue then the first 15 or 20 words of your second issue and you can plainly see you counter your own argument.

 

(((Oh, now I see. 

 

Still sticking to what I said, though. I am *concerned* over the balance shifting that would be caused if/when the delay is removed. That is one reason. Another reason isI don't think it's "not so much there's such negative repercussions" (and not that there aren't any) moreso it isn't necessary to change it.)))

 

No, I think you're just scared of change in this regard. Please let me know what you think the removal of the delay would do to balance that would be an issue, I'm sure I've got experience in any situation you can imagine without the delay, I'm sure there are others that could answer your concerns with actual experience with this.

 

(((Altered chasing meta, weapon choice meta (including making the Point D vulcan potentially trash (or more trash) in high tiered games), how different boost speeds with different weapons will effect this, how much more aggressive this might make the game, how burst weapons might be effected in the meta, how the Raider's ability might be effected, how turret modes figure into this new meta, Boostjumpshootboostjumpshoot being more viable to mitigate some of the lost momentum, and probably some other stuff I can't think of as I'm in no position to actually effect balance changes.)))

 

The last sentence blows my mind, you have no clue what you're talking about if you think boosting is never useful offensively. I will admit the rest of your argument here is sound but, I have a question for you. You're trading off speed for damage when you're boosting but why do you have to lose damage and gain nothing for .5 seconds? Doesn't sound very balanced to me.

 

(((Never said it's never used offensively. Just that, given other methods of moving and shooting, using the boost as an offensive maneuver wasn't particularly useful in comparison.

 

And to answer your question, again, boosting trades offensive capability for speed, with that half second delay being part of the trade off as well. Other games have used some means of extra speed but gave it some negative tradeoff as well. Could be a simple limited pool of turbo charges, or be it lowered handling, lower health (Wipeout, boost and health were tied to the same meter), Armored Core had negative repercussions for Boosting and Over Boosting if they aren't used properly, potential to launch yourself off into some stage hazard, etc. I see the delay as yet another trade off in sacrificing offensive capability for mobility.  )))

 

 

 So you didn't really prove anything about people being opposed to change, if you come up with a decent reason to keep the delay I'd believe you weren't just opposed to change.

 

(((I said my point is that I could blindly say people was opposed to change and that it shouldn't be done. Don't say I'm opposed to change because I disagree with you and that you don't find my reasoning good enough. "Opposed to change" covers a lot of ground.)))

 

 

For now all I hear is 'Hawken is the way I like it and keep it like that!' which screams CHANGEITUS.

 

(((As opposed to, what, "Hawken isn't the way I like it so change it!" ?)))

 

[Avlaen]

to me the delay feels normal. many infantry fps' have a delay after sprinting before being able to fire.

 

To me this is just the same, and i think a person boosting shouldnt be able to fire as fast as a guy whos walking knowing that an enemy is coming around the corner (due to him boosting). to me that delay helps put in that element of surprise. you can boost around that corner but if theres an enemy there you wont be able to bring your weapons to bear as fast as if you was walking. And i think thats a good thing personaly.

[Silverfire]

It unfortunately still promotes defensive gameplay, it hurts anyone who wants to attack. One can comftably hide behind a corner and wait for an enemy to round the corner, and get that .5 second advantage. There's less of an incentive to go on the offensive because you know that you don't get your weapons raise. Removing the delay or at least reducing it evens up the corner play a little better in favor of the attacker for face to face engagements.

It even gimps open combat, where I might dodge boost hop to attack, but still be gimped, losing out on .5 seconds of attack. There have been far too many times where I feel the delay when in an open fight after trying to execute a move and it gets me killed when i should've gotten the kill. If anything, it limits advanced movement to a slight degree because it's taking away an option.

[Fstroke]

It unfortunately still promotes defensive gameplay, it hurts anyone who wants to attack. One can comftably hide behind a corner and wait for an enemy to round the corner, and get that .5 second advantage. There's less of an incentive to go on the offensive because you know that you don't get your weapons raise. Removing the delay or at least reducing it evens up the corner play a little better in favor of the attacker for face to face engagements.

This is exactly what I am talking about. The meta being too bias towards defensive play and too reliant on positioning will not be solved by removing WRD. This meta existed before the glitch was removed and it will exist in a world with WRD permanently removed. If this is an issue identify its root causes and address it at the source. WRD has already been shown to not be that cause.

[AsianJoyKiller]

This is exactly what I am talking about. The meta being too bias towards defensive play and too reliant on positioning will not be solved by removing WRD. This meta existed before the glitch was removed and it will exist in a world with WRD permanently removed. If this is an issue identify its root causes and address it at the source. WRD has already been shown to not be that cause.

WRD may not be the sole cause, but it is a contributing factor, especially at higher skill levels.

[?FTD? eXeon]

A few things on your post then ill address these actual reasons, I did use subjective reasoning to tell you why I'm so adamant about this change but, I've also listed plenty of other reasons based on game balance, I would never use because its unfun as a reason for the change but it is why I will continue to argue against anyone who opposes the removal of the delay. You still can't even grasp how useful boosting in combat is....I dont even know what to say. And as for your final comment, as opposed to all the positive things the removal of raise delay will bring. 

 

(((Altered chasing meta, weapon choice meta (including making the Point D vulcan potentially trash (or more trash) in high tiered games), how different boost speeds with different weapons will effect this, how much more aggressive this might make the game, how burst weapons might be effected in the meta, how the Raider's ability might be effected, how turret modes figure into this new meta, Boostjumpshootboostjumpshoot being more viable to mitigate some of the lost momentum, and probably some other stuff I can't think of as I'm in no position to actually effect balance changes.)))

 

While none of these seem even close to a reason for not removing the delay, lets get to your concerns you finally came up with! Chasing is already a joke unless you're trying to chase an A in a C, removal of the delay will have little to no effect here. The point D vulcan is already almost never used, the removal of the delay will have little to no effect here. There were very few mechs that could utilize no raise delay to its maximum potential, while there didn't appear to be any noteable issue before to any of the players I associated with, they should definitely be watched if the raise delay is removed, removal of the raise delay may have an effect here that wasn't noticeable previously. Removal of the raise delay will not change how dominant defensive play is all that much but, it will make pushing slightly easier, removal of the raise delay will have a small effect here. Burst weapons like flak, heat, and others will be buffed indirectly by this, I would take this as a benefit of the raise delay removal, at the moment burst weapons are cast aside for any high dps sustain weapon and I would like to see a variety of weapons used personally, removal of the raise delay would have a small effect here.  The raiders ability wouldn't change at all, it would still be just as strong as it was before and achieving the exact same thing, increased speed and capability to shoot while boosting without having to stop, the removal of the raise delay will have no effect on this. Turret mode is not an argument I'll accept sorry, no one uses this ability, it is so bad the devs were working on removing all of them, using turret mode is always the worst decision you could make, removal of the raise delay would have no effect here because the turret mode player is already ded. Players who want to utilize boost jump shoot can use it as well now as they can after the removal, the difference? they fire as soon as they leave the ground vs right before they land on the ground again, removal of the raise delay would have a small effect here. None of the things you've pointed out here would change much at all. There is the obvious concern you and others have made that some mech weapon combo's may be problematic, this wasn't apparent to any of the top players before enough to request balance changes so I would be very surprised if something changed if the raise delay was removed. 

Edited by Exeon, 27 April 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[IareDave]

I guarntee that whoever is opposed to the delay has never dueled a high level player. A very common tactic of players is to kite. Fire off your burst when your target is coming around the corner, and you have .5s to boost away and regain your cooldowns. This playstyle is an exact opposite of my aggresive play but more importantly it is WAY too effective to simply play like a passive panzy than it is to play aggressive. The only tools you have against someone like this is to boost out of cover which I'm not 100% sure but I believe it pus you on radar and isn't always the ideal move. 

[crockrocket]

Not that I mind testing the concept, but it's worth mentioning that continued "discussion" doesn't indicate an unresolved debate.  What's important is who is continuing that discussion, and why.  In America, for example, the "discussion" around global warming continues even though ~99% of climate change scientists agree that's it's both a) a real thing and b) anthropogenic.  And the dissenting 1-2% are either being paid to publish dissenting articles, or have no reputation within the scientific community.  Add to that the fact that the "debate" is only a debate in America, and you've all signs pointing toward manufactured uncertainty being bought by a misinformed/ignorant populace.

Valid point. In this case though, I think testing would help convince the dissenting populace.

 

I never got to experience the time without delay, so I would like to see how things play without it. Testing just seems like a logical way to settle things here.

[Panzermanathod]

 

While none of these seem even close to a reason for not removing the delay

 

(((I said I had concerns. Not so much "Don't remove the delay for these reasons" moreso "Consider what meta changes will happen if it was removed, and don't act like it'll change almost nothing")))

 

lets get to your concerns you finally came up with!

 

(((Finally? Some of what I said I stated earlier in this thread, just to let you know, and some of it is me expounding on... well, also stuff I already said.)))

 

Chasing is already a joke unless you're trying to chase an A in a C, removal of the delay will have little to no effect here.

 

(((Chasing as a tactic does have its uses and its downfalls. The removal of the delay would make chasing and shooting enemies more viable because you can shoot faster after boosting.)))

 

The point D vulcan is already almost never used, the removal of the delay will have little to no effect here.

 

(((Vulcan was just an example, just not *the* example)))

 

 removal of the raise delay may have an effect here that wasn't noticeable previously.

 

(((A reason for my concern)))

 

  The raiders ability wouldn't change at all, it would still be just as strong as it was before and achieving the exact same thing, increased speed and capability to shoot while boosting without having to stop, the removal of the raise delay will have no effect on this.

 

(((So you are saying that no one's going to boost hop rapidly while shooting to have a similar effect? It's not a one to one comparison but as far as using burst weapons go those are similar enough tactics.)))

 

Turret mode is not an argument I'll accept sorry, no one uses this ability, it is so bad the devs were working on removing all of them, using turret mode is always the worst decision you could make, removal of the raise delay would have no effect here because the turret mode player is already ded.

 

(((And yet Turret mode is still a thing that people actually use and actually has a use, even if largely misused by newer players. Also, with that reasoning I could say the delay could remain because the devs took out the bug. So the removal of the turret is okay but the removal of the bug is not? It's not so much whether or not either is useful, but if you are saying "The devs wanted to remove Turret Mode and I agree with them" after saying "The devs wanted the bug removed, and did removed, and I disagree that there should be a delay in the first place", I'd suggest rewording.)))

 

Players who want to utilize boost jump shoot can use it as well now as they can after the removal, the difference? they fire as soon as they leave the ground vs right before they land on the ground again, removal of the raise delay would have a small effect here.

 

(((But it is one of a number of changes that would happen if the delay was removed.)))

 

None of the things you've pointed out here would change much at all. There is the obvious concern you and others have made that some mech weapon combo's may be problematic, this wasn't apparent to any of the top players before enough to request balance changes so I would be very surprised if something changed if the raise delay was removed. 

 

(((Well, as other have said, a test should be in order.

 

And what/when do you mean it was apparent to top players before enough to request balance changes? You mean after the exploit was removed? Or something else?)))

[CraftyDus]

Not that I mind testing the concept, but it's worth mentioning that continued "discussion" doesn't indicate an unresolved debate.  What's important is who is continuing that discussion, and why.  In America, for example, the "discussion" around global warming continues even though ~99% of climate change scientists agree that's it's both a) a real thing and b) anthropogenic.  And the dissenting 1-2% are either being paid to publish dissenting articles, or have no reputation within the scientific community.  Add to that the fact that the "debate" is only a debate in America, and you've all signs pointing toward manufactured uncertainty being bought by a misinformed/ignorant populace.

 

 

You an yer fancy schmancy book-lernin'

 

FINALLY

This thread is now a global warming debate.  

SO

The science doesn't conclusively indicate "anthropomorphic climate change" 

It's alarmist leftist propaganda

We've never been big fans of communism here 

 

also remove the delay, like it was, for fun, and personal developement

[Nept]

I suppose in this analogy you are the scientist.

Where did all this hay come from?

 

The point wasn't to draw a direct analogy between this forum discussion and the scientific consensus on global warming.  The point was to illustrate that continued discussion doesn't necessarily mean that a debate hasn't been resolved.

 

It's also great Ignorant American bait.