539 replies to this topic

[Ker4u]

very insightful  discussion but devs should not forget to #reducethedelay

[StubbornPuppet]

I never got to experience the time without delay, so I would like to see how things play without it. Testing just seems like a logical way to settle things here.

Again, there never was a time without the delay.  There was a time when some players knew how to get around the delay... and others didn't.  Once Adhesive fixed it so they couldn't jump to circumvent it... that's where the debate started.

[eth0]

I finally have a new thread to follow in the slow time at work.

#removeglobalwarming

[raging_squirrel]

Another self absorbed American hater...you're such a sad person....and of course one of the Off Topic forum champs here.....

 

*+

[AsianJoyKiller]

Again, there never was a time without the delay.  There was a time when some players knew how to get around the delay... and others didn't.  Once Adhesive fixed it so they couldn't jump to circumvent it... that's where the debate started.

Semantics.

 

If a person didn't know how to get around the delay when that was still possible, and thus never experienced the lack of delay, then that qualifies as "the time without the delay" for them.

[?FTD? eXeon]

 

I realize now I've wasted far too much time trying to convince you of the benefits of change. I'm glad you think you have logical reasoning for opposing this but, you dont. When asked for reasons why, you jumped to every possible thing you could think of that might change and you probably cant even fathom how it will change, you just think it will. We played for over a year with a bug to bypass the delay and in all that time there were no balance issues with anything you brought up, none, besides turret mode which is fuzzy bunny awful and was getting removed just like the delay should be.

 

p.s. No one uses turret mode, you may think people use turret mode but thats probably cause your mmr puts you in games with really bad players who know no better

[Panzermanathod]

I realize now I've wasted far too much time trying to convince you of the benefits of change. I'm glad you think you have logical reasoning for opposing this but, you dont.

 

(((So basically "You can't see things my way ergo you have no good reasoning".)))

 

When asked for reasons why, you jumped to every possible thing you could think of that might change and you probably cant even fathom how it will change, you just think it will.

 

(((I'm literally not the only one here who thinks this in this thread, even if the amount of perceived changes varies. EVEN YOU had noted that there will be changes. But even I admit I won't forsee every and all changes delay removal will bring.)))

 

We played for over a year with a bug to bypass the delay and in all that time there were no balance issues with anything you brought up, none,

 

(((And how long ago was that? For a bug that negated the delay only after jumping, at that. That apparently not everyone exploited from what I've heard.)))

 

besides turret mode which is fuzzy bunny awful and was getting removed just like the delay should be.

 

p.s. No one uses turret mode, you may think people use turret mode but thats probably cause your mmr puts you in games with really bad players who know no better

 

(((So no one uses turret mode except for the people who use turret mode. For someone who thinks their arguments are all logically sound your use of hyperbole is disturbing.)))

 

 

As an aside, I think the main reason why this is such a debate because we all have different ideas of what Hawken should be and how some would like Hawken to be. I guess that is obvious, but it might need to be restated. You can claim "gameplay improvements" all you want but it really boils down to preferences and ideals. Preferences are fine. Preferences are okay. Tests are even better.

[LoC_TR]

hmm.. this thread makes me tired. Exeon I don't know how you do it.

 

Let me get something straight here.. When were asking for the removal of the delay we're not asking the Devs to implement a boost-jump bug back into the game but its removal just after boosting. Now some say A classes will benefit the most from this, this is incorrect, from my perspective its implementation mostly benefits burst weaponry across the board such as; Grenade Launcher, TOW, MIRV, T-32, Breacher, Flak, T-32XT. Why is this? For a burst mech (eg. Raider, Scout, brawler) to be effective it can NOT just trade damage with a sustained mech (eg. Assault, Gren, Zerk ) blow for blow, you will lose, a burst mech has to utilize the boost-dodge to be effective! That requires you to boost and dodge out line of sight or to break the turn cap, now that .5 second delay plays a huge factor in how a player moves and aims against his/her target. In comparison for sustain mech the delay works in its favor, all you have to do is hold down that LMB and stay on target and you'll win, aside from that the assault can still use burst-play to its advantage if he/she feels it's necessary (the TOW). Look at the change in meta over the past year, it's not about how well you move anymore or how unpredictable you can be, it's about solid positioning and kiting your opponent back. So if the question is "will it change balance?" YES, "is the current game balanced" NO. You would obviously have to tweak deeps on some weapons they need to do that regardless. 

 

It's not like you can just buff burst damage either and we don't want to lower cooldowns anymore than they are. The burst weapons are balance imo as far as damage goes against sustained, the question is how do I use them effectively without putting myself is a terrible spot every time and going 1-for-1? With boost-delay.. it wasn't like "oh i can just exploit this bug and its a win-all-situation" It was necessary to boost-jump to have a chance of surviving in that situation, sometimes it worked and i'd get my shot off and sometimes it wouldn't.

 

I'll say it again. Before the delay was removed I had no idea it was there, I was just trying to be aggressive and my awesome brain worked it out for me. So assuming we removed the delay after boosting what issues may arise? The biggest issue I see is the Burst mechs ability to deal massive damage in close while breaking your turn-cap, the ability to boost-dodge and still get a shot off. By removing the delay you're not directly debuffing mechs like assault or zerker, these mechs benefit from it's delay as well just maybe not as much. Is this not something that we can balance around though? If your argument is that there would be no punishment for boosting, there are already a plethora of reasons why you shouldn't boost everywhere you go, especially when you want to be aggressive. First off you don't want to pop up on radar, second you don't separate yourself from your team, lastly you want to save your fuel for better maneuverability in combat.

 

Another issue with this is how much orb lord benefits from the removal of boost delay, if the strategy is to be defensive and kite the burst mechs there is no better choice in internal set-ups. 

 

In my own personal opinion is that the boost delay makes the dance seem elongated and my mech is unresponsive just because the animation doesn't look perfect. In the famous word of Dew "Stupid."

 

EDIT:

As an aside, I think the main reason why this is such a debate because we all have different ideas of what Hawken should be and how some would like Hawken to be. I guess that is obvious, but it might need to be restated. You can claim "gameplay improvements" all you want but it really boils down to preferences and ideals. Preferences are fine. Preferences are okay. Tests are even better.

 

We've tested it. For 3 years we've been testing it. 

Edited by LoC_TR, 27 April 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[Kopra]

The game is already broken on animations... when you dodge and shoot, the weapon opposite to the direction you're dodging to is facing the ground while the bullets or projectiles are going forward. This is something that I've literally never seen anyone complain about. Ever.

I'm fairly sure that people wouldn't complain about weapon snapping after boosting either.

 

Spoiler

Edited by Kopra, 27 April 2015 - 04:25 PM.

[Xacius]

hmm.. this thread makes me tired. Exeon I don't know how you do it.

 

By removing the delay you're not directly debuffing mechs like assault or zerker, these mechs benefit from it's delay as well just maybe not as much. Is this not something that we can balance around though? If your argument is that there would be no punishment for boosting, there are already a plethora of reasons why you shouldn't boost everywhere you go, especially when you want to be aggressive. First off you don't want to pop up on radar, second you don't separate yourself from your team, lastly you want to save your fuel for better maneuverability in combat.

Gonna expand on this point here.  Sustained mechs benefited from it as well, though not as much.  

 

Breaking it down:

Burst weapons benefit more from the delay because users can transition between firing and maneuvering without sacrificing DPS.  Shoot ->  boost while reload timer ticks down -> repeat.  However, there are inherent downsides to this approach.  If you maneuver at very high speeds to evade (thereby making yourself harder to hit), you're also making aiming more difficult.  This is especially true with the turn speed cap, as you can potentially maneuver out of firing position.  Everyone knows the noob that stands still in a sharpshooter in low MMR lobbies.  There's a reason why they do that.  

 

Further, missing a burst with a 1.5s reload (breacher, for instance) is far more detrimental than missing with a couple SMC shots and reacquiring the target.  As far as the current weapon balance goes, a removal of the delay would bring burst/sustained closer to balanced, if not almost perfect.  

Edited by Xacius, 27 April 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Xacius]

 

 

What is the biggest reason to remove this mechanic? It is UNFUN.

 

(((So you've harped at me for using subjective reasoning then use subjective reasoning yourself. I))

 

I responded to your second issue which was "if it doesn't work dont fix it" paragraph, go read your first issue then the first 15 or 20 words of your second issue and you can plainly see you counter your own argument.

 

(((Oh, now I see. 

 

Still sticking to what I said, though. I am *concerned* over the balance shifting that would be caused if/when the delay is removed. That is one reason. Another reason isI don't think it's "not so much there's such negative repercussions" (and not that there aren't any) moreso it isn't necessary to change it.)))

 

No, I think you're just scared of change in this regard. Please let me know what you think the removal of the delay would do to balance that would be an issue, I'm sure I've got experience in any situation you can imagine without the delay, I'm sure there are others that could answer your concerns with actual experience with this.

 

(((Altered chasing meta, weapon choice meta (including making the Point D vulcan potentially trash (or more trash) in high tiered games), how different boost speeds with different weapons will effect this, how much more aggressive this might make the game, how burst weapons might be effected in the meta, how the Raider's ability might be effected, how turret modes figure into this new meta, Boostjumpshootboostjumpshoot being more viable to mitigate some of the lost momentum, and probably some other stuff I can't think of as I'm in no position to actually effect balance changes.)))

 

The last sentence blows my mind, you have no clue what you're talking about if you think boosting is never useful offensively. I will admit the rest of your argument here is sound but, I have a question for you. You're trading off speed for damage when you're boosting but why do you have to lose damage and gain nothing for .5 seconds? Doesn't sound very balanced to me.

 

(((Never said it's never used offensively. Just that, given other methods of moving and shooting, using the boost as an offensive maneuver wasn't particularly useful in comparison.

 

And to answer your question, again, boosting trades offensive capability for speed, with that half second delay being part of the trade off as well. Other games have used some means of extra speed but gave it some negative tradeoff as well. Could be a simple limited pool of turbo charges, or be it lowered handling, lower health (Wipeout, boost and health were tied to the same meter), Armored Core had negative repercussions for Boosting and Over Boosting if they aren't used properly, potential to launch yourself off into some stage hazard, etc. I see the delay as yet another trade off in sacrificing offensive capability for mobility.  )))

 

 

 So you didn't really prove anything about people being opposed to change, if you come up with a decent reason to keep the delay I'd believe you weren't just opposed to change.

 

(((I said my point is that I could blindly say people was opposed to change and that it shouldn't be done. Don't say I'm opposed to change because I disagree with you and that you don't find my reasoning good enough. "Opposed to change" covers a lot of ground.)))

 

 

For now all I hear is 'Hawken is the way I like it and keep it like that!' which screams CHANGEITUS.

 

(((As opposed to, what, "Hawken isn't the way I like it so change it!" ?)))

 

 

 

"(((Altered chasing meta, weapon choice meta (including making the Point D vulcan potentially trash (or more trash) in high tiered games), how different boost speeds with different weapons will effect this, how much more aggressive this might make the game, how burst weapons might be effected in the meta, how the Raider's ability might be effected, how turret modes figure into this new meta, Boostjumpshootboostjumpshoot being more viable to mitigate some of the lost momentum, and probably some other stuff I can't think of as I'm in no position to actually effect balance changes.)))"

 

Gonna respond to this section.  

 

 

That's the thing.  You can speculate as much as you want about this topic, but the reality is such that there are very few players that utilized the delay bypass extensively during its lifetime, let alone analyzed it as a balance metric and determined how it impacted the meta.  There's a reason why I stirred up a fuzzy bunnyng shitstorm when its bypass was removed: it negatively impacted both the feel of gameplay and weapon balance.  

 

I'll respond to your concerns in sequential order.  

 

"Altered chasing meta, weapon choice meta (including making the Point D vulcan potentially trash (or more trash) in high tiered games)"

The chase meta is incredibly unbalanced at the moment.  Defensive positioning > offensive positioning.  In this regard, I'm not going to reiterate what's already been stated in previous pages on this thread.  

 

Point-D is pretty trash regardless.  It's always been lackluster/out-classed by more convenient weapons.  The delay removal doesn't change that.  The weapon needs a mechanics overhaul, and should probably work much like the Incinerator's spin-up weapons.  

 

 

"how different boost speeds with different weapons will effect this, how much more aggressive this might make the game, how burst weapons might be effected in the meta,"

 

I'll reiterate: The game was far more balanced with the delay bypass than it is currently.  

 

Note the following: 

 

The only thing weapon delay does is dumb down the game into a dps race. You have orbs? You win. You both have orbs? Better hope you don't miss a TOW. You're about to overheat? Boost-dodge a bit until you're ready. The mechanic essentially turns every sustain weapon into a 'point D vulcan', meaning, if you decide to be fancy and boost dodge around with your SMC throwing TOWS then you are simply sacrificing valuable time when the current optimal play is to strafe, dodge when you can, and win the dps.

If I'm in an open engagement against another assault, we both have the same builds, similar skill level, I will win guarnteed if he even thinks about boosting simply because he lost .5s+ of time that could of been used to dps.

 

 

Dave hit the nail on the head with that analysis.  That is exactly how most encounters play out in 2200+ lobbies.  It's not exciting, and it favors dodge spam and standing around over mixing up movement and outmaneuvering your opponent.  The current meta is in a poor state, imo.  

 

I'm completely fine with a more aggressive game, given the current unbalanced defensive gameplay.  

 

 

"how the Raider's ability might be effected"

In this context, the raider's ability is negligible for numerous reasons.  Primarily: in a game with over 15 classes, If you have to nerf or adjust a universal gameplay mechanic to make a single class's ability balanced, then you probably need to look at that class's ability instead of adjusting the mechanic.  

 

"how turret modes figure into this new meta"

Turret mode is a joke mechanic and has been since day 1.  Before the old devs gave up, they were slowly phasing it out.  The Gren's ability was already changed and the Brawler's new ability was in the works.  

 

"Boostjumpshootboostjumpshoot being more viable to mitigate some of the lost momentum, and probably some other stuff I can't think of as I'm in no position to actually effect balance changes.)))"

 

I mean this sincerely: if you believe that you're not in a position to effect balance changes, then how do you think you'd do in weighing in on a mechanic that alters the current state of balance?  

[Panzermanathod]

That's the thing.  You can speculate as much as you want about this topic, but the reality is such that there are very few players that utilized the delay bypass extensively during its lifetime, let alone analyzed it as a balance metric and determined how it impacted the meta.  There's a reason why I stirred up a fuzzy bunnyng shitstorm when its bypass was removed: it negatively impacted both the feel of gameplay and weapon balance.  

 

(((So we agree that the delay *does* effect balance, yes?

 

Also I'm not equating the exploit to the outright removal of the delay. The delay removal would not only offer more than the exploit did, but it wouldn't be a feature that only a few were conscious of.

 

Also, this isn't meant to be a point but I find the concept of "It was more balanced when we exploited a bug not everyone knew about" kinda funny.)))

 

 

"how turret modes figure into this new meta"

Turret mode is a joke mechanic and has been since day 1.  Before the old devs gave up, they were slowly phasing it out.  The Gren's ability was already changed and the Brawler's new ability was in the works.  

 

(((Okay. So the high MMR guys don't use it. I get that. I've gotten that a while back. But there *are* people who use it, and it is still a mechanic. )))

 

"Boostjumpshootboostjumpshoot being more viable to mitigate some of the lost momentum, and probably some other stuff I can't think of as I'm in no position to actually effect balance changes.)))"

 

I mean this sincerely: if you believe that you're not in a position to effect balance changes, then how do you think you'd do in weighing in on a mechanic that alters the current state of balance?  

 

(((As fine as I've been doing, for better or for worse. I disagree with the delay being removed...but it's gonna be removed at this rate since people either find it clunky or just want Hawken to be more aggressive. I don't fully agree with some of the reasoning, and the ones who are for the removal are louder than I am.

 

Being that I am neither one who could physically change the balance in any way, nor am I in the majority, no I do not feel I'm in a position to effect balance changes. Doesn't stop me from giving my opinion, though.)))

[AsianJoyKiller]

and the ones who are for the removal are louder than I am.

It less about volume, and more about quality. The logical quality of your arguments is poor and, in some cases, nonexistent.

 

Even if we ignored objective issues, the fact is, your subjective opinion carries less weight due to your lack of experience when it comes to playing without the weapons delay. All you can do is speculate on what you may not like about something you've never experienced.

 

On the other hand, people who have played without the delay can state what does and doesn't work for them based on firsthand experience.

[crockrocket]

 

 

All you can do is speculate on what you may not like about something you've never experienced.

And this is why I want a test weekend. I think I know which way I lean, but I wouldn't know until I experience it. Same with everyone else who wasn't around then, hell, same with everyone who's memory is fuzzy.

 

I see absolutely no harm in testing something for a couple days. Just fuzzing try it.

[IareDave]

 

Point-D is pretty trash 

Edited by IareDave, 28 April 2015 - 01:24 AM.

[?FTD? eXeon]

And this is why I want a test weekend. I think I know which way I lean, but I wouldn't know until I experience it. Same with everyone else who wasn't around then, hell, same with everyone who's memory is fuzzy.

 

I see absolutely no harm in testing something for a couple days. Just fuzzing try it.

There is no harm in testing it it but there is no way to test it at this time. They're currently rebuilding the systems left behind from the beautiful work of Adhesive.  I know Josh is probably unlikely to comment on whether he is willing to test this once its possible so until I see some patch notes involving some raise delay removal/reduction or a confirmation it will never happen I'm going to try to keep this topic active.

[Panzermanathod]

It less about volume, and more about quality. The logical quality of your arguments is poor and, in some cases, nonexistent.

 

Even if we ignored objective issues, the fact is, your subjective opinion carries less weight due to your lack of experience when it comes to playing without the weapons delay. All you can do is speculate on what you may not like about something you've never experienced.

 

On the other hand, people who have played without the delay can state what does and doesn't work for them based on firsthand experience.

 

So am I inherently wrong about this whole idea because I wasn't here when the bug was around and I don't think that [jump exploit few were familiar with a while back] and [built upon feature everyone will know about now] are similar enough in the grand scheme of things to say "Well if there was more balance with a jump exploit bug then of course it being extended to no delay at all after any boost is the same thing"?

 

Yes, I can only speculate about what changes may happen when the delay is removed. Older players do have more experience in playing without the delay, but it was a jump exploit bug. When it comes to the ground *no one* has any experience with what no delay has on it. Even other people here know that there will be some sort of change in balance when the delay is removed.

 

And yes my only real objective reasoning is "because boost with delay is fine given what the boost is", it's all moot because I wasn't here to experience the joys of exploiting a bug? I've played games where movement and shooting are allowed. I've played games where movement and shooting weren't allowed. I've played games where faster methods of travel had ramifications which would screw the player if they didn't know what they were doing. I don't find the delay so much of a bother as to want it's exclusion. I don't find the delay clunky because the game was built around it. Even the original devs, who were phasing out turret mode, as far as I  know, kept the delay in because, hey, going fast isn't always so hot.

 

 

You know what, why not have it where boosting for under 1-1.5 seconds keeps weapons up, but boosting over that will mean the delay? Allows for more evasive maneuvers like you want but keeps most of the boosting was intended to do, for better or for worse.

 

Of course I'm pretty sure no one is gonna agree with this.

[Superkamikazee]

Here's the simplest argument I can come up with

 

Why should the negative side of boosting extend past its benefit?

 

 

If you want slow lumbering mechs go play MWO please. I do not see how removing the delay will speed up hawken at all, the mechs will still boost, walk, turn, fly just as fast as before BUT, you'll be able to actually utilize all those movement options even in a firefight without the delay, unlike now.

 

Panzer, no one wants to shoot while moving....well, I'm sure some might and those people are insane. I merely want the freedom of movement I once had that no one complained about until people knew about. I'm sure there may be balance issues players didnt exploit well enough when it was possible to do so but, those are fixable through other means, we dont need an excessive negative impact on boosting, one of the  very few movement options in hawken.

 

No reason to get cynical. I don't believe anyone wants Hawken to become so slow and lumbering that it becomes some MWO clone. Hawken was plenty fast in 2012's open beta. It's just become significantly faster, due to a number of changes, over it's significantly lengthy "beta" development period. Whether those changes have been for the better or worse, that's purely anecdotal. The only analyitics we have to defend either opinion is player retention, what did the players like best, which should be cautiously used. 

 

It's only natural top players, 2200+ MMR or so, want a faster game.They've excelled within the currently speedy meta and perhaps have become bored, idk. Does that mean their opinion should be globally accepted as what's best for the game, or what the general non forum visiting player wants / needs? Which opinions better serve the general player base vs a tiny fraction of that player base? That could be debated at nausium.

 

I may have gotten a bit too invested in this discussion earlier, but I cannot agree with the opinion that simply being good at the game means that players opinion somehow holds more merit for what's best for Hawken. If someone feels Hawken should become faster, more arena focused, then sure I can see why they would like the delay removed. Someone who favors a slower pace (older build), perhaps would like to revisit the time before AC, #increasethespeeds etc. I can see why they're a bit resistant to remove the delay campaign.

[?FTD? eXeon]

No reason to get cynical. I don't believe anyone wants Hawken to become so slow and lumbering that it becomes some MWO clone. Hawken was plenty fast in 2012's open beta. It's just become significantly faster, due to a number of changes, over it's significantly lengthy "beta" development period. Whether those changes have been for the better or worse, that's purely anecdotal. The only analyitics we have to defend either opinion is player retention, what did the players like best, which should be cautiously used. 

 

It's only natural top players, 2200+ MMR or so, want a faster game.They've excelled within the currently speedy meta and perhaps have become bored, idk. Does that mean their opinion should be globally accepted as what's best for the game, or what the general non forum visiting player wants / needs? Which opinions better serve the general player base vs a tiny fraction of that player base? That could be debated at nausium.

 

I may have gotten a bit too invested in this discussion earlier, but I cannot agree with the opinion that simply being good at the game means that players opinion somehow holds more merit for what's best for Hawken. If someone feels Hawken should become faster, more arena focused, then sure I can see why they would like the delay removed. Someone who favors a slower pace (older build), perhaps would like to revisit the time before AC, #increasethespeeds etc. I can see why they're a bit resistant to remove the delay campaign.

Closed beta speeds were faster than they are now(not air iirc).  Removing the delay does in no way increase the speed of hawken, it just lets you utilize all the speed that's been here all along. No one is saying because they are better that their opinion is more valid, it just so happens that they are the majority of players who have experience playing hawken without a delay.

 

Player retention has a lot of issues with it that don't involve any of the shifts in gameplay we've seen over the last 3 years, this isn't even slightly useful in this discussion imo.

[?FTD? eXeon]

Even the original devs, who were phasing out turret mode, as far as I  know, kept the delay in because, hey, going fast isn't always so hot.

The only reason the original devs gave was 'because the animations dont matchup' iirc, ajk has explained a few times in this thread how this is considered a bad idea in the gaming industry.

[Panzermanathod]

And yet the delay remained. I doubt it was purely for animation reasons. They were putting in work to remove turret mode but not in removing the delay sounds like they had more reasoning.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I may have gotten a bit too invested in this discussion earlier, but I cannot agree with the opinion that simply being good at the game means that players opinion somehow holds more merit for what's best for Hawken.

It's not about who's better. It's about experience with what is in question. And even if their MMR was say, 1300, but they had utilized the lack of delay, their opinion would hold more weight.

 

Let's say you were to take my car out for a drive, but you wanted to know how it handled beforehand. Now, you could go on the internet and read about how that model handles overall, but that's still not going to give you the specific knowledge of how my car handles. 3rd party accounts aren't going to tell you that the gas pedal doesn't kick in until you're depress it about half and inch, or that the brake pedal is on a hair trigger.

 

And even if you were told about things like that beforehand, that still doesn't give you the same understanding that actually driving the car would. Raw knowledge still doesn't give you the "feel" of the pedals. The muscle-memory and instinct on how to use it without a thought.

 

The issue here is, people who have never used the lack-of-delay cannot fully comprehend what they are talking about.

 

Can you seriously tell me that you could hold opinions of those, who do not fully understand what they are talking about, equal to those who do?

 

Who do you trust more to have a well-formed opinion about driving a car?

Someone who's driven a car, or someone who's only read about driving cars?

 

 

And yet the delay remained. I doubt it was purely for animation reasons. They were putting in work to remove turret mode but not in removing the delay sounds like they had more reasoning.

They also stopped development and went out of business before they could finish those balance changes. And it's not like the delay change was made all that long before then.

The argument of "they had a good reason" when the company went out of business, and had such a poor history with balance (coughcoughascension), is rather weak, and ignore the fact that they went under before they would have been able to reconsider.

[Panzermanathod]

Meteor could have removed delay. They didn't, and they are now no longer currently relevant. The only thing they did do is remove an exploit so that the delay remained. Whether or not they (which as you said had poor history of balance) would have removed it is conjecture at best. Saying that they went under before they would have been able to reconsider is kinda pretentious, unless someone here can rightfully say that they had plans on removing the delay (and not "well they would have removed it one day").

 

I've stated my concerns over balance issues that lack of a delay would bring (which is, again, subjectively not the same as it would be something that is publically known vs a bug certain people exploited, and objectively not the same as the exploit simply by virtue of the exploit not working on the ground), but that can be worked out. Otherwise I've been saying that the delay is fine as is. My argument isn't "delay is better than no delay despite me never playing the game without it", it's that, given what the boost is in the mechanics of the game, it's fine as is. Of course, I also had my idea where delay is determined by length of boost but, eh, again I doubt anyone actually would like it.

 

 

 

And even I said that no delay should be at least be tested. I'm not unwilling to give it a try.

Edited by Panzermanathod, 28 April 2015 - 09:48 AM.

[IareDave]

If you never played the game without the delay, then your opinion has no merit. 

[Panzermanathod]

If you never played the game without the delay, then your opinion has no merit. 

THAT'S THE ANSWER I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR ALL ALONG.

[AsianJoyKiller]

THAT'S THE ANSWER I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR ALL ALONG.

Even though it's not completely true?

[Superkamikazee]

Closed beta speeds were faster than they are now(not air iirc).  Removing the delay does in no way increase the speed of hawken, it just lets you utilize all the speed that's been here all along. No one is saying because they are better that their opinion is more valid, it just so happens that they are the majority of players who have experience playing hawken without a delay.

 

Player retention has a lot of issues with it that don't involve any of the shifts in gameplay we've seen over the last 3 years, this isn't even slightly useful in this discussion imo.

 

It's been brought up a few times already, in this thread in fact. I put a cautionary warning about my player retention statement. At this point there's too many factors on what caused Hawkens player exedous throughout the entirety of the beta. Coming up with a conclusive reason might be too difficult. 

 

It's not about who's better. It's about experience with what is in question. And even if their MMR was say, 1300, but they had utilized the lack of delay, their opinion would hold more weight.

 

Let's say you were to take my car out for a drive, but you wanted to know how it handled beforehand. Now, you could go on the internet and read about how that model handles overall, but that's still not going to give you the specific knowledge of how my car handles. 3rd party accounts aren't going to tell you that the gas pedal doesn't kick in until you're depress it about half and inch, or that the brake pedal is on a hair trigger.

 

And even if you were told about things like that beforehand, that still doesn't give you the same understanding that actually driving the car would. Raw knowledge still doesn't give you the "feel" of the pedals. The muscle-memory and instinct on how to use it without a thought.

 

The issue here is, people who have never used the lack-of-delay cannot fully comprehend what they are talking about.

 

Can you seriously tell me that you could hold opinions of those, who do not fully understand what they are talking about, equal to those who do?

 

Who do you trust more to have a well-formed opinion about driving a car?

Someone who's driven a car, or someone who's only read about driving cars?

 

 

They also stopped development and went out of business before they could finish those balance changes. And it's not like the delay change was made all that long before then.

The argument of "they had a good reason" when the company went out of business, and had such a poor history with balance (coughcoughascension), is rather weak, and ignore the fact that they went under before they would have been able to reconsider.

 

Not sure the car analogy you're trying to make makes much sense. I know I shouldn't be responding, but I guess I'll play ball lol. I've played the game, I've played other shooters, if I'd had never played a shooter in my life your comparision would be applicable (never driven a car). Since I've driven the car, and other cars (played the game), I can provide an opinion on the matter. 

 

The delay discussion is not rocket science, it's a simple change, and I understand what that change will fundamanetally do to combat. All this comes down to is player preference, that preference being what they'd prefer hawken to play like. 

 

Now before I get attacked because my opinion goes against what the boys club feels is right, I've always had the opinion that making the game faster, lighter feeling, snappier, a bit more twitchy, making Hawken MORE of an arena wasn't necessarily the best decision. But that decision wasn't, and isn't mine to make. All I can do is voice my opinion, and perhaps if there were more people still around from early OB, they may have agreed with me, maybe not. Now I'm also not suggesting that high tier players are wrong if they enjoy the very fast paced arena action, that's just not something I'm a huge fan of personally. I do enjoy the mechs, art style, and community so I've stuck around, if the gameplay ever becomes too far out of my level of acceptability I simply won't play anymore.

 

So anyways, I'll agree to disagree, but guys please don't patronize me because my opinion conflicts with others who feel they are right. Curious to see when CapnJosh and the team take Hawken. 

[comic_sans]

Meteor could have removed delay. They didn't, and they are now no longer currently relevant. The only thing they did do is remove an exploit so that the delay remained. Whether or not they (which as you said had poor history of balance) would have removed it is conjecture at best. Saying that they went under before they would have been able to reconsider is kinda pretentious, unless someone here can rightfully say that they had plans on removing the delay (and not "well they would have removed it one day").

 

Not to make you feel like you're getting jumped on (you are the most vocal proponent of the delay, so it's gonna happen), but I feel like all of this is a moot point.  Who cares what a mismanaged failed company's plans were, or what their reasoning was?  It seems odd to look to a perpetual bungler for an example to follow going forward, and it seems just as odd to disagree with an entity that is no longer relevant.

 

Again, sorry if I cherry picked or just copied what someone else said; this is a long thread with a lot of repetition, but as it goes on, I'm finding my position on the delay, which is for its removal, to be solidifying.

Edited by comic_sans, 28 April 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Not sure the car analogy you're trying to make makes much sense. I know I shouldn't be responding, but I guess I'll play ball lol. I've played the game, I've played other shooters, if I'd had never played a shooter in my life your comparision would be applicable (never driven a car). Since I've driven the car, and other cars (played the game), I can provide an opinion on the matter.

The analogy, the main one in my post I spent multiple paragraphs on, still makes sense.

 

Just because you've driven other cars does not mean you know exactly what it's like to drive my car. This is why the opinion of someone who hasn't played without the delay carries less weight, but is not entirely irrelevant.

If you're going to "play ball" perhaps you should focus on the right thing...

[IareDave]

Even though it's not completely true?

Go talk to a WW2 vet about how you think the war went based on the books you read and the shows you watched. If you were having a casual conversation then that's fantastic, but if you were trying to persuade him to see your point of view you'd get a laugh and a head shake. It's one thing to have knowledge on a subject but it's an entirely different realm when you actually have experience on the topic.

[Superkamikazee]

The analogy, the main one in my post I spent multiple paragraphs on, still makes sense.

 

Just because you've driven other cars does not mean you know exactly what it's like to drive my car. This is why the opinion of someone who hasn't played without the delay carries less weight, but is not entirely irrelevant.

If you're going to "play ball" perhaps you should focus on the right thing...

 

Yeah that still doesn't make sense. If for example you said there's a shake up front, could be wheel balance, if there's shake and a grinding sound, perhaps the hubs on it's way out. If you mentioned there's a clunk in the rear over bumps, bad struts, end links, bushings etc. I could provide an infinite number of examples, but what I'm getting at is I'd have a pretty good idea what could be going on, if your description was accurate. Now of course there's no way for certain I could gaurentee my opnion regarding your car troubles was 100% accurate, that would require trouble shooting, dissambly, part replacement, maybe that new part didn't fix the problem, lets try another part. That's typically how car diagnostics works, but a lot depends on the issue. You analogy used driveablity, which is actually easier to diagnose than engine trouble, loss of power etc. 

 

For an analogy to work sir, you first need to understand what you're trying to compare your argument to. In this cae cars, you apparently know very little about cars making your argument weak. in conclusion, car trouble diagnosis has very little to do with gameplay mechanics, and this discussion is duuuumb lol.

[Nept]

Been busy the last week, so haven't had time to participate on the forums.  While I'm thinking about it, though, I did want to mention to superkamikazee that he'd probably find the game much more slow/manageable were he not using a controller.  Just noticed it last night while watching his 3v3 recordings.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Yeah that still doesn't make sense. If for example you said there's a shake up front, could be wheel balance, if there's shake and a grinding sound, perhaps the hubs on it's way out. If you mentioned there's a clunk in the rear over bumps, bad struts, end links, bushings etc. I could provide an infinite number of examples, but what I'm getting at is I'd have a pretty good idea what could be going on, if your description was accurate. Now of course there's no way for certain I could gaurentee my opnion regarding your car troubles was 100% accurate, that would require trouble shooting, dissambly, part replacement, maybe that new part didn't fix the problem, lets try another part. That's typically how car diagnostics works, but a lot depends on the issue. You analogy used driveablity, which is actually easier to diagnose than engine trouble, loss of power etc. 

 

For an analogy to work sir, you first need to understand what you're trying to compare your argument to. In this cae cars, you apparently know very little about cars making your argument weak. in conclusion, car trouble diagnosis has very little to do with gameplay mechanics, and this discussion is duuuumb lol.

Considering that you are the one who turned it into something about car trouble diagnosis, you just proved you are the one who doesn't understand what is being compared. So if you are feeling that this conversation is dumb, I'm afraid to tell you that is a problem is originating from yourself.

 

I don't have to know how the nuts and bolts of my car works to know how it drives and gain experience in how it handles from driving it. Likewise, I don't have to know how weapons raise delay is coded in order to understand how playing with and without it feels, and how to handle a mech with it in place or removed.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 28 April 2015 - 11:50 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

That couch life has turned me into a controller lover. I'll give m/kb a shot on the desktop, it's going to be a long and difficult journey. I'll also need a wired mouse now.

[Panzermanathod]

Even though it's not completely true?

Never mind that I was joking around, his reply is, if exaggerated, kind of the mindset you and some others have for people who aren't for the delay removal.

 

 

your subjective opinion carries less weight due to your lack of experience when it comes to playing without the weapons delay

 

On the other hand, people who have played without the delay can state what does and doesn't work for them based on firsthand experience.

[Superkamikazee]

Considering that you are the one who turned it into something about car trouble diagnosis, you just proved you are the one who doesn't understand what is being compared. So if you are feeling that this conversation is dumb, I'm afraid to tell you that is a problem is originating from yourself.

 

I don't have to know how the nuts and bolts of my car works to know how it drives and gain experience in how it handles from driving it. Likewise, I don't have to know how weapons raise delay is coded in order to understand how playing with and without it feels, and how to handle a mech with it in place or removed.

 

I don't have to play without the delay to understand how removing said delay changes gameplay. 

 

Finally, I'm just going to play the game. If the delay is removed, I'll adapt and keep playing. Doesn't mean I'm in favor of it, or any of the past #Campaigns. If there's any changes that break the experience for me, I'll simply stop playing. No harm, no foul, life goes on. Hopefully enough people enjoy any of the future changes, be they to slow things down, or speed things up, and Hawken gains popularity / success. 

 

I have an opinion, others do as well. We'll find out what the right or wrong one is eventually. 

Edited by Superkamikazee, 28 April 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[Silverfire]

That couch life has turned me into a controller lover. I'll give m/kb a shot on the desktop, it's going to be a long and difficult journey. I'll also need a wired mouse now.

 

Game with a wireless mouse like me.  I can still play competitively.

[Xacius]

I don't have to play without the delay to understand how removing said delay changes gameplay. 

 

You're correct on that front, kind of.  I believe what AJK is arguing is that you don't know how significant the gameplay changes are.  

 

Anyone with average processing capabilities can understand that the delay is going to effect gameplay, especially considering the fact that we've spelled it out numerous times already.  Lol.  

 

The significance of the delay on gameplay is pretty big, and to argue against it without knowing exactly what the significance is, let alone its degree of severity, is pointless.  

Edited by Xacius, 28 April 2015 - 06:26 PM.

[Xacius]

Game with a wireless mouse like me.  I can still play competitively.

IZ THT Y U GOT REKT EARLEAR?

[Grollourdo]

I think the delay should stay ... Its a negative to being fast....

If we ask to remove it it think it would be like if we asked to be able to walk around and shoot while in repair mode....