539 replies to this topic

[?FTD? eXeon]

 

 

(((I said that the exploit, which was canceling the delay with a jump, and removing the delay altogether are objectively different. I never said anything about walking)))

How are jumping and canceling the delay and the delay being cancelled all together any different? What does the ability to walk after boosting and have no delay accomplish that jumping after boosting does not?

[IareDave]

I agree with how you define offensive and defensive play, my comment was mainly based on your comment of 'taking higher ground'. I assumed you meant you were using the pillars as a defensive position since they make heat cannon far easier to hit on anyone not at equal height or higher usually. How exactly are you forcing players out into the open though, I'd like to use this if you'd explain it, your 'push them until i get them in a suitable spot' statement I mean. I've always been a big fan of open engagements, pushing in on a SS from the opposite side of prosk has to be one of the most fun things possible in this game.

If it's a map with a lot of cover, I use radar tricks. One example, if I'm facing someone in the test arena, both assaults, and we are on either side of the pillars I'll occasionally pull off a boost/dodge back and forth knowing that they are paying careful attention to the radar and then fool them into thinking I'm going one way, and even if they pick up on it and aim at the correct location I'm heading I can usually snag in a hit before them due to turn rate cap. It makes a bit more sense in practice and it's something I never see others do except myself, and Xacius has used it on me a few times. 

 

In an attempt to bring this back to topic, there really isn't too much you can do to play aggressive unless you use splash weaponry such as the heat, or gaining the high ground such as the top of pillars which render defensive play useless. Both of which may not be considered aggressive plays in every situation but it's a way for me to get them into my dps trap. 

[Panzermanathod]

How are jumping and canceling the delay and the delay being cancelled all together any different? What does the ability to walk after boosting and have no delay accomplish that jumping after boosting does not?

 

I repeat what I said before, it's similar to X-ism and V/A-ism in Street Fighter Alpha 3 when it comes to blocking. You can't say they all have the same capabilities in blocking because you cannot air block in X-ism by default, whereas V/A-ism allows blocking in the air and on the ground.

 

Likewise, in Hawken there is a ground game and an air game. Having the no delay in the air is not having no delay at all. Similar in function, yes, but no delay would, obviously, include remaining on the ground. You cannot say having no delay after jumping is exactly the same as having no delay at all.

[comic_sans]

If it's a map with a lot of cover, I use radar tricks. One example, if I'm facing someone in the test arena, both assaults, and we are on either side of the pillars I'll occasionally pull off a boost/dodge back and forth knowing that they are paying careful attention to the radar and then fool them into thinking I'm going one way, and even if they pick up on it and aim at the correct location I'm heading I can usually snag in a hit before them due to turn rate cap. It makes a bit more sense in practice and it's something I never see others do except myself, and Xacius has used it on me a few times. 

 

It's also fun to be behind one of the pillars, and pretend to boost up to the ledge or the top, but pop around at ground level.

[Amidatelion]

I am twelve years old.

[?FTD? eXeon]

I repeat what I said before, it's similar to X-ism and V/A-ism in Street Fighter Alpha 3 when it comes to blocking. You can't say they all have the same capabilities in blocking because you cannot air block in X-ism by default, whereas V/A-ism allows blocking in the air and on the ground.

 

Likewise, in Hawken there is a ground game and an air game. Having the no delay in the air is not having no delay at all. Similar in function, yes, but no delay would, obviously, include remaining on the ground. You cannot say having no delay after jumping is exactly the same as having no delay at all.

You've made a comparison to a game completely diferent from hawken, I want to know how no delay in hawken is different from no delay only in the air. You say those are different and they probably are, but how is air vs both different in hawken.

[Panzermanathod]

Using a different game genre, in this context, does not hurt my point. Having an ability in one instance is not the same as having the ability in multiple instances.

 

And I will ask you this... how is no delay on the ground different than delay on the ground? You're telling me that no delay by jumping and no delay at all are the exact same, with no changes in the metagame?

[Merl61]

Attention thread. Most of the people complaining about the delay left Hawken when things went bad. Hawken is Hawken. Not what you left Hawekn for. Stop trying to change Hawken. The delay makes you *think* about boosting and employ advanced tactics (such as hopping around a corner so your weps come up as you are coming into visual contact with your enemy). In short, get gud. And yes, I know exactly who I'm talking to. Bring on the hate. I'll take it all back when you tell me you played through the whole ordeal. 

[Hyginos]

Attention thread. Most of the people complaining about the delay left Hawken when things went bad. Hawken is Hawken. Not what you left Hawekn for. Stop trying to change Hawken. The delay makes you *think* about boosting and employ advanced tactics (such as hopping around a corner so your weps come up as you are coming into visual contact with your enemy). In short, get gud. And yes, I know exactly who I'm talking to. Bring on the hate. I'll take it all back when you tell me you played through the whole ordeal. 

 

"I played through the whole ordeal"

 

Reduce the delay.

[?FTD? eXeon]

I continued playing hawken as much as I was before the delay removal after it was removed. Participating in scrims and TPG matches without the delay, quitting hawken and more sadly TPG when me and a few friends got more interested in another game while adhesive remained silent and died.

 

 

Using a different game genre, in this context, does not hurt my point. Having an ability in one instance is not the same as having the ability in multiple instances.

 

And I will ask you this... how is no delay on the ground different than delay on the ground? You're telling me that no delay by jumping and no delay at all are the exact same, with no changes in the metagame?

yes, I'm saying that because you could jump and remove the delay you had the same opportunities as someone who theoretically would stop boosting and had no delay whether he jumped or not. Care to explain how either are different if you think otherwise instead of comparing them to other things, explain how in hawken they differ.

Edited by (DuckTheFelay) Exeon, 29 April 2015 - 09:00 PM.

[raging_squirrel]

Attention thread. Most of the people complaining about the delay left Hawken when things went bad. Hawken is Hawken. Not what you left Hawekn for. Stop trying to change Hawken. The delay makes you *think* about boosting and employ advanced tactics (such as hopping around a corner so your weps come up as you are coming into visual contact with your enemy). In short, get gud. And yes, I know exactly who I'm talking to. Bring on the hate. I'll take it all back when you tell me you played through the whole ordeal. 

 Very well said 

[IareDave]

Attention thread. Most of the people complaining about the delay left Hawken when things went bad. Hawken is Hawken. Not what you left Hawekn for. Stop trying to change Hawken. The delay makes you *think* about boosting and employ advanced tactics (such as hopping around a corner so your weps come up as you are coming into visual contact with your enemy). In short, get gud. And yes, I know exactly who I'm talking to. Bring on the hate. I'll take it all back when you tell me you played through the whole ordeal. 

Br0 d0 u ev3n lift?

[Panzermanathod]

 

yes, I'm saying that because you could jump and remove the delay you had the same opportunities as someone who theoretically would stop boosting and had no delay whether he jumped or not. Care to explain how either are different if you think otherwise instead of comparing them to other things, explain how in hawken they differ.

 

Seriously, I think you're missing the point as to why I bring SFA3 into this. If you have a game in which you can attack from the ground and the air, having one thing in one of those instances is *not* exactly the same as having that same thing in both instances. Your options are different. How you react to things in different. In X-ism's case you are more vulnerable in the air because, unlike the 2 other ism's you cannot air block.

 

 

In Hawken's case, using the exploit to *jump into the air* to eliminate delay is not exactly the same as having the choice to jump or remain on the ground. With no delay you have a *choice* to take to the skies or remain grounded. With the exploit if you want to be aggressive to your fullest you *have* to jump. With no delay you have that mix-up game. High or low, kinda like a fighting game; you gotta keep your opponent guessing. With the exploit, if you are a good player you *know* your opponent has to jump to mitigate the delay. And your opponent knows this about you.

 

What if you used the exploit but don't have Air Compressor? Not every player mech has this, so it most likely became a choice between faster shooting or ground mobility. This issue is lessened with global delay removal.

 

And that's how they're different. Yes, they do the same thing, but the how and capabilities and meta aren't exactly the same for either.

[Merl61]

"I played through the whole ordeal"

 

Reduce the delay.

That's your opinion and I respect it coming from you. Please, enlighten me as to why it needs to be removed?

[?FTD? eXeon]

Seriously, I think you're missing the point as to why I bring SFA3 into this. If you have a game in which you can attack from the ground and the air, having one thing in one of those instances is *not* exactly the same as having that same thing in both instances. Your options are different. How you react to things in different. In X-ism's case you are more vulnerable in the air because, unlike the 2 other ism's you cannot air block.

 

 

In Hawken's case, using the exploit to *jump into the air* to eliminate delay is not exactly the same as having the choice to jump or remain on the ground. With no delay you have a *choice* to take to the skies or remain grounded. With the exploit if you want to be aggressive to your fullest you *have* to jump. With no delay you have that mix-up game. High or low, kinda like a fighting game; you gotta keep your opponent guessing. With the exploit, if you are a good player you *know* your opponent has to jump to mitigate the delay. And your opponent knows this about you.

 

What if you used the exploit but don't have Air Compressor? Not every player mech has this, so it most likely became a choice between faster shooting or ground mobility. This issue is lessened with global delay removal.

 

And that's how they're different. Yes, they do the same thing, but the how and capabilities and meta aren't exactly the same for either.

Players played without air dodge and still utilized the jump, air compressor was not necessary in any way. Comparing hawkens jumping to SF is absolutely insane, nothing changes with what you can do when jumping vs walking as opposed to the fact that every move changes once you lift into the air in sf please stop using this analogy it is not the same. Yes, players will have the choice if the delay is removed but, what does that choice change from when everyone could just jump to achieve the same thing? You're not juking anyone by hopping into the air 10 inches of the ground, so there's no 'mix up' here you're still going forwardish and are relatively in the same place you were going to be if you were walking just elevated by a few inches.

[Xacius]

Attention thread. Most of the people complaining about the delay left Hawken when things went bad. Hawken is Hawken. Not what you left Hawekn for. Stop trying to change Hawken. The delay makes you *think* about boosting and employ advanced tactics (such as hopping around a corner so your weps come up as you are coming into visual contact with your enemy). In short, get gud. And yes, I know exactly who I'm talking to. Bring on the hate. I'll take it all back when you tell me you played through the whole ordeal. 

 

I've been playing Hawken since September of 2012.  

 

 

Imagine growing into an incredible game, being immersed with every match, and slowly watching that excitement fade as the developers made poor decision after poor decision.  With each next update came a couple positive bells, followed by meaningless garbage that sullied any potential improvements.  Imagine the game you grew to love and look forward to turn into but a shell of its former self.  You�ve only been around a short while, so you don�t really know what it was like back in early development, but I assure you that the Hawken you play now and the Hawken we played back then are two very different games. 

 

 

There�s a reason why the majority of the playerbase quit in early 2014.  The developers left the game in a poor state, and effectively walked out.  It wasn�t known to everyone, but a couple players had inside information. 

 

 

Honestly, I�m not angry with your response, so don�t take this personally: you�re young; you have a lot to learn.  But don�t, for a single second, think that you�re better than anyone else simply because you continued to play as the developers walked out.

 

 

Re: the delay �

 

�You guys quit for a while, so that means that my opinion is valid and yours isn�t.�

 

 

That�s not how this works.  

 

Your shortsighted approach is indicative of a lack of understanding.  Further, your main point of contention has already been deconstructed.  Read, comprehend, and then come talk once you have a meaningful retort.   

Edited by Xacius, 29 April 2015 - 11:44 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

Players played without air dodge and still utilized the jump, air compressor was not necessary in any way.

 

(((My point is that there are more options overall if the delay is universal instead of air only)))

 

Comparing hawkens jumping to SF is absolutely insane,

 

(((No... no it's not. Not in this case. Having blocking on the ground in X-ism/jumping to cancel the delay offers fewer choices than blocking in V/A-ism/universal delay removal. The point is having one thing in one instance is not equal having one thing in both instances. One thing is more capable than the other.)))

 

nothing changes with what you can do when jumping vs walking as opposed to the fact that every move changes once you lift into the air in sf please stop using this analogy it is not the same.

 

(((I'll stop using *that* analogy when I actually start using it. I've made no mention of jumping attacks, or any attacks, in SFA3. I only mentioned varying blocking capabilities and compared it to varying non-delay capabilities. )))

 

Yes, players will have the choice if the delay is removed but, what does that choice change from when everyone could just jump to achieve the same thing?

 

(((The ability to choose to not jump and get the same effect, providing a ground target, and saving a bit of fuel vs. taking to the air. Where being in the air is not a requirement, it's a method. Where an ambushed mech can be counted with shooting first, not jumping. Where you know your opponent has less ability to predict your actions. )))

 

You're not juking anyone by hopping into the air 10 inches of the ground, so there's no 'mix up' here you're still going forwardish and are relatively in the same place you were going to be if you were walking just elevated by a few inches.

 

(((You said before air compressor wasn't necessary. Say with the exploit you needed to dodge an attack. Can't do it without Air compressor if you happen need to dodge while in the air. You would have to land first. Not an issue if delay is fully removed.

 

Also... "walking just elevated by a few inches"?)))

[LoC_TR]

Players played without air dodge and still utilized the jump, air compressor was not necessary in any way.

(((My point is that there are more options overall if the delay is universal instead of air only)))

Wats wrong with more options? Im lost here. Someone start a fire.

If you're suggesting that the delay removed would nullify the use of air compressor, you'd be mistaken.

Edited by LoC_TR, 29 April 2015 - 11:24 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

I just personally think Hawken is fine with the half second delay. Give it some character. Fits the game. Not really that annoying (not nearly annoying enough for me to complain about it). I don't agree with it being removed. It will probably be removed later on, though.

 

And I'm not saying that the Air Compressor is nullified by the removal of the delay.

[Xacius]

I just personally think Hawken is fine with the half second delay. Give it some character. Fits the game. Not really that annoying (not nearly annoying enough for me to complain about it). I don't agree with it being removed. It will probably be removed later on, though.

 

And I'm not saying that the Air Compressor is nullified by the removal of the delay.

 

I respect you for voicing your stance, especially considering the sizable population backing its removal.  However, your not having an issue with it doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.  

[?FTD? eXeon]

 

I was thinking of something else when addressing your comments about street fighter sorry. Either way you look at it hawken is not street fighter and switching out ism's has significant changes outside of the ability to block in the air, being able to shoot without jumping doesn't change anything besides the ability to dodge without the need for air compressor.

 

 I don't see what  being able to dodge without air compressor changes about having to jump vs not having to jump. If you were concerned about dying because you didn't know when to jump properly or how to use dodges on the ground after you jumped well enough, you probably ran air compressor. I know most players just used proper builds and utilized their dodges on the ground like everyone else. The difference between no delay and jump only no delay is that you get the options of an extra 3 slot internal and you have the exact same gameplay otherwise unless, youre telling me that those 3 extra internal slots that most players were already using with the jump only bug is what would make universal no delay SOOOO different?

[CraftyDus]

Attention thread. Most of the people complaining about the delay left Hawken when things went bad. Hawken is Hawken. Not what you left Hawekn for. Stop trying to change Hawken. The delay makes you *think* about boosting and employ advanced tactics (such as hopping around a corner so your weps come up as you are coming into visual contact with your enemy). In short, get gud. And yes, I know exactly who I'm talking to. Bring on the hate. I'll take it all back when you tell me you played through the whole ordeal. 

 

How's that toxikk career you abandoned Hawken for.

LMAO

 

If you hadn't dissolved your Hawken association so completely, turned your back on it so deliberately, and groped so hard for the new cheese (which was old cheese, just new to you) I wouldn't have snorted coffee all over my new keyboard.

 

Just because it was over in a hot minute, doesn't mean you are any less guilty of leaving Hawken because there weren't any devs to floss at the time.

 

It's a bad reason to use to discredit the debate, wantonly hypocritical, and apart from a select few, unapplicable.

[Nept]

Snappleberries.

[Superkamikazee]

Pretentious the Thread.

[Siphersh]

The delay makes the game more tactical. I think that removing it would promote a more mindless style, and I wouldn't like that.

 

And I hope that the new devs won't just implement all changes that the most vocal forum users push for, instead of adopting a cohesive conceptual framework for the gameplay mechanics.

[1uster]

I just want to say that I am also for a reducing of the delay. We adapted on battlefield to the delay - so most, also me, live with it. But everytime I think about this aspect in game I realize that it renders the whole movement feeling kind of hampered. Scout is too strong with no delay? So let's talk about that afterwards. And change things on scout.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

NM.  Deleted post.

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 30 April 2015 - 05:25 AM.

[Hyginos]

That's your opinion and I respect it coming from you. Please, enlighten me as to why it needs to be removed?

 

*whoosh*

 

I don't have a good reason, and honestly don't care much either way. The intention was to poke fun at the fact that the validity of my opinion is not at all affected by the fact that I stuck around.

 

 

I respect you for voicing your stance, especially considering the sizable population backing its removal.  However, your not having an issue with it doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.  

 

It is a sizable population, perhaps, within this thread. We are in something of an echo chamber here on the forums so it may be prudent when appealing to the authority of majority to do so very carefully.

 

 

I have yet to play an FPS with a sprint mechanic that does not have at least something of an enforced delay between sprinting and shooting, so in that sense I understand why the delay is there to begins with. I can also see how having no delay would open up some movement options. It would seem that completely removing the delay, however, may allow for a "press ALL the buttons" approach as much as it would open up tactical avenues. Without the little hop required to bypass the delay the game may handle a bit differently than it did before the bypass was removed so I'm wary of drawing comparisons between the two.

[Panzermanathod]

I was thinking of something else when addressing your comments about street fighter sorry. Either way you look at it hawken is not street fighter and switching out ism's has significant changes outside of the ability to block in the air, being able to shoot without jumping doesn't change anything besides the ability to dodge without the need for air compressor.

 

(((I'm not saying Hawken is SF. And I know ism's change more than blocking. I was saying that the two instances of no delay are dissimilar slightly, just as the blocking capabilities of the isms are dissimilar slightly. One instance can do more than the other. I was not comparing gameplay, but an objective capability. )))

 

 I don't see what  being able to dodge without air compressor changes about having to jump vs not having to jump.

 

(((Air compressor was an example, not my main point)))

 

If you were concerned about dying because you didn't know when to jump properly or how to use dodges on the ground after you jumped well enough, you probably ran air compressor. I know most players just used proper builds and utilized their dodges on the ground like everyone else.

 

(((So potentially, during the short hop to use the exploit, if you didn't use Air Compressor there would be, say, a dodge-delay?)))

 

The difference between no delay and jump only no delay is that you get the options of an extra 3 slot internal and you have the exact same gameplay otherwise unless, youre telling me that those 3 extra internal slots that most players were already using with the jump only bug is what would make universal no delay SOOOO different?

 

(((Oh I don't think it'll be exact if no ground delay will be added.

 

Also I never said the universal delay was "SOOOO different". I said they weren't exactly the same, but similar.)))

[SoldierHobbes11]

Other FPS games usually have gun raise delays after sprinting as measure to keep players from sprinting around recklessly without consiquences. Personally I feel that the delay encourages people to think a bit more tactfully when moving around. I only use boosting when evading or moving cover to cover. To me the delay actually feels more natural. Maybe not as fluid, but still more natural. That's just my take.

[IareDave]

Other FPS games usually have gun raise delays after sprinting as measure to keep players from sprinting around recklessly without consiquences. Personally I feel that the delay encourages people to think a bit more tactfully when moving around. I only use boosting when evading or moving cover to cover. To me the delay actually feels more natural. Maybe not as fluid, but still more natural. That's just my take.

Yes, and those games also don't have turn rate caps and are significantly faster than Hawken.

[?FTD? eXeon]

The delay makes the game more tactical. I think that removing it would promote a more mindless style, and I wouldn't like that.

 

And I hope that the new devs won't just implement all changes that the most vocal forum users push for, instead of adopting a cohesive conceptual framework for the gameplay mechanics.

Exactly how does delay make the game more tactical(Definition here for ya since you obviously seem to not understand what it means)? By the very definition, I may be crazy here but, the delay is completely anti-tactical.

 

'The  players gained a tactical advantage by being able to utilize dodge in combat' vs 'The players gained a tactical advantage by having their boost become unusuable in combat' which of those sounds more accurate?

Edited by (DuckTheFelay) Exeon, 30 April 2015 - 06:56 PM.

[Grollourdo]

Personally I agree with Merl and Hobbes I like the delay, I like all the penalties, it's like a challenge and you have to think your plan through. XD

[Panzermanathod]

 

 

'The  players gained a tactical advantage by being able to utilize dodge in combat' vs 'The players gained a tactical advantage by having their boost become unusuable in combat' which of those sounds more accurate?

 

Therein lies what I think is one of the major issues for the disagreement.

 

Some like you see the boost as almost purely a means of aiding offense, except the boost isn't good with said offense because of the delay (although calling the boost "useless" in combat sounds pretty strong). Ergo, everyone who wants it gone wishes so as to aid in the offensive game.

 

Some like me see it as another mobility option. Get you here. Get you there. Get you away. Get yourself shot in the back. It's not heavily used an offensive maneuver, and people like me don't treat it heavily as such. That is why some, like me, do not mind the delay.

 

When people say it's more tactical, you see it as impossible because you see the boost as means to an offense, not a means of movement.

[AsianJoyKiller]

When people say it's more tactical, you see it as impossible because you see the boost as means to an offense, not a means of movement.

Objectively, having the delay is less tactical because it allows for less tactics. Without the delay, you can use all the same tactics that you would with it, but you can also use additional tactics.

 

He sees it as impossible for having the delay be more tactical because it is literally not possible for it to be so.

[Nov8tr]

Br0 d0 u ev3n lift?

 

He doesn't have to. He jumps up like Kermit the frog and his weapons are already pointing down at what he aims to shoot. BOOM. ....... no need to lift? :D

[Panzermanathod]

"Tactical" isn't really the best word for it (hence why I've never claimed it was more tactical), but I can see where some people are coming from when they say it's more tactical, and this partially involves what I said about what we expect from boosting. But, again, I am not claiming the delay is *more tactical*, just that I think understand where people are coming from where they say so.

 

Here is the definition of tactics Exeon linked to.

 

: of, relating to, or used for a specific plan that is created to achieve a particular goal in war, politics, etc.

 

With this in mind, again, some of see boosting have a function of aiding offense. But don't look at it from an offensive standpoint. What is to be considered as a whole when you decide to boost (As in getting from point A to point B)?

 

Potential for being seen on radar. Fuel usage. A half second raise delay that would make ambushes slightly harder to counter (let's say the ambush is by a single mech). The fact that you cannot shoot while boosting.

 

As one approaches an enemy, all this must be considered. Once you get to an enemy, though, that's where dodging, jumping, aiming, and heat management come into play. Among other things.

 

With the delay gone, there is less to consider with boosting. Radar and Fuel are the same. Ambushes are slightly less of a detriment because you can simply start shooting. The opponent has less of an advantage for getting the drop on you. And so, it goes from "if I get ambushed I'll be slightly vulnerable and I can only hope to counter them or run away" to "If I see an enemy I will shoot."

 

The shooting while boosting is still there, but with no delay you no longer heavily consider the pros and cons of stopping a boost to shoot.

 

And with less detriments you potentially have more reason to boost in more situations (not all, and not necessarily a major increase). And if you boost in more situations, you are actively not considering other means of getting to where you are going, and as such this can be seen as fewer tactics because, since the boost is "better" and more "favorable" you can afford to do that more, and other methods less.

 

But this is just a guess.

[LoC_TR]

I guess Panzer what we're trying to say is that we don't think that the boost delay is that tactical of a decision. Essentially we'll decide that were going to walk and not boost, or maybe we'll just dodge in (AC or not), unfortunately those choices are really predictable. The situation becomes a stall and the fight is stale especially at the corner game, whom will make the first mistake? Why should I make the first mistake? I can just sit back here on my orbs and let you break the corner, "No, you break the corner!"  So I can get the first and likely more accurate shot. We would rather be able to force a choice, or be forced to make choice that is a much more heart pumping decision than will or won't I boost. The removal of the delay allows me to still threaten with a boost-dodge and possibly draw out a secondary fire so I can engage if I want to, but I don't necessarily have to. I understand your point of view but I think there is room for deeper decision making than that. The whole situation I feel is exacerbated by the fact that you can spam certain weapons so quickly and accurately, it's almost pointless in the current meta to try completely dodge shots but to mitigate them by spamming dodge and boost. You Increase the amount you proc your internals and you also make yourself a moving target so you can mitigate sustained damage.  Yes you can accomplish some amazing dodge boosting feats in the current meta but the more skilled you are the more accurate your opponent at some point it starts to not matter so much. 

 

There is no big decision of whether or not I boost or dodge, we already know exactly what were going to do or we do it out of necessity. 

 

Also I request that vid of the TDM on frontline that was 0-0 until the last 10 seconds. boooring.

Edited by LoC_TR, 30 April 2015 - 10:31 PM.

[IareDave]

Slow gameplay =/= tactical

Edited by IareDave, 30 April 2015 - 10:32 PM.

[DerMax]

This thread reminds me of the Paxman vs Brand interview.