539 replies to this topic

[Fstroke]

As the scout approaches, every time he's boosting he can't return fire, so he's still at a disadvantage. If the Reaper is worth their salt, they'll decimate the scout before they even get within viable Flak range (ofc this depends on the starting distance of each, but let's think of half the length of the main frontline bridge for reference).

In the current meta, the time it takes for the Scout to approach, while returning fire, is even higher (due to the 500ms wait after every boost), putting it at even more of a disadvantage than if the delay did not exist.

My point being the scout can return fire at anytime because there is no delay. He could stop boosting or take a hop in the air to maintain momentum. Let's not throw out the rest of the meta here either, any pilot worth their salt is going to be using cover on their approach. Yes if a scout was stupidly charging an open field its moot but let's pretend for a second both pilots aren't complete morons.

Edited by Fstroke, 30 March 2015 - 05:12 PM.

[Xacius]

My point being the scout can return fire at anytime because there is no delay. He could stop boosting or take a hop in the air to maintain momentum. Let's not throw out the rest of the meta here either, any pilot worth their salt is going to be using cover on their approach. Yes if a scout was stupidly charging an open field its moot but let's pretend for a second both pilots aren't complete morons.

 

What cover is there in an open field?  That's part of the assumption.  If corner play is involved, the Scout will most certainly win because of LOLremotedet.  

 

When the Scout jumps to retain momentum, he's consuming more fuel on approach.  Barring his ability, there's only so much fuel in that tiny tank.  If he air-dodges to mix up movement out of that forward jump, there goes another 6L.  

[talon70]

I remember the comment about the animation not looking correct without the delay. Just make the animation a blur like quick draw McGraw.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I remember the comment about the animation not looking correct without the delay. Just make the animation a blur like quick draw McGraw.

Yeah, that is an easily addressed problem.

Think about jump animations in just about any game. Or rather, consider how little thought you ever give them. Generally, the jump is not delayed. As soon as you hit the button, you jump. Animators have tricks up their sleeve to make you mentally accept an instant action that, in real life, would be delayed.

[Xacius]

Yeah, that is an easily addressed problem.

Think about jump animations in just about any game. Or rather, consider how little thought you ever give them. Generally, the jump is not delayed. As soon as you hit the button, you jump. Animators have tricks up their sleeve to make you mentally accept an instant action that, in real life, would be delayed.

 

Even if it did look off, just fix the animation later, lol.  

[PeanutFox]

 

There is no need to remove the boost penalty.  More offensive options are something the game doesn't need.  You'd be able to close even greater distances uninhibited while firing with absolutely no penalty for doing so.  As it stands now you're clearly exchanging offensive capability for increased speed.  You're very aware of the spacing between you and the person you're charging.  You can't just park right next to them because you're obviously going to eat a round for doing so.  There is a very clear and obvious trade off with the boosting penalty.  If you remove it you're essentially giving a mild form of the Raider's ability to every mech without any good reason to do so.

 

It's very rewarding to smack a player boosting around unaware while still being able to resituate yourself before they have the opportunity to return fire.  Bots ignore this all the time and it's annoying more than anything.  What should have been a rewarding alpha strike is immediately negated by instant return fire.

 

Fleeing mechs have so few options outside of items.  You can't boost backwards and return fire, and lending even more options for closing distance while giving none to increase it just doesn't make any sense.  Running away is even less viable in this situation since now they can close distance and lay damage.  I don't get it.  I really don't see why you'd want something like this.  Wind walking already does this, albeit you at least have to be in a decent striking range to make it work.

[TheVulong]

The old developers proved, on numerous occasions, that many of their intentions and implementations made the game worse.  At this point, blindly following their old views is about as stupid as following a suicidal friend off the face of a cliff. 

Yes, some of their decisions weren't wise, but in the same time they always had to implement/change something because people were constantly nagging them about it. The devs were just trying to please the community, in a wrong way but still. So in this mess we call Hawken, there is our fault as well. And if you think that sticking to the original game concept is like following a friend off the cliff - i don't care: i'm goind down with him.

[TheVulong]

When the Scout jumps to retain momentum, he's consuming more fuel on approach.  Barring his ability, there's only so much fuel in that tiny tank.  If he air-dodges to mix up movement out of that forward jump, there goes another 6L.  

Fuel Converter FTW.

[Fstroke]

There is no need to remove the boost penalty. More offensive options are something the game doesn't need.

Well I disagree with that. The general consensus is that the game is too focused on taking a defensive position and is far too easy for stagnant stalemates to form.

The debate is how much this delay really has to do with it. IMO removing it does more harm than good and will not be the answer to fixing that meta. I think the real problems are the omniscient radar, and the absurd amount of options to regenerate HP quickly in combat.

[?FTD? eXeon]

 

 

There is no need to remove the boost penalty.  More offensive options are something the game doesn't need.  You'd be able to close even greater distances uninhibited while firing with absolutely no penalty for doing so.  As it stands now you're clearly exchanging offensive capability for increased speed.  You're very aware of the spacing between you and the person you're charging.  You can't just park right next to them because you're obviously going to eat a round for doing so.  There is a very clear and obvious trade off with the boosting penalty.  If you remove it you're essentially giving a mild form of the Raider's ability to every mech without any good reason to do so.

 

It's very rewarding to smack a player boosting around unaware while still being able to resituate yourself before they have the opportunity to return fire.  Bots ignore this all the time and it's annoying more than anything.  What should have been a rewarding alpha strike is immediately negated by instant return fire.

 

Fleeing mechs have so few options outside of items.  You can't boost backwards and return fire, and lending even more options for closing distance while giving none to increase it just doesn't make any sense.  Running away is even less viable in this situation since now they can close distance and lay damage.  I don't get it.  I really don't see why you'd want something like this.  Wind walking already does this, albeit you at least have to be in a decent striking range to make it work.

 

More offensive options is exactly what this game needs in its current stale standoff gameplay. Giving someone more offensive power in a game dominated by defensive play does not seem like a bad idea. You say that you trade off offensive capabilities for speed but during the raise delay you have no speed and you have no offensive capabilities so im not seeing where this trade off is coming from. During the time youre boosting your statement would be correct, which is a very fair trade off.

 

As for fleeing mechs if you're running you should not have the capabilities to return fire. As it is now even with a .5 second delay if someone is running away from me I'm perfectly capable of chasing them down and maintaining a rather high DPS by just stopping boosting for .5 seconds. Removal of this .5 second delay would not change much in this situation.

 

Well I disagree with that. The general consensus is that the game is too focused on taking a defensive position and is far too easy for stagnant stalemates to form.

The debate is how much this delay really has to do with it. IMO removing it does more harm than good and will not be the answer to fixing that meta. I think the real problems are the omniscient radar, and the absurd amount of options to regenerate HP quickly in combat.

You say that it will do more harm than good but, I've yet to see anyone give me a reason why it would be bad to remove this delay. What makes you think it would do more harm than good? I know a lot of the higher tier hawken players played for months bypassing this raise delay and there were few issues raised by this. Admittedly lower tier players did find issue with certain mechs like scout but, that's a player skill issue that even with the raise delay is still an issue.

 

 

As it is now, A mech's design is flawed. Their health is low because they have a lot of mobility to avoid damage but, when the raise delay was enforced those mechs were then forced to decide between Surviving(Boosting) and Fighting(Dealing damage). While other beefier mechs are not forced to make the same decisions, they strafe and dodge because they can take the hits as long as they make their shots count and mitigate bits of damage through dodging.

[Fstroke]

More offensive options is exactly what this game needs in its current stale standoff gameplay. Giving someone more offensive power in a game dominated by defensive play does not seem like a bad idea. You say that you trade off offensive capabilities for speed but during the raise delay you have no speed and you have no offensive capabilities so im not seeing where this trade off is coming from. During the time youre boosting your statement would be correct, which is a very fair trade off.

As for fleeing mechs if you're running you should not have the capabilities to return fire. As it is now even with a .5 second delay if someone is running away from me I'm perfectly capable of chasing them down and maintaining a rather high DPS by just stopping boosting for .5 seconds. Removal of this .5 second delay would not change much in this situation.

You say that it will do more harm than good but, I've yet to see anyone give me a reason why it would be bad to remove this delay. What makes you think it would do more harm than good? I know a lot of the higher tier hawken players played for months bypassing this raise delay and there were few issues raised by this. Admittedly lower tier players did find issue with certain mechs like scout but, that's a player skill issue that even with the raise delay is still an issue.


As it is now, A mech's design is flawed. Their health is low because they have a lot of mobility to avoid damage but, when the raise delay was enforced those mechs were then forced to decide between Surviving(Boosting) and Fighting(Dealing damage). While other beefier mechs are not forced to make the same decisions, they strafe and dodge because they can take the hits as long as they make their shots count and mitigate bits of damage through dodging.

I have given many reasons why I think that and supporting my stance. You don't have to agree but the fact that you continue to dismiss any opposing argument as an actual reason or valid in your book is starting to become just a little bit insulting and annoying. Makes having a discussion really futile.

You are also drawing the line in "skill" tiers again. The "lower tier" was not specifically complaining about it. Most people didn't even know about it giving people who were able to use it intentionally an advantage. Tapping the space bar every time you come out of a boost is not exactly a skilled maneuver either, so it did nothing to affect the skill cieling.

You also say this hurts only a classes. It affects all classes and I would venture to say the heavier slower classes more so. You know as well as I do that there is not a single mechs in this game that can get away with not moving. Its been said time and time again that mechs need to use their boost dodge combos to overcome the turn cap and effectively combat. This has been affectionately referred to as the dance, and is when of the skills that a player develops over their playtime. This is very essential to combating a classes because of their speed, the slower classes not so much. This is what top tier players would tell noobs when they complained about a class speed. Are we pretending that top tier players no longer think that's a core skill of the game?

[?FTD? eXeon]

I have given many reasons why I think that and supporting my stance. You don't have to agree but the fact that you continue to dismiss any opposing argument as an actual reason or valid in your book is starting to become just a little bit insulting and annoying. Makes having a discussion really futile.

You are also drawing the line in "skill" tiers again. The "lower tier" was not specifically complaining about it. Most people didn't even know about it giving people who were able to use it intentionally an advantage. Tapping the space bar every time you come out of a boost is not exactly a skilled maneuver either, so it did nothing to affect the skill cieling.

You also say this hurts only a classes. It affects all classes and I would venture to say the heavier slower classes more so. You know as well as I do that there is not a single mechs in this game that can get away with not moving. Its been said time and time again that mechs need to use their boost dodge combos to overcome the turn cap and effectively combat. This has been affectionately referred to as the dance, and is when of the skills that a player develops over their playtime. This is very essential to combating a classes because of their speed, the slower classes not so much. This is what top tier players would tell noobs when they complained about a class speed. Are we pretending that top tier players no longer think that's a core skill of the game?

I've only dismissed 3 points, Immersion, Animation, and Because it was intended to be there. 2 of those are subjective opinions(animation/immersion) and if because it was intended was a good enough reason to keep anything we'd still be playing with out of combat tech rotations, 7 second super fast traveling larger than GL explosion radius EMP, Because it was intended is a laughable excuse I'm sorry. I'm sorry if when I ask for a reason for a serious flaw in gameplay someone cannot give me a gameplay related reason I do tend to dismiss them, hell 2 of those arent even reasons for the delay but an effect caused because its in teh game. AJK's post earlier in this thread was really well written on why this delay feels so unenjoyable to play with

Having control is such a base pleasure that losing it intuitively feels bad. So the question to ask is, "Why are we doing this, and Is it worth making people feel bad for this?"

And if only a certain weapon is gaining an unfair advantage without the delay, then perhaps that weapon needs to be adjusted.

 

I did bring up higher tier players specifically because they were the ones using this bugofawesomeness the most, they would be the ones to notice problems it brought since most players didnt even know it was a thing somehow. I do totally agree with you that when a player was unaware of mechs potential with the enjoyableexploitoffun they were definitely at a slight disadvantage if they ever tried to boost. It did not add much to the skill ceiling at all. I am not trying to have some supercoolbug where only 2.x mmr players can use it. I want everyone to enjoy the game I knew about and thought others did too but, apparently this whole radexploit is seen as some horrible demon in many players eyes because it was abused by players who knew about it. I just want a more fluid Hawken that I used to play.

 

I never stated it only hurt A classes, I pointed out how A classes were effected by it specifically. I think everyone suffers from this horrible weapon lag in the game. C/B mechs do not need to utilize movement as a form of survivability as much as A's due to higher health pools, so because of this they can rely heavily on dodging and good aim to get them through the fight which is what we saw in tdm scrims and the first TPG season. As to your point about boost/dodging to maintain sight on an A, I find people with good aim track A's pretty well, when I get past their tracking they dodge to reposition boosting would only exacerbate the issue. You do sometimes need to boost to reposition your aim but it is quite a rare necessity and more often you were using it for survivability or more adventageous position(corner/under them).

 

 

I wish people would stop treating this bug like it was some secret everyone shared at high mmr and that we want our little bug back. I just fuzzy bunnyng hate the delay.

[zorin1]

remove the Animations.  It only slows down the game.  Does anyone really care to see all the movement in the weapons?  The game moves so fast that who can see all that detail and it is not really needed.  If you remove the Animations then you can remove the delay.  But when I go against you top MMR gals/guys I want the delay to be 1 second.  :)

[Fstroke]

I've only dismissed 3 points, Immersion, Animation, and Because it was intended to be there. 2 of those are subjective opinions(animation/immersion) and if because it was intended was a good enough reason to keep anything we'd still be playing with out of combat tech rotations, 7 second super fast traveling larger than GL explosion radius EMP, Because it was intended is a laughable excuse I'm sorry. I'm sorry if when I ask for a reason for a serious flaw in gameplay someone cannot give me a gameplay related reason I do tend to dismiss them, hell 2 of those arent even reasons for the delay but an effect caused because its in teh game. AJK's post earlier in this thread was really well written on why this delay feels so unenjoyable to play with

I did bring up higher tier players specifically because they were the ones using this bugofawesomeness the most, they would be the ones to notice problems it brought since most players didnt even know it was a thing somehow. I do totally agree with you that when a player was unaware of mechs potential with the enjoyableexploitoffun they were definitely at a slight disadvantage if they ever tried to boost. It did not add much to the skill ceiling at all. I am not trying to have some supercoolbug where only 2.x mmr players can use it. I want everyone to enjoy the game I knew about and thought others did too but, apparently this whole radexploit is seen as some horrible demon in many players eyes because it was abused by players who knew about it. I just want a more fluid Hawken that I used to play.

I never stated it only hurt A classes, I pointed out how A classes were effected by it specifically. I think everyone suffers from this horrible weapon lag in the game. C/B mechs do not need to utilize movement as a form of survivability as much as A's due to higher health pools, so because of this they can rely heavily on dodging and good aim to get them through the fight which is what we saw in tdm scrims and the first TPG season. As to your point about boost/dodging to maintain sight on an A, I find people with good aim track A's pretty well, when I get past their tracking they dodge to reposition boosting would only exacerbate the issue. You do sometimes need to boost to reposition your aim but it is quite a rare necessity and more often you were using it for survivability or more adventageous position(corner/under them).


I wish people would stop treating this bug like it was some secret everyone shared at high mmr and that we want our little bug back. I just fuzzy bunnyng hate the delay.

OK, you have just replied to me twice with that and none of those things you mentioned as being non reasons are from me, or anything I used to back up my point of view.

I don't think this is a high tier vs. low tier issue. I just brought that up as a counter to the implication the lower tiers complained about it. As far as I remember it was barely complained about but it was known and ADH just patched it one day. I know in my MMR tier it was pretty eye opening just how advantageous knowing about that glitch was. Was definitely an adjustment and I am not what you would consider a top tier player.

So I realize that people don't want the glitch back. I could even see reducing the length of the delay.

My concern summed up in a few sentences is having the delay removed altogether will allow certain mechs/weapons to circumvent the weapon lock out while boosting. I know you don't believe that, perhaps I am just being paranoid, guess we will find out.

[?FTD? eXeon]

OK, you have just replied to me twice with that and none of those things you mentioned as being non reasons are from me, or anything I used to back up my point of view.

I don't think this is a high tier vs. low tier issue. I just brought that up as a counter to the implication the lower tiers complained about it. As far as I remember it was barely complained about but it was known and ADH just patched it one day. I know in my MMR tier it was pretty eye opening just how advantageous knowing about that glitch was. Was definitely an adjustment and I am not what you would consider a top tier player.

So I realize that people don't want the glitch back. I could even see reducing the length of the delay.

My concern summed up in a few sentences is having the delay removed altogether will allow certain mechs/weapons to circumvent the weapon lock out while boosting. I know you don't believe that, perhaps I am just being paranoid, guess we will find out.

I skimmed through the thread double checking for issues I might of missed, if you posted it earlier I just didnt see it honestly. When you said weapon lock out while boosting what exactly are you referring to? Just stopping boosting to shoot? Honestly you can abuse that right now by just bunnyhopping, waiting .5 seonds, firing, boosting as you hit the ground. I'm not trying to dismiss your concern it is very valid thought that it could cause an issue but, it wasn't necessarily a problem when most of the top players were exploiting the superfunbug.

 

I do not think that changes to the raise delay should be made lightly but, I would love for them to expiriment with changes to it at the very least. It may be wishful thinking but I would really love for them to try out a build without it at all. I expect certain weapon/mech combo's may be problematic and need to be adjusted but I cant think that this change would dramatically influence too much other than your freedom to use boost a lot more freely to avoid fire withou the worry of locking yourself out from returning it in fast paced DPS races. Even if it is not removed at least seeing if reduction makes the clunkiness feel any better.

[Fstroke]

I skimmed through the thread double checking for issues I might of missed, if you posted it earlier I just didnt see it honestly. When you said weapon lock out while boosting what exactly are you referring to? Just stopping boosting to shoot? Honestly you can abuse that right now by just bunnyhopping, waiting .5 seonds, firing, boosting as you hit the ground. I'm not trying to dismiss your concern it is very valid thought that it could cause an issue but, it wasn't necessarily a problem when most of the top players were exploiting the superfunbug.

Yea I am referring to the restriction on using weapons while you are boosting when saying weapon lockout.

I do not think that changes to the raise delay should be made lightly but, I would love for them to expiriment with changes to it at the very least. It may be wishful thinking but I would really love for them to try out a build without it at all. I expect certain weapon/mech combo's may be problematic and need to be adjusted but I cant think that this change would dramatically influence too much other than your freedom to use boost a lot more freely to avoid fire withou the worry of locking yourself out from returning it in fast paced DPS races. Even if it is not removed at least seeing if reduction makes the clunkiness feel any better.

I agree with this. I do not want to rule it out and think that an opportunity for experimenting should be granted. Why not try it out I suppose. We are merely postulating on it after all.

Edited by Fstroke, 31 March 2015 - 02:26 PM.

[Fstroke]

Double post fail....again

Edited by Fstroke, 31 March 2015 - 02:26 PM.

[Xacius]

I skimmed through the thread again and still have yet to see a compelling reason as to why the delay should stay.  What does it add to gameplay?  

[Jelooboi]

I agree.

Edited by Jelooboi, 15 April 2015 - 11:44 PM.

[-Tj-]

I regularly get my arse handed to me by the high-up-there MMR guys, and regularly hold my own with folks around my level. When the raise delay bug allowed insta-shootin', I still got my arse handed to me by the high-up-there MMR guys, and still regularly held my own with folks around my level.

 

You know what the difference was? Fun.

 

The lack of the raise delay made the game more fun to play. If its removal makes the game more fun, "animations would look weird" and "some dev said so" aren't good enough reasons to keep it, imo. It's a game, not a pre-rendered cinematic. For any game, good control is what makes it fun to play. Lack of the raise delay made the game feel more responsive, and I'd love to have that accidental feature back.

[LoC_TR]

I'm not too vocal on this subject, even back when they first patched it, mostly because I trusted the devs plus the conversation was pretty volatile. However I feel now after playing a year without it, that this was an unnecessary patch, the removal of the raise delay benefits no one. It's a hindrance to the dance, only succeeding in halting it mid-step.  I was a 2400 mmr (for what its worth)  player back then and I can tell you with conviction, I had no idea what a raise delay even was until ADH patched it. I had learned to utilize this "bug" unconsciously in games where the flow and pace of the game demanded it. There was no, "Hhahah no one else knows, die filthy casuals!!11!!!"   When you've played a game enough, you start letting your brain and your fingers do the work, just concentrate on not throwing spaghetti everywhere. 

 

Now I will say this time and time again, there needs to be way more advice and tutorial in-game so that we can lessen the disparity between low and high tier players. Theres a canyon of knowledge that is vastly unexplored before a player can began utilizing the raise delay. If the argument is that high skilled players will be able to pub stomp harder.. whelp I got news for you! It doesn' matter.

 

As far as it benefiting raise delay more so on A's classes, that may be true, but I think there are valid ways to balance the scales without slowing the dance.

 

 

Honestly you can abuse that right now by just bunnyhopping, waiting .5 seonds, firing, boosting as you hit the ground. 

 

I do this stupid fuzzy bunny and I never really thought about it. 

 

[AsianJoyKiller]

Maybe it's because I've gotten used to playing MOBAs and their insanely high learning curve when it comes to mechanics, or maybe it's because my shooter experience comes from games like Quake where things like strafe jumping are never explained, but I feel like the game doesn't need to flesh out every little mechanical detail for new players.

[LoC_TR]

Maybe it's because I've gotten used to playing MOBAs and their insanely high learning curve when it comes to mechanics, or maybe it's because my shooter experience comes from games like Quake where things like strafe jumping are never explained, but I feel like the game doesn't need to flesh out every little mechanical detail for new players.

 

I don't mean that the tutorials should cover things like weapon-raise-delay, but there should be more in-depth information on basic gameplay. Obviously you want players to figure some things out on their own but I think some of those newer players need a bit of a boost. A 1200 mmr has no scope of what a 2200+ mmr players are capable of, most of them have don't understand how some basic mechanics influence each other. I don't want the curve to go away, I'd just like to see more players moving into a higher bracket of play without having to invest 200 (more?) hours into the game. It's an uphill battle of HC grind, gated items and internals, all while still absorbing and applying all the information needed to contend with high skilled players.

Edited by LoC_TR, 17 April 2015 - 01:27 AM.

[Xacius]

 

I'm not too vocal on this subject, even back when they first patched it, mostly because I trusted the devs plus the conversation was pretty volatile. However I feel now after playing a year without it, that this was an unnecessary patch, the removal of the raise delay benefits no one. It's a hindrance to the dance, only succeeding in halting it mid-step.  I was a 2400 mmr (for what its worth)  player back then and I can tell you with conviction, I had no idea what a raise delay even was until ADH patched it. I had learned to utilize this "bug" unconsciously in games where the flow and pace of the game demanded it. There was no, "Hhahah no one else knows, die filthy casuals!!11!!!"   When you've played a game enough, you start letting your brain and your fingers do the work, just concentrate on not throwing spaghetti everywhere. 

 

 

 

readin dis maks me cry evertim

Edited by Xacius, 17 April 2015 - 02:01 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I don't mean that the tutorials should cover things like weapon-raise-delay, but there should be more in-depth information on basic gameplay.

Gotcha. I can agree to that.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I'd like to have a test server where I can see what the removal of WRD would be like. If it makes the game feel better then I'm generally for it so long as it doesn't make battles dramatically shorter than they are now.

 

I think having an internal that reduces or eliminates WRD would also be an amusing turn of events. Call it a "weapons stabilizer" or something. Force people to choose between an air compressor or a weapons stabilizer. Make it fun. Throw a community rage party when it's released. I don't know.

[Xacius]

I think having an internal that reduces or eliminates WRD would also be an amusing turn of events. Call it a "weapons stabilizer" or something. Force people to choose between an air compressor or a weapons stabilizer. Make it fun. Throw a community rage party when it's released. I don't know.

Constricting gameplay mechanics to internals has caused enough problems already.  Quality of life improvements should be made universal.  

[Flifang]

I remember when it was different, the gameplay is definately less fluent. Before it was like you guys perfectly describe: a dance. Then again I'm kinda dreading facing really good flak brawlers if this gets reversed. The times when you get killed because of the raise delay; albeit not often after 500+ hours with it, just makes the game feel like it's not doing the speed thing right.

[M4st0d0n]

If it's there then there's a reason. How does lag compensation work in Hawken? Dodge is powerful, remove the delay and you'll gimp every player with 50+ ping.

 

On the other hand you dont need sub par players like these obviously. Hawken just needs to be played by 12 people in a US east server.

[Xacius]

If it's there then there's a reason. How does lag compensation work in Hawken? Dodge is powerful, remove the delay and you'll gimp every player with 50+ ping.

lmao.  

 

That's just completely false.  Remove the delay and you'll make the game more fluid, even for people with 50+ ping.  Players that can't hit their shots are another issue entirely.  

Edited by Xacius, 18 April 2015 - 11:17 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

Lol. That's just completely false, because fluid.

 

Mkay, bye.

[DieselCat]

I skimmed through the thread again and still have yet to see a compelling reason as to why the delay should stay.  What does it add to gameplay?  

 

The delay adds Awareness and Strategy ...otherwise removing the delay only creates a run and gun, spray and pray style of gameplay. The game is fast enough as is and in some cases too fast already. 

 

*+

[Panzermanathod]

I never minded the delay. I saw it as "normal movement for fighting" and "boost for speed but become vulnerable and more visible".

 

So, really, if it stayed as is I'll be fine with it.

[Xacius]

Lol. That's just completely false, because fluid.

 

Mkay, bye.

 

The delay doesn't change the speed of the game.  Please explain how removing the delay would gimp every player with 50+ ping, as you stated earlier.

Edited by Xacius, 18 April 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

The delay adds Awareness and Strategy ...otherwise removing the delay only creates a run and gun, spray and pray style of gameplay. The game is fast enough as is and in some cases too fast already. 

 

*+

I don't know what makes people think "Slower = More strategic" because it is simply not true.

Removal of the delay means people are required to have different awareness and learn different strategies, but it does not diminish or remove such elements.

Take Quake and UT for example. Fast games. Very fast paced games. Blindingly fast paced games.

But they take just as much awareness and strategy to play as any other shooter. Hell, they require quite a bit more than most shooters, given how punishing making a mistake in those games can be.

[M1lkshake]

The delay adds Awareness and Strategy ...otherwise removing the delay only creates a run and gun, spray and pray style of gameplay. The game is fast enough as is and in some cases too fast already. 

 

*+

 

Are you just stringing words together? How does having a delay keep the game from being a spray and pray? In what way do you gain awareness from having a forced wait time before firing? 

Have you considered the possibility that your reaction times are just slow?

[Panzermanathod]

I don't know what makes people think "Slower = More strategic" because it is simply not true.

 

The fact that most games that do rely fairly heavily on tactics tend to be slower. You rarely see games that can be described as "High Speed Tactical Action", you know?

[comic_sans]

The fact that most games that do rely fairly heavily on tactics tend to be slower. You rarely see games that can be described as "High Speed Tactical Action", you know?

 

Apparently metal gear solid revengeance, dynasty warriors 8, and company of heroes, according to google.  

 

Tangential Man... AWAAAAAY!

[Nept]

The fact that most games that do rely fairly heavily on tactics tend to be slower. You rarely see games that can be described as "High Speed Tactical Action", you know?

 

The only reason that slower games are at all associated with tactics is that their skill ceilings are low as balls.  In other words, everyone hits the skill cap much more quickly, and there isn't much difference between players of different ability tiers - certainly not like the differences you'd see in a game like Unreal 2 XMP, UT, or Quake.  As a result, tactics are required at much lower skill tiers than would be seen with most arena shooters (and the upper skill tiers are more populated because they're more easily reached).

 

Slower games are not inherently more tactical.  Omniscient has run the gamut in competitive games, and I can tell you that the most strategically- and tactically-involved games were the fastest: Unreal 2 XMP, UT2k3, and Fallen Empire: Legions.  Slower-paced games like Lineage 2 (very slow), World of Warcraft (also very slow), Battlefield 3 (pretty slow) and Hawken (medium slow) require comparatively little thought.  Faster games require that players respond quickly (and appropriately) to rapidly-shifting scenarios.  Additionally, the enhanced movement options mean that they've a larger pool of options from which to pull, as well as a larger pool of options to defend against.  Finally, response-based tactics must be coordinated and executed within moments because players can shift positions and formations so quickly. 

 

If you were to gather a team and run against mine in Unreal Tournament, you'd be utterly trounced because of the skill differential.  Strategy and tactics would play a part, but you wouldn't notice  while running against that differential.  However, the depth of those strategies and tactics would become evident if my team were playing against a team possessing similarly-skilled players.

 

It's the same thing in Hawken, although to a much lesser degree (skill ceiling's a lot lower).

Edited by Nept, 18 April 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[DerMax]

I don't understand the guys who argue for the delay. When it was introduced, everyone thought it was an utter brainfart from the former devs. It was an uncalled for, poorly thought-out change that made the game feel clunkier and added nothing of value. I don't remember a single person who liked the change at the time.

 

Whoever argues for the delay seems to have forgotten how the game played prior to its introduction.

 

I will say this, however: should the delay be reduced, the "jump out of the corner > shoot > air-dodge back into safety" will become even more annoying than it is currently, and it is quite annoying even now.