539 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

I ran out of likes for the day.  

That's okay. I've got a surplus from the old forums. :D

[OdinTheWise]

good bugs become accidental features. i have played many games that had bugs that i liked that should have been made features. to say that bugs should be fixed because they are bugs is just silly to me

[StubbornPuppet]

In contrast to many others, I do not want the speed of Hawken increased.  It's simply a matter of my preferring a game where strategic placement and forethought take precedence over lightning reflexes and deadly accuracy.

 

I love that Hawken is a "middle-ground" between games like Mech Warrior and Unreal Tournament.  I don't see why Hawken can't remain unique and carve out it's own niche in the market - and I would hate to see it taken either direction in any effort to "be more like" one game or another.

[TheVulong]

I was around before the delay was implemented but at the time I was still a new and upcoming player and wasn't involved in the competitive scene. Now, having extensive experience in this game and other fast paced shooters, I would love to have this delay removed to further give the game a faster paced feel. Because lets be honest, the game isn't very fast (and that includes scout). 

I think we start to forget that this is supposed to be an immersive mech game. And as any other machinery, the mechs have certain technical limitations that you have to deal with. So can we please stop trying to make an old-school arena FPS out of the game that originally was supposed to be something else?

[AsianJoyKiller]

I think we start to forget that this is supposed to be an immersive mech game. And as any other machinery, the mechs have certain technical limitations that you have to deal with. So can we please stop trying to make an old-school arena FPS out of the game that originally was supposed to be something else?

"Supposed to be something else"? Hawken has always been a faster paced, arena-styled shooter. Also, "immersive mech game" and "arena shooter" are not mutually exclusive. Can you please stop trying to make a slower paced mech sim out of a game that started out as a fast-paced arena shooter.

I can't remember if you played the Alpha, but I do know I did. And I do know that Hawken was intended to be an arena-shooter. It always has been.

[TheVulong]

"Supposed to be something else"? Hawken has always been a faster paced, arena-styled shooter. Also, "immersive mech game" and "arena shooter" are not mutually exclusive. Can you please stop trying to make a slower paced mech sim out of a game that started out as a fast-paced arena shooter.

I can't remember if you played the Alpha, but I do know I did. And I do know that Hawken was intended to be an arena-shooter. It always has been.

What i'm saying is, if you compare the original alpha/beta design of Hawken to Quake/UT, you'll see that there is a considerable diffirence between these titles when it comes to the core game mechanics: for example, in Quake or UT your movement is not limited by a resource - fuel in case of Hawken - that you have to constantly manage, so you can jump around as much as you want. Same thing applies to weapons: in Quake and UT you can shoot away to your heart's content untill you ran out of ammo, but in Hawken there is another resource to manage - heat. Another thing that these titles don't share is the radar: Quake and UT simply don't have that, but in Hawken it is yet another resource, or a resource provider(information is a resource) that you have to pay attention to. Do you see what i'm saying here? Hawken is an arena FPS, of course. But it's not a classic arena FPS we all know, it does things in a different way. So i honestly don't understand why do you guys want to take away all it's unique features and turn it into something that it was never supposed to be, taking the original game concept into account. 

Edited by TheVulong, 25 March 2015 - 01:54 PM.

[Z1Alpha]

I just compare it to say quick-scoping in COD or something. It wasn't meant to be, but people liked it. I for one like the way it is now. Tones down that nonsense you find in games.

[AsianJoyKiller]

So i honestly don't understand why do you guys want to take away all it's unique features and turn it into something that it was never supposed to be, taking the original game concept into account. 

You're strawmanning. We don't.

 

I could use you logic and argue why you want to take away of of Hawken's unique feature and turn it into something it was never supposed to be, a plodding mech sim like MechWarriors.

[TheVulong]

You're strawmanning. We don't.

 

I could use you logic and argue why you want to take away of of Hawken's unique feature and turn it into something it was never supposed to be, a plodding mech sim like MechWarriors.

Something tells me that you're not the real AJK.. Because what i just read doesn't make any sense.

Edited by TheVulong, 25 March 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[Xacius]

Something tells me that you're not the real AJK.. Because what i just red doesn't make any sense.

 

You also spelled "read" as "red," i.e. the color.  I'd wager that you come to that conclusion quite frequently.  

[TheVulong]

You also spelled "read" as "red," i.e. the color.  I'd wager that you come to that conclusion quite frequently.  

"When there's nothing left to do, it's time to point out mistakes in someone's spelling".

Edited by TheVulong, 25 March 2015 - 08:05 PM.

[Fstroke]

When this was brought up before the re-occuring root complaint is that playing defensively was more encouraged and the aggressors were punished.

The anecdote often presented was the person waiting around the corner was always aware of the player boosting towards them and could time their attack while the aggressor has no counter, something the weapon raise glitch circumvented.

The root of that problem is radar that gives away too much information. It has a negative impact on more than that scenario. Radar needs to seriously be reconsidered, not removed completely, but it needs to reveal less information.

I have previously suggested sweep type radar and perhaps only giving signatures when firing.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

The anecdote often presented was the person waiting around the corner was always aware of the player boosting towards them and could time their attack while the aggressor has no counter, something the weapon raise glitch circumvented.

 

But is this not reality of warfare though? (Back to the Arena Shooter vs Mech Sim discussion.)

 

The aggressor/attacker is almost always at a disadvantage unless they have total suprise which is why you tend to attack with overwhelming superiority. (I will assume a mech with full boost and dragging against/bouncing off stuff isn't particularly hard to hear coming at you even in an idling Mech.)

 

I have previously suggested sweep type radar and perhaps only giving signatures when firing.

 

This is a reasonable answer but I might suggest that firing and boosting would likely both give enough of a signature to be detected. (Noise/Heat/Light/etc)

Edited by oSPANNERo, 26 March 2015 - 11:06 AM.

[Fstroke]

Reality or not, it doesn't make for dynamic balanced gameplay. That's why games often turn into stale mates, because the team that tries to advance is at a disadvantage. It is much safer and much smarter to turtle in a defensive position. Doesn't make for a good fast paced mech shooter.

Despite the raise delay you are giving the aggressor the additional disadvantage of giving away his position.

But I agree with you on one thing, if they remove that delay they might as well just take away the firing lockout while boosting altogether. The space bar is barely an inconvenience at that point.

[Black_Knight_Sky]

 if they remove that delay they might as well just take away the firing lockout while boosting altogether. The space bar is barely an inconvenience at that point.

This actually sounds like a lot of fun, but at the same time I don't know whether it's my kind of fun.

 

I find myself really wanting to try it though.

[AsianJoyKiller]

But I agree with you on one thing, if they remove that delay they might as well just take away the firing lockout while boosting altogether. The space bar is barely an inconvenience at that point.

Well that's simply not true... You move significantly faster while boosting, which drastically changes posititioning and aiming.

[Fstroke]

Well that's simply not true... You move significantly faster while boosting, which drastically changes posititioning and aiming.

Ever since that patch where they changed the physics, significant momentum, if not all is carried when you hop out of a boost. Sure its not as smooth as just boosting forward but you are still moving about as quickly. The jump glitch also benefits burst weapons way more than sustained as well. I'm not saying its the same necessarily, just that there will be certain mechs and weapon options that circumvent boost fire restriction more than others.

Regardless that may have been slightly hyperbolic on my part so I admit that but I do feel it causes issues.

My main point, what I really want to focus on, is the radar. Make changes to the radar and I think you will address some balance issues between defensive and aggressive play styles.

[PCP_MD]

Been ages since I played Hawken regularly, but as far as i can tell, not much has changed since Raider G2. I've been against the increase in boost delay since the day they added it for quite a few reasons. It slows down the combat too much. It ruined the game's fluidity. It affects balance in a negative way. It was detrimental to quick positioning adjustments, and thus reduced the level of skill that can go into tactical positioning. (short boosts used to be awesome on any mech for quickly changing position to one more tactically favourable, eg. split second boost towards a small object that is less than a dodge away for light cover.) It nerfs short range weapons and spin up weapons, not all light mechs (It did hurt scout gameplay more than any other mech, but that's because scouts are the boost focused short range mechs, but every other shotgun, spinup weapon, and chargeup weapon, wielding mech got a nerf too).

To illustrate what i mean, i'll compare the scout and the zerker. The scout has higher boost and walk speed, while the zerker is faster in the air. The zerker lost the shorthop attack, but that was the glitchfix, not the boost delay increase. The scout on the otherhand lost the ability to quickly reposition closer to an enemy to maintain effective range. This is extremely important for shotgun type weapons because they are worthless at long range and even bad at medium range. After the patch, with the added boost delay, getting in range for a shot with a shotgun meant giving the opponent a free shot at you and giving them far more time to react. Also, when chasing, the extra boost delay gave the opponent a chance to get out of effective range if you simply boosted and fired. It became more useful to boost, jump, then fire, when chasing, because it allowed for more forward velocity than waiting for the boost delay to end, then walking. I mained scout before the patch and would often forward-boost, shoot, forward-boost, shoot (not leaving the ground). After the patch, attempting to maintain effective range meant giving the opponent a free shot at me, every time i wanted to reposition quickly. The clunk is real. Got zerker later on, and despite the huge amount of time i spent maining scout, i was better as a zerker, simply because i was airbourne and didn't have to deal with a delay every time i wanted to fire. Zerkers can fly faster than any walking speed and fire without stopping, AND they have longer range than a scout. Zerkers lost a glitch, scouts lost their whole playstyle.

Defensive play was already extremely rewarding and did not need any additional buffs. Cornerhumping became the norm and the game DID get clunky. I got so tired of the clunk and so tired of the new meta that i just lost interest in Hawken entirely. As for people who try to argue against a boost delay decrease by claiming "realism", "twitch shooter", "unbalanced", "learning curve", my response is this:

For any issue, a solution that addresses the core of the issue will be better than a solution that works in a roundabout way and effects other aspects of the game in a haphazard way. Personally I feel like the patch was a way for the devs to try to "fix" a number of issues at once, with minimal effort. IMO it hurt gameplay, and did little to fix the real issues. IDK if any of you played Guild Wars 1, but they did an amazingly good job of balancing because they would release tiny patches with minor balance changes very often (about once a week in GW1s prime). I know Meteor isn't as well funded, and they're not Korean, but when i come back to a game after more than a year (not counting dead old games), I expect for SOMETHING to have changed. Devs are sleep. Post fuzzy bunnies.

Too high learning curve with more fluid gameplay? Fix matchmaking. Some of the mechs are overpowered? Adjust stats until they're balanced. Mechs don't feel real? Surprise, they're not. Sci-fi tech defines what a mech can or cannot do, and judging by current technology it would be easy to make the mechs able to shoot WHILE boosting, as well as autoaim and autododge, but that wouldn't make for a very good game. Make them feel like "real" mechs with audio and visual improvements. And lastly, Hawken can never be a twitch shooter. Mechs have a maximum turn rate, and even the lowest TTK situations are still not twitch shooter TTK. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that they didn't add "headshots" for this very reason.

[Nov8tr]

You do realize the OLD DEVS are gone. The old owners are gone. The old funding is gone. Hell even the Amazon cloud servers are gone. Reloaded just bought the game up and took over just days ago. :D Talk to LadyTiggs or capnjosh. They can help if you need it. Things are going to change. They actually talk to us. Get on the teamspeak channel and they are there sometimes. Really nice. These people actually appear to give a fuzzy bunny. Nice. Looking forward to what happens. And count me as one of the people who loved old Hawken. Yes the radar needs reduced. The delay needs to go. And with any luck it just might. Take care. :)

 

**EDIT** @ AJK I don't play consoles but I did go check out Zone of the Enders. Very impressive mate. Thanks. It was worth looking at anyhow.

Edited by Nov8tr, 27 March 2015 - 08:18 PM.

[PCP_MD]

You do realize the OLD DEVS are gone. The old owners are gone. The old funding is gone. Hell even the Amazon cloud servers are gone. Reloaded just bought the game up and took over just days ago. :D Talk to LadyTiggs or capnjosh. They can help if you need it. Things are going to change. They actually talk to us. Get on the teamspeak channel and they are there sometimes. Really nice. These people actually appear to give a fuzzy bunny. Nice. Looking forward to what happens. And count me as one of the people who loved old Hawken. Yes the radar needs reduced. The delay needs to go. And with any luck it just might. Take care. :)

fuzzy bunny yeah. It's about time. lol After seeing that nothing had changed i was thinking foreverabeta.jpg, but with new devs, anything is possible. :D

[TheVulong]

You do realize the OLD DEVS are gone. The old owners are gone. The old funding is gone. Hell even the Amazon cloud servers are gone. Reloaded just bought the game up and took over just days ago. :D Talk to LadyTiggs or capnjosh. They can help if you need it. Things are going to change. They actually talk to us. Get on the teamspeak channel and they are there sometimes. Really nice. These people actually appear to give a fuzzy bunny. Nice. Looking forward to what happens. And count me as one of the people who loved old Hawken. Yes the radar needs reduced. The delay needs to go. And with any luck it just might. Take care. :)

You do remember that constant changes is what f*cked the game over, right? If you want Hawken to keep losing players then yeah, we need to start changing things again. Of course..

 

The game is fine as it is, calm the f*ck down already.

 

P.S. Talking about game mechanics here. I'm all up for new servers and new content.

Edited by TheVulong, 27 March 2015 - 04:00 AM.

[comic_sans]

The game is fine as it is

 

Time to do what I do best: take things out of context!

[TheVulong]

Time to do what I do best: take things out of context!

Go nuts.

[Elite_is_salty]

The only people who want this back are godly scout fuzzy bunny. Screw all of you.

[Black_Knight_Sky]

Nah, I'm actually pretty mediocre in my scout. I think this would boost all mech classes. It could even be done in the form of an internal, like a "weapon stability lock" item that keeps weapons in place during movement or something along those lines. Could make it take up a lot of internal space for balance so you couldn't use it in tandem with the Air Compressor.

[AsianJoyKiller]

The only people who want this back are godly scout fuzzy bunny. Screw all of you.

Brawler 4 lyfe yo.

[Houruck]

You also spelled "read" as "red," i.e. the color.  I'd wager that you come to that conclusion quite frequently.  

I do not wish to derail this thread too much, so only click on the spoiler tag bellow if you are interested in my response.

 

Spoiler

Dismissing someone's argument because of a spelling error is a logical fallacy and quite pathetic if you ask me. Especially if the person in question is not a native English speaker. You actually made the same foolish blunder USM999 had*.

 

TheVulong's mistake is indeed quite common, let me explaint it to you. Since I know you generalise a lot I hope you do not mind if I do the same. You see, most of us Europeans can speak at least two languages fluently, some even know three or four! However I, for example studied German in school and I picked up English from video games. This is the reason I only know the spelling of some words — because I have never heard them pronounced — or vice versa, hence he spelt if phonetically.

 

And because of this, back in BSB I was baffled to see that my vocabulary is superior to some of my NA mates. I can not grasp why these people failed to learn the basics of their mother tongue and never bothered to gain fluency in other ones (even from the same language family or from neighbouring countries). I am a grammar nazi, especially in Hungarian (I frequently edit Wikipedia pages just to correct grammatical errors) and I still resisted to lecture my fellow teammates about the difference between your and you're. *My signature has a hidden quote from OmegaNull. As you can probably guess, he meant "undetectable manner". USM999 followed the same line of reasoning as you and he tried to discredit OmegaNull because of this. Even though Omega was harsh, he was right about the issue at hand. A hint before you start to look for mistakes in my post: I prefer British spelling.

 

tl;dr

Do not criticise someone's second language if you are monolingual.

Edited by Houruck, 28 March 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[Xacius]

I do not wish to derail this thread too much, so only click on the spoiler tag bellow if you are interested in my response.

 

Spoiler

Dismissing someone's argument because of a spelling error is a logical fallacy and quite pathetic if you ask me. Especially if the person in question is not a native English speaker. You actually made the same foolish blunder USM999 had*.

 

TheVulong's mistake is indeed quite common, let me explaint it to you. Since I know you generalise a lot I hope you do not mind if I do the same. You see, most of us Europeans can speak at least two languages fluently, some even know three or four! However I, for example studied German in school and I picked up English from video games. This is the reason I only know the spelling of some words — because I have never heard them pronounced — or vice versa, hence he spelt if phonetically.

 

And because of this, back in BSB I was baffled to see that my vocabulary is superior to some of my NA mates. I can not grasp why these people failed to learn the basics of their mother tounge and never bothered to gain fluency in other ones (even from the same language family or from neighbouring countries). I am a grammar nazi, especially in Hungarian (I frequently edit Wikipedia pages just to correct grammatical errors) and I still resisted to lecture my fellow teammates about the difference between your and you're. *My signature has a hidden quote from OmegaNull. As you can probably guess, he meant "undetectable manner". USM999 followed the same line of reasoning as you and he tried to discredit OmegaNull because of this. Even though Omega was harsh, he was right about the issue at hand. A hint before you start to look for mistakes in my post: I prefer British spelling.

 

tl;dr

Do not criticise someone's second language if you are monolingual.

 

 

Lol.  

 

It was more of a joke than anything.  I couldn't care less tbh.  

 

I've dismissed his argument based on numerous conditions.  That was not one of them.  

Edited by Xacius, 28 March 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[Xacius]

You do remember that constant changes is what f*cked the game over, right? If you want Hawken to keep losing players then yeah, we need to start changing things again. Of course..

 

The game is fine as it is, calm the f*ck down already.

 

P.S. Talking about game mechanics here. I'm all up for new servers and new content.

 

Constant, sweeping changes are what drove many players away.  Things like adding the tech, completely reworking heat mechanics, overhauling the HUD, etc... 

 

A lot of the minor edits to mechanics and gameplay were received positively.  Remember when they buffed acceleration so mechs wouldn't take 2 seconds to reach full run speed?  Or how about when they removed hitstun from explosions?  Remember around the Steam Update when they made mechs retain their momentum after hovering?  Before, mechs would land and come to a complete halt.  Now, momentum is transferred from air movement to ground movement.  

 

Minor tweaks, especially those that add to the game or do away with minor inconveniences, are often beneficial.  

Edited by Xacius, 28 March 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[Nept]

Lol.  

 

It was more of a joke than anything.  I could care less tbh.  

 

I've dismissed his argument based on numerous conditions.  That was not one of them.  

Couldn't* care less.

[Xacius]

Couldn't* care less.

 

2 mlg for propper gramer

[Nov8tr]

What a lovely pair of coconuts !

[-Tj-]

I think I'd prefer a reduction in the raise delay as opposed to a removal. I don't mind so much that it's there anymore, but it sure does annoy when I know it's what's keeping me from firing.

 

Originally, when they fixed the bug, it felt like something was wrong with the game. In a way, it still does. In another way, I wonder if removing or reducing the raise delay would help new players get into the game quicker. Less raise delay would mean faster, smoother-feeling engagements. (that's what she said)

[FlamingBeaker]

removed, off topic

Edited by FlamingBeaker, 28 March 2015 - 05:05 PM.

[Houruck]

Lol.  
 
It was more of a joke than anything.  I couldn't care less tbh.  
 
I've dismissed his argument based on numerous conditions.  That was not one of them.

Sorry for sounding like a fuzzy bunny but I had to level with you.
 
I was aware of the weapon delay bug on a subconscious level and used it.
 
 

Bug or not, a feature is a feature.  Once fixed, its implementation should be considered in the event that it added something to the game.  Did you know that the entire "skiing" component of Tribes was originally a bug?  In later iterations of the franchise, the developers took that bug and built the games around it.  Tribes wouldn't be what it is today without that "bug."

The same goes for rocket jumping, strafe jumping, plasma climbing and other trick moves. These all started as bugs in the game and now they are considered features the games build upon. The developers of these games and its successors decided to keep them, but ADH stated that the delay was never intended and they removed it.
 
 

The same argument can be made for people that modify graphics settings, or turn up FOV in the config menu.  
 
By your logic, we should probably remove the remote-det on secondary weapons because people that have knowledge of it possess a distinct advantage over those that don't.  We'd also need to get rid of extra crosshair customization, internals, items, and any other feature that takes time to understand/comprehend.

The remote detonation is something new players must learn in the tutorial to be able to complete it. This and the other things you listed are all features planned to be in the game and they are communicated as such

Edited by Houruck, 28 March 2015 - 11:16 PM.

[TheVulong]

Constant, sweeping changes are what drove many players away.  Things like adding the tech, completely reworking heat mechanics, overhauling the HUD, etc... 

 

A lot of the minor edits to mechanics and gameplay were received positively.  Remember when they buffed acceleration so mechs wouldn't take 2 seconds to reach full run speed?  Or how about when they removed hitstun from explosions?  Remember around the Steam Update when they made mechs retain their momentum after hovering?  Before, mechs would land and come to a complete halt.  Now, momentum is transferred from air movement to ground movement.  

 

Minor tweaks, especially those that add to the game or do away with minor inconveniences, are often beneficial.  

Finally, bashing heads resulted in some kind of understanding. We only need minor tweaks, not massive changes. I can see the point behind reducing the weapon raise delay and i also see the point behind making the AC universal but what i absolutely disagree with is complete removal or simplification of a core game mechanic like radar. You have to understand that this thing hasn't changed since day 1 of the alpha - it has always been what it is: the main source of info that affects your decisions on the battlefield, and making even slight tweaks to it, like making it to not show boosting enemies, will have a huge impact on the meta and the way people play the game which will once again result in dividing the comunity and losing players. 

 

P.S. My claims are based on my own experience as i've happened to play a good chunk of no-radar matches on a custom server. The game feels totally different that way.

Edited by TheVulong, 29 March 2015 - 12:44 AM.

[Nept]

Finally, bashing heads resulted in some kind of understanding. We only need minor tweaks, not massive changes. I can see the point behind reducing the weapon raise delay and i also see the point behind making the AC universal but what i absolutely disagree with is complete removal or simplification of a core game mechanic like radar.

 

How do you simplify what has to be the simplest (and most powerful) radar system that I've experienced within a shooter? 

[Hyginos]

How do you simplify what has to be the simplest (and most powerful) radar system that I've experienced within a shooter? 

 

No radar is simpler than strong radar.

 

You could say that the less stuff the radar does the more "simple" it is, but "simple" in this case as a rather subjective qualifier.

 

Unrelated: "simpler" is one of those words that just doesn't sound right after you say it in your head a few times.

[TheVulong]

How do you simplify what has to be the simplest (and most powerful) radar system that I've experienced within a shooter? 

How is it the simpliest? Just what the hell do you even mean? When i'm talking about simplification i mean making the radar less useful. The whole point of the radar is to give you info, and if it gives you less info then not only it is less useful but it also makes you care about it less. In other words the amount of attention you have to pay to it goes down alongside with all the tactics and "mind games" situations it otherwise provides.

[crockrocket]

The only people who want this back are godly scout fuzzy bunny. Screw all of you.

Wait, so I can say fuzzy bunny but I can't say s.crub? Well that's bull

Edited by crockrocket, 29 March 2015 - 08:05 AM.