105 replies to this topic

[Silverfire]

The root problem I find is that there aren't enough players, and therefore not a large enough MMR pool. Increase the players and the MMR pool will increase. More varied MMR, more servers available for all ranges, etc. Easier said than done, but I think that is the problem.

I fully support the idea of noobie beginner servers with an option to opt out if a beginner wants to tangle with the big boys once in a while.

Edited by Silverfire, 24 August 2015 - 02:51 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

I saw several comments that pertain to opening/'unlocking' all-access to servers over 2200ish.  The only problem there is, do you want that to be the "average" or the rank of the highest MMR player in a match?  A match that has players from 1400 - 2500 (which is almost every 3 star match I play in) has an average MMR of 1950.

 

As for "smurfs", I mostly try to just roll my eyes and not care.  But this weekend, jeezus!!!  Seemed like 50% of every player I encountered was a smurf that was below rank 10, sporting an MMR of less than 1800... but racking up massive scores.  And lots of smurf parties too.  Bloody miserable.

[Hyginos]

As for "smurfs", I mostly try to just roll my eyes and not care.  But this weekend, jeezus!!!  Seemed like 50% of every player I encountered was a smurf that was below rank 10, sporting an MMR of less than 1800... but racking up massive scores.  And lots of smurf parties too.  Bloody miserable.

 

That would be due to the double HC weekend I imagine. 

[hellc9943]

[HHJFTRU]

A match that has players from 1400 - 2500 (which is almost every 3 star match I play in) has an average MMR of 1950.

 

Exactly. Beginners (under 1500 MMR) drag the server average down heavily, and high MMR people can't find suitable servers even if there are quite some people who they could play some relatively good games with.

[StubbornPuppet]

Exactly. Beginners (under 1500 MMR) drag the server average down heavily, and high MMR people can't find suitable servers even if there are quite some people who they could play some relatively good games with.

Oh, come on.  It's totally unfair to blame the 'beginners' for the highly skilled players not being able to find servers.  The fault is completely on matchmaking ever allowing for servers range to get that far spread out.

[Sp3ctrr]

I fully support the idea of noobie beginner servers with an option to opt out if a beginner wants to tangle with the big boys once in a while.

 

This.

 

Chivalry has New Player servers which lock out players of rank 16 and above. Obviously doesn't stop smurfs and once you hit rank 16 your life is an utter misery but hey-ho, It allows you to get a feel for the game.

[M4st0d0n]

Ah please. The population is not mature enough to form a real active comp scene, hence the smurfs. Why would a noob perpetually get stomped? To get better at what exactly? To reach an arbitrary number throwing matchmaker to sheit and then create a smurf to be able to stomp in his own right?

 

You just have to see the failure when most people here are in clans, or in teamspeak, owns their private servers, and still have to resort to their smurfes because they dont find a game at 5 AM. It's pathetic.

[Hyginos]

Ah please. The population is not LARGE enough...

 

FTFY.

 

Whenever you have a matchmaking system like this the fringes will have trouble finding games. Even in a game like LoL smurfing is common practice among high ranked players. The difference in LoL, why it isn't a huge issue there, is that the population is large enough to dilute the smurf density to the point where it is not a problem.

[devotion]

drunken rant

https://community.pl...gion-selection/

 

made that post literally the day the region selection got changed.

 

 

following Amid around

a noble endeavor

[HHJFTRU]

Oh, come on.  It's totally unfair to blame the 'beginners' for the highly skilled players not being able to find servers.  The fault is completely on matchmaking ever allowing for servers range to get that far spread out.

Nonono. I basically agree with that you just said. I'm just trying to point out (over and over) again the obvious that high skilled players need to be separated from beginners. I don't like to see this as a vets vs noobs war because it's the systems's fault that the two groups are allowed to ruin each other's experience.

Edited by HHJFTRU, 24 August 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

^Cool.

I wish I were a mathematician so I could express, in a formula, a way to figure out where and when to cap the match skill level at the top and bottom.  I keep seeing matches deviation grow because a lower or higher mmr player is within the tolerance and joins.  There has to be some good way to prevent a match that starts out with 2 1950 players from turning into a 1400 to 2500 spread.  Something like looking at the middle and saying it can never grow further than 300 past that in either direction.  Something...

[Nov8tr]

I have 5 accounts. My main and 4 alts. For those who don't know I'll name them. I do not attempt to hide them. They all range in the 1500 to 1600 range. My main is Nov8tr. I also have: Old_Man_Nov, I_Come_In_Peace, Robo-Tech and Comfortably_Numb. For those who don't know the disablitlies I play with, check my profile. I am a average player, and at my age I'll never be a top level player. I just wanted to put that out again so no one can accuse me of "stomping" anyone. Yes I win a lot, because I play a lot. I also get my butt handed to me. Shrug.

 

Yes I see players alt accts. I recognize some by their chosen names or playstyles. Most are indeed just trying to find matches. I get it. But there are the occasional one who is there to stomp people. I've ran into several who actually openly admitted it and defied anyone to do anything about it. Belittled all the other players, In other words, a real low life loser. I do see people cheat. Not as much as some think, but yeah they exist. The smart ones turn it off and on just enough to give the edge to win. But the snap, snap, snap is there to see. I've even had some openly admit it. One even argued it was allowed. I've saw two teams who were doing it. All of them. One even bragged about it. Both of those were in the servers in the Orient area.

 

I still belive a lot of the problem on low population count and the MATCHMAKERS inability to work with low populations and the fact it has never worked well. Not since day one and not when it had high population and not in other games it is used in. Basically it is broken. Always has been. Always will be. Open the servers to all and GET A NEW WAY of matchmaking that works. A program will only work as well as it is written. If it is poorly written it will never work well. I think that is obvious here. The declining population again is proof of that. We need a system that will work and allow everyone to play. IMO of course.

Edited by Nov8tr, 24 August 2015 - 09:57 PM.

[NotCrafty]

I really don't see what all the fuss is about in the first place.

[StubbornPuppet]

I really don't see what all the fuss is about in the first place.

Oh, that's priceless.

[Liederkranz]

As many said: stomping is not a problem that exists because smurfs exist, stomping will continue happening because the way MM works now, it will eventually drop a 2400 MMR player into a server where the average is 1700 if it can't find anything else.

 

Server unlocking would make things easier. In fact, I'd even include the server rating in the listings and the player's MMR right next to their callsign. This way, anyone will have the freedom to join the server he wants and will know what he's getting into. If the servers are unlocked and I only find 2500 MMR servers available (being 2100 MMR myself) I will be able to join them knowing that I'll get my ass handed to me if I want some challenge, and if I want to play with ppl at my level and there aren't any, well I'll have to close the game and come back later but at least I'll have the chance to play right away without waiting.

 

I no longer play in US, I only play in SA and the playerbase over there is MUCH smaller than anywhere else (less than 100 players http://home.xshade.c.../South-America/) t's a real pain in the ass to play because sometimes nobody of the ppl that plays in SA is online. I have the luck of knowing most of the regular SA players so we agree in advance and play alltogheter if we're online.

 

Sometimes I get thrown in lower MMR servers because it's the only one available with ppl in it. I try techniques like the one nepa posted: engage, kill, NOT heal and continue engaging, I will get killed eventually, that avoids the godlike feeling that beginners may get, and it also encourages them to get better because they could kill a higher ranked player with effort. Sometimes I use only primary or only secondary, also mechs that I'm not used to, in order to balance things out a little.

 

If I'm playing with ppl at my level and a newborn gets thrown in (because of the same reason of being the only server available with ppl in it), I welcome him to the game and give him some basic tips, also offer help in anything related to mechanics. Most of my mates try to do the same. I'm glad that with this I'm avoiding that ppl get frustrated with the game and they keep coming, but the number of ppl in SA is still small.

Edited by Liederkranz, 25 August 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

Just splits my sides with laughter when a level 10 player rocks a 2300 point Siege match with a 19-1 KDR and says "Wow!, I've only been playing this under two weeks and I'm really getting good."

[Nov8tr]

How about the guy who gets 900 points in TDM and says this is my first match ever with a straight face like it is the truth or someone is going to believe him.

Edited by Nov8tr, 27 August 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

Dear GAWD it was bad last night.  Every match was 50% level 1-10 Assaults where the SRD was 1450-1950... and massive, relentless stomping was the daily special.

[M4st0d0n]

FTFY.

 

Whenever you have a matchmaking system like this the fringes will have trouble finding games. Even in a game like LoL smurfing is common practice among high ranked players. The difference in LoL, why it isn't a huge issue there, is that the population is large enough to dilute the smurf density to the point where it is not a problem.

 

No it's not mature enough. I wish all the best to you peeps who try to motivate people and organize competitive play. It should be hardcoded, like in other shooters. We should have had a clan system for age, so prop for all the hard work. But some vets that stayed got some bad habits because they're prepubescents with too much spare time wanting to try hard in a beta. No leaderboard, no comp play, no endgame, just farming MMR on the main. COLs should see how it's hurting what they're trying to do, and the game in a whole. Right now nobody will get a decent game of Hawken anywhere outside the primetime with the matchmaker. If people dont try to organize themselves to play together they could at least spare the sorry comments of waiting like tards in front of their screen for eight minutes and then beg to open the server because they stuffed too much of their own MMR up their mains. It's maths, not magic.

[Silverfire]

No it's not mature enough. I wish all the best to you peeps who try to motivate people and organize competitive play. It should be hardcoded, like in other shooters. We should have had a clan system for age, so prop for all the hard work. But some vets that stayed got some bad habits because they're prepubescents with too much spare time wanting to try hard in a beta. No leaderboard, no comp play, no endgame, just farming MMR on the main. COLs should see how it's hurting what they're trying to do, and the game in a whole. Right now nobody will get a decent game of Hawken anywhere outside the primetime with the matchmaker. If people dont try to organize themselves to play together they could at least spare the sorry comments of waiting like tards in front of their screen for eight minutes and then beg to open the server because they stuffed too much of their own MMR up their mains. It's maths, not magic.

 

Leaderboards

 

Comp play(NA)

 

Comp play(EU)

 

Sorry you're unaware of community activity

Edited by Silverfire, 28 August 2015 - 09:19 AM.

[Hyginos]

...No leaderboard, no comp play, no endgame, just farming MMR on the main. COLs should see how it's hurting what they're trying to do, and the game in a whole. Right now nobody will get a decent game of Hawken anywhere outside the primetime with the matchmaker. If people dont try to organize themselves to play together they could at least spare the sorry comments of waiting like tards in front of their screen for eight minutes and then beg to open the server because they stuffed too much of their own MMR up their mains. It's maths, not magic.

 

Uh, you been living under a rock?

 

We've had a leaderboard for months, we've run 3 seasons of league play and numerous cups in NA, plus a tournament that is just wrapping up in EU, we've been running organized public pugs every wednesday for like a year (and we used to do it on friday as well), and there are about a half dozen teams who scrim semi-regularly, not to mention random pick up games started by someone inviting their entire friends list to a server and hopping into teamspeak.

 

...and all but one of those links go to threads on this very forum.

 

EDIT: silverfire is a ninja

Edited by Hyginos, 28 August 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

Kinda missed my point huh... You dont have a leaderboard, you've got a list of people with their MMR sorted. If only half of them were playing one comp game a week you'll have twitch links flooding this very forum.

[Silverfire]

Kinda missed my point huh... You dont have a leaderboard, you've got a list of people with their MMR sorted. If only half of them were playing one comp game a week you'll have twitch links flooding this very forum.

 

Spoiler

 

I think you've missed the point.  There's a leaderboard right there.  

 

What do you propose the leaderboards be based off of?  A rating that ranks us match to match, rising and falling with our own individual performance? No? Okay.

 

You also can't prove this.

 

If only half of them were playing one comp game a week you'll have twitch links flooding this very forum.

 

 

Not everyone has the internet to stream.  I do, but I don't have the computer to, nor the time.  A lot of people play on setups that can't stream or don't have the internet to stream.  So god forbid we don't have streaming capabilities, we're doomed.  And when there are matches, there are usually players streaming those matches.  Who would've guessed.   

 

We have over 80 people participating in the competitive league, one you completely deny actually exists 

 

 no comp play

 

And competitive gameplay and teamwork isn't for everyone clearly. Some people aren't interested in it.  Not everyone has the time, I barely scrape together enough time to commit to my team, and it takes more work than you might think to organize over a dozen people to be able to play a match, or scrim, or practice on any given day of the week. So please, if you are so enlightened to deny the existence of a working, functioning leaderboard and a lack of any competitive scene at all, please tell us what we should be doing that we aren't doing already.

Edited by Silverfire, 28 August 2015 - 10:34 AM.

[Hyginos]

If only half of them were playing one comp game a week you'll have twitch links flooding this very forum.

 

We would have VOD spam?

 

Yeah.

 

I

 

guess

 

we

 

would

 

(note that those are just from the front page of the "streaming and video" section on August 28, there are plenty more)

[M4st0d0n]

I think you've missed the point.  There's a leaderboard right there.  

 

And competitive gameplay and teamwork isn't for everyone clearly. Some people aren't interested in it.  Not everyone has the time, I barely scrape together enough time to commit to my team, and it takes more work than you might think to organize over a dozen people to be able to play a match, or scrim, or practice on any given day of the week. So please, if you are so enlightened to deny the existence of a working, functioning leaderboard and a lack of any competitive scene at all, please tell us what we should be doing that we aren't doing already.

 

I'll say this again, to be sure you understand, but I fear we'll be running in circles soon. Props to you and the others for all the works and efforts you're putting. TPG links should be added on the front page of the site, like every other MP games where there is community events, it should be embedded in the launcher, at the start of the game.

 

Back to the leaderboard/comp play discussion and how MMR as a leaderboard generates smurfes. There are seasonal leaderboards and ranked matches on every other shooters out there nowadays. With one single click you get a ranked match, that's the whole endgame. Hawken has no comp play, it has no endgame (quote it 1000 times out of context at your leasure). Last time I checked it hadnt even decent servers. Now you've got private servers (for the quick buck to the devs) but before peeps in EU were organizing community events in PUBs and it was a pain in the ass to explain to pubes what we were trying to do. We even had to ruse with broken MM to set teams. It was fuzzy bunnyng nonsense to try to organize comp play around a beta game that didnt even wanted to have it.

 

MMR is just a stat for pub matches, if matchmaker is broken so is MMR. You've got a list of 150 people here that are like 2300+ MMR. That's like half of the active playerbase. Where the feck did they vanished? (Yeah I know it's rethorical). PUBs are and will forever be for casual play, you've got stomping tryhards, mkay why not, that's one way to play. I dont think you can get decent comp play out of that, but hey, I'll be glad to be wrong if this happen one day. I would LOVE to play Hawken with decent team play, strategies and friendly fire one day.