62 replies to this topic

[IareDave]

This is an issue that many people are not directly effected by, and yet it is the reason for countless threads by players who protest individuals who smurf and the impact they have on games. Specifically, smurfs tilt the balance of games, ruin peoples precious mmr, and ultimately make it an unpleasurable experiences for all - even the damn smurfs. 

 

So, why do people smurf? Well, speaking from firsthand experience, I smurf because I can't manually join a single game. I just want to have some fun dammit, and fun to me isn't being limited to a CRT for a dozen hours of play, and yet because of the current matchmaking system, my main account is forced to auto join which can take 5+ minutes. More often than not, it places me with players who are stuck in the very low mmr bracket (Sub 1200) who also have trouble joining games. Through some simple observation using the hawken server app (made by Shadeness), I have noted that players are only able to manually join rooms that are 500+/- your rounded mmr (ie. 2520 mmr is considered 2550 in the app/ingame). 

 

Here's the issue. If a player with 2600 mmr wants to join a server with an avg. of 2000, he must use the auto join feature. In the unknown elapsed time it takes for the game to place him into the server, the typical result is that A. the server gets filled up, or B. it places you with other lower tier players who are also having trouble joining a server. The fix is simple (atleast on paper) - if you can't manually join the highest available server in the game at that time, then the matchmaking should place you into a room that is closest to your skill level - likewise with the lowertier players. 

 

Now, I know some people have this opinion that smurfs are the devil and that these smurfs are beaming with ecstasy from blowing up casuals who haven't even figured out the dodge key. I can't speak for others on this matter, but I know personally I would much rather use my own mechs and layouts, and have the matches I join balanced accordingly based on my skill level as to prevent a complete stomp on one side. That's all I have to say, the rest is up to the devs. to decide how they should go about this issue after they are done settling in. 

[opicr0n]

It is also up to us to play different when joining an low mmr server. I tend to dodge in front of the freds and have them hone their aiming and fleeing when on low mmr energy. It can be pretty much fun that way too ^^. I must admit I am not always in that mood and just fire away at everything moving.

 

When the servers are filling up, and they already are more populated I have the feeling, old players coming back etc we will have to worry less and less about it.

Edited by opicr0n, 24 March 2015 - 12:21 PM.

[OmegaNull]

Is there anything I can add to this? *thinks* Nope. 

[crockrocket]

IMO MMR locking, or at least MMR locking to the current extent, will only work with a significantly larger playerbase.

I have been vehemently opposed to MMR locking from the first week I played. I got into this game because of IRL friends, friends that I often had trouble getting into a match with. By the time I bottomed out below 1400 (new accounts were 1500 a year ago), it was so bad I considered quitting. If new accounts started at 1250 as they do now, I would have quit hawken, absolutely no question about it.

Since then I've been improving, to my current 1800-1900 MMR range. And MMR locking has been an issue the entire time. A lot of my improvement came through organized events such as war Wednesday. Even at these events, I would have to inconvenience the entire server (when not using private servers) by having the top players hop out while I hopped in.

As I made friends with players from these events and would try and play with them, we would go through the same process.

Even more recently - and this is with me above 1870 MMR - when we get the crew together on west we have to hope the 2 - 2.2k players join first, otherwise either the 1.8s or 2.5s sometimes have to queue manually.

TL;DR: MMR locking is complete and utter fuzzy bunny and has been my least favorite part of this game since day 1. Hell, I even hated it more than I hated Fred as a n00b.

[Merl61]

Dave. Dave. Dave. You are so right. You are beyond right. Thank you for actually being correct. I was so relieved to finally hear a voice of reason. We don't smurf because it's fun. We do it because we have to. CapnJosh pls help.

[SigmaOmega]

I know everyone doesnt have this but you can join off low level friends. (thanks users in teamspeak). I guess until the player base gets bigger, it will be an issue

[DerMax]

So how about you lose a bunch of times on purpose to lower your precious mmr?

 

Also, how fun is it to play against people who you can beat with your eyes closed? How do you derive any pleasure from that? I would much rather not play at all that play against people who can barely do anything against me.

[SigmaOmega]

So how about you lose a bunch of times on purpose to lower your precious mmr?

 

Also, how fun is it to play against people who you can beat with your eyes closed? How do you derive any pleasure from that? I would much rather not play at all that play against people who can barely do anything against me.

I am a returning member and I have been getting stomped lately in matches while trying to relearn the game.

[Amidatelion]

I know everyone doesnt have this but you can join off low level friends. (thanks users in teamspeak). I guess until the player base gets bigger, it will be an issue

 

Unfortunately, no you can't. It will say the server is out of your range.

 

You would have to organize something to add incrementally higher-level players to slowly level the server to your level. 

[ticklemyiguana]

So how about you lose a bunch of times on purpose to lower your precious mmr?

 Because that's no better than having a smurf account. The player is still just as good, they just have an intentionally deflated MMR. It leads to wildly imbalanced games in a system that already produces imbalanced games.

[crockrocket]

Heres my issue with the above, perspective. You mentioned "fun", and I ask you what is fun about getting absolutely obliterated repeatedly by an obviously superior player? Please take the time to answer that honestly, and don't result to personal attacks, this isn't the place for that. Don't cop the skill gap excuse, I asked you what is fun about losing. Currently the game is extremely "fun" for the most skilled player in every lobby. The weaker end up being just feeders for the prey and often the result is just getting shoved back down the MMR ladder and losing hours if not days of slow grinding progress.


The question there is are you still overly strong because of your inherent skills in such a condition, when you join ANY match with lower ranked players do you still MVP every round? I'm willing to say that 90% of the time whether you are on a brand new smurf or on your main you get first place, and about 99% of the time you get within the top 2.

What the game needs is protection. Protection from the great white sharks that are out only to feed on the casuals you look down upon and thumb your nose at.

I'm sorry that your personal goal is to inflate your MMR to the highest number it can possibly be, and then not realize that you are the sole cause of your own alienation. I'm sorry that there is nobody else on your skill level to play against, but I don't see how being allowed to just stomp players 700 MMR lower is best for anyone but you to have unlimited amounts of your perception of "fun" at the expense of others.



BTW, I thought we already came to a conclusion about this on Reddit before our conversation was deleted. Here, let me repost it for you.

Just out of curiosity, what do you propose the highest level players do? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or guess at your intentions, but seems to my like you want to see more stringent MMR restrictions, and no smurfing. Seems to me like that would limit the highest bracket of players to a couple matches a week, and even then not full ones.

[Nept]

 

 

BTW, I thought we already came to a conclusion about this on Reddit before our conversation was deleted.  Here, let me repost it for you.

 

You can't take the conditional out of a conditional statement and pretend that it accords with your view.

Edited by LadyTiggs, 24 March 2015 - 03:55 PM.
removed video be constructive

[Amidatelion]

 

Please take the time to answer that honestly, and don't result to personal attacks, this isn't the place for that. 

 

(...One hundred and fifty-one words later...)

 

What the game needs is protection.  Protection from the great white sharks that are out only to feed on the casuals you look down upon and thumb your nose at.

[comic_sans]

Thats a good question.  Honestly its not my problem, my problem is getting roflstomped by those sharks making the game unfun resulting in me losing progress.  I have experienced more fun in matches when scrimbot reports the average and deviation to be relatively close to my MMR.  The matches are longer, the team momentum swings back and forth, and usually the scores at the end of the match are much closer.

 

I'm just cherry picking to give you a hard time, but come on, those mayhem games we played the other day were fuuuuuuun and the mmr range was almost literally all over the place.

 

Also, nice to finally play with you.

[ThirdEyE]

 Because that's no better than having a smurf account. The player is still just as good, they just have an intentionally deflated MMR. It leads to wildly imbalanced games in a system that already produces imbalanced games.

 

Imo tanking your mmr is preferable to smurfing.  There's almost always a server at 2100+ rating, which means someone at 2600 should be able to join, right?  There's only a handful of people (20 or so) rated higher than 2600, and there's guaranteed to be better balance when they're playing at ~200 handicap instead of smurfing for 10 hours to get back up to relatively even mmr.  This way you get to use all your main account progression as well, which is something dave mentioned.

 

Honestly its not my problem, my problem is getting roflstomped by those sharks making the game unfun resulting in me losing progress.

 

The thing is, their problem is pretty much directly causing your problem.  Unfortunately there's no easy solution :(

[FullMetalBtch]

Hawken is still the only game where a collection of people support filtering games by skill level to protect lower skill level players. Brand new players sure, however players that have been playing the game but simply aren't as good as another person complaining being in the same room as those people blows my mind

[RedVan]

Heres my issue with the above, perspective. You mentioned "fun", and I ask you what is fun about
getting absolutely obliterated repeatedly by an obviously superior player? Please take the time to answer that honestly, and don't result to personal attacks, this isn't the place for that. Don't cop the skill gap excuse, I asked you what is fun about losing. Currently the game is extremely "fun" for the most skilled player in every lobby. The weaker end up being just feeders for the prey and often the result is just getting shoved back down the MMR ladder and losing hours if not days of slow grinding progress.


The question there is are you still overly strong because of your inherent skills in such a condition, when you join ANY match with lower ranked players do you still MVP every round? I'm willing to say that 90% of the time whether you are on a brand new smurf or on your main you get first place, and about 99% of the time you get within the top 2.

What the game needs is protection. Protection from the great white sharks that are out only to feed on the casuals you look down upon and thumb your nose at.

I'm sorry that your personal goal is to inflate your MMR to the highest number it can possibly be, and then not realize that you are the sole cause of your own alienation. I'm sorry that there is nobody else on your skill level to play against, but I don't see how being allowed to just stomp players 700 MMR lower is best for anyone but you to have unlimited amounts of your perception of "fun" at the expense of others.



BTW, I thought we already came to a conclusion about this on Reddit before our conversation was deleted. Here, let me repost it for you.

Did you read daves post?


Also, all this talk of a larger, or even increasing, player base is wishful thinking. The same argument was used in the early days of MMR, and it never happened. People had the same problem.

If the player base gets larger, sure, make MMR more restrictive. Until then, let people play.

[Nept]

 

I'm sorry that your personal goal is to inflate your MMR to the highest number it can possibly be . . .

 

 

The weaker end up being just feeders for the prey and often the result is just getting shoved back down the MMR ladder and losing hours if not days of slow grinding progress.

 

MMR's a rating system for matchmaking purposes, not a rank or a race to the highest number.  Now you often claim Dave's playing only for his MMR, but it seems (and this isn't the first time you've written something similar) that you're every bit as concerned with your own MMR. 

 

Honestly, I don't care that you're both watching your MMR progression.  Just don't pretend that you're not, and that it's not a motivating factor behind your constant complaining.

Edited by Nept, 24 March 2015 - 04:35 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

Dave should probably just quit forever instead of making up dumb excuses for stomping new players like he did in the first post

[?FTD? eXeon]

Sometimes I think the MMR system is terrible, it really shapes the way people think. Instead of getting disheartened you lost some mmr why not be thrilled you got to have some practice vs some of the best players?

[crockrocket]

Who's Dave again?


If the matchmaking system figures that a match of +/-400 is not an acceptable match for me to join, why should someone who is 2700+ be given free reign to play down to a level of ~2000?

If there are no matches available for him to be placed into, there are NO matches for him to be placed into, it shouldn't just pick one thats out of its acceptable range in order to accommodate a single players perception of "fun" at the expense of others.

At the same time MMR blocking might be able to preserve your perception of "fun", it also blocks some players - both high and low - from enjoying their perception of "fun". Just be aware that any way you slice this, not everyone gets to have their way.

Edited by crockrocket, 24 March 2015 - 06:43 PM.

[RedVan]

Honestly, I didn't enjoy it much at all which is why I quickly left after it was over. I felt way out of my league like always when I see those names and yes my MMR did suffer further helping my unenjoyment. People have a different perception of what fun is. Also the performance of the server was horrible, I noticed some jitteriness that I've not ever seen before, and I even played on the old 32 man servers (I even remember a 64 man one) on a crappier machine with the old HUD.



I'm not sure I agree on that. Their problem is the lack of other players in their skill level being available at unpopular times, right? When they organize and collaborate they don't suffer the issues finding matches. The issues are when there are no other high skilled players around for them to play against.

I don't have a problem finding people closer to my skill level at any time, so why is it acceptable for them to play down 700 MMR and further boost their MMR while doing it? Is it acceptable for me to get into a room thats 700 MMR lower and stomp on the them? If I wanted to pummel people that were much less skilled than me, I'd simply create a smurf and go to town and avoid the the players in my skill completely. I'd even throw some money at the game in order to get past the grinding, and further my enjoyment of taking advantage of the lesser skilled players safely hidden behind an unknown name.

So, again, I'm not sure their problem is directly causing my problem. I think they help cause my problem by making matches further unbalanced than they should be.

Did you read his post?

Dave is the OP... (In both meanings in this case)

Edited by RedVan, 24 March 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[LRod]

At the same time MMR blocking might be able to preserve your perception of "fun", it also blocks some players - both high and low - from enjoying their perception of "fun". Just be aware that any way you slice this, not everyone gets to have their way.

Agreed, so in the interest of not just fair play for everyone, but also to encourage the continued development (life) of the game; whom should the system favor?  A very small cadre of HIGHLY experienced players that tend to (not throwing rocks here...just pointing out the obvious) discourage very inexperienced players, or should the game cater to a broader spectrum of lower ranked players...in particular NEW players that will encourage other NEW players to get involved and keep the game going.  If it is indeed true that there is a finite size that the player base can grow to - due to the small niche appeal of this type of game - maybe there are other aspects of game participation or types of game modes that can be set aside specifically for the elite tier of players.  Something like a competetive league of dedicated players that meet at specified dates/times with streaming available for others to watch the match, or the ability to add elite players on a scheduled basis to matches that request them, or something similar to professional sporting seasons that end in a tournament and ultimately a final determining match with actual cash incentives (paid out by Reloaded Games) to the winners. 

[JeffMagnum]

Agreed, so in the interest of not just fair play for everyone, but also to encourage the continued development (life) of the game; whom should the system favor?  A very small cadre of HIGHLY experienced players that tend to (not throwing rocks here...just pointing out the obvious) discourage very inexperienced players, or should the game cater to a broader spectrum of lower ranked players...in particular NEW players that will encourage other NEW players to get involved and keep the game going.  If it is indeed true that there is a finite size that the player base can grow to - due to the small niche appeal of this type of game - maybe there are other aspects of game participation or types of game modes that can be set aside specifically for the elite tier of players.  Something like a competetive league of dedicated players that meet at specified dates/times with streaming available for others to watch the match, or the ability to add elite players on a scheduled basis to matches that request them, or something similar to professional sporting seasons that end in a tournament and ultimately a final determining match with actual cash incentives (paid out by Reloaded Games) to the winners. 

 

TPG is basically an unofficial version of the league you're describing. Also, cpnjosh said that enhancing competitive play is going to be something the new devs seriously look into, so I can't imagine them wanting to piss off high-level players by barring them from virtually every single match.

 

And I know this isn't a common situation, but what do you suggest I do? I love playing the game, but due to having a terrible rural internet connection at the moment, I can't until around 1:00 am or so unless I want to deal with 500 ping. My MMR is sitting at a little under 2700 right now and would likely be higher if I was able to play this account when I'm usually on. Should I just quit entirely? I obviously can't compete in tournaments/leagues, plus I doubt I'd be added to games if there wasn't anyone else online to balance me out. 

 

If I could get into servers with this account I would, and I'd probably go Battletech every single game. Since I can't, I have no choice but to use CRT or the trial mechs, all of which are fairly powerful right now. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 24 March 2015 - 07:30 PM.

[RedVan]

I think you need to re read Daves post and take a look at what he is wanting.


The current range is (+/- 400). The above scenario should NEVER happen in any case. Dave wants even less of a restriction and open access to more players. If that increase in access ever happens, and his MMR climbs higher he'll be in the same position he's in now, and want a greater range again. The situation is never ending.

You asked me for a solution and I've thought about it. The matchmaking system needs to take into account the +/- 400 range for every player in the lobby and make sure that every player does not exceed that range compared to each other, not just the average of the lobby.

For example, if a 2700 player is in a match, the best players for that player to play against are in the range of 2300-3100. As long as there are no players below 2300, there is no problem. The issue arises when you have very high and very lower players and a huge differential in MMR in a match. I've seen in a single match where the average was 2050, and a 2700 player was playing with or against a 1700 player. http://imgur.com/FRYKFw3 One of those players did not belong, which one would you say was more out of line? The one that was playing up 300 or the one that was playing down 700?


So heres my proposition, you make a restricted requirement that is the floor(MAXMMR -400) and ceiling(MINMMR +400) This way there is no condition where a player is above or below the acceptable range of +/-400 NO MATTER WHAT.

Does that look like it would solve both our issues? Yes or No, and why?



Who?

OMG.
Did YOU read DAVES post...

Edited by RedVan, 24 March 2015 - 07:38 PM.

[Odinous]

Just don't pretend that you're not, and that it's not a motivating factor behind your constant complaining.

I don't,to be honest even after i stopped looking at it,i enjoy games even more:

1.i don't try to die,but if i do i will still use a mech for fun,and not getting one that could possibly give me the win against the same opponent the next time

2.Possibly my mmr dropped but i still find games quite easily and still have tons of fun.

 

Anyway,we all know that the problem high mmr player got is only due to low population,but instead of stomping new players,i would suggest next time try and help em,explain some game mechanics,and let em find the rest by themselves.Few months ago i made some friends ,only cause i gave up 2 mins to explain em how to dodge,when to boost etc etc,many of them are great players now.And...we all know that when the game will be fixed,and when the game has new content we will have few veteran players back,and i hope many new ones.

 

P.s. that "newbie" title on the new forums is killing me...after 2+ years?COME OOON 

Edited by Odinous, 24 March 2015 - 07:52 PM.

[LRod]

TPG is basically an unofficial version of the league you're describing. Also, cpnjosh said that enhancing competitive play is going to be something the new devs seriously look into, so I can't imagine them wanting to piss off high-level players by barring them from virtually every single match.

 

And I know this isn't a common situation, but what do you suggest I do? I love playing the game, but due to having a terrible rural internet connection at the moment, I can't until around 1:00 am or so unless I want to deal with 500 ping. My MMR is sitting at a little under 2700 right now and would likely be higher if I was able to play this account when I'm usually on. Should I just quit entirely? I obviously can't compete in tournaments/leagues, plus I doubt I'd be added to games if there wasn't anyone else online to balance me out. 

 

If I could get into servers with this account I would, and I'd probably go Battletech every single game. Since I can't, I have no choice but to use CRT or the trial mechs, all of which are fairly powerful right now. 

I hear ya, man.  I really do and this is a crappy but unavoidable situation that was bound to happen.  The older vets have been playing this game for a very long time, and their skill level was bound to grow beyond the constraints of the player base.  I find this current situation to be similar to the one Netflix found itself in, while using their original disc model, and not the current streaming model.  Customers that had a propensitiy to watch a lot of movies, over time found themselves having to wait longer and longer to get new release movies, while new accounts were given priority.  I was one of those individuals left feeling frustrated that I had been with Netflix since damn near the begining, and because I watched a lot of movies (I too live in a very rural area without decent options), I found myself getting passed over in favor of appealing to the newer members.  Netflix's justification - I called them several times to complain - was that they needed to provide the best experience to new members in order to encourage them to stick around, and that if they didn't the business model would not be sustainable if it only catered to high usage customers like myself. 

 

Instead of tearing at each other, we should all be focusing on two objectives: encourage fair play to keep the game going for now (most of us weathered the dev blackout and this should be a minor inconvience compared to that), and we should unify our thoughts and present them to Cap'n Josh for priority in development.  This problem was in the making...it was going to happen...the development team is going to have to fix this eventually...NOW is the time to focus our creativity and press the devs for a solution by giving them a well thought out solution that just needs to be implemented.

[JeffMagnum]

There are two main issues with that: 1. MMR becomes less and less meaningful as a measurement of skill the higher than 2400 or so it goes, so a lot of people would be inappropriately barred from games, and 2. that'd still effectively keep high-MMR players from doing anything at all due to the low high-level population. Dave is likely the best current AR/SMC+TOW player in the game, and his MMR is (lol) 2938. The difference between him and an excellent 2500 MMR AR/SMC+TOW player is nowhere near as large as the difference between a 1600 player and a 2050 player or a 2000 player and a 2450 one. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 25 March 2015 - 01:25 PM.

[RedVan]

There's a really easy fix:  If no servers within 500 MMR, let a person join the next highest MMR server with an opening.

 

There needs to be a balance between shielding the noobs and letting good players play.

 

 

And to get to my point which you never caught on to SS:

Dave doesn't enjoy pub stomping.  Had you read his OP, you'd have found that out.

 

 

Honestly, I didn't enjoy it much at all which is why I quickly left after it was over.  I felt way out of my league like always when I see those names and yes my MMR did suffer further helping my unenjoyment.  People have a different perception of what fun is.  Also the performance of the server was horrible, I noticed some jitteriness that I've not ever seen before, and I even played on the old 32 man servers (I even remember a 64 man one) on a crappier machine with the old HUD.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I agree on that.  Their problem is the lack of other players in their skill level being available at unpopular times, right?  When they organize and collaborate they don't suffer the issues finding matches.  The issues are when there are no other high skilled players around for them to play against.  

 

I don't have a problem finding people closer to my skill level at any time, so why is it acceptable for them to play down 700 MMR and further boost their MMR while doing it?  Is it acceptable for me to get into a room thats 700 MMR lower and stomp on the them?  If I wanted to pummel people that were much less skilled than me, I'd simply create a smurf and go to town and avoid the the players in my skill completely.  I'd even throw some money at the game in order to get past the grinding, and further my enjoyment of taking advantage of the lesser skilled players safely hidden behind an unknown name.

 

So, again, I'm not sure their problem is directly causing my problem.  I think they help cause my problem by making matches further unbalanced than they should be.

 

You don't have a problem finding games, because your MMR isn't remotely close to daves.  So why is it acceptable for them to play in lower MMR servers?  So that they can play at all.  They're not doing it to "boost their MMR".  They're just doing it to play the dam game.  They don't give a fuzzy bunny about their MMR.  Sure, they brag about it here and there, but ultimately, they're not seeking out low MMR games to achieve the highest.  They're smart enough to know MMR isn't that great an indicator of anything.

 

So why do they smurf?  Because they cannot use their main account.  They would prefer to use their main account because, and this may come as a surprise to you, they have more stuff unlocked on it, giving them more options to have fun with.

[Anichkov3]

I have always believed that the following ranges MMR:

3 star = �     0...150

2 star = � 150...300

1 star = � 300...500

0 star = � over  500

 

If I'm wrong please give real range. Please Ashfire908.

Edited by Anichkov3, 24 March 2015 - 11:38 PM.

[Nept]

MMR is an indicator of skill, you all can deny it, but it is a ranking.  Hell Ashfire even spent time working on a leaderboard so all of you can compare your ranks, don't try to make up some excuse that it means nothing to anyone, especially you Nept.  

 

MMR's a rating system for matchmaking purposes, not a rank or a race to the highest number.  Now you often claim Dave's playing only for his MMR, but it seems (and this isn't the first time you've written something similar) that you're every bit as concerned with your own MMR. 

 

Honestly, I don't care that you're both watching your MMR progression.  Just don't pretend that you're not, and that it's not a motivating factor behind your constant complaining.

 

My point (which I've underlined above) wasn't that noone cared about MMR progression. As for the "especially you Nept" bit, it's worth noting that myself - along with every Omni member asides from Xacius, Dave, and hestoned - have deliberately lowered our ranking in order to more easily join games.  Now you may not like that we did that, but you'll have a hard time navigating around that point to argue that I care about MMR.

 

That being said, your conduct through this thread has been better than I would've expected, save for a smarmy, passive-aggressive start.  You may not care about my opinion on your behaviour, but it's nice to see regardless.

 

I will mention that you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge (or even consider) the perspectives of others while acting confused when they do not immediately adopt yours.  The issue I indicated earlier - removing the conditional from a conditional statement - is one example, and we can see it again in your latest post: "I keep seeing all the high tier players saying they want to play the game, but all I keep seeing them say is they want to play weaker players." 

 

That's all you keep seeing because it's all you want to see.  People are discussing your suggestions (and doing so politely), so I'd suggest waiting a bit before assuming everyone's attempting to avoid your points.

Edited by Nept, 25 March 2015 - 12:56 AM.

[Anichkov3]

I can offer a partial solution to your problem. Essence of the problem is that creating a game, your game can not join the other players. Players with over 2,100 MMR strong enough and experienced pilots. You just need to increase for these players (MMP over 2,100), the upper range for servers with 1 star. Ie get 1600 <MMR (=2100) <3100

[RedVan]

I disagree with your point #1.  Please provide me some examples of how it becomes less meaningful the higher you get.  In order for your MMR to grow you have to have a majority of points in the match.  How does that become less meaningful over time if you can constantly achieve that goal?

 

If theres a game for them to join, there is a game for them to join.  Its as simple as that.  You asked for suggestions, I gave you an idea, is it better than the current system that fails when taking the average MMR of a server?  I don't see any of you offering any suggestions except unlock the flood gates.

 

Something that you've said caught my attention, since Daves skill is no where near as large as the difference of a 1600 to 2050 player or a 2000 and a 2450 player, why should he be allowed to play against a 2000 or a 2050 player?   You've said his skill outweighs them, so its a pure win situation.

 

I keep seeing all the high tier players saying they want to play the game, but all I keep seeing them say is they want to play weaker players.  I don't ever see them saying they want to play more players of their own skill.  Why is that?  Organize more, setup play dates on teamspeak with your fellow high tier country club members.

 

 

I said this before, the best match is NOT the first server that has an open spot for that player.  That just tips the balance of one team in the server drastically, one team has an unstoppable player and the other team cannot compete.  Had you read my earlier posts which you accuse me of not doing, you would of seen I posted an example of the best condition where 2 players of similar skill are added to the match at the same time to contradict each other.  Thanks for following along, I appreciate being forced to repeat myself.

 

I disagree, and I speak from personal experience.  I do not think you qualify to make a statement on behalf of what Dave enjoys.  Let him speak for himself.  His original post mentions nothing of the sort.

 

 

 

So because my MMR is no where closed to Daves I don't have a say on who I think he should prey on, ... I mean play against?  Again, I've been stuck in matches with and against him.   I didn't enjoy it.  I'm sorry that I didn't enjoy it, and I'm sorry that I don't want anyone else to experience what I've experienced.  I don't know how you all think that its an enjoyable situation for you to waltz into a lobby and completely sweep up everyone so nonchalantly.  You say that they are not doing it to boost their MMR, but that is exactly what the effect is of them placing first in every game they play in is it not?

 

If they want to just play the damn game as you say, then why do we have stats, or MMR, or points in every match?  They do not want to play, they want to win at any cost.

 

MMR is an indicator of skill, you all can deny it, but it is a ranking.  Hell Ashfire even spent time working on a leaderboard so all of you can compare your ranks, don't try to make up some excuse that it means nothing to anyone, especially you Nept.  

Well, there aren't necessarily always going to be 2 high MMR players to match vs eachother...  so the highest MMR server with an opening IS the best option.  No way around that.  Does it tip the balance?  Of course it does.  Nobody is denying that.  But, people want to play the game, not stare at the browser or MM queue all day...  That's a far less fun game to play.  Anyway, yes, I did read your posts, I am quite aware of your stance on it, and I also know it doesn't quite work that easily.  If 2 high MMR players are queue'd, then absolutely put them on the server that allows them to be pitted against each other...

 

I can say what I said about Dave, because I speak with him every day, and he's told me so.  But if you really want him to come in and say "It's boring playing against scubs", I'm sure he'll oblige!  But you could have figured that out by reading his OP!

 

 

So, why do people smurf? Well, speaking from firsthand experience, I smurf because I can't manually join a single game. I just want to have some fun dammit, and fun to me isn't being limited to a CRT for a dozen hours of play, and yet because of the current matchmaking system, my main account is forced to auto join which can take 5+ minutes. More often than not, it places me with players who are stuck in the very low mmr bracket (Sub 1200) who also have trouble joining games. Through some simple observation using the hawken server app (made by Shadeness), I have noted that players are only able to manually join rooms that are 500+/- your rounded mmr (ie. 2520 mmr is considered 2550 in the app/ingame).

 

Where does he say he smurfs to "stomp noobs"?  All I see is him complaining that the MM system puts him against shitty players.  Since he's complaining about being put vs shitty players, how could you possibly come to the conclusion that he enjoys stomping noobs?

 

I for one have always been against MMR.  I think MM systems are stupid and don't really do much.  The MM system of Hawken does an OK job of separating players into about 3 tiers.  That does help a little with keeping high skill players out of low skill matches... But that's about the extent of what MM should do.

 

Guess what, I know dave enough to know he would want to win no matter what even if MMR never existed.  So MMR has nothing to do with him wanting to win.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

I think a good suggestion would be a background script that scans servers during games for high mmr players and builds a hypothetical, balanced matchup. Once this hypothetical matchup is built, it creates a lobby and pulls the players from their matches and drops them in the lobby.

There are implementation details to consider, like how and when to ask for player consent, opt in and opt out flags, and algorithm efficiency, but I think my idea would serve the Hawken community well. A point to keep in mind is that Hawken already has a drop-in-drop-out feel to it and this sort of solution would simply make the best out of an unfavorable situation.

Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 25 March 2015 - 02:09 AM.

[IareDave]

  My intention is to figure out a solution, one where the high tier players can play and one where lower skilled players in my group can play without the fear of some 360noscope MLG pro entering the lobby and cleaning house and wiping the floor with ded bodies.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is your solution: If two players queue for a siege match, both 2700+ mmr, then the system should place them in a server together. So players want to join a team based siege match, a mode largely based around coordination and objective based farming of EU, and you believe the right fix is to stuff two players into this server? In case you aren't aware, two players pitted against each other is a called a duel and I'm sure if that's what they wanted they would have joined a private fight club server. 

 

Secondly, and this is an argument you have continuously made through the old forums, the reddit, and even now, is that you somehow believe a high ranking player will completely destroy the balance of a game. You're not totally incorrect. If I were to join a 2000 server with both teams at 10 kills, whatever team I join will win. This is true, I joined late, and thus, the matchmaking system wasn't able to properly balance the game. This is an issue that happens at all levels of play, and is not a restricted case of x top tier ruining y game. 

I can promise you, that if my main account joins a room that is say an avg. of 2100, and the game is still in the lobby phase trying to balance the teams - it will be one hell of a balanced game. I have never gone through the balancer with a full lobby of players, with none of them leaving/joining, and have it not be a very close game - the type of game that is not decided because of one extremely high mmr player.

 

Ultimately, your distaste for high mmr players comes down to the fact that you know you are not better than them, and you dislike these players of high skill ruining the perfectly balanced game that you seem to want every single time you play. I can tell you this, my best practice has been when the opposing team has an extra player, or when I know the opposing team has a smurf and the balance has been tilted in their favor. I understand some people don't care for this, but I've been a competitive gamer for years, so if an opportunity is given to me to improve, then I will take it.

Edited by IareDave, 25 March 2015 - 05:10 AM.

[RedVan]

Dammat Dave, I cannot like your post due to quotas :(

 

But you may want to consider ensuring SS that mopping the floor with low skill players isn't your idea of a fun game.  He's quite adamant that you simply join low MMR games just to get your rocks off destroying everyone lol

[IareDave]

Dammat Dave, I cannot like your post due to quotas :(

 

But you may want to consider ensuring SS that mopping the floor with low skill players isn't your idea of a fun game.  He's quite adamant that you simply join low MMR games just to get your rocks off destroying everyone lol

Then clearly he doesn't know the fact that the gaining and loss of mmr is determined by the mmr of the players in the match. So yes, i love boring myself to death against playing noobs knowing fullheartedly that I gain no mmr. 

[Nept]

Keep it civil if he's being civil, gents.  I'll take a look at the proposed system later.

[MomOw]

My 2 cents (sorry for double posting)

 

 

Great post to read and great feedback.

 

Before re-balancing stuff or adding content I think that a lot can be done with just some tweak to how servers work (I'll only speak about EU servers as I play on them, and I'll share a piece of my ~450 hours of gaming experience).

 

I mostly play TDM, when I'm addicted to hawken I play 20 min of  coopTDM on the morning (6.30 -> 7 am), then I'll mostly play during saturday and sunday.

On saturday (and sunday) I always check herokuapp before logging, but servers are quite empty until 1 p.m, so when I start playing on 10 a.m I log either to a coopTDM or the Critical Assist server when it was up.

I tend to stay in the server I'm in, and accept TDM invite from other players when the server MMR is too high or too low.

It happens (very rarely) that I join siege, but it last too long and I don't feel comfortable.

 

IMHO what could increase my gaming experience in hawken is to just modify the way you queue and wait for servers.

 

Let's assume that only a few game modes are "competitive modes", the other modes being "waiting room" where you grind HC even if you leave.

Then :

- synchronize the servers of the competitve modes to help MM do it's work and deal with all servers at the same time.

- make the match maker switch player from one server to another to balance team, and ask player to leave while giving them ticket to join as soon as a balanced match comes up (and give some HC reward or sort of stuff)

- make the match maker have more servers used rather than a few filled up : for example instead of 3 crowded server with 12 people, you can have 2 servers of 8 people and 2 servers of 10 people, which means that players that just log-in have a chance to join a game.

- add a ticket system that a player can request while playing a not competitive mode, when the MM finds enough players requesting tickets to rebalances it sends invite.

- changes bot destruction and some deathmatch servers to fill the role of "waiting room" (as coopTDM can be right now).

 

I think that they should be 3 types of deathmatch servers :

- 1vs1 (5 minutes) for dueling with spectators

- endless waiting room (24 players) where you grind HC for each kills while waiting for a siege or a TDM

- private server playground where you can test whatever mode you want (racing in frontline, all techies, all Fred, etc)

 

[Superkamikazee]

Dave makes a lot of good points, but how much is this matchmaking issue or a player population issue?

I don't care how good your matchmaking algorithm is, without a huge pool of player to pick from, more than likely you're going to have a lot of unbalanced games. If the player base grows significantly, 1000+ concurrent, matchmaking may not even be an issue anymore.