160 replies to this topic

[Pleasure_Mortar]

I figured that there's a skillwall at 1800 MMR, at least for me, and I want some input from the community if this is a valid point or just me.

 

I have been bumping back and forth from 1765 to 1805 for a while now, whereas the ascend to those numbers was pretty linear.

From what I read in the forum, at 1800 your considered above averag, it seems to be a certain breaking point and I wonder what this is based on. Especially since 1800 seems to be a sort of limit for me currently.

 

One thing I noticed is that, often matches rated 3 stars now consist of one or two high MMR players (2200+) and a bunch of >1500 players. IMO this has something to do with the small player base and the current match making. So there could be something like a wall due to the composition of low and high MMRs that naturally reach a plateau at around 1800.

 

Besides the composition of the matches when I go one on one with a slightly better player I noticed that, compared to lower ranked games in the past, I don't really improve. The opponents movement seems a lot more random, but I think the quite opposite is true, my movement in contrast IS a lot more random and I'm kind of desperate not to get hit. Despite my randomness I get a lot more hits.

Is my brain just too slow to comprehend whats going on or is there something like a technique to fight one on one (despite dodging and trying to anticipate when the secondary is fired) that becomes essential at 1800+?

[crockrocket]

Breaking walls for me, after bottoming our sub 1400 (back when starting mmr was 1500): 1450, 1500, 1600, 1800, 1900 (only passed that one briefly lol, which means I only broke the MMR wall, not the skill wall).

 

But yes, 1800 is a big un. Regardless of my mmr, I consider myself an 1800 - 1900 level player, I think those that play with or against me frequently will agree. When you can really break the 1800 mark, you understand the game. Maybe you can't always execute, but you know what it takes to be good. For me post 1800 (tbh my current mmr is sub 1800) what I'm lacking is the ability to keep my head in the game enough to A. do what I need to  B. predict my opponents movements and C. aim. Now, if you are trying to improve, hang out in the Officially Unofficial Hawken Teamspeak (ts5.gameservers.com:9152) whenever possible. Beyond that, I highly recommend that you join a clan. Clans are in my experience the best way to learn. Personally of course I recommend TDM, but depending on your region and preferences there are plenty of clans to join. Also play DM, it really helps.

Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 11 October 2015 - 04:49 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

DO random stuff. That's how I learn. Or take a break and come back after ~ 1 month. Technician with detonator? Why not!?

[Siamenis]

I've been around since Closed Beta 1 and I still wallow somewhere under 1900 mmr, playing daily about two to four matches. Rising to that point was rather quick, only to have reached a grinding halt at this point. Problem probably lies in the consistency of aiming, but otherwise I consider myself above average when it comes to momevent and situational awareness. I don't mind, really. I got here for the adrenaline-charged combat and unique feel of this game, something that leaves one wanting these days...

[Shoutaxeror]

Dueling with a greater pilot is also really nice to learn. Ask for feedback, and once you understand why you were killed, you can think about how to avoid the killing. And then, practice.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

I think I'm already trying unsual stuff from a basic hawken perspective.

I got from 1300 MMR to 1750 in a predator.

Favorite mechs are Predator, EOC infiltrator, Raider (currently trying out EOC Raider) and the not so uncommon zerker, I really hate the assault.

 

When I do random moves I have difficulties bringing them together to something I can work with. Sometimes I feel more confused than the enemy�

 

I thought about joining a clan as well, but I'm way to inconsistent with the time I spend in Hawken to be a reliable clan member.

When it's time for Hawken it's time for Hawken. Sometimes I don't know 5 minutes in advance that I'm gonna play and I like that freedom

Also I play a lot late at night. Something between 11:00 PM - 3:00 AM.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

Dueling with a greater pilot is also really nice to learn. Ask for feedback, and once you understand why you were killed, you can think about how to avoid the killing. And then, practice.

Good point. Ususally I'm rather analytic, I don't know why it never crossed my mind to analyize a fight.

[crockrocket]

I thought about joining a clan as well, but I'm way to inconsistent with the time I spend in Hawken to be a reliable clan member.

When it's time for Hawken it's time for Hawken. Sometimes I don't know 5 minutes in advance that I'm gonna play and I like that freedom

Also I play a lot late at night. Something between 11:00 PM - 3:00 AM.

That's not gonig to be an issue for most current clans (at least not NA - I can't speak for EU). TDM has a few members that fit that bill, but we still love and support them. I know THC is similarly casual regarding participation.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

I had a bar at 1900, and changed computers and networks, ISP, and got better.  I think that improving the gaming equipment/internets helped some.

 

Really, it comes down to making sense of the map, where everyone is.  IMO, that can carry you to 2100, when you position and 'vulture' correctly.  Along the way you learn some basic skills:

• Never boost around corners
• Always land the first shot
• The first shot to hit MUST be your secondary
• Always command-detonate your ordinance (HEAT and EOC pucks are obvious exceptions.  Some pred mine traps are left to lie)
• Never be the focus of fire; try to keep an enemy between you and his friends
• 90% of your time should be understanding the radar information presented to you so you can do the things I've written above
• Know what puts you on radar, and don't do those things, unless you are baiting.
• Use walls and cover, use your other teammates, use the enemy's patterns
• Know when to fold 'em, when to walk away and know when to run

You probable think you know these things, but not the way a 2100-level player does.  When you lose to him because of 'one last shot' you didn't have, it was probably because he got the first shot in - knowing where you were because he does all this better.

 

The next wall will be 2100+  Here, you need to make predictions, know the maps, know your enemy's capability and put ordnance where he may go; you need to be right more often than not.  Here, you need to have learned every dirty trick that could be played on you, and become unpredictable by recognizing when it's time to evade, spring the trap (without you in it), or use a teammate/enemy to foil the play.    This is where the 1v1 gods crush you, and teams made of these skilled players can remove all your options, and enfilade you with focus fire before you can escape.  If you recognized the situation could turn on you, you would do something different, preferably that maximizes your ability to kill/trap the enemy.

 

I got north of 2200 by using speed and mobility (scout) to isolate players and force 1v1's where I've scrubbed the first 90dmg or more from them with the first shot - from someplace they can't predict my next move from.  Using other mechs just makes this meta-game play out slower.

 

HTH, and YMMV, this was my experience

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

I left out 'muscle memory': practice and repetition until the movement and aim are 'twitch-instinctual'.  Sorry...

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Don't forget to quit every match that becomes apparent won't help your mmr, yes even if it's a great match. Fun and a great time be damned.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Don't forget to quit every match that becomes apparent won't help your mmr, yes even if it's a great match. Fun and a great time be damned.

 

 

You gotta figure it out within 2 minutes, or it will count in your MMR.  Usually negatively, if you leave, since you'll be at the bottom of the score/min ranking.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

I had a bar at 1900, and changed computers and networks, ISP, and got better.  I think that improving the gaming equipment/internets helped some.

 

Really, it comes down to making sense of the map, where everyone is.  IMO, that can carry you to 2100, when you position and 'vulture' correctly.  Along the way you learn some basic skills:

• Never boost around corners
• Always land the first shot
• The first shot to hit MUST be your secondary
• Always command-detonate your ordinance (HEAT and EOC pucks are obvious exceptions.  Some pred mine traps are left to lie)
• Never be the focus of fire; try to keep an enemy between you and his friends
• 90% of your time should be understanding the radar information presented to you so you can do the things I've written above
• Know what puts you on radar, and don't do those things, unless you are baiting.
• Use walls and cover, use your other teammates, use the enemy's patterns
• Know when to fold 'em, when to walk away and know when to run

You probable think you know these things, but not the way a 2100-level player does.  When you lose to him because of 'one last shot' you didn't have, it was probably because he got the first shot in - knowing where you were because he does all this better.

 

The next wall will be 2100+  Here, you need to make predictions, know the maps, know your enemy's capability and put ordnance where he may go; you need to be right more often than not.  Here, you need to have learned every dirty trick that could be played on you, and become unpredictable by recognizing when it's time to evade, spring the trap (without you in it), or use a teammate/enemy to foil the play.    This is where the 1v1 gods crush you, and teams made of these skilled players can remove all your options, and enfilade you with focus fire before you can escape.  If you recognized the situation could turn on you, you would do something different, preferably that maximizes your ability to kill/trap the enemy.

 

I got north of 2200 by using speed and mobility (scout) to isolate players and force 1v1's where I've scrubbed the first 90dmg or more from them with the first shot - from someplace they can't predict my next move from.  Using other mechs just makes this meta-game play out slower.

 

HTH, and YMMV, this was my experience

Those points are new to me, but of course the make perfect sense. I think here's where I can really improve.

"Growing up" with a Predator I think I know those things quite well, altought there's still room for improvement.

Technically I know this, but practically the hunting fever gets me way too often and I rush in. Especially when I'm not in a Predator.

 

Thanks so much for the detailed post!

[Pleasure_Mortar]

You gotta figure it out within 2 minutes, or it will count in your MMR.  Usually negatively, if you leave, since you'll be at the bottom of the score/min ranking.

Interesting point. But why not stay in the match to just train and improve and when things become more natural focusing more on the MMR?

Is there a benefit in quitting bad matches besides the direct effect on MMR?

[Amidatelion]

Go find better players to play with. Make friends with them. Convince them to 1v1 you. Die a lot.

 

Record yourself. Watch yourself fuzz up, try to figure out what you did wrong. Watch how your opponent killed you. How they positioned themselves. 

 

Play more mechs. I started with Predator and assumed I was the fuzzy bunny. I wasn't. It's a terrible mech to learn on. Play the Assault. Play Brawler. Hell, play the Reaper. Always consider your positioning. Always have or be positioning for a shot and always have a way out.

 

When was the last time you checked your radar? The answer should be right now and again when this sentence finishes. Learn corner play from this. If you get good with radar and environmental sounds you'll be able to kill people you never see. 

 

Learn to aim.

 

War Wednesdays and Ultra-violent Wednesdays are good places to find better players to die to, because where you're at, you have plenty of scrubs to teach you absolutely nothing. You've got to push yourself. And die a lot.

[kaiserschmarrn_]

2 things:

 

1. Your equipment. At a certain point your mouse, keyboard and system just can't bring you any further. Make sure you have decent stuff to play with.

 

2. Challenge. Make absolute sure that you are playing with top notch players whenever you can. I'm always open to teaching people about the game and helping them out. Shoot me a freind req in game @ kaiserschmarrn_ and I can show you the ropes of high tier play(mechs, playstyles, builds, movement, strategy and tips).

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Interesting point. But why not stay in the match to just train and improve and when things become more natural focusing more on the MMR?

Is there a benefit in quitting bad matches besides the direct effect on MMR?

 

 

I don't actually advocate quitting matches if you're still learning.  If you're in a match below your MMR, and you're getting out-teamed or worse, decide to leave quickly.  This is only if you care about MMR as the number, and not learning how to evade the focus of a stomp with the match.

 

There is stuff to be learned while getting stomped.  I have turned meany deathballs into megakills (six or more within 10 seconds of each kill).  It took about ten months of being stomped to start to figure it out; how to move in the middle of the firefight, who to shoot and how to do it.  I don't think I can easily explain this other than to say it's synthesis of everything, including movement and twitch - when I'm in this zen-like state, I don't see crosshairs and the screen is out of focus; the enemies die, and I'm amazed at all the orbs around me when the shooting stops.

 

I honestly think I play the game to get out of the cerebral stuff and into the zen.  It takes a LOT of practice with the cerebral parts and the muscle/twitch parts.  Getting that practice means getting stomped... a lot.  This is what the skilled players telling you to play the best players you can is trying to get you to: where you start to pick it all up and put it together at a level higher than before. 

 

This is why I can't quit Hawken, actually.

[KarlSchlag]

I AM THE DEVIL!!

Spoiler

[DieselCat]

I've been around since Closed Beta 1 and I still wallow somewhere under 1900 mmr, playing daily about two to four matches. Rising to that point was rather quick, only to have reached a grinding halt at this point. Problem probably lies in the consistency of aiming, but otherwise I consider myself above average when it comes to momevent and situational awareness. I don't mind, really. I got here for the adrenaline-charged combat and unique feel of this game, something that leaves one wanting these days...

 

Landing shots on the move....One of my many problems needing improvement ...... 

 

*+

[DieselCat]

That's not gonig to be an issue for most current clans (at least not NA - I can't speak for EU). TDM has a few members that fit that bill, but we still love and support them. I know THC is similarly casual regarding participation.

 

Thxxx crock...I <3 you guys and girls too ! 

 

*+

[Sylhiri]

 

• The first shot to hit MUST be your secondary

 

As EOC Infiltrator, if you know you can get near a full salvo of pucks on an enemy it's better to use that first. This way you can do pretty much damage as a secondary weapon, now you can use the secondary weapon which is far easier to land damage against dodging enemies due to manual detonation. During which you can be charging another round of EOC pucks. 

 

Learn how to alpha strike.

[Charcoal]

Don 't forget that there's 2 walls to climb over.

 

There's the piloting skill wall AND there's a teamwork wall.

 

I see higher MMR teams regularly lose to cohesive, lower MMR teams, but this may be Siege specific (i only really play Siege)

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

As EOC Infiltrator, if you know you can get near a full salvo of pucks on an enemy it's better to use that first. This way you can do pretty much damage as a secondary weapon, now you can use the secondary weapon which is far easier to land damage against dodging enemies due to manual detonation. During which you can be charging another round of EOC pucks. 

 

Learn how to alpha strike.

 

 

Yes.   This falls into the 'Dirty Tricks' category :D

[Sylhiri]

Yes.   This falls into the 'Dirty Tricks' category :D

 

If your gunna play EOC, you need something to even the odds. Lol

[cbrxx]

Here's the thing about getting better.  As humans we want to win.  When you're playing better players it doesn't feel much like winning even if the team's on top.

 

I don't know either, what it is with the mmr changes but I'm getting into matches with some really high end players often.

 

So you've gotta ask yourself, do you really want to improve and if so why?  Do you really want to get better to get more enjoyment out of the game or are you mostly content just getting the mvp.

 

Me, admittedly I prefer to ride the middle ground which is very hard to find lately.

 

According to a chart I read yesterday, if you're at 1800 mmr you're already in the top 2% of players skill wise but there's a huge gap between the 2%ers and the 1%ers.  When I say huge I mean HUUUUUUUUUUGE!

Edited by cbrxx, 11 October 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[Hyginos]

People have mentioned that a good way to improve is to keep playing against better players. For players under about 2000 MMR the easiest way to do this is to use herokuapp to find the highest ranked server (which is usually right about 2K in my experience, excluding servers that host scrims/matches/duels), and join it. A 2k average server will usually have at least a few 2200+ players in it to bring the average up, and they'll be happy to fight you if you engage them.

[DeeRax]

 

The next wall will be 2100+ 

Yeah, I've been stuck at ~2000-2050 for awhile now, personally. I wasn't stuck at ~1800 for too long (I broke 1900 and 2000 after I joined a clan, actually; it works!).

But I can't seem to figure out how to get to 2100, and beyond.

Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 11 October 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[MomOw]

skillwall depends on player and PC/internet config.

If you are stuck for too long, try to check your ping, video or mouse set-up. if they are OK this is the hardest part because you have to learn how to change the way you play to get better.

[crockrocket]

Interesting point. But why not stay in the match to just train and improve and when things become more natural focusing more on the MMR?

Is there a benefit in quitting bad matches besides the direct effect on MMR?

Yeah don't actually do that, like at all. If you skip all the bad matches you're just fuzzing everyone else over and you haven't actually learned the skills to be above that mmr.

[Kauyon]

I've been stuck at ~1770 for quite some weeks, but given that I'm playing at sub-60FPS on a laptop and I don't have regular enough schedules to get into a clan, I'm fine with that.
I'd personally recommend against going up MMR with an assault, as it can give you bad habits (shooting sustain forever and tanking too much, mostly). At least my experience is that playing raider, scout or vanguard forces me to play better overall, while still being strong enough mechs (I think).
If you want a challenge, go EOC Infil and enjoy having no sustain.
Last tip I can think of is, when the situation goes FUBAR, stay and get some damage on enemies instead of trying to run away (not recommended with A classes). Hopefully some ally will get the kill and you'll get those sweet assist points. And we're here for the points, right?

Edited by Kauyon, 11 October 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[PoopSlinger]

This is how I got mediocre.

1. Use Ethernet cable, WiFi is for scrubs.
2. Play raider and scout
3. Yolodive everyone cuz backing down and running is lame

This is how I've played basically since I started this game.

[ticklemyiguana]

 

Learn how to alpha strike.

 

Learn how to alpha strike mid fight.

[Silverfire]

I'm stuck at floating around 2200-2250, somebody make me gud.

[IareDave]

Play against better players, suck terribly, and then do it again. That's the only real way to learn. there's a deep gameplay experience that the tutorial will not teach (positioning) and learning and copying better players will let you proceed and break plateaus far quickly than just no lifing the game.

[phed]

Yeah, like I use to not be able to kill Dave at all, now I can usually kill him at least once in round (when his back is to me and he's nearly dead already).

Edited by phed, 11 October 2015 - 03:47 PM.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

I played a couple of games tonight and I already saw quite some improvement

Thanks for all the replies.

 

The thing with getting the first shot in and use secondary first is super helpful. Improved my cornerplay as well.

 

My moves were a lot less random and I had a better understanding where my enemy was and what he'd probably try to do.

[HeavyMetalFenix]

Longish post, feel free to skip if you're short on time...

 

Another 1800ish player here. Personally, I found that (for me, maybe not for others) I could get over that wall, but it affected my enjoyment of the game if I kept looking at my MMR. I found myself playing defensively/cautiously, which can be great for TDM - but not so good for Siege/MA, which are what I really enjoy. To get to 2150 MMR I found I had to do the following in the public servers:

 

- Rule #1: Not die, as much as possible, especially to a lower-MMR player

- Abandoning attempts to take AA/missile silos/save a teammate if it meant going in at unfavorable or even equal odds

- Sticking close to higher-skilled players for self-preservation, and letting lower skilled players get isolated/cut off/caught in traps of their own mistakes

- Watch the radar 3/4 of the time, and the very very inside of my targeting reticle while firing 1/4 the time

- If I find myself on a server with players of much lower MMR, kill as many players as rapidly and

   consistantly as possible to keep my MMR from dropping like a rock.

- Avoid using certain weapons for fear of revealing my/our team's position

- Avoid moving anywhere unless it is from cover to cover, or something I can put between me and incoming fire

- Withdraw from matches with ping 100 or greater, or where I had the highest MMR per Scrimbot

- Considered playing in an organized group/team/server, so the collective high MMR pool 'keeps you floating' while

  you learn/observe/are not worrying about your MMR tanking in a public server

- Carry items that can be used for healing myself or my teammates, but mostly myself

- Faced the hard truth that 35-45 fps wasn't cutting it, and upgraded my computer (again) to get 60+ fps

- Spend more time than I felt I was comfortable with to increase an esoteric vague numeric measure of my skill by a few points

- Did I mention? Not die, as much as possible, especially to a lower-MMR player

 

Many with more skill or time in-game may have an easier time with this than I did. 

 

My advice?

 

1) Join a competitive organization with friendly people and learn in an environment more free of the need to WORRY about your MMR dropping. Especially if you're going to chase that MMR number, which will increase faster and more naturally if you are constantly playing with people at a higher level of skill, and who are willing to often critique you (and themselves) in a friendly and helpful manner. It will help you function as a TEAM, which brings the game to a whole new level. You will have much more fun than trying to increase your MMR while only playing in public servers, which becomes more of a grind than fun as you climb past 2000. Get VOIP/TeamSpeak/whatever - way more communication, way easier than trying to type and fight simultaneously.

 

2) Try to stick to TDM, DM, and co-op game modes. Siege and Missile Assault sometimes require you to do things detrimental to yourself (and your MMR) - like drawing enemy fire to lure defenders away from the AA/get them to ignore something your team is trying to do, staying on AA /missile silo while outnumbered and about to die simply to prevent it from launching or to buy time for the rest of the team, blocking/dying to protect a teammate on an EU run, etc. Many high-MMR players are great at any game mode, but I've seen a few who were great at killing other players/not dying but horrible at staying inside the AA ring or moving with the team instead of being the big bad lone wolf.

 

3) Create an alternate account to use where you don't constantly pester Mr. Scrimbot what your MMR is. Use it to try out risky techniques, high-ping servers when your usual hangouts are empty, and game modes and mechs that you're not so hot at. Pressure-free. Play it for fun, not e-peen. Be nice and play at your usual skill level - don't stomp the newbs, don't game the system, and chastise those who do. You'll get to the point where you can play spot-the-smurfs, and who's naughty and who's nice. I created an alt a while ago, to the point that I haven't played on my higher MMR account in almost a year.

 

4) Realize that (just as in real life) there are always going to be some people worse than you, and some better than you - and MMR is not an absolute measurement of skill, or of a person's worth to their team. It can be gamed. Remember that even at 1800 MMR, you are already in the (roughly) top 2%. Repeat that with me. "Top two percent."    *citation needed*

 

http://home.xshade.c...nt/21-days/mmr/

 

My best learning experiences have been when I get stomped by a high-tier player, or watching them do their magic first-hand or on YouTube or Twitch. Some of the best matches are the ones with funny commentary, regardless of skill. The best high-tier players in this game are the ones willing to pass on their wisdom and observations in a helpful, constructive manner. Abusive players make people feel bad about themselves and want to quit the game instead of improving themselves. MMR measures neither of these things. Be sure to thank a player that helped you.

 

5) Read the Help and Guides section of the forums, and watch the videos. If you haven't already.

 

6) Help others new to the game, so that it grows.

 

7) Set your boundaries and goals. How much time are you willing to spend here? At what point does it cease to be fun and become a grind? How high up do you want to climb before you can say "I made it"?

 

Empty servers are no fun. Having an MMR so high that only 0-3 matches are available to you is not fun. Having matches so low on players that you have to sit out to balance the match is no fun.  Being told you are doing something wrong in a derogatory way is not fun. Playing against those using map exploits/aimbot to gain a non-skill based advantage is not fun.

 

The object of the game is to have fun, and helping others out keeps them in the game, hopefully in your server, and hopefully at some point paying real money to keep the servers we all play on up and running. More players=more fun for everyone, more income for the developers, more interest for prospective investors, more Hawken updates, less worrying about the servers going down. 

 

Good Luck, have fun, and share that fun with others!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dorobo]

It might seem random to some... 

 

[crockrocket]

Yeah, like I use to not be able to kill Dave at all,

 

There was this one time I got a 100% kill on dave. I almost quit because I thought I had won Hawken. (but actually it was like heat scout vs me in orblord assault during one of the few times I was on my fuzzing grind. don't worry he buttfuzzy bunnyed me in response) 

Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 11 October 2015 - 11:20 PM.

[HHJFTRU]

Remember that even at 1800 MMR, you are already in the (roughly) top 2%. Repeat that with me. "Top two percent."    *citation needed*

 

I think that the picture is distorted and would be more informative if the accounts that have 1250 MMR were not taken into consideration. Or the accounts that have not reached level 15 (~8-10 hrs playtime?).